Author Topic: Case  (Read 1690 times)

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Offline DNLTLM

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Case
« on: Sat, 07 March 2020, 05:58:28 »
Somebody know software where i can design case for group buy?

Offline Mechboards

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Re: Case
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 07 March 2020, 06:03:13 »
Fusion 360 is free for hobbyists.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Case
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 07 March 2020, 19:29:24 »
Somebody know software where i can design case for group buy?
The fact that you are starting off with that question is a massive red flag.

I get you have an idea and want to get it made, but CAD isn't like you download Final Cut and start splicing parts together. You can learn cad software on your own, Youtube will teach you, but to get to where you can make something presentable will take weeks and if you are not familiar with manufacturing methods the cost to make it can be ten fold. Not to mention you probably greatly underestimate the amount of time, money and effort this will cost. Machines have tolerances, there are multiple ways to do the same job, finding a shop takes time, waiting on that shop takes time because they will not prioritize you.

Don't be surprised if you spend the better part of a year learning, designing and waiting on the shop to make your first one, only to find it doesn't even come close to working and by the time you have a product you can actually offer up as a group buy that you've spent 2 years and spent $5-20k of your own money. Do you plan on eating that or adding it to the cost, don't forget finish (anodizing), packing and shipping. 50 cases is still a small batch for most shops so again you will be waiting, then waiting again at the anodizer, but while that's a small amount for them, it's not for you when you have to pack up 50 three pound items and delicately move them from the machinist across town to the anodizer then again to home where you get to box then take them to the post office to ship them.

You scoff at 2 years, but remember, you're starting from zero. You need to learn CAD, you need to find a shop, you need to wait for a hole in their schedule, fix your mistakes, tighten tolerances, make it look good, try and reign in costs, and then do it all again, multiple times. 2 years is not an outlandish number once you understand how long each step can take. If you had experience and a shop ready to take it on, you could knock it down to 3-6 months, but you have none of that.


But if you TRULY want to do this,
Start with Fusion 360, buy a cheap ($20) digital caliper from Amazon or Harbor Freight (you WILL need one) and buy a 3d printer. Yes, the printer will be a hobby in itself and be another thing to learn  but while learning the printer, you will be learning tolerances and design. The printer will pay for itself on the very first prototype. With it you can make and test your ideas (relatively) quickly and make sure you haven't made at least any colossal mistakes and come to an understanding of what you are working with. Meanwhile, start looking for shops and talking to people in the know to locate a reasonable shop and get direction on how to make minor changes that significantly cut the cost of manufacturing. You will still be into this a few grand before you have a good enough product you can offer for a group buy, but it will be faster and cheaper than the alternative.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline DNLTLM

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  • Posts: 16
Re: Case
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 08 March 2020, 13:42:39 »
Somebody know software where i can design case for group buy?
The fact that you are starting off with that question is a massive red flag.

I get you have an idea and want to get it made, but CAD isn't like you download Final Cut and start splicing parts together. You can learn cad software on your own, Youtube will teach you, but to get to where you can make something presentable will take weeks and if you are not familiar with manufacturing methods the cost to make it can be ten fold. Not to mention you probably greatly underestimate the amount of time, money and effort this will cost. Machines have tolerances, there are multiple ways to do the same job, finding a shop takes time, waiting on that shop takes time because they will not prioritize you.

Don't be surprised if you spend the better part of a year learning, designing and waiting on the shop to make your first one, only to find it doesn't even come close to working and by the time you have a product you can actually offer up as a group buy that you've spent 2 years and spent $5-20k of your own money. Do you plan on eating that or adding it to the cost, don't forget finish (anodizing), packing and shipping. 50 cases is still a small batch for most shops so again you will be waiting, then waiting again at the anodizer, but while that's a small amount for them, it's not for you when you have to pack up 50 three pound items and delicately move them from the machinist across town to the anodizer then again to home where you get to box then take them to the post office to ship them.

You scoff at 2 years, but remember, you're starting from zero. You need to learn CAD, you need to find a shop, you need to wait for a hole in their schedule, fix your mistakes, tighten tolerances, make it look good, try and reign in costs, and then do it all again, multiple times. 2 years is not an outlandish number once you understand how long each step can take. If you had experience and a shop ready to take it on, you could knock it down to 3-6 months, but you have none of that.


But if you TRULY want to do this,
Start with Fusion 360, buy a cheap ($20) digital caliper from Amazon or Harbor Freight (you WILL need one) and buy a 3d printer. Yes, the printer will be a hobby in itself and be another thing to learn  but while learning the printer, you will be learning tolerances and design. The printer will pay for itself on the very first prototype. With it you can make and test your ideas (relatively) quickly and make sure you haven't made at least any colossal mistakes and come to an understanding of what you are working with. Meanwhile, start looking for shops and talking to people in the know to locate a reasonable shop and get direction on how to make minor changes that significantly cut the cost of manufacturing. You will still be into this a few grand before you have a good enough product you can offer for a group buy, but it will be faster and cheaper than the alternative.
Thank you for critique, I donít hope to succeed in this, but I would like to start at least with something. This is my hobby now, and i will not be sad if i make a mistake. Thank you so much for tips.

Offline katotaka

  • Posts: 47
  • Location: Hong Kong
Re: Case
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 11 March 2020, 06:04:26 »
I'd say 2 years is optimistic, don't ask how I know.

Offline 4sStylZ

  • Posts: 115
Re: Case
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 12 March 2020, 11:50:04 »
Those a good advices. But the better way to reach an objectif is to start the work. ^^

Also, even if you donít reach your objectif, you will learn something.

(BTW I am typing this on a prototype 3D printed keyboard and because of my bad tolerance I canít use my A and B key lol)
Bťpo user here : AEK64 White linear dampened, XD75 Cherry Blue Jailhoused, TypeMatrix2030 black skin, Lenovo 0B47200 w/ trackpoint, G13, G512. Kensington Expert Trackball & Orbit, Magic touchpad 2.

Offline Keyboard_Warrior364

  • Posts: 15
  • Location: Serbia
Re: Case
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 12 March 2020, 13:41:52 »
SolidWorks is a good tool, but not free.
Somebody already suggested Fusion.

Dont think you should rush with the idea of a group buy any time soon. It takes time to learn and also to optimize a project for cnc milling which is a whole other problem in itself.

Best of luck to you and your project

Offline DNLTLM

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Re: Case
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 12 March 2020, 15:27:09 »
SolidWorks is a good tool, but not free.
Somebody already suggested Fusion.

Dont think you should rush with the idea of a group buy any time soon. It takes time to learn and also to optimize a project for cnc milling which is a whole other problem in itself.

Best of luck to you and your project
Thanks you too. Ok, you can give me some info, where guide, or thread about case theme?
« Last Edit: Thu, 12 March 2020, 15:48:47 by DNLTLM »

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Case
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 12 March 2020, 19:32:30 »
Focus on learning CAD first and how to use a 3d printer first, Youtube is your friend here.

Until you get a grasp on CAD, you aren't even getting out of the idea phase. At the same time, learning how to use a 3d printer is a hobby in itself. That too will take some time as firing one up and printing something you downloaded is one thing, learning to actually use it is a journey. You may think you are ready sooner because you are getting usable items but as you learn you will look back and laugh at just how little you knew.


Also, one other VERY important thing.
It's VERY easy to get caught up in a cycle of constant revision. "I should make that just a little taller", then spend another week on changing it and printing prototypes only to realize "I really should have done it this way instead of that" and start another week chasing that one change. Next thing you know you spent 3 months altering one teeny tiny detail no one but you would ever notice and made no further progress on anything else only to find out you needed that part a little shorter because of another thing rubbing.

At some point you have to stop revisions to the design and only work on fit and finish or it will never see the light of day.
You may laugh and think it sounds silly but ask anyone who has designed a few things, they've all had that problem. There is always something more you can change, tweak, make better and with the software and printer right there, it makes it entirely too easy.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline DNLTLM

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Re: Case
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 13 March 2020, 03:32:45 »
Focus on learning CAD first and how to use a 3d printer first, Youtube is your friend here.

Until you get a grasp on CAD, you aren't even getting out of the idea phase. At the same time, learning how to use a 3d printer is a hobby in itself. That too will take some time as firing one up and printing something you downloaded is one thing, learning to actually use it is a journey. You may think you are ready sooner because you are getting usable items but as you learn you will look back and laugh at just how little you knew.


Also, one other VERY important thing.
It's VERY easy to get caught up in a cycle of constant revision. "I should make that just a little taller", then spend another week on changing it and printing prototypes only to realize "I really should have done it this way instead of that" and start another week chasing that one change. Next thing you know you spent 3 months altering one teeny tiny detail no one but you would ever notice and made no further progress on anything else only to find out you needed that part a little shorter because of another thing rubbing.

At some point you have to stop revisions to the design and only work on fit and finish or it will never see the light of day.
You may laugh and think it sounds silly but ask anyone who has designed a few things, they've all had that problem. There is always something more you can change, tweak, make better and with the software and printer right there, it makes it entirely too easy.
Thanks, what 3d printer you can advise up to 350 dollars?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Case
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 13 March 2020, 04:25:05 »
For around $300 (?)
The Ender Pro has been the best bang for the buck for a bit.
The regular Ender is okay, but there is like 50 different versions and some are straight up dangerous. Get the pro, avoid the mess. Downside, is size it only handles about 12in objects (expect closer to 11) and support/documentation isn't great, however support groups for it are massive.

I've also heard the Evnovo Sidewinder X1 is also good, but I have no experience with the printer or the company who makes it.

If you need a bit larger build area, the Tronxy for around $450 (not sure on the exact model, but get one of the better corexy variants).
The good, it will handle 14in objects (again expect closer to 13 usable), other than that the same applies as above, limited support, there are support groups, just not as large as the Ender.


Best for noobs, without a doubt and will get you up and going the fastest, Prusa.
Downsides, same size as the Ender, there may still be a wait and most importantly they cost about $750. If you want this to be easy this is the printer to get. There is fantastic help, support, documentation and support groups and it's just a darn good printer.  The learning curve/hassle is probably half compared to the others. It may seem expensive but it actually costs about half what it's competitors cost and comes with upgrades even those lack.


Larger than 14in or so prices shoot up VERY fast.  Big printer, big money, bigger problems, I've built several and everyone, even people with years of experience under-estimate the complexity as you go big.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline DNLTLM

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Re: Case
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 13 March 2020, 11:49:22 »
For around $300 (?)
The Ender Pro has been the best bang for the buck for a bit.
The regular Ender is okay, but there is like 50 different versions and some are straight up dangerous. Get the pro, avoid the mess. Downside, is size it only handles about 12in objects (expect closer to 11) and support/documentation isn't great, however support groups for it are massive.

I've also heard the Evnovo Sidewinder X1 is also good, but I have no experience with the printer or the company who makes it.

If you need a bit larger build area, the Tronxy for around $450 (not sure on the exact model, but get one of the better corexy variants).
The good, it will handle 14in objects (again expect closer to 13 usable), other than that the same applies as above, limited support, there are support groups, just not as large as the Ender.


Best for noobs, without a doubt and will get you up and going the fastest, Prusa.
Downsides, same size as the Ender, there may still be a wait and most importantly they cost about $750. If you want this to be easy this is the printer to get. There is fantastic help, support, documentation and support groups and it's just a darn good printer.  The learning curve/hassle is probably half compared to the others. It may seem expensive but it actually costs about half what it's competitors cost and comes with upgrades even those lack.


Larger than 14in or so prices shoot up VERY fast.  Big printer, big money, bigger problems, I've built several and everyone, even people with years of experience under-estimate the complexity as you go big.
Ok, but i can print only split or very small case?(on ender pro). And case quality will be not enough to sell this? I want to make keyboards and sell them to make money and experience. What you think about this? I think what it very risky because enquiry is small in my country(Ukraine) and people mb excluding geeks and programmers, won't to spend more than 100 dollars on keyboard, but like hobby i like this.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Case
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 13 March 2020, 20:46:18 »
So much to unpack for such a short reply...

You will need to design the case, then split it for printing then glue/screw it back together.
You aren't going to sell the cases coming off the printer, this is for learning and testing before you take the design to a machine shop and have them mill it out of aluminum. Machine shops charge an arm and a leg for prototypes and they are also backlogged. A 3d printer makes the process faster and cheaper as you can print and make sure it all works before you have them make it. It's very easy to forget a hole in CAD, forgetting a hole on a 3d printer means you lost a few dollars in plastic and a night of printing, forgetting a hole and sending the plans to a machine shop means you just spent $800 and waited 6 months for a paper weight. Home 3d printers are good for one-offs and prototypes, not for production, at least not the way you think.


Here is what will happen if you try and sell a 3d printed case.
Most people with a printer will just download an existing design (there are tons out there), modify it to look the same (it takes minutes) and then print it on their own printer. 3d printers are everywhere, designs are everywhere and it's far too easy to modify an existing design. This is exactly what I did when I built my GH60, I grabbed someone else's design, changed it a little, then printed it. It took me 4 days but the final took less than a day, and probably cost me $2 to make it, $5 if you count the prototypes.

You also aren't going to be printing metal with this printer, there is metal filled filament but not only is it expensive, it destroys the nozzle (there are better nozzles to handle this), but it's still not a metal case. If you want to print metal you will need a whole lot more money, they cost more than a house and the printer itself is the cheapest part of the process.


You have no training, no experience, no equipment, no startup capital. At best you will break even after 2-3 years and after spending thousands of your own money, at worst you've spent $20-$40k and have a few paper weights on your desk.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline DNLTLM

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  • Posts: 16
Re: Case
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 14 March 2020, 04:31:17 »
So much to unpack for such a short reply...

You will need to design the case, then split it for printing then glue/screw it back together.
You aren't going to sell the cases coming off the printer, this is for learning and testing before you take the design to a machine shop and have them mill it out of aluminum. Machine shops charge an arm and a leg for prototypes and they are also backlogged. A 3d printer makes the process faster and cheaper as you can print and make sure it all works before you have them make it. It's very easy to forget a hole in CAD, forgetting a hole on a 3d printer means you lost a few dollars in plastic and a night of printing, forgetting a hole and sending the plans to a machine shop means you just spent $800 and waited 6 months for a paper weight. Home 3d printers are good for one-offs and prototypes, not for production, at least not the way you think.


Here is what will happen if you try and sell a 3d printed case.
Most people with a printer will just download an existing design (there are tons out there), modify it to look the same (it takes minutes) and then print it on their own printer. 3d printers are everywhere, designs are everywhere and it's far too easy to modify an existing design. This is exactly what I did when I built my GH60, I grabbed someone else's design, changed it a little, then printed it. It took me 4 days but the final took less than a day, and probably cost me $2 to make it, $5 if you count the prototypes.

You also aren't going to be printing metal with this printer, there is metal filled filament but not only is it expensive, it destroys the nozzle (there are better nozzles to handle this), but it's still not a metal case. If you want to print metal you will need a whole lot more money, they cost more than a house and the printer itself is the cheapest part of the process.


You have no training, no experience, no equipment, no startup capital. At best you will break even after 2-3 years and after spending thousands of your own money, at worst you've spent $20-$40k and have a few paper weights on your desk.
I will remember this. Thank you for instructions.

Offline DNLTLM

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  • Posts: 16
Re: Case
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 14 March 2020, 04:36:52 »
So much to unpack for such a short reply...

You will need to design the case, then split it for printing then glue/screw it back together.
You aren't going to sell the cases coming off the printer, this is for learning and testing before you take the design to a machine shop and have them mill it out of aluminum. Machine shops charge an arm and a leg for prototypes and they are also backlogged. A 3d printer makes the process faster and cheaper as you can print and make sure it all works before you have them make it. It's very easy to forget a hole in CAD, forgetting a hole on a 3d printer means you lost a few dollars in plastic and a night of printing, forgetting a hole and sending the plans to a machine shop means you just spent $800 and waited 6 months for a paper weight. Home 3d printers are good for one-offs and prototypes, not for production, at least not the way you think.


Here is what will happen if you try and sell a 3d printed case.
Most people with a printer will just download an existing design (there are tons out there), modify it to look the same (it takes minutes) and then print it on their own printer. 3d printers are everywhere, designs are everywhere and it's far too easy to modify an existing design. This is exactly what I did when I built my GH60, I grabbed someone else's design, changed it a little, then printed it. It took me 4 days but the final took less than a day, and probably cost me $2 to make it, $5 if you count the prototypes.

You also aren't going to be printing metal with this printer, there is metal filled filament but not only is it expensive, it destroys the nozzle (there are better nozzles to handle this), but it's still not a metal case. If you want to print metal you will need a whole lot more money, they cost more than a house and the printer itself is the cheapest part of the process.


You have no training, no experience, no equipment, no startup capital. At best you will break even after 2-3 years and after spending thousands of your own money, at worst you've spent $20-$40k and have a few paper weights on your desk.
I will remember this. Thank you for instructions. Last question is will be plastic molding much cheaper.

Offline katotaka

  • Posts: 47
  • Location: Hong Kong
Re: Case
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 14 March 2020, 13:01:56 »

Last question is will be plastic molding much cheaper.
[/quote]

Yes, if you're making 10,000 of it.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Case
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 14 March 2020, 21:35:03 »
I will remember this. Thank you for instructions. Last question is will be plastic molding much cheaper.
You're welcome.

There is multiple ways to make almost anything, what needs to be done is calculate startup costs versus final cost.  Injection molding has the highest startup cost of any common form of manufacturing. Once you have the molds it's cheap unfortunately those molds can cost tens of thousands of dollars, per revision.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)