KBC keyboard needs your advice

[DryDry]

6、KBC fonts
7、abs\pom\pbt
8、carve my name

[clickclack]

haaha no kiddin =)
Didn't really answer the question though ;P
So many of you are members of that site/forum. How ever did you guys hold it in, haahaaahaa.
Don't tell us you guys got sick of your "Ducky" already. I think this new endevour will be just a wee bit more expensive for ya.

[J888www]

I think the Ducky will stay, maybe this new project is the Plum replacement. Production should be relatively cheap in China and if successful, with good quality and low price, the initial cost will more than worthwhile. Imagine Desktop Systems having mechanical kbds options.....rather than rubber domes.

[DryDry]

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

haaha no kiddin =)
Didn't really answer the question though ;P
So many of you are members of that site/forum. How ever did you guys hold it in, haahaaahaa.
Don't tell us you guys got sick of your "Ducky" already. I think this new endevour will be just a wee bit more expensive for ya.

imsto needs more advices from all over the world ^_^

[chimera15]

DIY KIT YES! Where can I get one then?

[imsto]

when there's a diy kit, I will post it here.

[imsto]

haaha no kiddin =)
Didn't really answer the question though ;P
So many of you are members of that site/forum. How ever did you guys hold it in, haahaaahaa.
Don't tell us you guys got sick of your "Ducky" already. I think this new endevour will be just a wee bit more expensive for ya.

I do not quit understand what's your meaning,  ducky is a production of a Taiwan company, KBC is a production of an organization of China. but both been made by the same factory. but in fact, thing could not be done just in one factory, there's some small parts should be made by the supplier.

[imsto]

I think the Ducky will stay, maybe this new project is the Plum replacement. Production should be relatively cheap in China and if successful, with good quality and low price, the initial cost will more than worthwhile. Imagine Desktop Systems having mechanical kbds options.....rather than rubber domes.

buddy, we can't make a kbd with the same price as PLUM. I have to say mechanical kbds are a little expensive for Chinese people.

[quadibloc]

Grab a laptop layout

Aren't there a lot of "compact keyboards", admittedly, pretty much all rubber domes, that do that already?

Of course, the trouble with those is that they have a lot of reduced-size keys, and mechanical switches usually take up enough space that only full-sized keys are possible. But there are older laptop layouts that used all full-sized keys.

Also, I notice that the "Random2" keyboard pictured is the sort of thing I'm suggesting: just the ANSI main typing area, with Esc and function keys at the top... but this one also has one extra key on the left.

[J888www]

We can't make a kbd with the same price as PLUM. I have to say mechanical kbds are a little expensive for Chinese people.

I did not suggest selling KBDs to the Chinese people, but to produce them in China and sell it to the rest of the World.
Well, whatever the objective, I wish you well. More supply = lower market price = good for all of us consumers.

[chimera15]

The current layout they have is somewhat interesting in that it appears to be the same for a right hander/left hander.  Do left hand typists use right shift more or something? I've never used the right shift on a keyboard once in my whole life as a right hander.

[phoenix]

imsto, I've already said in another post that I would've liked the ` key to remain on the first layer so that I don't have to press Fn for it when I type LaTeX, but extremely few people type LaTeX, and even in LaTeX I only need it for quotations. So should you listen to me? No! (The same is true for quite a few comments on your own forum where they mention how they type in all these nonstandard ways. Ignore them. Unless you provide complete programmability, you will never make everyone happy. BTW, I'm appalled by the arrogance of a certain member there in a similar thread.)

I used to really like the way it's done on the HHKB but I had trouble switching between the ANSI and HHKB layouts (kept pressing caps lock for ctrl and \ for BS on other keyboards). I can't always expect to have an HHKB with me, so I'm very much supportive of a keyboard layout that's as close to ANSI as possible.

Some ideas:

- An extra key to the right of the right shift key, like HHKB. Can be another Fn, can be `. The standard right shift occupies too much space.

- Fn immediately to the left of space for the left thumb, without sacrificing Ctrl, Alt or Windows in their usual positions. Who says there can be only 3 keys to the left of space? Why not 4? I press space with my right thumb and it almost never reaches beyond the center of the V key. Are there a lot of people who use their left thumb or frequently use both for space?

[aegrotatio]

Your keyboard (pictures in the original post) is beautiful.

I think the keyboard enthusiast market wants a keyboard with NORMAL PC layout keys like you have in the original post.  I have two HHKB and do not use them simply because the Backspace, Tilde/Backtick, and Esc keys are in the wrong places.  It's the only reason I have not bought the HHKB Pro.  The layout must be the de-facto layout everyone already knows.

[imsto]

phoenix, thanks!   I press the space by left thumb..


I think there're a few problems with this small keyboard layout

--something about ~, I do not know what kind of people would use this, but I never use it. esc should been put to topleft, so where to put the ~

-- arrow keys, seems the best choice is put them on rightbotom, but it seems that the right shift has got the position. and if the arrow keys should be used with the fn key to make it work.

-- something about the shi* windows keys and menu button. I think there should be dip switch to change the windows button to something else like esc or tab etc.

-- where to put the del. most people are used to press del besides the \
people need to get used to the new position of the del

-- the other keys like insert home end pageup pagedown etc.

[Megaweapon]

--something about ~, I do not know what kind of people would use this, but I never use it. esc should been put to topleft, so where to put the ~

The kind of people who use a Unix-type command line on a regular basis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_directory#Unix

[aegrotatio]

Here is what I'm thinking of.
Just a simple US ANSI keyboard with the right third cut off.  THe missing keys can be added using Function keys.
The media keys and other jobbage would be used by combining a "FN" key (not pictured) in conjunction with the "F1-F12" keys.

Well, actually, a SIIG MiniTouch Plus / BTC-5100C with the arrow keys in the correct place.  That keyboard is the perfect tenkeyless board but for the rubber dome cheapness.

[chimera15]

My last design is the only one that makes full sense that keeps as much with the original ansi layout, and allows for the missing keys, and a keypad.  One consideration may be to swap the escape and `~ key since people seem to like it by the 1, and escape really isn't used that much, or put it down by the right of the spacebar.

Your keyboard (pictures in the original post) is beautiful.

I think the keyboard enthusiast market wants a keyboard with NORMAL PC layout keys like you have in the original post.  I have two HHKB and do not use them simply because the Backspace, Tilde/Backtick, and Esc keys are in the wrong places.  It's the only reason I have not bought the HHKB Pro.  The layout must be the de-facto layout everyone already knows.

Yeah I feel the same about the hhkb, the layout is just too odd, except for the control position which I really like. That's why with my mods I rewire all that, but yeah...who puts a delete/backspace  key in the qwerty row..wtf

[aegrotatio]

Here is what I'm thinking of.
Just a simple US ANSI keyboard with the right third cut off.  THe missing keys can be added using Function keys.
The media keys and other jobbage would be used by combining a "FN" key in conjunction with the "F1-F12" keys.

Well, actually, a SIIG MiniTouch Plus / BTC-5100C with the arrow keys in the correct place.  That keyboard is the perfect tenkeyless board except for the rubber dome cheapness.

[chimera15]

Here is what I'm thinking of.
Just a simple US ANSI keyboard with the right third cut off.  THe missing keys can be added using Function keys.
The media keys and other jobbage would be used by combining a "FN" key in conjunction with the "F1-F12" keys.

Well, actually, a SIIG MiniTouch Plus / BTC-5100C with the arrow keys in the correct place.  That keyboard is the perfect tenkeyless board except for the rubber dome cheapness.

Show Image

I don't think there's as much problem when you have a function row compact, the problem is the hhbk no function row one.  Yours uses non standard caps which is always a pain.  The siig minitouch is already this kind of board though, that works perfectly, except for the mixed up function/control key, and cut down left column that eliminates the `~ on the number row.

[aegrotatio]

I don't think there's as much problem when you have a function row compact, the problem is the hhbk no function row one.  Yours uses non standard caps which is always a pain.  The siig minitouch is already this kind of board though, that works perfectly, except for the mixed up function/control key, and cut down left column that eliminates the `~ on the number row.

Yeah, I was wondering about the non-standard sized keycaps.
With another two hours I could draw one with all same-sized keycaps.

My goal is a keyboard that is the very same as a real keyboard just like the SIIG Minitouch Plus/5100C but with all standard-size keycaps.  I don't need or want arrow keys, but I think most people do want page up/down and delete/insert, and having F-keys satisfies those folks who use multimedia keys as you would use Fn-F12 for whatever.  That's the idea I want to convey, this same picture, but make the keys all the same standard size.

Just a revised SIIG Minitouch Plus/BTC 5100C with the arrow keys in the right place and the bezel cut off so the keys are flush with the edge.  The ABS M1 keyboard is close to achieving this but has the dreaded numeric keypad and arrow key/pageup-pagedown cluster that can be reduced to a vertical row of useful keys.

Just for the sake of completeness, I'm talking about the new SIIG MiniTouch Plus a.k.a. BTC-5100C, not the old clicky one with the weird layout that drives me insane.

[chimera15]

Yeah, I was wondering about the non-standard sized keycaps.
With another two hours I could draw one with all same-sized keycaps.

My goal is a keyboard that is the very same as a real keyboard just like the SIIG Minitouch Plus/5100C but with all standard-size keycaps.  I don't need or want arrow keys, but I think most people do want page up/down and delete/insert, and having F-keys satisfies those folks who use multimedia keys as you would use Fn-F12 for whatever.  That's the idea I want to convey, this same picture, but make the keys all the same standard size.

Just a revised SIIG Minitouch Plus/BTC 5100C with the arrow keys in the right place and the bezel cut off so the keys are flush with the edge.  The ABS M1 keyboard is close to achieving this but has the dreaded numeric keypad and arrow key/pageup-pagedown cluster that can be reduced to a vertical row of useful keys.

Just for the sake of completeness, I'm talking about the new SIIG MiniTouch Plus a.k.a. BTC-5100C, not the old clicky one with the weird layout that drives me insane.

What about the old layout drives you insane? It's almost exactly the same as a laptop layout.  Just the function/control key being swapped, and no `~ key in the number row?

[aegrotatio]

I took another look and I like it.  I agree the tilde ~ key has to be put somewhere.  I think the layout you have is good.

[quadibloc]

What about the old layout drives you insane? It's almost exactly the same as a laptop layout.  Just the function/control key being swapped, and no `~ key in the number row?

Some of your illustrations showed layouts with no right-hand shift key.

That would be completely impossible to type with in a normal fashion. Having the cursor keys in the normal arrangement just isn't that high a priority; having both shift keys is absolutely essential.

imsto needs more advices from all over the world ^_^

From the bbs.kbc-china.com page, the keyboard in part 4 of the picture (now missing piece 5) is called 新概念 60%, the Chinese characters apparently meaning "new concept". Since that one is depicted with blank keys, I don't know what type of layout they have planned for it.

What puzzles me, though, is that there's a page at www.kbc-china.com, but when I try to go to their Products page, I get a 404 error. Their BBS page works, but their corporate page hasn't been fully set up yet. Of course, if this is an enthusiast-based company which hasn't quite got their first products ready yet, that may not be as strange as it seems.

[imsto]

60% is another kbd like 40% but there are f1-f12
the http://www.kbc-china.com is not finished, we can not do the coding, looking for somebody to do that.lol     or we can spend some money to hire someone to do that. but....

[kriminal]

ugh at lay-out discussions...

[quadibloc]

ugh at lay-out discussions...

Then I suppose I should apologize to you in advance, because presumably that's the sort of advice that is being sought.

My guess is that the 60% keyboard is intended to be something like this in its default state:



Given that the other keyboard is shown with the right-hand Windows Shift key being replaced by the Fn key, presumably that's what is intended for this one as well. As I've noted before, I suggest replacing the Windows Menu key by the Fn key instead.

So, in Fn-shift, the top row, going across, would be Esc, F1 - F12, and finally Windows Menu.

There are alternative choices, of course. Pause/Break is more "dangerous" than Esc, so perhaps the key in the upper left would normally be Esc, and then Fn-shifted to be Pause/Break.

Or, since Scroll Lock is very rarely used, the key in the upper left might normally be Esc, Fn-shifted to be Pause/Break, and Pause/Break would replace the key shown as Scroll Lock in the diagram.

Also, accidentally hitting Caps Lock is a common complaint. So, Caps Lock might be made into a second left-hand Fn key (and then swapped with left-hand Ctrl as well, possibly). In that case, since the key in the upper right is Num Lock, it would be easier to remember if that key were Fn-shifted into Caps Lock... and Fn-backspace were used for the Windows Menu key.

The extra key on the ANSI layout should somehow be available. If it isn't a physical key (with room made for it by shortening the right-hand shift key), I suppose the most obvious option is Fn-Tab (or even an Fn-shift of the ~` key, but I would recommend against that as confusing, when the keyboard is in a state in which none of the other printable character keys have Fn shifts).

As long as you've got an Fn key, however, I think it would be a good idea to have the option of switching the keyboard into... shall we call it Otaku mode... in which the printable character keys do have Fn shifts, such as allow you to use the keyboard without ever using the top row - presumably with the same layout as used for the product without a top row.

The numeric keypad should go in the standard laptop locations, which are visible in the image. As Fn-shift is not expected to bring up the numeric keypad, there is no conflict in using the same keys for Fn-shifts, and my personal preference for the layout of that kind of keyboard, which matches neither the MiniGuru proposal nor the HHKB, would be something like this:

Code: [Select]

-----------------------------------------------------------
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |       |
|ESC|F1 |F2 |F3 |F4 |F5 |F6 |F7 |F8 |F9 |F10|F11|F12|       |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|     |   |   |   |PG |   |   |CAP|WIN| < |   |   |   |     |
|     |   |INS|HOM|UP |   |   |LK |MNU| > |   |   |   |     |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|      |NUM|   |   |PG |   |   |   |   | ^ | | |   |        |
|      |LK |DEL|END|DN |   |   |<- | ->| | | v |   |        |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|        |   |PRT|SCL|PAU|   |   |   |   |   |   |      |   |
|        |   |SC |LK |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |      |   |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|     |    |    |                      |    |    |    |     |
|     |    |    |                      |    |    |    |     |
 -----------------------------------------------------------
The Fn-shifts for the cursor keys are directly on the home-row positions of the right hand. (Which makes a left-hand Fn key important.)

The keys from Insert to Page Down are laid out exactly as on the standard keyboard, making them easy to find, and they're either on the home row, or up-reaches. The more difficult down-reaches are reserved for the less common Print Screen to Pause/Break keys, again in their standard relationship.

These keys are in columns 2, 3, and 4, not 1, 2, and 3, so that the little finger instead of the index finger is the one not used.

The <> key represents the extra ISO-layout printable character key; perhaps Fn-~` would be better than Fn-O for that key (but right now, that position is used for Esc, as being the easiest to remember).

Also, note that cursor left and cursor right are the Fn-shifts of J and K, so that they're under the two strongest fingers, although that is not the same arrangement as that of the cursor keys in the top row, which puts cursor left and cursor right on the right, so that cursor left is closer to backspace.

[chimera15]

Some of your illustrations showed layouts with no right-hand shift key.

That would be completely impossible to type with in a normal fashion. Having the cursor keys in the normal arrangement just isn't that high a priority; having both shift keys is absolutely essential.

From the bbs.kbc-china.com page, the keyboard in part 4 of the picture (now missing piece 5) is called 新概念 60%, the Chinese characters apparently meaning "new concept". Since that one is depicted with blank keys, I don't know what type of layout they have planned for it.

What puzzles me, though, is that there's a page at www.kbc-china.com, but when I try to go to their Products page, I get a 404 error. Their BBS page works, but their corporate page hasn't been fully set up yet. Of course, if this is an enthusiast-based company which hasn't quite got their first products ready yet, that may not be as strange as it seems.

You use the right hand shift key? When? I've never ever used the right hand shift and never seen or talked to anyone that does...

Are you left handed?

The normal minitouch has a right hand shift.  My modified hhkb layout doesn't to get rid of the extra side row and shrink it even farther, and I eleminated the right hand shift because I didn't know that people ever use it.

[kishy]

I use right shift all the time. Most people who type use right shift quite a bit...

Of course, if you can get away without it, more power to you. Just seems like right pinky finger is going to shrivel up and fall off from disuse, that's all.

[British]

Stuff

I wasn't expecting to answer that in this very thread, and maybe you have dismissed it already in some other thread, but here goes anyway...

Why oh why, do you put your arrow keys in those positions ?
It is counter-intuitive regarding what regular (and even all those inversed-T layouts on tenkeyless and such) keyboards use, that is: index and ring fingers on left and right arrows, and thus the middle switching between up and down.
TL;DR: Index and ring fingers are static, middle is moving.

So when you move all those keys to just one row, that would mean that the left and right arrow keys are on the "outer rim", no matter what, and so up and down are put in-between.

And let's praise UNIX, it's been done before, check how vi does it:
[h] [j] [k] [l] as

[down] [up]

[/B]

use right shift all the time. Most people who type use right shift quite a bit...

Of course, if you can get away without it, more power to you. Just seems like right pinky finger is going to shrivel up and fall off from disuse, that's all.

The more reason to shorten that left shift key and put some other key there (no, I'm not talking about ISO per se, but that's one more possibility to press on... more possibilities can only be good, right ?) :wink:

[chimera15]

I use right shift all the time. Most people who type use right shift quite a bit...

Of course, if you can get away without it, more power to you. Just seems like right pinky finger is going to shrivel up and fall off from disuse, that's all.

So when do you use it? What keys do you capitalize with it? I use my pinky finger to press enter and '".  I started a new topic on this.

[clickclack]

...relatively cheap in China and if successful, with good quality and low price...

no doubt

... . Imagine Desktop Systems having mechanical kbds options.....rather than rubber domes.

Just like it used to be =P
Ahhh... those were the days, the days where the computers sucked but the keybaords ruled! =D

DIY KIT YES! Where can I get one then?

I notice that too!

when there's a diy kit, I will post it here.

hey now =)

I do not quit understand what's your meaning,  ducky is a production of a Taiwan company, KBC is a production of an organization of China. but both been made by the same factory. but in fact, thing could not be done just in one factory, there's some small parts should be made by the supplier.

Ooo, see this is where things are getting a bit fuzzy. I think there is either something lost in translation going on or something else entirely.

My meaning is this-

ducky is the kbd from our factory but not designed by us...here is a couple of pic of ducky production of ducky and KBC....

now couple that with what you just said and we have the root of my question. And that question is Whuuuuah?

LIT-lost in translation?  (i wonder if it will catch on) =P

[imsto]

no doubt

My meaning is this-


now couple that with what you just said and we have the root of my question. And that question is Whuuuuah?

LIT-lost in translation?  (i wonder if it will catch on) =P

my man, I am still puzzled.... the difference of thinking between us maybe.
Is that that I said "our factory" and "the factory in Taiwan" that makes your question?

[imsto]

Then I suppose I should apologize to you in advance, because presumably that's the sort of advice that is being sought.

thank u so much that type so many words and cost me half an hour to read it. and have't got all with my shi* English.

[imsto]

hey now =)

I think there would be, but later.  
have not got enough ideas now.

[imsto]

going back home to see the world cup.
German vs Serbia
I like German, I wrote a letter to Mattheus when I was a kid, and he did not answer me. .

[itlnstln]

All this layout talk only furthers my belief that PFU got it about as close to "right" with the HHKB as possible for a keyboard this small. That said, about the only thing left on my radar is an HHKB with brown Cherrys.

Carry on.

[chimera15]

All this layout talk only furthers my belief that PFU got it about as close to "right" with the HHKB as possible for a keyboard this small. That said, about the only thing left on my radar is an HHKB with brown Cherrys.

Carry on.

I can appreciate the difficulty they had, but they got it far from right.  Mine is much closer with two function keys. I just need to figure out a way to shoehorn in a right shift key and it'll be near perfect.

[itlnstln]

My HHKB has two Fn keys.

[chimera15]

My HHKB has two Fn keys.

No, it has one function key in two spots.  This board layout would have 2 separate function keys, function 1 and function 2.  Function 1 turns keypad on.  Function 2 turns the number row to function keys.  With two function keys it opens up the possibilities of lots of second and tertiary layers on the board, for instance, it could also be that pressing both function keys together would cause the number pad to turn into a second arrow/page up/page down home, end pad.  

Here's another version.  This incorporates a right shift that everyone seemed appalled that a board wouldn't have, but it looses the t inverted arrow format and goes with the new siig arrow key layout.  I think it works, I could live with this version.  I also put the capslock back to the default position since there was some complaint about that.  Essentially the difference with this is that it just sacrifices a larger spacebar to fit more keys in.

[unicomp]

My keyboard is smaller and iPad friendly.

Good luck typing on that.

[itlnstln]

It looks like my phone's keyboard.

[aegrotatio]

I have to say, the BTC-5100C / SIIG Minitouch Plus (non-clicky) keyboards have close to the perfect layout.  That's why I have five of them.

[clickclack]

my man, I am still puzzled.... the difference of thinking between us maybe.
Is that that I said "our factory" and "the factory in Taiwan" that makes your question?

I think I am just as confused as you (perhaps more so)
Essentially I am confused about these things-
KBT
KBC
enthusiasts
manufacturer
Designs
Distributers/marketers

There seems to be some crossover and some contradicting information. I can further refine this if necessary.

thank u so much that type so many words and cost me half an hour to read it. and have't got all with my shi* English.

Ouch! I hope that was a lost in translation thing again. I mean the thread is titled "KBC keyboard needs your advice".

I'm not old fashioned like you guys.
My thumbs have evolved to a higher level.

ORLY?
Are these those same thumbs??? Mutation/evolution, meh, same finger different thimble =D

[imsto]

ORLY?
Are these those same thumbs??? Mutation/evolution, meh, same finger different thimble =D

Oh,man! it looks sick...

[chimera15]

Oh,man! it looks sick...

Yeah, he's got right hands growing out of his left hand, that's just wrong, they should be tiny left hands, what is he, a mutant?

[JBert]

when there's a diy kit, I will post it here.

I also hope to hear about it...

[imsto]

I think a diy kit would not cheap than a kbd assembled in the factory.

[chimera15]

I think a diy kit would not cheap than a kbd assembled in the factory.

Why wouldn't it? You're not paying a wage to someone to solder and assemble a board, and then someone to qc it. That's skilled labor you now don't have to pay someone to do.  You essentially make the buyer the workforce.  You also don't have to pay for the solder/soldering iron, or overhead for the factory like a building.

It should be tremendously cheaper, unless you're just running a sweatshop factory.

[quadibloc]

Why wouldn't it? You're not paying a wage to someone to solder and assemble a board, and then someone to qc it.

True, but it might be harder to pack the box filled with components for safe shipment than it would be the completed keyboard.

[quadibloc]

Why oh why, do you put your arrow keys in those positions ?
It is counter-intuitive regarding what regular (and even all those inversed-T layouts on tenkeyless and such) keyboards use, that is: index and ring fingers on left and right arrows, and thus the middle switching between up and down.
TL;DR: Index and ring fingers are static, middle is moving.

So when you move all those keys to just one row, that would mean that the left and right arrow keys are on the "outer rim", no matter what, and so up and down are put in-between.

And let's praise UNIX, it's been done before, check how vi does it:
[h] [j] [k] [l] as

[down] [up]

[/B]

Well, for one thing, the diagram in question was referring to key placement on a specific keyboard design. This keyboard design didn't have keys in the appropriate positions for an inverted-T cursor key layout, no matter how much it might be wished for.

As for the positions of the cursor keys, though, while it is true that the Unix key assignments might be considered a standard, those are Ctrl-shift key assignments. As such, they are constrained by the fact that ctrl-H (used for cursor left) is backspace, and ctrl-J (used for cursor down) is line feed.

On computer terminals in general, historically the inverted-T arrangement has not been common. Instead, a related arrangement, that used on the 122-key terminal keyboard, where the four cursor keys surround a central key, is found on the most elaborate keyboards.

On other keyboards, it has been the nearly invariable rule that the cursor up and cursor down keys are together, and the cursor left and cursor right keys are together. Sometimes these four keys are in a square 2 by 2 array, with cursor up and down in one row, and cursor left and right in another.

So I was trying to follow historical standard practice. The most common cursor movement key is cursor left, and so I put that near the related backspace key when the key was a separate key at the top of the keyboard, and under the strongest finger when it is an Fn-shift in the main typing area.