Switches for a BS fan?

[jseyfert3]

Hey all. New here but spent a lot of time reading here the last couple of days.

TL;DR: I really enjoy my Unicomp "Model M" keyboard, and I'm looking for switch suggestions that I may like if I like a BS keyboard.

Now the rest of it:

A coworker I used to have was into keyboards, and let me try out a few of them, including a model F (can't remember if he had a model M I tried). I had never used mechanical keyboards before and really liked them. The model F was my favorite, but due to the price of a used keyboard and the non-standard layout I passed. I decided to get a Unicomp, which I did in 2016. While not as nice as a model F, and with a harsher sound, it's still been my favorite non-F keyboard I've found so far, and my primary one for general computer work at home. I spend a lot of time typing long posts on various forums...

Anyway, I'm trying to get back into programming combined with basic circuit work. Did some Arduino in the past, now trying to get into Raspberry Pi. I'd like to try and combine this hobby with camping, which my wife and I do quite regularly (trailer, not tent camping). So I'm looking at a portable keyboard, but since I'd be coding I'd like to get a nice, but small keyboard, not some tiny cheap keyboard.

Started looking at modifying a Model M/Unicomp into a 60%. Saw a couple threads here of people that did that, but only one finished out of 3-4 threads I found that were doing it. I'm sure I could do that, if I really cared too, but while I love projects I'm terrible at finishing them. So I figured getting a good set of mechanical switches and pre-made PCB's/cases, or a premade keyboard, would be my best bet.

If I'm not modifying a model M into a 60%, then I think I prefer the 65% layout the best for a portable keyboard. With the extra column of keys vs a 60% it has a nice layout of arrow keys, and keeping a dedicated delete key vs shrinking the backspace is nice. I'm not super into looks, don't want to spend a fortune, and am find with either building or buying a keyboard. Something like the TADA68 seems like a decent keyboard, if I knew what switches I'd like to order it in.

So the question is: What type of switches is a BS keyboard fan likely to like?

And honestly, I'm not sure I'd like clicky switches. Yes, my Unicomp is noisy, but that's the nature of it. I find the sound rather harsh. The Model F had a much nicer sound, IMO. If I was getting a mechanical, non-BS keyboard I think I'd like a silent, or mostly silent, keyboard, with a nice feel, where "nice" means similar to a BS keyboard. Probably, at least. I haven't tried a lot of mechanical keyboards before.

Should I get a hotswap PCB and a few different types of switches, vs soldering in something I'm not certain I'd like?

And yes, I know modelfkeyboards.com is a thing. My coworker told me about that project 5 years ago. I think he ordered a keyboard long ago. I really like the model F, but I don't $400 like the model F. And I'm not a huge fan of the layouts either, cause I'm looking for arrow keys on a compact keyboard for portable use. I'd be tempted to get one for home use...if they had made a full size option. Full size or TKL, with model F construction, and I almost certainly would have bought one for home use.

[jacethesaltsculptor]

First off welcome to Geekhack.

I'm a huge BS guy, but I have my preferences that are outside of the IBM dome as well.

First thing I'd do, because one of the big things you mentioned is that you don't care for clicky that much is consider getting a switch tester. I don't know how much money you want to spend, but my switch tester helped me, and quite a few people I know figure out just where they land in MX compatible land.

The one I bought was this one: https://kbdfans.com/collections/switches-tester/products/kbdfans-72-switches-tester-all-in-one

you of course can do much smaller ones, for less cost.

For me, I wanted to see what was out there, but honestly, one of my big things about BS boards is the loud click. I just love it, so naturally I'm drawn to loud clicky tactile switches, such as Kailh Box Jades, and Navies.

I've seen people who like BS boards go quite a few different ways, it sounds to me, that other than that, you haven't felt many, I'd start there.

A hotswap PCB is for if you really feel like you won't be sure about your first set of switches, at least I feel like that'd be the case here. They are easy to setup, no soldering, but provide you the ability to be indecisive if you should so choose. Whereas you can get much more interesting layouts if you are willing to solder, but then you are more committed as you will need to unsolder if you aren't happy with your choice.

So I'd start with a switch tester of some variety. Similarly, once all the virus stuff has passed more, consider going to test keyboards if you are in a big enough metropolitan area, there are keyboard meetups, and you'll get a lot of chances to try switches at those places, or even in computer stores if you have them available. Just to get more experience.

I hope this gives you some guidance on the matter, and again, welcome to Geekhack.

[jseyfert3]

Thanks for the welcome!

I saw that tester, and the smaller testers, as I was browsing their site today. Of course I hate spending $70 on a switch tester when that could buy 2/3-1/2 of the keyboard I'm looking for.

The thing I read, and thought about, is that a tester, while great for single switches, is still quite a bit different than having a full keyboard and actually typing for a bit. I guess that's where keyboard meetups would be good.

I suppose a tester would at least narrow down the keys you wanted to a few, so instead of "which of these 72 keys should I get" it's "which of these three keys should I get". And at that point you could buy 2 or 3 sets of keys to try out on an actual keyboard.

Sound I'm a bit mixed on. I think in general I could do without it, or at least not as much of it, but there are days and times I enjoy the sound. There are also days and times it's slightly grating to me. But I think that may just be how I am. At times I like listening to music, but other times I get annoyed with music and just want silence. I'm not the sort of person that can listen to music for 8 hours straight every day as some of my coworkers do. Anyhow, ultimately I think I'm mixed, but I'd probably have to actually try clicky non-BS switches and compare them to silent ones to see which I actually preferred. I could totally see it happening that once I put a silent keyboard with good feel to the test for a few days I may actually decide I like the audible feedback.

The other thing I'm hoping for is to find a nice quiet switch so I can build a keyboard for work that doesn't drive my coworkers nuts but that I enjoy using a lot more than the Amazon Basics keyboard or whatever I have that my company provided. $2200 laptop but the (detached) keyboard is $10!   )

A work keyboard would likely also be a 65% as I find desk space at a premium. But a work keyboard is second to the project at hand. I've been thinking about a quiet keyboard for work since I was introduced to mechanical keyboards and got my Unicomp in 2016, but have been using terrible keyboards at work since then, so a few more months as I find something I will enjoy for the next 10 years isn't a long time.

[jacethesaltsculptor]

Im my personal experience with the lot of guys and girl in my office who recently made the switch, which was 5 of us, we all seemed to get quite lucky, the switches we chose we all wound up liking when we bought another 100 of them to put on a board.

I would say that with a tester, I wouldn't just test it once, I'd press them, press other ones, type on my main keyboard and go back. I took about two weeks to make a decision I was happy with because I felt my preferences change with my mood.

I also sat down and thought about what about IBM Keyboards felt good to me, and it wound up being a list like this:


1. The solid feel. (I love the feel of the metal plate, it's fantastic, makes the keyboard feel solid.)

2. The click, I like the click and feedback that the BS give me. And that they are a little harder to push down than alot of keys. I like a key that pushes back and is harder to push down. It also helps fat fingering keys, which I do frequently, but when the keys are harder to push, even if I goof, it's not as bad, and often the other pushed keys aren't even sensed.

3. The tactility, I like knowing that the second the key clicks, it actuates and sends it's signal, that's reliable and comfortable to me, so the closer that is to each other the better.

4. I like the travel distance of the Model M alot, it's what i feel the absolute perfect distance, especially for me. I don't like a short actuation like a speed silver, gold, or the other metal colors. I prefer it long, and with purpose.

5. The layout of the keyboard feels perfect. (This is more in relation to what layout you want to go for.) The key spacing on an IBM is flawless in my opinion, my rubber domes at work cause me no end of anguish because they are either chiclet, or poorly spaced 105 layouts.

------------

and so on.

If you can make a list of the things that you like from your Unicomp or in keyboards in general, people here can make recommendations based on just those specific attributes and possibly all of them together.

See how many of those you can list. 

This won't give you a definitive answer, but at least things to try.

----------

More on the tester, as this is a seperate way of going about this.

My first switch tester years was just the cherries, and ran me around 15 bucks. Here's one that has more switches than mine did for 13 shipped: A 9 switch Cherry tester. That'll give you an idea of what many switches are like, since quite a few are clones of just those, that'll give you a muscle feel to a lot of the words we use.

If you do a tester at all, press each key with all your fingers, and take your time. I didn't decide in an hour. But I can say that with a tester my decision was one I was very happy with.

[DrivenKeys]

My favorite aspect of my BS keyboards is that I rest my fingers on the keys without activating them. My MX Whites and Clears provide that as well. No Cherry switch will give you that BS click. I don't like BS noise: I think they sound like I'm making metal popcorn. It's that tactile click I can't resist; you can feel it perfectly, even with headphones drowning out the audio. The clicky Cherry switches aren't as tactile, the sound fools you into feeling more than is there. Clears/Browns are great for the quiet office, but not as fun. You feel a bump gradually grow, then falloff. You still feel the actuation point, it's just not as fun.

I like testers, but they don't replace typing. I might recommend you experiment with a couple less expensive pre-made boards, unless you want to use more rare switches. The modular route gets expensive, but allows so many options.

[Leslieann]

The closest you will get is Alps/Matias.
Box switches may get you closer, but for the most part the MX design doesn't lend itself well to a lot of tactility like a B.S. has, noise or no noise.

Beware Matias, it seems they seem to work best on their own boards, 3rd parties seem problematic so your options are limited, but you can take a board that uses Matias an install original Alps to fix it. Is that silly? Yes.

[yui]

for me i found that the speed bronze / pink from kailh feel quite close but i only tried them on a macropad so far, and are pretty light compared to the M i have and then there is the box navy switches but i think those are a bit too heavy and not not quite have the right force curve, but it might only be my imagination.

[envyy24]

Ah sorry did not read your first post fully, ignore me.

[jseyfert3]

Im my personal experience with the lot of guys and girl in my office who recently made the switch, which was 5 of us, we all seemed to get quite lucky, the switches we chose we all wound up liking when we bought another 100 of them to put on a board.

I would say that with a tester, I wouldn't just test it once, I'd press them, press other ones, type on my main keyboard and go back. I took about two weeks to make a decision I was happy with because I felt my preferences change with my mood.

I also sat down and thought about what about IBM Keyboards felt good to me, and it wound up being a list like this:


1. The solid feel. (I love the feel of the metal plate, it's fantastic, makes the keyboard feel solid.)

2. The click, I like the click and feedback that the BS give me. And that they are a little harder to push down than alot of keys. I like a key that pushes back and is harder to push down. It also helps fat fingering keys, which I do frequently, but when the keys are harder to push, even if I goof, it's not as bad, and often the other pushed keys aren't even sensed.

3. The tactility, I like knowing that the second the key clicks, it actuates and sends it's signal, that's reliable and comfortable to me, so the closer that is to each other the better.

4. I like the travel distance of the Model M alot, it's what i feel the absolute perfect distance, especially for me. I don't like a short actuation like a speed silver, gold, or the other metal colors. I prefer it long, and with purpose.

5. The layout of the keyboard feels perfect. (This is more in relation to what layout you want to go for.) The key spacing on an IBM is flawless in my opinion, my rubber domes at work cause me no end of anguish because they are either chiclet, or poorly spaced 105 layouts.

------------

and so on.

If you can make a list of the things that you like from your Unicomp or in keyboards in general, people here can make recommendations based on just those specific attributes and possibly all of them together.

See how many of those you can list. 

This won't give you a definitive answer, but at least things to try.

----------

More on the tester, as this is a seperate way of going about this.

My first switch tester years was just the cherries, and ran me around 15 bucks. Here's one that has more switches than mine did for 13 shipped: A 9 switch Cherry tester. That'll give you an idea of what many switches are like, since quite a few are clones of just those, that'll give you a muscle feel to a lot of the words we use.

If you do a tester at all, press each key with all your fingers, and take your time. I didn't decide in an hour. But I can say that with a tester my decision was one I was very happy with.

Hmm, wow. Quite honestly I don't think I've ever thought that hard about any keyboard ever before. My decision making process for buying the Unicomp was liking the mechanical switches I tried in general, loving the Model F but hating the non-modern layout and price, so when I discovered Unicomp made new "Model M" keyboards I bought one, liked it, and stopped thinking about it until I wanted to get additional keyboards where a full size Model MUnicomp (sorry, in my head Unicomp = Model M, but I know that isn't the case for most BS fans around here) doesn't work for one reason or another.

Mostly I see a keyboard as a tool. And when it comes to tools (like saws/drills/wrenches) I like a good balance of quality and price. This is my standpoint going into this, and I do think that I will not get into the keyboard world as a hobby like the majority of the members here. That said, there's no reason why I can't spend some time to figure out what I do like and find reasonable on the price/quality curve, or buy a keyboard or two before settling on one that satisfies me. Of course, that said, I did take the time to make an account and post on a keyboard enthusiast forum, so...

I'll take your advice of paying attention to what aspects I do and do not like about keyboards into account this weekend. I don't have too much here. Let's start with my work laptop since it's right next to me. It has a modern chiclet design and a whole 2 mm of travel at most. Ugh. This is probably about the worst style of keyboard for me. Luckily it's rare I actually do significant amounts of typing on the laptop keyboard, since it's usually docked when I'm doing the part of my work that requires significant typing. The lack of travel is part why I don't like it I think, though I also think it's too light for my taste (certainly two things completely at odds with my Unicomp). Also I don't think I like the flat keycaps. In fact, I don't think until the thought popped into my head that I didn't like the flat keys that I even realized the keys on my Unicomp had a vertically oriented cylindrical curve on the top. Huh. Amazing what you learn when you actually pay attention!

As far as other keyboards I have in my house that I could dig out and type for a while on this weekend include:

• Some genaric Dell keyboard with a more traditional keystyle (before the chiclet keyboard became all the rage)
• Logitech G110 keyboard, packed in a box somewhere from our recent move. Ugh! I can't believe I used that so long. I need to use it again to define how I hate it for typing, but I remember it's very mushy feeling. Worse than most typical rubberdome keyboards. I'm a casual gamer and I've always found it fine for gaming, even now, but for typing it's just terrible.
• My wife and I both have laptops packed in boxes somewhere we don't use often. I think my wife's laptop is not a chiclet design and actually has some texture and shape to the keys, so I should try and find that as part of this process of finding and listing my dislikes.

Thanks for the input all, and I'll report back when I can put some words to specific dislikes.

[jseyfert3]

Well, I didn't end up trying various keyboards over the weekend. I did read a bunch more threads on here though. In the future I think I'll focus on staying out of the Off Topic sub-forum though...

Anyhow, what I think I will do is get the Kailh 17 switch tester off kbdfans.com. It seems Kailh switches are overall liked more than Cherry. That seems to have a good selection of switches, while not being very expensive.

I'm not in a hurry so I'm going to do the slow shipping which will take forever. Between now and when I get that I'll keep considering what I like about keyboards and look into what PCB/case I would like to get once I decide on a switch to go with.

[fohat.digs]

Unicomp = Model M

and I do think that I will not get into the keyboard world as a hobby

Unicomp absolutely DOES manufacture true genuine Model M keyboards, even using the same machinery in the same factory that IBM and Lexmark once owned.

People who say things like "Unicomps aren't real Model Ms." are just being elitist prigs. True, Unicomp's quality control standards are lower, but that that does not make the products counterfeits or knock-offs. And there is certainly something to be said for buying a brand new product with warranty and support at a very fair and reasonable price.

Whenever there is a "hobby" it is all but certain that people will develop strong opinions and preferences, and debate them amongst themselves. You will have to tease out the actual technical information that you need from the relentless crowing of opinion.

[Maledicted]

The closest you will get is Alps/Matias.
Box switches may get you closer, but for the most part the MX design doesn't lend itself well to a lot of tactility like a B.S. has, noise or no noise.

Beware Matias, it seems they seem to work best on their own boards, 3rd parties seem problematic so your options are limited, but you can take a board that uses Matias an install original Alps to fix it. Is that silly? Yes.

I agree with this, other than maybe the actuation point being a little high on Alps SKCM clickies, but they're weighted perfectly, so this is not a concern in regard to much of anything other than preference. The lead up in weight to the bump stacks, rounds, and then smoothly breaks. SKCM is the only clicky switch I have found that shares this so closely with buckling spring. The sound is also very pleasant, being deep and bassy. I imagine that most people in an office will find it very nice. Much for many of these reasons, I usually rank SKCM blues just a bit higher than even the venerable capacitive buckling spring, in my personal tastes.

Box jades and navies are similar ... to a lesser degree. The high-pitched sound of navies may remind you too much of what you don't like about the sound of buckling spring, especially if you put them in a board that's already prone to pinging, but the weighting may be more suitable for an M user than jades. Jades are pleasantly bassy, but might be lighter than you are used to.

I can't speak for the speed bronze or pink switches, yet, unfortunately, but if they're anything like buckling spring as well, I certainly hope to ... if the switch tester I ordered 3 months ago will finally arrive.

I should add that if you're considering silent switches, envyy24 noticed that Kaihua just released some silent box switches into the wild. Brown and red/pink? I already ordered some of the pinks to play with. Should be way smoother than say, Cherry MX silent reds. How well their silencing properties compare will be interesting to see though.

[jseyfert3]

When you guys talk about Alps keys (especially the Alps SKCM that Maledicted said seem closest to a BS switch), are you talking about the original keys or are there modern clones that have the same feel? In other words, if I wanted to build a 65% keyboard with Alps keys would I have to buy an old keyboard and remove the switches over to a new PCB or can I buy new switches with the same feel?

[Maledicted]

When you guys talk about Alps keys (especially the Alps SKCM that Maledicted said seem closest to a BS switch), are you talking about the original keys or are there modern clones that have the same feel? In other words, if I wanted to build a 65% keyboard with Alps keys would I have to buy an old keyboard and remove the switches over to a new PCB or can I buy new switches with the same feel?

I believe that Leslieann covered this thoroughly enough in her previous post. I haven't felt Matias switches before, partly due to their reputation for ... unreliability, but that would probably be your closest alternative to pulling from an old board, or finding a place to buy the original switches NOS or used. I hear the originals are much better either way. I would be interested in comparing Matias switches to box jades myself, now that I think of it.

[fohat.digs]

The "old" Alps are called "complicated" (aka "pine") and those are the good ones. The next generation are known as "simplified" (aka "bamboo") and these are not as well respected. Matias switches are the modern rendition of the previous "simplified" Alps and are considered to be a couple of steps down.

[Leslieann]

When you guys talk about Alps keys (especially the Alps SKCM that Maledicted said seem closest to a BS switch), are you talking about the original keys or are there modern clones that have the same feel? In other words, if I wanted to build a 65% keyboard with Alps keys would I have to buy an old keyboard and remove the switches over to a new PCB or can I buy new switches with the same feel?

The only clones I've used are Matias, someone else would need to chime in on that.

Maledicted's advice on Jades and Navies is also good, if you can find them. I have a Matias based board as well as Alps but I'd have to dig them out and see how they compare.

[jseyfert3]

Thanks again all for the feedback. I'm not sure I want to start down the keyboard journey buying old keyboards and tearing them apart, but I'll probably at least keep on eye on eBay  and craigslist for any possible options. At least so I can try one of these fabled Alps keys at some point. I may also buy some Matias switches to see how they feel.

In the meantime I went ahead and ordered the Kailh 17 switch tester from kbdfans. That does include box jade and navy switches among others. I did the epacket so shipping is estimated at 35-65 days, so it'll be awhile, but I wasn't about to spend $20 to ship a $13 product. That's okay though cause spring is here and I've got quite a few outdoor projects lined up that will need a lot of time. I can always mess with keyboards when it gets hot and we don't want to be working outside anyway.

[jacethesaltsculptor]

Thanks again all for the feedback. I'm not sure I want to start down the keyboard journey buying old keyboards and tearing them apart, but I'll probably at least keep on eye on eBay  and craigslist for any possible options. At least so I can try one of these fabled Alps keys at some point. I may also buy some Matias switches to see how they feel.

In the meantime I went ahead and ordered the Kailh 17 switch tester from kbdfans. That does include box jade and navy switches among others. I did the epacket so shipping is estimated at 35-65 days, so it'll be awhile, but I wasn't about to spend $20 to ship a $13 product. That's okay though cause spring is here and I've got quite a few outdoor projects lined up that will need a lot of time. I can always mess with keyboards when it gets hot and we don't want to be working outside anyway.

glad to have helped you down the journey man.  We'll be here if you get more of the itch, or have other questions of course.

I'm very happy with my Kailh Jades, though I had originally planned to get Navies. I'll be curious to hear what another Buckling spring fan says about them.

[jseyfert3]

Got the switch tester finally. Jades and Navies definitely feel the best to me. Blue and the others are a bit too light, and I prefer the sound of the box switches to the regular ones. I don't mind the sound actually. It is not as "pingy" as my Model M, though they obviously aren't mounted in a board yet.

Between Jades and Navies I'm not quite sure, I'm thinking Navy may actually be a bit stiffer than I'd like, but really either one would probably make a nice keyboard (for me).

For silent switches, if I want to go that route, the Box Royals seem to be the best. That said, none of the non-clicky switches seemed to feel anywhere near as good as the clicky ones. Not sure if that's the physical feel or the fact that the sound adds more to the typing experience than I thought it did.

I also may be interested in trying a linear switch for gaming, perhaps the Box Black or Red switches.

Hmm. Lots to think about still.

[Maledicted]

Got the switch tester finally. Jades and Navies definitely feel the best to me. Blue and the others are a bit too light, and I prefer the sound of the box switches to the regular ones. I don't mind the sound actually. It is not as "pingy" as my Model M, though they obviously aren't mounted in a board yet.

Between Jades and Navies I'm not quite sure, I'm thinking Navy may actually be a bit stiffer than I'd like, but really either one would probably make a nice keyboard (for me).

For silent switches, if I want to go that route, the Box Royals seem to be the best. That said, none of the non-clicky switches seemed to feel anywhere near as good as the clicky ones. Not sure if that's the physical feel or the fact that the sound adds more to the typing experience than I thought it did.

I also may be interested in trying a linear switch for gaming, perhaps the Box Black or Red switches.

Hmm. Lots to think about still.

I'm glad you like the box jades and navies. They're really the best modern clickies around in my opinion. The first to actually be able to compete with the vintage giants of old. The navies that I have mounted in a K65 ping quite a bit (which I actually like), especially if I type with vigor, which you're almost forced to do with such a heavy switch. My Das Pro 4 with the same switches doesn't seem to noticeably ping, to my ears. The Corsair has an exposed aluminum plate, and the exposed plate Corsairs are known to ping even with linears. The material and thickness of the plate, the material, thickness, and volume of the plate, lubricant configuration, the surface on which the board is placed, and the use or lack of dampening material inside of the case will all be factors as to how it will sound with a given switch. You'll see that even between different versions of the Model F keyboard, as some had metal lower cases, some had plastic, some had thick zinc cases. Every series sounds just a bit different even though the mechanism is entirely the same.

I love both jades and navies for their respective qualities as well. The balance between tactility and spring weight of the navies seems perfect. The tactile event is somehow oddly more crisp feeling than the rest of the family, and there's something magical about the sound even though it is higher-pitched than jades and pinks. The jades have a less jarring weighting for people accustomed to more traditional weightings in switches, the tactile event is accentuated a bit as the switch basically just drops once you overcome it, and they can be satisfyingly bassy for a clicky switch, all of which make them very similar to good old Alps switches. If you like capacitive buckling spring, the box switches with thinner click bars may be contenders as well. I have yet to try them, but people seem to love the pinks quite a bit. I find the very slight, yet crisp, tactility of box whites to be very close to capacitive buckling spring. The glaring difference is that the force necessary to buckle the spring seems to grow pretty quickly just before the tactile event on an F, and that's absent on all click bar switches, and replacement springs for them, that I have yet tried.

Box royals aren't really a silent switch, just tactile. They'll still make some noise when bottoming out. There are dampened switches, both new and old, that would minimize this if desired. Topre, which is tactile, is also already relatively quiet by its nature.

I think that it is (probably) generally accepted that tactiles are always going to be a compromise between tactility and sound. Clickies are, for the most part, unconcerned with whether or not the tactile event generates sound, and what that sound may be. Tactiles are handicapped by the fact that the tactile event usually must be nearly silent, so hoops need to be jumped through in order to make that happen. For this reason, I don't think that there will ever be a single tactile that feels better than even a smattering of the best clickies ever made. Feel, of course, is subjective. Some people actually prefer the usual rounded bump, etc, of a tactile to the crisp/sharp click of a clicky. I think that anybody inclined to like the feel of a clicky though is unlikely to find a tactile that can compare for them, and that a lot of the people who do go with tactiles or linears are doing so as a compromise out of concern for those around them who may not like the sound of their keyboard otherwise.

I find MX reds to be too light (I have used them exclusively for gaming since 2014 or so), and box reds are pretty similar. I accidentally actuate keys resting my hands on them from time to time. I know just last night I was playing Mafia 3 at 2 in the morning, and I kept driving towards the barriers on the highway because I was accidentally pressing D as I would almost doze off, without realizing it. Box linears are much smoother than MX though. Based just on trying them on a tester, I think Gateron yellows are a good compromise for that application, between reds and blacks. Gateron linears are also, to me, just a bit smoother than box linears. The blacks are far too heavy for most people without causing fatigue to set in fairly quickly, although I imagine this would be less of a problem specifically with gaming. Personally, I still want to look at some of the more expensive/boutique linears for this purpose as well, like NK creams, Gateron inks, etc. Maybe even dampened switches, partly because, why not with linears, partly because I feel that noise from a keyboard may be distracting from the immersion in the game. I still found it fairly entertaining briefly using my F107 to play Mafia 3 last night though.

[jamster]

> So the question is: What type of switches is a BS keyboard fan likely to like?


I'm a BS fan, though I no longer use those boards because of noise and space constraints.

My preferred switches share some of the characteristics of high tactility, and a rapid force falloff after actuation. They're basically ergo clear with 65g springs and Topre 55. These are my current boards and I've been happy with them for 5+ years. I might be unusual in making this comparison though as it's not one I've seen echoed by other Model M owners.

I've had white(?) Alps and didn't enjoy them all that much, too wobbly.

[Maledicted]

> So the question is: What type of switches is a BS keyboard fan likely to like?


I'm a BS fan, though I no longer use those boards because of noise and space constraints.

My preferred switches share some of the characteristics of high tactility, and a rapid force falloff after actuation. They're basically ergo clear with 65g springs and Topre 55. These are my current boards and I've been happy with them for 5+ years. I might be unusual in making this comparison though as it's not one I've seen echoed by other Model M owners.

I've had white(?) Alps and didn't enjoy them all that much, too wobbly.

Well, MX tactiles and Topre are very different in feel from buckling spring. I'm actually using a 55g Topre board at this very moment, since I literally just got one in a few days ago to see what all of the fuss is about. I'm honestly still not sure what the appeal is. They still just feel like really refined/smooth rubber domes to me. I could see how somebody that likes MX tactiles would like Topre, and vice versa.

I actually consider buckling spring to have relatively low tactility. It can seem greater than it is because of how the weighting of the spring seems to sharply increase just before it buckles, but the tactile event itself is very sharp and subtle. Kailh box switches are the only modern thing I have felt that comes close in that regard. It might even have to be the thin click bars to get the closest possible tactile feel. It would sure be nice to find a spring that could go into box clickies that would simulate that spring getting stiff just before it buckles though.

[jamster]

> So the question is: What type of switches is a BS keyboard fan likely to like?


I'm a BS fan, though I no longer use those boards because of noise and space constraints.

My preferred switches share some of the characteristics of high tactility, and a rapid force falloff after actuation. They're basically ergo clear with 65g springs and Topre 55. These are my current boards and I've been happy with them for 5+ years. I might be unusual in making this comparison though as it's not one I've seen echoed by other Model M owners.

I've had white(?) Alps and didn't enjoy them all that much, too wobbly.

Well, MX tactiles and Topre are very different in feel from buckling spring. I'm actually using a 55g Topre board at this very moment, since I literally just got one in a few days ago to see what all of the fuss is about. I'm honestly still not sure what the appeal is. They still just feel like really refined/smooth rubber domes to me. I could see how somebody that likes MX tactiles would like Topre, and vice versa.

I actually consider buckling spring to have relatively low tactility. It can seem greater than it is because of how the weighting of the spring seems to sharply increase just before it buckles, but the tactile event itself is very sharp and subtle. Kailh box switches are the only modern thing I have felt that comes close in that regard. It might even have to be the thin click bars to get the closest possible tactile feel. It would sure be nice to find a spring that could go into box clickies that would simulate that spring getting stiff just before it buckles though.

Topre took a long time to grow on me. There's absolutely nothing exciting about it. I'd say BS and Alps are a little 'exciting'. I don't really care about the sound, which some people seem to make a big deal about. And yeah, I agree they're just rubber domes, but rubber domes done right.

I'd suggest using it for a couple weeks then going back to other boards to see if you develop a preference. 

[Maledicted]

> So the question is: What type of switches is a BS keyboard fan likely to like?


I'm a BS fan, though I no longer use those boards because of noise and space constraints.

My preferred switches share some of the characteristics of high tactility, and a rapid force falloff after actuation. They're basically ergo clear with 65g springs and Topre 55. These are my current boards and I've been happy with them for 5+ years. I might be unusual in making this comparison though as it's not one I've seen echoed by other Model M owners.

I've had white(?) Alps and didn't enjoy them all that much, too wobbly.

Well, MX tactiles and Topre are very different in feel from buckling spring. I'm actually using a 55g Topre board at this very moment, since I literally just got one in a few days ago to see what all of the fuss is about. I'm honestly still not sure what the appeal is. They still just feel like really refined/smooth rubber domes to me. I could see how somebody that likes MX tactiles would like Topre, and vice versa.

I actually consider buckling spring to have relatively low tactility. It can seem greater than it is because of how the weighting of the spring seems to sharply increase just before it buckles, but the tactile event itself is very sharp and subtle. Kailh box switches are the only modern thing I have felt that comes close in that regard. It might even have to be the thin click bars to get the closest possible tactile feel. It would sure be nice to find a spring that could go into box clickies that would simulate that spring getting stiff just before it buckles though.

Topre took a long time to grow on me. There's absolutely nothing exciting about it. I'd say BS and Alps are a little 'exciting'. I don't really care about the sound, which some people seem to make a big deal about. And yeah, I agree they're just rubber domes, but rubber domes done right.

I'd suggest using it for a couple weeks then going back to other boards to see if you develop a preference.

I like clickies. If I had any preference towards tactiles, especially something like MX clears, I could see maybe swinging towards Topre. I'm not thinking I'll be forsaking clickies for Topre, but I will continue to use it daily whenever I have the opportunity at home for as long as I can manage. I already did use it all this past weekend, when I wasn't using my K70 for game controls anyway. I do imagine it would have been too stiff to adjust to if I wasn't already used to using Matias, Alps, and Kailh thick clicks very regularly.

[jamster]

I like clickies. If I had any preference towards tactiles, especially something like MX clears, I could see maybe swinging towards Topre. I'm not thinking I'll be forsaking clickies for Topre, but I will continue to use it daily whenever I have the opportunity at home for as long as I can manage. I already did use it all this past weekend, when I wasn't using my K70 for game controls anyway. I do imagine it would have been too stiff to adjust to if I wasn't already used to using Matias, Alps, and Kailh thick clicks very regularly.

I also like clickies, but have pesky constraints such as not driving the people around me nuts

I'm also quite picky about the clicks. Model Ms and Alps sound good. MX clicks sound horribly high pitched and tinny.

It'll be interesting to see whether you develop any preference towards Topre though. I'm using one as my work from home board, and just don't think about it most of the time. I will register something with most my other boards (wobbly keys on the ergo clear, light actuation on the topre clone, compromised key positioning on the BTC, or the machine gun rattle of my Ms). But the 55g Topre is just generally pleasant with nothing wrong about it, and I only notice it when reading threads about keyboards

[Maledicted]

I like clickies. If I had any preference towards tactiles, especially something like MX clears, I could see maybe swinging towards Topre. I'm not thinking I'll be forsaking clickies for Topre, but I will continue to use it daily whenever I have the opportunity at home for as long as I can manage. I already did use it all this past weekend, when I wasn't using my K70 for game controls anyway. I do imagine it would have been too stiff to adjust to if I wasn't already used to using Matias, Alps, and Kailh thick clicks very regularly.

I also like clickies, but have pesky constraints such as not driving the people around me nuts

I'm also quite picky about the clicks. Model Ms and Alps sound good. MX clicks sound horribly high pitched and tinny.

It'll be interesting to see whether you develop any preference towards Topre though. I'm using one as my work from home board, and just don't think about it most of the time. I will register something with most my other boards (wobbly keys on the ergo clear, light actuation on the topre clone, compromised key positioning on the BTC, or the machine gun rattle of my Ms). But the 55g Topre is just generally pleasant with nothing wrong about it, and I only notice it when reading threads about keyboards

I'm picky about the clicks now as well, now anyway, when I can help it. MX sounds terrible, agreed. Outemu and Gateron clickies are better though, at least. You should really try box jades and/or pinks if you have not. They're the only modern clickies that feel and sound the part of the clickies of old.

In my limited experience, I can agree with your sentiments, although my 87u seems to have some somewhat noisy stabilizers (which I care nothing about anyway). It is otherwise stable and just exudes not just quality, but quality control and precision manufacturing.

Are you implying that there's something wrong with the machine gun rattle of a Model M?

Personally, I like all of the random quirks of a board so long as they don't overwhelm the experience, namely thunderous clicks. I think of most of it as endearing personality. Squeaky stabilizers? Cool. Ringing ping? Great. Shiny caps? Nice, well-worn. Etc, etc. I will posit that Model Fs are perfect just the way they are, even in those regards, unless their pitch and ping bothers someone. Perfectly smooth, stable travel to a t, smooth, satisfying, crisp clicks. Those, of course, with inflation, should be monetarily out of the league of even a Topre board though.

I'll try to remember to keep you informed on the matter of conversion to the Church of Topre. I don't think that's happening, but I imagine my appreciation for Topre can only grow, and it is already not lacking as it is.