Author Topic: C70 Feedback  (Read 19078 times)

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Offline GMK_Andy

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C70 Feedback
« on: Wed, 24 July 2019, 15:39:25 »
The C70 is our compact 70% keyboard designed that was designed by community members. You can read more about that here. If you have any feedback or suggestions regarding the keyboard or future runs leave it here!

« Last Edit: Thu, 25 July 2019, 10:43:05 by GMK_Andy »

Offline RETURNISO

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 24 July 2019, 15:59:34 »
We had rumors of it was planned.. We waited.. We still want it... We need a ISO C70  :p

Offline tobiasvl

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 26 July 2019, 13:45:01 »
I gotta say, the layout is growing on me. ISO and split backspace would be very cool.

And I definitely understand why you felt you had to create your own custom software to program the firmware (for all I know it might even be good!), but are there plans to support QMK too?

Offline fr08

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 10 August 2019, 20:45:35 »
Been waiting for the iso version for a year or so now lol

It's not a quick process with Uniqey is it... In January they said that a Nordic set for https://uniqey.net/detail/index/sArticle/25/sCategory/19 was "under manufacturing already". It's almost as if that wasn't true or something...

Offline Ah_Pook

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 29 August 2019, 16:50:46 »
Where’s the OSX software?

Offline GMK_Andy

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 20 September 2019, 15:42:58 »
Been waiting for the iso version for a year or so now lol

It's not a quick process with Uniqey is it... In January they said that a Nordic set for https://uniqey.net/detail/index/sArticle/25/sCategory/19 was "under manufacturing already". It's almost as if that wasn't true or something...

We are still working on scheduling time to manufacture it. We have been so slammed with other orders and put our vendors before making our own sets. That being said we are already getting a new machine to increase our manufacturing capabilities by 25%, and hopefully get this set made as well.

Offline GMK_Andy

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 20 September 2019, 15:43:47 »
Where’s the OSX software?

I believe our first line of business with the software is to have a web based version available first, then we will work on dedicated downloadable programs if there is interest

Offline Hell-es

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 22 September 2019, 13:35:20 »
when again ? ;)

Offline woodruff

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 23 September 2019, 04:14:17 »
Hello, I'm sure that your c70 is a super high quality keyboard, nevertheless here are my observations.

This c70 layout is only 2cm smaller than a tkl, so the space gain is so small that it is absolutely neglegible. With a tkl layout you have many more keys, and you have some nice gaps on the case / plate that show the beautiful material that you used for the case.

My suggestion for your next keyboard??? Not an improbable full keyboard, not another new and incompatible layout, but I'd suggest a tkl keyboard. MassDrop.com sold 10 thousands tkl keyboards, it's probably their most successful drop for a keyboard. I'd suggest to make a keyboard which is compatible and interchangeable (case and pcb swap), with the massdrop tkl keyboard. How can it be that hard to have some standardization???? Each and every tkl designer uses his own proprietarcy pcb and case, while all 60% keyboards are interchangable. That is insane.
https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-ctrl-mechanical-keyboard

Don't you dare ;-) to use again a proprietary firmware. We have tmk, we have qmk, we have a gui for qmk and you should make a keyboard compatible with that. I'm not going to buy a keyboard which uses your firmware. I hate proprietary firmwares that after one year aren't supported anymore. On drop.com there are a lot of negative comments about your firmware, in stability and in compatibility (does it work with mac, and with linux? do I have to be an administrator to install your firmware, really????). We don't deserve that, not after spending 250 bucks for a keyboard. I hope that I don't sound impolite, but how much does a software developer cost? And how does that impact on the sale price of a keyboard that was sold in 200 pieces only? 10 eur each keyboard? 20? That's a big impact.

Your new keyboard should have adjustable feet. People have different preferences, sometimes we have a chair or a table which can't be tailored to our needs, but the keyboard should allow some flexibility.

If you're going to sell again the c70, you should bundle some extra keycaps to make your doubleshot set usable at least on a tkl (given that a 1u keycap cost less than 0.4 usd, the increment is neglegible).

Please make an iso keyboard, and deliver it from europe, not from the usa and expect us to spend 35% of the original price in import taxes.

Still about the c70, on massdrop I've seen a comment that states that ""1. Bigger space between g & h keys." Does it mean that the g and h switches have a non standard spacing??

About the 100% keyboard sold on uniqey, I can live with all the wrong layouts, but having a de layout is not acceptable. If you gave me an extra z and y, and a scooped f and j, that would completely fix it for me. At least the A-Z keys should be correct, I don't ask anything more than that.

Thanks for being here and for listening to us.

Have a nice day!

« Last Edit: Mon, 23 September 2019, 05:17:05 by woodruff »

Offline cekagekh

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 23 September 2019, 12:00:59 »
If you're going to sell again the c70,

They are selling it again.

Offline Handke

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 07 November 2019, 03:41:39 »
Hello, I'm sure that your c70 is a super high quality keyboard, nevertheless here are my observations.

This c70 layout is only 2cm smaller than a tkl, so the space gain is so small that it is absolutely neglegible. With a tkl layout you have many more keys, and you have some nice gaps on the case / plate that show the beautiful material that you used for the case.

My suggestion for your next keyboard??? Not an improbable full keyboard, not another new and incompatible layout, but I'd suggest a tkl keyboard. MassDrop.com sold 10 thousands tkl keyboards, it's probably their most successful drop for a keyboard. I'd suggest to make a keyboard which is compatible and interchangeable (case and pcb swap), with the massdrop tkl keyboard. How can it be that hard to have some standardization???? Each and every tkl designer uses his own proprietarcy pcb and case, while all 60% keyboards are interchangable. That is insane.
https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-ctrl-mechanical-keyboard

Don't you dare ;-) to use again a proprietary firmware. We have tmk, we have qmk, we have a gui for qmk and you should make a keyboard compatible with that. I'm not going to buy a keyboard which uses your firmware. I hate proprietary firmwares that after one year aren't supported anymore. On drop.com there are a lot of negative comments about your firmware, in stability and in compatibility (does it work with mac, and with linux? do I have to be an administrator to install your firmware, really????). We don't deserve that, not after spending 250 bucks for a keyboard. I hope that I don't sound impolite, but how much does a software developer cost? And how does that impact on the sale price of a keyboard that was sold in 200 pieces only? 10 eur each keyboard? 20? That's a big impact.

Your new keyboard should have adjustable feet. People have different preferences, sometimes we have a chair or a table which can't be tailored to our needs, but the keyboard should allow some flexibility.

If you're going to sell again the c70, you should bundle some extra keycaps to make your doubleshot set usable at least on a tkl (given that a 1u keycap cost less than 0.4 usd, the increment is neglegible).

Please make an iso keyboard, and deliver it from europe, not from the usa and expect us to spend 35% of the original price in import taxes.

Still about the c70, on massdrop I've seen a comment that states that ""1. Bigger space between g & h keys." Does it mean that the g and h switches have a non standard spacing??

About the 100% keyboard sold on uniqey, I can live with all the wrong layouts, but having a de layout is not acceptable. If you gave me an extra z and y, and a scooped f and j, that would completely fix it for me. At least the A-Z keys should be correct, I don't ask anything more than that.

Thanks for being here and for listening to us.

Have a nice day!

Interesting points, yet I see no answer from gmk uniqey...

Offline Handke

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 03 February 2020, 06:10:02 »
Hello, I'm sure that your c70 is a super high quality keyboard, nevertheless here are my observations.

This c70 layout is only 2cm smaller than a tkl, so the space gain is so small that it is absolutely neglegible. With a tkl layout you have many more keys, and you have some nice gaps on the case / plate that show the beautiful material that you used for the case.

My suggestion for your next keyboard??? Not an improbable full keyboard, not another new and incompatible layout, but I'd suggest a tkl keyboard. MassDrop.com sold 10 thousands tkl keyboards, it's probably their most successful drop for a keyboard. I'd suggest to make a keyboard which is compatible and interchangeable (case and pcb swap), with the massdrop tkl keyboard. How can it be that hard to have some standardization???? Each and every tkl designer uses his own proprietarcy pcb and case, while all 60% keyboards are interchangable. That is insane.
https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-ctrl-mechanical-keyboard

Don't you dare ;-) to use again a proprietary firmware. We have tmk, we have qmk, we have a gui for qmk and you should make a keyboard compatible with that. I'm not going to buy a keyboard which uses your firmware. I hate proprietary firmwares that after one year aren't supported anymore. On drop.com there are a lot of negative comments about your firmware, in stability and in compatibility (does it work with mac, and with linux? do I have to be an administrator to install your firmware, really????). We don't deserve that, not after spending 250 bucks for a keyboard. I hope that I don't sound impolite, but how much does a software developer cost? And how does that impact on the sale price of a keyboard that was sold in 200 pieces only? 10 eur each keyboard? 20? That's a big impact.

Your new keyboard should have adjustable feet. People have different preferences, sometimes we have a chair or a table which can't be tailored to our needs, but the keyboard should allow some flexibility.

If you're going to sell again the c70, you should bundle some extra keycaps to make your doubleshot set usable at least on a tkl (given that a 1u keycap cost less than 0.4 usd, the increment is neglegible).

Please make an iso keyboard, and deliver it from europe, not from the usa and expect us to spend 35% of the original price in import taxes.

Still about the c70, on massdrop I've seen a comment that states that ""1. Bigger space between g & h keys." Does it mean that the g and h switches have a non standard spacing??

About the 100% keyboard sold on uniqey, I can live with all the wrong layouts, but having a de layout is not acceptable. If you gave me an extra z and y, and a scooped f and j, that would completely fix it for me. At least the A-Z keys should be correct, I don't ask anything more than that.

Thanks for being here and for listening to us.

Have a nice day!

Interesting points, yet I see no answer from gmk uniqey...

yep

Offline GMK_Andy

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 07 February 2020, 19:42:43 »
Hello, I'm sure that your c70 is a super high quality keyboard, nevertheless here are my observations.

This c70 layout is only 2cm smaller than a tkl, so the space gain is so small that it is absolutely neglegible. With a tkl layout you have many more keys, and you have some nice gaps on the case / plate that show the beautiful material that you used for the case.

My suggestion for your next keyboard??? Not an improbable full keyboard, not another new and incompatible layout, but I'd suggest a tkl keyboard. MassDrop.com sold 10 thousands tkl keyboards, it's probably their most successful drop for a keyboard. I'd suggest to make a keyboard which is compatible and interchangeable (case and pcb swap), with the massdrop tkl keyboard. How can it be that hard to have some standardization???? Each and every tkl designer uses his own proprietarcy pcb and case, while all 60% keyboards are interchangable. That is insane.
https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-ctrl-mechanical-keyboard

Don't you dare ;-) to use again a proprietary firmware. We have tmk, we have qmk, we have a gui for qmk and you should make a keyboard compatible with that. I'm not going to buy a keyboard which uses your firmware. I hate proprietary firmwares that after one year aren't supported anymore. On drop.com there are a lot of negative comments about your firmware, in stability and in compatibility (does it work with mac, and with linux? do I have to be an administrator to install your firmware, really????). We don't deserve that, not after spending 250 bucks for a keyboard. I hope that I don't sound impolite, but how much does a software developer cost? And how does that impact on the sale price of a keyboard that was sold in 200 pieces only? 10 eur each keyboard? 20? That's a big impact.

Your new keyboard should have adjustable feet. People have different preferences, sometimes we have a chair or a table which can't be tailored to our needs, but the keyboard should allow some flexibility.

If you're going to sell again the c70, you should bundle some extra keycaps to make your doubleshot set usable at least on a tkl (given that a 1u keycap cost less than 0.4 usd, the increment is neglegible).

Please make an iso keyboard, and deliver it from europe, not from the usa and expect us to spend 35% of the original price in import taxes.

Still about the c70, on massdrop I've seen a comment that states that ""1. Bigger space between g & h keys." Does it mean that the g and h switches have a non standard spacing??

About the 100% keyboard sold on uniqey, I can live with all the wrong layouts, but having a de layout is not acceptable. If you gave me an extra z and y, and a scooped f and j, that would completely fix it for me. At least the A-Z keys should be correct, I don't ask anything more than that.

Thanks for being here and for listening to us.

Have a nice day!

Hey! Sorry for the slow response.

Lots of insights here, some may be possible, some probably not.

As far as keyboards, we are already well indevelopment on the next one. They take roughly ~2 years to produce from idea to a prototype ready to mass produce for us. Lots of little details and lots of discussions back and forth with a think tank of community members and internally betwen the DE and US divisions. I know how many TKLs Massdrop (and others like WASD, Filco, etc.) have sold, and we are certainly interested in doing a TKL, but we are not really interested in making a "run of the mill" TKL. As you stated, there are A LOT of TKL options out there, and due to our manufacturing standards we will never be the budget option that sells tons and tons of keyboards. We like making interesting, higher end keyboards for sure and that has been our concentration to this point, and will remain that way. Cant say we really have any interest at all in making a TKL like the CTL or CTL Hi Profile.

With milled cases adjustable feet can be difficult. There are enough super creative people doing small run customs that boards with adjustable feet shouldnt be too hard to find! I'm just not sure they will be from us (the Q100 does in fact have them though!)The next board we are working on features a similar design to the C70 case.

I know what the price increase of adding our caps to our keyboard costs. I know people mainly know us for caps, but when we sell keyboards we are selling it as a complete product. Perhaps adding extra caps that match the C70 set (or other standard sets included with keyboards in the future) in the form of a "completionist kit" could be considered though (a kit that would add support for TKL, Tsangan, etc). This would be fairly cheap to cover many boards as users would already have the keys included with the board. I certainly will make note of this. I just don't think inlucing TKL keys in a board like the C70, for example, really would be the best option in this case.

We will be shipping future boards, accessories, and in house designed sets from both US and Germany.

Im not sure if the pictures are odd, or something was not seated correctly with the switches in the picture, but I can assure you there is a perfectly even space between the keys on the C70. I have seen the CAD files.

Thank you for the input. I will point this post out to others in the company to read over as well. I will also look into the layout of keys included with the Q100 and see what options are available there.

Offline Handke

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 21 February 2020, 03:20:37 »
Thank you!

Looking forward for any news from you. And please please stop developing your own firmware or at least make the keyboards compatible with open source tools. We all know that your firmware it won't be developed anymore in a few years, so please make your keyboards compatible witk tmk/qmk.

Offline GMK_Andy

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 25 March 2020, 12:13:34 »
Thank you!

Looking forward for any news from you. And please please stop developing your own firmware or at least make the keyboards compatible with open source tools. We all know that your firmware it won't be developed anymore in a few years, so please make your keyboards compatible witk tmk/qmk.

Thank you for the feedback! We know the firmware is our weak spot and will/have been working very hard in that area on our firmware and looking at other possibilities!

Offline maartenwut

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 26 April 2020, 16:34:53 »
So... I got one from Drop the other day. There is a lot we need to discuss.

The case is really nice, honestly. I couldn't have asked for more on that. The anodizing is beautiful, high quality. I like the rubber feet as well. The switch top removal cutouts are a nice touch.
For stock keycaps, these are the best. Nice doubleshot GMK keycaps that we're used to. I like the colors on those.
On the inside is where things change. The foam that is supplied is a bit dusty - might be because it's two years old, but there are small black pieces of foam everywhere.
Then there's the daughterboard, which can be flipped to have a Micro USB connector instead of USB-C. It makes no sense and seems like a useless feature to me, as there is a nice USB A to USB C cable supplied in the box. However, the pogo pin connection to the main PCB is smart, but a cable would have been fine as that doesn't push the PCB up.
Now, before I go any further, I need to address something. This board was advertised as a "true community custom" and was apparently designed in collaboration with known designers from the community. For some reason though, it's pretty much anti-community. How on earth did this happen?!

The PCB does NOT support QMK firmware! Instead, GMK decided to make their own software - and even that is far from good. It's confusing to me with only two layers to program (afaik..) and selecting a key requires you to scroll through a list of keys. That wouldn't be so bad if the scrolling itself wasn't slowed down. I haven't used it much so I can't say more about that. Did I mention it's not currently available for Mac or Linux?

Upon first glance at the PCB, I was confused, because all the components are on the front, which means you have to desolder every switch to repair something. Speaking of switches... Why was this even offered ONLY with Cherry switches? Cherry switches are one of the least liked switches in this community because they are scratchy. Even Gaterons would have been better. Of course, GMK is related to Cherry, but okay, you could have offered a kit instead, but you didn't. Even worse is that the switches come with diodes in them, which are attached to the PCB. That is fine if they are used, but after fully desoldering the board it seems the diodes in the switches are not electrically connected. Instead, the PCB has SMD diodes on it, also on the top side. Completely useless diodes which only make desoldering this true community custom even harder. Apart from that, the PCB is fine. What I do want to mention though, is how stiff this board is. In its construction it uses spacers between the plate and the PCB, through which a M3 T8 torx screw goes to mount to a standoff in the case. It's your average tray mount, but with a spacer to allow the screw to be on the plate instead of the PCB. Couldn't have made it more stiff. (I personally don't like it, but maybe some people do.)

So in short, case is nice, keycaps are nice, but the PCB sucks and the software to program the board sucks. I'm glad I'm able to design PCBs so I did design a replacement PCB for it yesterday.


Here is an album of the board: https://imgur.com/a/EdCbrGb
« Last Edit: Sun, 26 April 2020, 16:39:36 by maartenwut »

Offline jimboytacos

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 16:30:58 »
Haven't seen your PCB layout, but can it support the traditional 6.25U or 7U spacebar? That 6U spacebar is difficult to find in gmk base kits.
How about support for split backspace?

Offline maartenwut

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 16:36:43 »
Haven't seen your PCB layout, but can it support the traditional 6.25U or 7U spacebar? That 6U spacebar is difficult to find in gmk base kits.
How about support for split backspace?

Due to the case no other layout can be supported. There is a small part removed from the inside bezel for the screw of the stabilizer to fit. That means the only way to do a different space bar size is plate mounted. (Picture here)

I could add split back space support, but what's the point of that when it's almost a tkl?

Let me know what your thoughts are  :)

Offline GMK_Andy

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 19 May 2020, 15:36:09 »
So... I got one from Drop the other day. There is a lot we need to discuss.

The case is really nice, honestly. I couldn't have asked for more on that. The anodizing is beautiful, high quality. I like the rubber feet as well. The switch top removal cutouts are a nice touch.
For stock keycaps, these are the best. Nice doubleshot GMK keycaps that we're used to. I like the colors on those.
On the inside is where things change. The foam that is supplied is a bit dusty - might be because it's two years old, but there are small black pieces of foam everywhere.
Then there's the daughterboard, which can be flipped to have a Micro USB connector instead of USB-C. It makes no sense and seems like a useless feature to me, as there is a nice USB A to USB C cable supplied in the box. However, the pogo pin connection to the main PCB is smart, but a cable would have been fine as that doesn't push the PCB up.
Now, before I go any further, I need to address something. This board was advertised as a "true community custom" and was apparently designed in collaboration with known designers from the community. For some reason though, it's pretty much anti-community. How on earth did this happen?!

The PCB does NOT support QMK firmware! Instead, GMK decided to make their own software - and even that is far from good. It's confusing to me with only two layers to program (afaik..) and selecting a key requires you to scroll through a list of keys. That wouldn't be so bad if the scrolling itself wasn't slowed down. I haven't used it much so I can't say more about that. Did I mention it's not currently available for Mac or Linux?

Upon first glance at the PCB, I was confused, because all the components are on the front, which means you have to desolder every switch to repair something. Speaking of switches... Why was this even offered ONLY with Cherry switches? Cherry switches are one of the least liked switches in this community because they are scratchy. Even Gaterons would have been better. Of course, GMK is related to Cherry, but okay, you could have offered a kit instead, but you didn't. Even worse is that the switches come with diodes in them, which are attached to the PCB. That is fine if they are used, but after fully desoldering the board it seems the diodes in the switches are not electrically connected. Instead, the PCB has SMD diodes on it, also on the top side. Completely useless diodes which only make desoldering this true community custom even harder. Apart from that, the PCB is fine. What I do want to mention though, is how stiff this board is. In its construction it uses spacers between the plate and the PCB, through which a M3 T8 torx screw goes to mount to a standoff in the case. It's your average tray mount, but with a spacer to allow the screw to be on the plate instead of the PCB. Couldn't have made it more stiff. (I personally don't like it, but maybe some people do.)

So in short, case is nice, keycaps are nice, but the PCB sucks and the software to program the board sucks. I'm glad I'm able to design PCBs so I did design a replacement PCB for it yesterday.


Here is an album of the board: https://imgur.com/a/EdCbrGb

QMK -   I've mentioned this before, but will mention it again. We know this is a community favorite, and many of us really like QMK on community boards we have. There problem for right now is this: we need our own software because we also use the same platform for our industrial clients. If we use QMK, even fork it, we must make our code public, and that could be something many of our industrial clients are wary of. We know our software isn't nearly up to the standards we want though, and have been doing a total overhaul to it in the meantime. I've talked to Jack, Skully, MechMerlin about QMK quite a bit, and its not off the table, but for now its just not happening because of a lot of in depth reasons. Again, we know how good it is in terms of features (though definitely not the best for clients without some knowledge of programming boards) so for now we must stick with our own.

Yeah, its an odd layout as well. New layouts come out every day. Some are hits, some are misses. We tried to go with things that have been admired in the community on higher end customs (stepped caps, WKL, etc). Obviously its not perfect, but we are still very happy with how it came out. It is a niche layout, but for some we think it will work very well, and as the layout was presented during the buy we had assumed anyone buying it would be a fan of the layout.

A kit is definitely still an option we are looking into. We couldn't offer more switches because of many reasons with the initial buy (like keeping the options simple with Massdrop to keep the cost down). With MX swtiches there are so so many that anything offered stock will not satisfy everyone, or even close, which is why we are still considering a kit for the future. 

At the  time the daughter board seemd very important, and got much good feedback. When it was being designed a few years ago, USB C was not very common at all, but it was the future, and this was a way of future proofing that connection.

I have passed all of this feedback along to others on the team though, thank you for taking the time to write it all out. :thumb:

Offline Handke

  • Posts: 23
Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 05:15:23 »
Agreed, I'm not going to buy this if there isn't an open source firmware; I don't understand what does this have to do with your own code??? I don't want your code.
There are many brilliant persons here on geekhack that are able to design a pcb from scratch, and you tell me that you can't supply us with an opensource keyboard? This is really impossible to understand.

I've already said that this layout is very strange... Everyone is selling TKL keyboards, and they're a success, and now we have this c70 layout that I don't like at all.

I hope that in the future you can make a tkl layout with an open source firmware.
I wonder if you asked yourself why a keyboard designed by GMK sold way LESS than a a random nice tkl keyboard group buy designed by some keyboard enthusiast that have another job. Take a random keyboard group buy and you'll see that they sell more than your product sold on massdrop. This has to mean something. People here know more about what the community wants than you do.
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 May 2020, 05:17:34 by Handke »

Offline Prelim

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Re: C70 Feedback
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 06:08:04 »
make a new case with a blocker between the arrow cluster, like the KBD67 and many other customs  :thumb:
2x GH60 revC - lubed Linjärs 65g / lubed Gat blacks 65g with SPRIT 5mm acrylic plate | Dolch PAC - lubed vintage blacks 65g | Raptor K1 G80-1890 | Ducky Shine 3 TKL - blacks, white led
Floating on Cherry/GMK caps - White on Black, Classic Beige, Dolch, Olivetti, Alcatel MMK, Hellgrau