Author Topic: What's so great about USB C  (Read 5040 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ddrfraser1

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 342
  • Location: Smashville
  • 10u > 7u > 6.25u
What's so great about USB C
« on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 09:57:57 »
I've been at this hobby for a while and seen several posts and videos where people crap on everything that isn't USB C. I could really care less what the interface is. They all seem to make my keyboard click just fine. For that matter, why do people prefer PS/2?

What am I missing?
muchas gracias  ;D

Offline Tom_Kazansky

  • Posts: 369
  • Location: Vietnam
  • Oblivion Knight
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 10:43:02 »
why would people prefer PS/2? you must restart your PC everytime you plug the board in.  :rolleyes:

about Type C USB: yes, it does seem to be a bit over-engineered but I like it because it's reversible and more reliable than the Mini/Micro (they become loose pretty fast)
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Arthur C. Clarke


Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1487
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 10:58:38 »
why would people prefer PS/2? you must restart your PC everytime you plug the board in.  :rolleyes:

about Type C USB: yes, it does seem to be a bit over-engineered but I like it because it's reversible and more reliable than the Mini/Micro (they become loose pretty fast)

That's just it..it is the reliability...plus a bit more future proof....it is a better interface.

Does it really matter?  Not really..but if you're building a keyboard NOW I'm not sure it makes sense to use anything but as the cost is insignificant..I think that's the complaint, why use old tech when there is no advantage to it?


Offline Sepharis

  • Posts: 19
  • Location: Scotland
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 11:49:50 »
A few reasons for USB-C.

Firstly it's a good middle-ground between full sized computers/laptops/consoles and smaller phones/chargers/tablets. Without it you'd see USB A on the former and USB micro/mini on the latter. Because USB-C exists we can just have C on everything, which saves using dongles, having two or three cables for the same devices etc.

Secondly because USB-C is reversible, which is a minor issue with type A.

Thirdly, USB-C has been extended on modern laptops at times to be used as direct charging ports and for thunderbolt-3 ports, both of which can be extremely useful (Granted thunderbolt 3 will be outdated eventually by usb-4.0).

 Fourthly, and this is just personal, USB C looks much nicer than USB A because the size of the connector head and the cable are more comparable.

Offline suicidal_orange

  • * Global Moderator
  • Posts: 3890
  • Location: England
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 13:05:28 »
Reasons for USB C in keyboards:

1 - you can plug the board in even when you're too drunk to notice the connector is upside-down

2 - you can use enough LEDs fo backlighting to light an entire room

3 - you can add an integrated hub that can actually power things

As you can see only 3 is actually useful (you shouldn't be risking a nice board under the influence) and no-one does that, designers just put on a more expensive connector on the PCB and connect the same USB2 controller chip to it as would work just fine on a USB2 mini or micro.

PS/2?  It works with NKRO in all situations with no drivers.  'cause you never know when you'll find yourself gaming in BIOS...
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 May 2020, 13:24:23 by suicidal_orange »
120/100g linear Zealio R1  
GMK Hyperfuse
'Split everything' perfection  
MX Clear
SA Hack'd by Geeks     
EasyAVR mod
MX Brown 30g, HHKBish
Vortex OEM PBT
for See how the other half lives challenge!

Online yui

  • Posts: 411
  • Location: 127.0.0.1 (in azerty)
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 13:22:24 »
why would people prefer PS/2? you must restart your PC everytime you plug the board in.  :rolleyes:
that was true of older controllers later models did not have that problem, the main reason i keep a ps/2 keyboard ready at all time is that it is pretty much universally compatible with everything, even usb hid is still not always recognized in bioses and some random integrated systems that still uses windows CE 6 (yeah those are still built and sold), if you are the computer guy you need at least one reliable ps/2 board, cause someone will bring to you an old-ish pc to fix and you will need it, otherwise now that we have fast usb polling rates ps/2 is not that useful anymore just edge cases. a few years back though ps/2 had a latency advantage over usb because of the slow polling of usb compared to the interrupt driven ps/2, technically ps/2 should still be faster but the margin is now too low to make a difference.

as for my take on usb-C, it seems sturdier than micro and is reversible, so count me in, cause you always plug usb-A backward at least twice before finding the correct orientation :) and having one common connector for most things will make it easier on everyone.
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline envyy24

  • Posts: 152
  • Location: UK
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 13:54:24 »
why would people prefer PS/2? you must restart your PC everytime you plug the board in.  :rolleyes:



P/s2 for keyboard is superior than usb in every way :)

Offline VP

  • Posts: 40
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 13:57:54 »
why do people prefer PS/2?
You can turn on your computer from the PS/2 keyboard. PS/2 is right thing for desktop computer.

Offline ddrfraser1

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 342
  • Location: Smashville
  • 10u > 7u > 6.25u
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 15:12:09 »
why do people prefer PS/2?
You can turn on your computer from the PS/2 keyboard. PS/2 is right thing for desktop computer.

Did not know that. That's awesome.

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1399
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 15:25:56 »
ps/2 and mini USB all the way. Micro USB was an abomination and I have already seen one totally destroyed type c connector on a student laptop, with another having some failure I could not physically identify preventing it from being able to output video anymore. I don't care about reversibility if the design is good enough to get the right way around every time no matter what anyway (mini USB). I have never had a mini USB connector come loose on me, they've always stayed as stiff as a rock. I specifically ordered a DZ60 keyboard with no hot swap sockets, and separate hot swap sockets to solder to it, just because the hot swap version did not offer the mini USB interface.

I will disagree somewhat on ps/2 compatibility. This very computer seems to hate ps/2, and sometimes you need to jump through some hoops to even get ps/2 keyboards working in modern Windows these days ... but then there's Hasu's and Soarer's wonderful firmwares, so ...

Offline DALExSNAIL

  • The User Formerly Known as 'Formerly DudeSnail'
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: I am a geek!!
  • Location: Myrtle Beach, SC
  • 𝖋𝖚𝖈𝖐 𝖆𝖑𝖕𝖘
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 15:27:46 »
easy to plug in hole, it all that matter

Offline VP

  • Posts: 40
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 15:37:46 »
This very computer seems to hate ps/2, and sometimes you need to jump through some hoops to even get ps/2 keyboards working in modern Windows these days ...
I have never had a problem with PS/2 in modern Windows these days. Neither 7, or 8, or 8.1, or 10.

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1399
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 15:45:03 »
This very computer seems to hate ps/2, and sometimes you need to jump through some hoops to even get ps/2 keyboards working in modern Windows these days ...
I have never had a problem with PS/2 in modern Windows these days. Neither 7, or 8, or 8.1, or 10.

I have had problems in both 7 and 10, at home and at work. Both in terms of drivers, and registry settings. I also use a lot of weird old AT and ps/2 keyboards. I don't use 8 at all, so I can't comment on that, but 10 is practically just 8 with an overhaul. An F AT is currently working perfectly at one location at work, with Windows 7. I don't recall having to do anything to that system to make it so, but I seem to rarely be that lucky with newer hardware. That system is still rocking a Core 2 Duo. The i5 system at the other location I'm at the most took some tweaking, but it works on Windows 7. I believe I had ps/2 boards working on this computer at some point, before I wiped and reinstalled, but I haven't put in the effort to resolve it again on the fresh Windows 10 install. Then, some systems, just work perfectly by default with weird old boards that literally don't work at all with other systems, like my Beige label Z-150, which works perfectly with 2 computers that I own, and no others that I have tested with (I don't even know how many I own). One of the ones that it did work with originally shipped with Windows XP, and was still running it.

Offline Findecanor

  • Posts: 4624
  • Location: Koriko
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 16:19:41 »
I think that most people who advocate USB-C do it because they want the world to use only one cable, so they wouldn't need so many different ones.

For that matter, why do people prefer PS/2?
Myths.

1. People used to believe that you couldn't do N-key rollover over USB... Well that was partially true, because first it took a while before the industry figured out how, and second there were some stupid bugs in some host USB stacks which made early attempts at NKRO over USB incompatible with them. And many keyboards listed as being NKRO are actually still only 6KRO over USB.

2. PC gamers look for the maximum speed, and the theoretical speed for a single key press over PS/2 is allowed to be slightly faster. Actually the allowed rate of PS/2 (key press per second) is a range within which the more fixed max rate of Full-Speed USB (frame per second) lies, so ... a PS/2 keyboard could actually have a lower transfer rate than a modern mechanical USB keyboard.

But that is still only transfer rate, not latency. In practice, there are many other factors within the controller that can add latency. It is likely that the microcontroller in a vintage PS/2 keyboard is much slower than a 32-bit ARM microcontroller in a modern keyboard for everything but the protocol itself.
Not that there isn't room for speed improvements in modern microcontrollers: for one thing, much USB hardware require packets to be put in a queue whereas the USB protocol is based on polling¸ so a packet may have to wait in its queue for several microseconds before the host polls it — thus being several microseconds stale when it is polled instead of being the last recorded state.
I think that a lot of the USB hardware (and some of the HID protocol itself) had been inspired by the PS/2 in the first place — where you had to queue up input. I would speculate that the rationale for some could have been to make it easier to adapt devices to USB back in the day when USB was introduced.

And BTW, it is also possible to run a keyboard over High-Speed USB which is even faster, but I have only seen that done by an enthusiast.

You can turn on your computer from the PS/2 keyboard.
You can do that with USB too.
Both types of ports have to be powered to allow this, but a USB device connected to an "off" computer is required to go into "suspend" mode where it must draw only a very small current. PS/2 does not have a low-power mode.
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 May 2020, 16:24:38 by Findecanor »
Man must shape his tools lest they shape him
-- Arthur Miller

Offline VP

  • Posts: 40
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 17:13:00 »
You can turn on your computer from the PS/2 keyboard.
You can do that with USB too.
Both types of ports have to be powered to allow this, but a USB device connected to an "off" computer is required to go into "suspend" mode where it must draw only a very small current. PS/2 does not have a low-power mode.
Cold boot with PS/2 keyboard is simple, just settings in BIOS. I don’t think it is so with USB keyboard.

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3230
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 21:16:21 »
USB and PS2 can both cold boot a system, however the motherboard (and possibly the keyboard) need to support it.
Windows standby and hibernation all but killed it and Win10 dealt the killing blow, you really don't want to leave Win10 turned off.


A PS2 keyboard can hot swap, but usually only after it's been initialized by bios and the driver.
If the keyboard wasn't connected at boot it will (usually) not work when you plug it in. Once one has been connected you can usually hot swap just fine but it usually needs to be there at boot to get started.

The reason it remains popular with gamers is that it's interrupt based, it interrupts the cpu and says it's doing something, whereas USB asks the keyboard if it's doing something then waits for an answer. This whole argument is based on old ideas, yes the keyboard could interrupt the cpu, and in the early days of USB this may have made a difference, but today it's all controlled through the chipset which decides what gets priority so it isn't going handle it the same way as it used to be handled. It may still be more responsive but we've reached a point where it no longer matters. If you can't tell a wireless usb mouse has lag what makes you think a wired keyboard is going to be noticeable?

PS2 also has an issue where the protocol changed over the years, it used to supply a ton of amperage, that's been chopped way down. This is why much older PS2 boards such as the earlier Model Ms have problems on newer motherboards, they don't give it enough power. This is probably related to the above.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | GMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline Findecanor

  • Posts: 4624
  • Location: Koriko
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 22:03:30 »
A PS2 keyboard can hot swap, but usually only after it's been initialized by bios and the driver.
If the keyboard wasn't connected at boot it will (usually) not work when you plug it in. Once one has been connected you can usually hot swap just fine but it usually needs to be there at boot to get started.
Hot-plugging a PS/2 keyboard can cause a power spike at the motherboard side. Motherboards use fuses to protect against power spikes on the PS/2 interface. Really old motherboards have fuses that could be difficult to repair, but newer motherboards have breakers that are just reset when you restart the machine ...
Man must shape his tools lest they shape him
-- Arthur Miller

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 431
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 23:29:33 »
The reason it remains popular with gamers
 
 
I don't think I've ever seen a professional or even casual player use a PS/2 board in the past decade. The <1 ms response time and 6 to NKRO on any decent mechanical keyboard makes the theoretical advantage of PS/2 irrelevant.

Offline TheAlchemist-404

  • Posts: 4
  • Location: Mexico
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 03:01:14 »
To put my two cents:
 usb-c is more reliable on the long term, they also keep retrocompatibility so adapters can be easier to deal with older versions of usb, on keyboards with a lot of lights (im talking really really bright matrix of leds, or beefy usb passthrough) they can pull more current than usual at its brightest so usb-c can communicate with the host to pull the energy necessary, the ones that include more ports they can also be brought by the same connection at full speed, adding some statements from the EU to make a single standard for cellphone charging and data plugs to reduce e-waste more manufacturers are making cables more available
As for ps/2 is because its dead simple to use as long as you have a port most modern devices should be able to hot plug and use the device no driver setup needed, some use them because how the ps/2 protocol works by pushing updates to the host instead of pulling the update wich technically does give you a lower latency but compared to modern communication standards the benefits are small

Sent from my CAM-L03 using Tapatalk


Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3230
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 03:03:18 »
I don't think I've ever seen a professional or even casual player use a PS/2 board in the past decade. The <1 ms response time and 6 to NKRO on any decent mechanical keyboard makes the theoretical advantage of PS/2 irrelevant.
It's long been the argument for PS2, it's also why "gaming" motherboards still have them while lower end tend to not. The PS2 socket pretty much died at one point but gamers rose up and asked some mobo companies to bring it back. That said, I agree with you, I doubt many use it today and companies are just stuck, there's so little left to differentiate motherboards they can't afford to lose a feature no matter how useless it may be.

I don't recommend using pros as an example of what to buy and what not to buy.
They get paid to promote stuff and there's also many instances where pros (not just gaming, but all sports) where not using what they claimed to be using. Those not being paid also fall prey to trends, good or bad.


usb-c is more reliable on the long term, they also keep retrocompatibility so adapters can be easier to deal with older versions of usb
It's not nearly as backwards compatible as you think.
Right now it is because you are going from Type C to Type A, reverse that and it gets complicated. In this direction Type-C breaks a lot of compatibility.
« Last Edit: Sat, 23 May 2020, 03:07:56 by Leslieann »
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | GMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline TheAlchemist-404

  • Posts: 4
  • Location: Mexico
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 03:08:06 »

It's long been the argument for PS2, it's also why "gaming" motherboards still have them while lower end tend to not. The PS2 socket pretty much died at one point but gamers rose up and asked some mobo companies to bring it back. That said, I agree with you, I doubt many use it today and companies are just stuck, there's so little left to differentiate motherboards they can't afford to lose a feature no matter how useless it may be.

[/quote]

And yet due to segmentation we still can't have a midrange motherboard with enough USB ports

Sent from my CAM-L03 using Tapatalk


Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3230
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 03:35:48 »
And yet due to segmentation we still can't have a midrange motherboard with enough USB ports
Buy a hub and don't look back.
A hub is convenient, saves your ports from wear and tear and it can pass way more power.

Most people aren't aware but Intel limits the ports so as not to flood the CPU and chipset, AMD ignored this and it's an issue in some (rare) situations.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | GMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline VP

  • Posts: 40
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 03:45:21 »
however the motherboard (and possibly the keyboard) need to support it.
Most of motherboards do not support it.
Who needs PS/2 hot swap? My keyboard hasn't been unplugged from my computer for years. If I need to connect another keyboard, I connect it to a turned off computer. If you want to plug in your computer keyboard one by one, then PS/2 is not the right one.

Offline envyy24

  • Posts: 152
  • Location: UK
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #23 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 04:00:11 »

It's long been the argument for PS2, it's also why "gaming" motherboards still have them while lower end tend to not. The PS2 socket pretty much died at one point but gamers rose up and asked some mobo companies to bring it back. That said, I agree with you, I doubt many use it today and companies are just stuck, there's so little left to differentiate motherboards they can't afford to lose a feature no matter how useless it may be.


Are you sure about this? Because in some cases your usb keyboard can't work directly on BIOS config while ps2 port guarantee that. Moreover, I know companies that do not allow staffs to use usb so all peripherals must use ps2 ports. Yes gamers are no doubt a big market, but i sincerely doubt that everything must revolve around them.

Offline VP

  • Posts: 40
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #24 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 04:49:45 »
It's long been the argument for PS2, it's also why "gaming" motherboards still have them while lower end tend to not.
Rather High End gaming motherboards nowadays are without PS/2. Lower end motherboards are still with PS/2.

Offline VP

  • Posts: 40
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 05:05:02 »
Buy a hub and don't look back.
PS/2 is good. If there is a PS/2, it is not wrong to use it.

Online yui

  • Posts: 411
  • Location: 127.0.0.1 (in azerty)
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 07:02:06 »
PS2 also has an issue where the protocol changed over the years, it used to supply a ton of amperage, that's been chopped way down. This is why much older PS2 boards such as the earlier Model Ms have problems on newer motherboards, they don't give it enough power. This is probably related to the above.
i do 2nd that though, i burnt a fuse on a modern motherboard with an old IBM M122...

 
I don't think I've ever seen a professional or even casual player use a PS/2 board in the past decade. The <1 ms response time and 6 to NKRO on any decent mechanical keyboard makes the theoretical advantage of PS/2 irrelevant.
not so long ago (5 years or so i think) counter strike tournaments only used PS/2 keyboards and CRT displays

I know companies that do not allow staffs to use usb so all peripherals must use ps2 ports.
yeah for security reasons as USB is universal (the U) and PS/2 is specialized you can't do the same tricks with ps/2 that you can with usb to load malware or log keys, it is much harder over ps/2

Buy a hub and don't look back.
hubs can cause issues too with data rates and power draw of some devices or even out right incompatibilities.
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3230
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 22:42:32 »
Are you sure about this? Because in some cases your usb keyboard can't work directly on BIOS config while ps2 port guarantee that. Moreover, I know companies that do not allow staffs to use usb so all peripherals must use ps2 ports. Yes gamers are no doubt a big market, but i sincerely doubt that everything must revolve around them.
When USB first came into use, it had issues with bios but that hasn't been true for a long time.
The reason it gets ignored by UEFI today is because someone enabled Fast Boot in the UEFI setting, in doing so, the board ignores all USB devices in order to boot faster, as a result they don't function until Windows loads a driver. It's been this way since we switched to UEFI. Early implementations of EFI (note the lack of a U) had issues with it but that whole system was just a quick transition (2nd gen Core I series) and many boards offered EFI and traditional Bios. Most, if not all boards now offer a hybrid that loads some USB devices and some always load the keyboard regardless of setting.

Gamers were a big market for PS2, not really so much anymore. PS2 came out of the grave because of them and then fell by the wayside again shortly after, it's now marching down through the ranks to low end before it disappears again, this time probably for good.

Why is a corporation buying an enthusiast motherboard?
On corporate systems it never died, ps2 is still supported at the chipset, so is the serial port. Corporations have a use for them, the average home user (and gamer at this point) does not.


Buy a hub and don't look back.
PS/2 is good. If there is a PS/2, it is not wrong to use it.
You are mixing two topics that have nothing to do with one another.


hubs can cause issues too with data rates and power draw of some devices or even out right incompatibilities.
Absolutely, but with a hub you can leave more of your computer's ports open for those situations where you do have issues.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | GMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline VP

  • Posts: 40
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 24 May 2020, 05:03:13 »
You are mixing two topics that have nothing to do with one another.
If the motherboard has few USB ports, then using the PS2 will save one USB port, perhaps eliminating the need for a USB hub.

Offline jamster

  • Posts: 813
  • Location: Asia
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #29 on: Sun, 24 May 2020, 06:17:04 »
You are mixing two topics that have nothing to do with one another.
If the motherboard has few USB ports, then using the PS2 will save one USB port, perhaps eliminating the need for a USB hub.

I'd like to think that most people who are deeply into mechanical keyboards would have first developed an interest in decent PC hardware, which probably means motherboards which have more USB ports that you could shake a stick at.

I've got a USB PS/2 port on the back of my desktop, it's never even occurred to me to use it, even though I have 2 PS/2 boards at home. I just don't want to take the PS/2 to USB converters off the keyboard cables because I know I'll just lose the damn things.

Fixed a typo months after the original post.
« Last Edit: Fri, 16 October 2020, 05:24:11 by jamster »

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1399
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #30 on: Sun, 24 May 2020, 14:10:31 »
When USB first came into use, it had issues with bios but that hasn't been true for a long time.
The reason it gets ignored by UEFI today is because someone enabled Fast Boot in the UEFI setting, in doing so, the board ignores all USB devices in order to boot faster, as a result they don't function until Windows loads a driver. It's been this way since we switched to UEFI. Early implementations of EFI (note the lack of a U) had issues with it but that whole system was just a quick transition (2nd gen Core I series) and many boards offered EFI and traditional Bios. Most, if not all boards now offer a hybrid that loads some USB devices and some always load the keyboard regardless of setting.

I have had to swap keyboards entirely before, on multiple relatively modern systems, because a USB keyboard would not work preboot. It was usually the average, unassuming rubber dome too. My Corsairs still need to be set to BIOS mode on most systems I have used them with in this regard. Not that this is a major/rampant problem.

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3230
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #31 on: Sun, 24 May 2020, 20:54:16 »
You are mixing two topics that have nothing to do with one another.
If the motherboard has few USB ports, then using the PS2 will save one USB port, perhaps eliminating the need for a USB hub.
So get a different keyboard to save one USB port?
That seems practical.



I have had to swap keyboards entirely before, on multiple relatively modern systems, because a USB keyboard would not work preboot. It was usually the average, unassuming rubber dome too. My Corsairs still need to be set to BIOS mode on most systems I have used them with in this regard. Not that this is a major/rampant problem.
It shouldn't work this way but there's always exceptions to the rules, I do keep a ps2 keyboard handy for those situations, it's just easier than fighting. Some as I said before lays at the feet of motherboard bios manufacturers, USB standards are probably at least as at fault.

Here's one from my collection.
One mech I own almost never allows me into bios because the motherboard thinks CTRL is being pressed, some motherboards will not even boot with it connected because the board senses keys being constantly pressed and will lag. Strangely, certain Dells have zero issues with it and in all cases if you boot without it then plug it in once Windows starts it works perfectly fine. Every keyboard test I've tried show it's working just fine. The most annoying part is that this is a nice compact ultra light keyboard that works with USB or PS2, it would be the perfect test bench keyboard were it not for that problem.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | GMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline typo

  • Posts: 1566
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 21:41:20 »
Reversible and therefore less likely to break upon insertion like micro. Plus higher current. That does not apply to keyboards but rather hard drives and such.

Offline Findecanor

  • Posts: 4624
  • Location: Koriko
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 22:26:00 »
It is not because USB C is reversible that it is less likely to break than Micro B. It is less likely to break because the standard Micro B receptacle is merely surface-mounted onto the PCB with a little bit of solder whereas all USB C receptacles are through-hole soldered — which is much more sturdy.

The industry understood this and introduced a through-hole soldered Micro B receptacle, but it was too late and many new designs use the crap SMT receptacle anyway. Because hey, a connector that breaks is a type of planned obsolescence that makes people buy more ...
« Last Edit: Tue, 26 May 2020, 07:09:22 by Findecanor »
Man must shape his tools lest they shape him
-- Arthur Miller

Offline typo

  • Posts: 1566
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 26 May 2020, 04:03:24 »
I did not know this. Back to through hole? I thought that was obsolete? Or is it just a special instance of "termination" due to strength? Not going to be seeing through hole IC's now again? I do think USB-C does feel much more robust. I have broken hundreds of cheap micros but read "cheap". If they are Audioquest what have you they rarely fail. Although, why do i need to pay $75 for a a 3 foot mini USB cable? I like a free USB-C one!

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3230
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 26 May 2020, 06:47:39 »
There's several Type-C connectors
Surface mount, through hole, half and half (surface and through hole) and one that surface mounts to both sides of the PCB (sandwich), as well as an optional straps/braces for most versions.

Micro cables were designed to be sacrificial (same for Lightning cables), they knew the port wasn't great. The smarter companies also put the port on a separate daughter board so it could be replaced cheaply and easily, however most customers never knew this and shops/stores charged stupid prices to replace the part. This was so they could use it as an excuse to renew your contract, most Galaxies were this way, with the S5's also being especially beefy. It only took a screwdriver and about 5 minutes to replace the port (available for about $10-$20) on most Galaxies prior to the S6.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | GMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline Findecanor

  • Posts: 4624
  • Location: Koriko
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 26 May 2020, 07:14:56 »
I did not know this. Back to through hole? I thought that was obsolete?
I'm sorry I glossed over it too quickly. A receptacle consists of a shield and of pins. The shield should be through-hole soldered. USB C pins on the other hand are often so close together that they have to be surface-soldered.

There's several Type-C connectors
Surface mount, [...]
Dang, you are right. I searched and found a receptacle that is SMT only.
However, I distinctly remember reading in the tech news when USB C was introduced, that SMT-only receptacles were not supposed to exist.

The USB C spec does have a few reference-footprints and does not include these types. It also has standards for the forces that a USB C socket should sustain, that I doubt that the SMT-only type would actually be compliant to.
« Last Edit: Tue, 26 May 2020, 07:20:48 by Findecanor »
Man must shape his tools lest they shape him
-- Arthur Miller

Offline typo

  • Posts: 1566
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 26 May 2020, 08:10:41 »
Man, I wish I had known that about my S6 at the time. I loved it and did not really want something else. Since they were sold out of all colors of the S6 back then. I think I was still "able" at that point too.

Just SMD, no reinforcement would pull right off for sure. Usually what they do is put through "tabs" on the sides.

The best USB cables made, any kind are by Xcentz on Amazon. They are cheap and lifetime no question warranty. Just ask for another and you get it. I would not abuse that offer though.

Those are not audio cables though.  Unfortunately great audio cables are big money. If one is not into that, they might not even know about $5,000 3 foot USB cables. Please do not say it is stupid if it is not your bag.
I was just mentioning it for the heck of it. It is off topic.

Offline HG

  • Posts: 3
  • Location: Washington State
    • Hudson K. Green
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 16 June 2020, 21:11:45 »
I personally don't really find any real advantage of using PS/2 over USB since I cannot get the benefits out of NKRO since I have a Model M, which only has 2KRO. But I use it because my motherboard has a PS/2 port on it, so that just means I don't have to take up a precious USB port (I have too many USB devices plugged in).
Genovation CP24
Cherry MX Black
View Photos
1991 IBM Model M
Buckling Spring
View Photos
Corsair K95 RGB
Cherry MX Brown
View Photos

Offline mcnabb100

  • Posts: 5
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #39 on: Tue, 16 June 2020, 21:22:30 »
I really love USB-C. The reversibility is great, and the added power capacity is a good bit of future-proofing. They do seem to accumulate crud a bit easier than other types, but that's largely a concern for with phones and such. Anything that stays plugged in is fine.

Offline funkmon

  • Posts: 294
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #40 on: Tue, 16 June 2020, 21:28:36 »
I personally don't really find any real advantage of using PS/2 over USB since I cannot get the benefits out of NKRO since I have a Model M, which only has 2KRO. But I use it because my motherboard has a PS/2 port on it, so that just means I don't have to take up a precious USB port (I have too many USB devices plugged in).

That's why I use PS/2 for it. I have a hole so I'm sticking something in it. In the future, a lot of motherboards will have the USB-C hole, and a lot of people are going to have nothing to stick in that, too, so that's something.

Offline jamster

  • Posts: 813
  • Location: Asia
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #41 on: Tue, 16 June 2020, 21:40:44 »
I've been at this hobby for a while and seen several posts and videos where people crap on everything that isn't USB C. I could really care less what the interface is. They all seem to make my keyboard click just fine. For that matter, why do people prefer PS/2?

What am I missing?
muchas gracias  ;D

Going from a thread I started a couple weeks ago asking about the popularity of tiny form factor keyboards, I'm concluding that very few people are using them for portability reasons.

Most people are going to keep the same keyboard connected to the same computer for weeks or months at a time, versus say, a phone which would be plugged in on a daily basis. So issues of socket symmetry or longevity are largely overblow.

I suspect that the main driver behind people slamming on the idea of keyboards with older USB connectors is... just because they can. It gives them something to complain about. If someone is writing a real review, it's a factual, technical specification (fair enough, I guess). But what I notice, and possibly this is similar to the OP, is that there are posters making a big deal of it over on the GB and IC subforums, in which case it's more a case of someone wanting to find something clever to say, but being unable to find anything more substantial to talk about.

I've probably detached a USB cable off any of my keyboards less than five times. They have good cable routing and strain relief, so for occasional transport I'll just wrap the cable around the case. Perhaps this is more of an issue with boards where the USB port comes right out the back of the case with zero routing/relief, but I think this in itself represents a flawed case design on a modern board. And even then, the port won't be as heavily used as that on a phone.

My three daily boards are mini, micro and hardwired. I don't give a toss how they are connected, and had to flip up each board to check. Maybe this would also be a bigger deal if I was into aftermarket cables, but the standard cables work fine.

USB C is a big deal on phones though, it's such a huge point of convenience that I no longer care about wireless charging.

PS: Really liked reading the PS/2 points on this thread, I haven't used that connector for ages and it brought up some fond memories.


« Last Edit: Tue, 16 June 2020, 21:50:19 by jamster »

Offline VP

  • Posts: 40
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #42 on: Wed, 17 June 2020, 04:49:27 »
PS/2
Question about PS/2. Not quite on the topic, sorry.
I have PS/2 keyboard. When connect it via a USB adapter (active), Windows 10 shows it as a barcode reader. The keyboard works without problems, just confusing, it is as barcode reader in Control Panel (Devices and Printers). What is your experience?
I tried two PS/2 to USB adapters, the result is the same.

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3230
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 17 June 2020, 06:36:56 »
You can tell USB to identify as almost anything, including device and vendor ID, there's an official registry but that costs money.

It's likely they just used a random ID or copied code from something else, you can see this when you setup QMK, so long as it sends keyboard commands Windows will treat it as a keyboard since almost anything can send commands. This is probably why some keyboards work in bios/EFI and others do not, if it doesn't properly identify at boot it may be getting ignored, this is almost certainly true in EFI fast boot.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | GMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline v6ak

  • Posts: 29
  • Location: Czech Republic
    • v6ak
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 17 June 2020, 12:23:41 »
Short: USB C provides some advantages over the old USB A, but they are rather minor for keyboard. Of course, USB C is small, reversible, compatible with many phones and maybe in five or ten years, it will be everywhere and USB A/B will be dead.

Long: Old USB A/B port have strict distinction between master and slave (ehh, main and dependent). USB A provides power and controls the communication, USB B can take some power and communicate whenever USB A allows that. That was good enough for various peripherals connected to stationary laptops.

But this was not good for phones. Phones usually need USB B mode, but also USB A, because you might want to connect a keyboard or USB flash drive or so. For this reasons, we have USB OTG, which allows USB B to switch to USB A.

But this is still not suitable for laptop docking stations. A docking station wants to connect you some peripherals, but it also wants to charge your laptop. USB B mode (on the docking station) allows you to connect peripherals, USB A mode could allow you to power the laptop, but none of them allows you both at the same time. With USB C, you can do that.

For this reason (plus for space reasons), I don't expect USB A to be there forever. It will not die tomorrow, but USB C will likely take its place.

For a new keyboard, USB C might be a good option for compatibility with future decides and phones. But you still can use adapter for that, so it could be a pretty minor thing when choosing a keyboard. It can be major when choosing a new computer, though.

Offline Findecanor

  • Posts: 4624
  • Location: Koriko
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 17 June 2020, 15:52:18 »
While USB C cables and protocols on paper are bidirectional and support host and power to be in any direction and even different directions, actual devices are not as flexible. Almost all hubs still use a dedicated cable to the host.

I tried to find a hub controller solution that would allow the host to be connected to any port and the other to be hub ports, and I could only find one such chip. It required multiple additional chips for power management, and an external microcontroller, and the result would just have got too expensive and complex to put into a keyboard.
« Last Edit: Wed, 17 June 2020, 16:30:45 by Findecanor »
Man must shape his tools lest they shape him
-- Arthur Miller

Offline v6ak

  • Posts: 29
  • Location: Czech Republic
    • v6ak
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 17 June 2020, 16:02:18 »
There are commercially available docking stations that can power your laptop. I remember one from Dell. Unfortunately, it was limited to 65 or 60 W and I don't remember the identification.

Offline Mekanist

  • Posts: 26
    • Archetype
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #47 on: Fri, 19 June 2020, 16:09:37 »
Correct me if i'm wrong, but i have heard that one of the main advantages to USB C is that the cable itself is the area where you see wear and tear (loosening over time) rather than the port itself. its much easier to replace a cable than a port.

Offline v6ak

  • Posts: 29
  • Location: Czech Republic
    • v6ak
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #48 on: Fri, 19 June 2020, 18:22:07 »
I've heard of this design consideration at a different port. It might have been also considered for USB C. But I don't think it is an advantage compared to USB A. I haven't heard of a broken USB A female port.

Offline jamster

  • Posts: 813
  • Location: Asia
Re: What's so great about USB C
« Reply #49 on: Fri, 19 June 2020, 20:34:31 »
Correct me if i'm wrong, but i have heard that one of the main advantages to USB C is that the cable itself is the area where you see wear and tear (loosening over time) rather than the port itself. its much easier to replace a cable than a port.

This might be true (no idea if it is) but it's not relevant on keyboards which are almost permanently connected to a computer. Might be more relevant to phones, where the plug is changed multiple times a day, in which case how often have you experienced loose or worn ports on phones?

« Last Edit: Fri, 19 June 2020, 22:24:02 by jamster »