Author Topic: HDD Recommendation  (Read 13701 times)

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Offline washuai

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HDD Recommendation
« on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 15:54:34 »
Maybe I should ask this in a more pc hardware driven forum, but eh.

I've been burned by Western Digital twice, as both my 150 GB Raptors died premature deaths.  In fact they are the only hard drives I've ever had fail me, ever.

Basically, I'm currently running my Win XP on my storage drive and will continue to do so, but the amount of space isn't right, so I need to get a new drive, so I can fully install the software I'm missing.

I'd prefer a SATA 1 TB or 2 TB (whichever is the better price per GB), 7200 RPM drive, but only the Western Digitals have the 64 MB cache and a larger cache should mean better performance.

I'd also prefer to buy the drive at a brick and mortar store, in the Bay Area, but Central Computers only have the inferior over priced drives in stock.

Based on reviews everything seems to be equally **** - Samsung, Western Digital and Sea Gate.

What do you recommend I buy?  Any recommendations on where to buy it from?
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #1 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 15:57:56 »
I've had good experience with Samsungs, my past three drives have been Samsung drive (all of them are still working, I've just sold off the first two). I hear their current F3 model is good.

Offline nowsharing

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« Reply #2 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 16:25:41 »
It really depends on your luck. I have a 500GB Seagate ST3500320AS running almost 24-7 for two years without issue.

I buy what's most economical, and makes the most sense (i.e. has the least # of platters, etc).

I also have a WD 1.5TB, but only wake it up to access media and perform backups.

Just backup your important info and don't sweat the bad reviews too much. People are much more likely to write a negative review than positive.
« Last Edit: Tue, 06 July 2010, 15:12:15 by nowsharing »

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #3 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 16:41:09 »
A huge percentage of negative reviews on etailers consist of one of the following -

1) I happened to get a defective unit and had to RMA it. Therefore this particular product is unilaterally ****.
2) The product was damaged/lost in the post. Therefore this particular product is unilaterally ****.
3) The retailer did not send this product, or did not have it in stock even though they claimed to have it. Therefore this particular product is unilaterally ****.

That said, it pays to read through negative reviews to see if there are either a) specific issues or b) examples of people RMA'ing a unit, and getting a replacement that broke in the same way etc.

Nonetheless, the sheer stupidity behind some of the reviews on sites like Amazon and Newegg is enough to make a grown man cry.

Offline kishy

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« Reply #4 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 16:47:59 »
Quote from: ch_123;199437
1) I happened to get a defective unit and had to RMA it. Therefore this particular product is unilaterally ****.


That's actually a pretty important one. Seagate could have successfully pretended the 7200.11 series disaster didn't happen if everyone who RMA'd one didn't speak out about it.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #5 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 16:52:35 »
It depends really. Sometimes you see a huge number of good reviews for a product, and a small number of people hurf-durfing about getting a dud, and it just strikes me that such people need moar objectivity.

The other two do pop up quite a bit and it never ceases to amaze.

Offline washuai

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« Reply #6 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 17:13:50 »
Yea, well that's the thing, the 150 GB raptors, have the same kind of 4 egg, some percentage of people with DOA or it died and 2 out of 2 failed and based on the reviews, 1 out of 4 fail.

The Samsung is better reviewed one.  I think I'm gonna get the Samsung & an iomega external, so I can finally return the 1/4 size external I've been borrowing for over a year, lol.

I could get a better price on bundling a WD external 1 TB with a Caviar blue or green, but they seem like a greater risk and I hate giving more money to a company that's already burned me twice.  It is bad enough they got a caviar blue sale to someone else, because the budget was too tight to get something else.

I just wish I'd known where my paperwork was when the first one went down, because that one died, while under warranty, but I didn't get to use it.

If the drive had made it another year or two, new drives would have been part of my formal computer upgrade to SSD and Win 7.
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Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #7 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 18:30:05 »
I'll sell you my 515MB hard disk. That thing's gone strong for 16 years and works good as new.
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Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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« Reply #8 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 18:31:46 »
Good luck putting Windows XP on that...
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Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #9 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 18:33:19 »
It'll fit Windows 95 with plenty room to spare.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #10 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 18:37:46 »
Quote from: washuai;199451
Yea, well that's the thing, the 150 GB raptors, have the same kind of 4 egg, some percentage of people with DOA or it died and 2 out of 2 failed and based on the reviews, 1 out of 4 fail.

The Samsung is better reviewed one.  I think I'm gonna get the Samsung & an iomega external, so I can finally return the 1/4 size external I've been borrowing for over a year, lol.

I could get a better price on bundling a WD external 1 TB with a Caviar blue or green, but they seem like a greater risk and I hate giving more money to a company that's already burned me twice.  It is bad enough they got a caviar blue sale to someone else, because the budget was too tight to get something else.

I just wish I'd known where my paperwork was when the first one went down, because that one died, while under warranty, but I didn't get to use it.

If the drive had made it another year or two, new drives would have been part of my formal computer upgrade to SSD and Win 7.


The hilarious thing about those Raptor drives is that within a year of their release, convention 7200RPM hard drives catch up with them in terms of speed. Of course, by then, you've paid some obscene sum for a tiny hard drive that makes a lot of noise.

This is why I don't like gaming hardware any more... Too much silly **** that goes out of date too quickly.

Offline majestouch

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« Reply #11 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 18:38:18 »
Folks writing reviews about HDDs on sites like Newegg screw up all those factory specs in the key of <0.5% failure rates and 1million+ hours MTBFs because they all choose to buy the OEM/kit model that has no retail packaging THEN they have it shipped to their home.

A drive born from the factory unprotected is already at a higher risk for damage than a retail packaged drive. Double that risk if it is shipped with a small package courier like FedEx, UPS, or USPS.

My advice: Ignore reviews about non-firmware issues. Buy a major brand HDD with specs you feel meet your needs. However, do *not* save $15 buying the OEM/kit version. Instead, buy the retail version in the nice big box with lots of packaging and padding. And if at all possible, buy it from a retail store. Of course, if your online retailer has a will-call where you can pick up an OEM drive right after they pull it out of the foam lined factory case, then it might be OK, but you're still risking that Joe Warehouse didn't slam it down on the pick cart...

Offline Phaedrus2129

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« Reply #12 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 18:38:28 »
I've never had a hard drive fail, except an old WD drive that I dropped on a tile floor, and that was solidly my fault.

Oh! Except we had one of the Quantum Fireballs. Guess what happened to that one.:wink: Though the Bigfoot 19.2GB still works, amazingly. Or it did before the move.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #13 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 18:42:09 »
I've seen other people's drives fail, but never my own.

I intend at some point to build a monster computer with a RAID 5 setup. Till then, external backups have to do.

Offline kishy

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« Reply #14 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 18:45:52 »
The first hard drive I ever had truly, completely fail was fairly recently. Miniscribe 8450, ~40MB, 3.5" HH. ST412 RLL.

And I could fix it if I had the stupid tiny torx screwdriver head. The track 0 'stop' is knocked out of position.
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Offline Infinite north

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« Reply #15 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 18:57:26 »
SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB. fairly fast, cheap and good capacity.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #16 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 19:05:12 »
Friend of mine got a batch of dud Hitachis once when he was building a RAID...

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #17 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 19:12:24 »
Not sure how they would have survived the Atlantic crossing.


Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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« Reply #18 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 19:17:46 »
I laugh at Ripster, having 6 1T hard disks.  Between all of my computers, I don't even have 500g of space.
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Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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« Reply #19 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 19:24:29 »
Quote from: ripster;199528
I'm pretty sure my camcorder has greater storage and computing power than any of your computers.


Storage, maybe, if it has over 160g of space.  As for computing power, does it have 3g of RAM and a 3.0Ghz P4? Of course, I am assuming that this camcorder has HD capabilities, as does the graphics card in my best computer.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #20 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 19:33:40 »
I could do with a burger!

Om nom nom

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #21 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 20:01:33 »
The 4th always seems an uninteresting day given that my birthday is on the 3rd...

Offline bionicroach

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« Reply #22 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 22:13:24 »
I agree with what Majestouch said about the OEM packaging + Ace Ventura-style UPS delivery being a potential problem to watch out for.  That said, I've purchased several "bare" drives from Newegg and ZipZoomFly without issue in the past, though.

I've had good luck with drives from all the major brands, and also seen all those same brands fail a fair amount in my IT environment, so it's hard to really say that one brand or another is truly superior on a consistent basis.

The pattern I *HAVE* noticed, though, is that the drive models marketed as "enterprise grade" drives seem to be consistently more reliable in my experience.  You usually need to pull up the specific part numbers on the manufacturer's web site to find them, as they aren't typically marketed as aggressively as the consumer grade drives, and "big box" stores ala Best Buy, etc pretty much *never* carry them because they surely wouldn't sell enough of them to get the profit margins they want.

If you look at the specs, though, the MTBF is higher, sometimes they have extra platters to help with data density / reliability, and they almost always have a much better warranty.  (5 years instead of 1 or 2 years, for example.)

I don't have any concrete proof, but it just seems in my experience that the "enterprise grade" drives are made with a little more care or go through better QA or something, because they seem to have less early failure and run much longer than the slightly cheaper consumer stuff.

Even if the "enterprise" label is just snake oil, the better warranty isn't.  Since you should always have a solid backup plan and NEVER live under the delusion that your hard drive isn't going to eventually fail, what I do with a new drive is run a tool like SpinRite or Hitachi Drive Fitness Test on it fairly thoroughly when I first get it before I actually put it into service.  If it fails early on, exchange it.  If it fails a year down the road, no big deal, exchange it and restore from the backup that you should have made anyway.  It has been my experience that if a drive doesn't fail under heavy load fairly early on, it will usually run well for at least a few years without issues, provided that you keep it well ventilated and don't subject it to excessive dust, shock, or intermittent power failures and the like.

On that last point, I feel that the case / enclosure that you keep a drive in actually has a pretty significant impact on the life of the drive.  The one thing across the board that seems to kill drives pretty predictably is excessive heat.  While I think elaborate aluminum heat sink assemblies and the like are probably overkill, having good airflow and not over-crowding drives into a tiny case definitely helps them avoid an untimely demise.
« Last Edit: Sun, 04 July 2010, 22:16:00 by bionicroach »

Offline Phaedrus2129

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« Reply #23 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 22:39:15 »
I read parts of a Google study a while back. Apparently hard drives have the longest operating lifetime and best reliability at around 40C. Since the ambient temperature of most peoples' cases is around 30-40C and HDDs usually run ~5C over their ambient, overheating probably isn't a huge concern except in summer. Running at 25C or lower will kill a drive quicker than running at 50C.
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Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #24 on: Sun, 04 July 2010, 23:36:32 »
Quote from: ch_123;199437
Nonetheless, the sheer stupidity behind some of the reviews on sites like Amazon and Newegg is enough to make a grown man cry.

I have a bunch of WD Passport drives that I used as my fire-safe backups. I keep a 1Tb WD Passport in a fireproof data safe that has a USB cable coming out the back and back up all of my most important files there at least a few times a month. I have two 1Tb's handy so I can keep one of them offsite at all times.

Their 1Tb Passports are nice drives. They're fast and they fixed a cable problem that made their previous editions a bit iffy. A loosely fitting mini-USB cable was replaced by a very snug micro-USB cable which none of the Amazon idiots recognized as a newer member of the USB family. They all thought it was a proprietary cable WD invented to piss people off and there were over a hundred reviews that started with something like "Awful. Proprietary Cable. Incompatible..."

Ugh, facepalm moment.

Anyway, back to the OP. I've had really good luck with WD drives. I know some people have had complaints, but I own about a dozen of them and only had a problem with one drive crapping out on me. I did have problems with the cabling being too loose in some of their earlier Passport portable drives, but the drives themselves were fine.

I have a 300Gb Raptor too. Works fine by me, but of course the performance of any one drive doesn't mean a thing.
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Offline ironman31

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« Reply #25 on: Mon, 05 July 2010, 01:02:05 »
Wd caviar black. Can't really get much better, except for ssd or the new raptors
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Offline kishy

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« Reply #26 on: Mon, 05 July 2010, 01:07:00 »


Why would anyone need anything larger than 2GB or faster than 4200RPM?

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Offline washuai

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« Reply #27 on: Mon, 05 July 2010, 05:01:42 »
I've made a taxed newegg purchase, too sick to deal with brick and mortar stores, this weekend, none of which are close enough and the $40-60 difference in price really matters at the moment.  So my back up drives are slower, than they would have been if things had hung on until my real upgrade, not so bad, just inconvenient.  Thanks for the feedback.

I think I read part of that large study PDF on drives.

yea, have to actually read the reviews, thanks to clueless reviewers.

To be fair, the eldest raptor died I think after warranty and while it won't boot windows, I can actually still read from it, but it doesn't sound good, though it doesn't sound as bad as its clicky cousin that died at like the 1 year point and had come from Fry's.  I got them old enough to appreciate their load time assistance, which wasn't a gaming specific choice.

lol troll stats dusted by a fair amount of mp3 players alone.

I just look at it this way, I just have slower back up drives, than I would have, if the raptor had kept it together long enough.

The first raptor death had actually screwed me data wise, because I don't back up frequently enough, but I don't care that much about my lost game saves and I hadn't lost any critical files.
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Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #28 on: Mon, 05 July 2010, 09:50:10 »
Quote from: kishy;199598


Why would anyone need anything larger than 2GB or faster than 4200RPM?



What difference does the RPM really make? I've used old hard disks and they work perfectly good.
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Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #29 on: Mon, 05 July 2010, 10:00:51 »
Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;199532
Storage, maybe, if it has over 160g of space.  As for computing power, does it have 3g of RAM and a 3.0Ghz P4? Of course, I am assuming that this camcorder has HD capabilities, as does the graphics card in my best computer.


Only 3.0 P4? I have a 3.2 and a 3.4. My dream one is a 3.8.

Quote from: microsoft windows;199644
What difference does the RPM really make? I've used old hard disks and they work perfectly good.


Oh RPM does a lot. One of my SCSIs is 15K RPM, and the other 10K RPM. The 15K one gets better transfer.

Older hard disks can still have higher RPM, I have some ancient 7200 RPM ones. Not sure if any are 10K. 15K is usually reserved for SCSI or higher end SATA.
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Offline didjamatic

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« Reply #30 on: Mon, 05 July 2010, 10:11:56 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;199644
What difference does the RPM really make? I've used old hard disks and they work perfectly good.

That's like saying what good does it do to own a truck, train or cargo jet when I can drive my compact car just fine.  It depends on what you do with it and where the bottle neck in your system is.  

I manage a lot of servers and have 2 SAN's  and many servers connected to them so IOPS on the disks is tremendous.  We have some shelves of SATA disks that work well for storing data (file server, archives, etc), but not for lots of fast changes that databases and application servers perform.  We tried running those systems on SATA and it pulled and instant Mama Cass.  Only FC connected SCSI 15k drives work well in that case.  But for a home system, you don't need SCSI.  Modern SATA drives are plenty fast for anyone's home use.  Just remember, SATA can get hot as hell so if you're stacking multiple drives in a system make dang sure you have proper ventilation.  I've cacked more than a handful of SATA drives from heat.

EDIT - Oh yeah, all modern SATA drives seem to be made out of crap.  I personally prefer Samsung but I could have just been lucky.  I've had Maxtors, WD, Seagate - even a 10k raptor die on me.  Just get one that's a good deal from one of the main manufacturers, keep it cool, get good backups (mozy) and cross your fingers.

I hope SSD prices keep falling because that's where THE FUTURE is.  This business of charging us more for it than a mechal disk platter spinning archaic disk is funny though.  SSD should be cheaper than it is.  Like when CD's cost more than cassette tapes but were much cheaper to produce.
« Last Edit: Mon, 05 July 2010, 10:21:30 by didjamatic »
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Offline bionicroach

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« Reply #31 on: Mon, 05 July 2010, 10:43:47 »
Quote from: didjamatic;199660
I hope SSD prices keep falling because that's where THE FUTURE is.  This business of charging us more for it than a mechal disk platter spinning archaic disk is funny though.  SSD should be cheaper than it is.  Like when CD's cost more than cassette tapes but were much cheaper to produce.

Yeah, I'll admit I'm not that familiar with the specific manufacturing details of SSD drives, but it really is hard to believe that the process could possibly be more difficult and error-prone than that of magnetic platter drives with all the microscopic tolerances and mechanical components that have to be assembled near perfectly for anything to even work, much less be reliable.  I'm continually amazed that modern 1TB+ density mechanical drives actually work at all with the huge number of potential things that could go wrong with them.  Pretty incredible, really.

Offline Phaedrus2129

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« Reply #32 on: Mon, 05 July 2010, 10:49:58 »
SSDs are expensive because of economy of scale.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #33 on: Mon, 05 July 2010, 11:00:47 »
Quote from: bionicroach;199671
Yeah, I'll admit I'm not that familiar with the specific manufacturing details of SSD drives, but it really is hard to believe that the process could possibly be more difficult and error-prone than that of magnetic platter drives with all the microscopic tolerances and mechanical components that have to be assembled near perfectly for anything to even work, much less be reliable.  I'm continually amazed that modern 1TB+ density mechanical drives actually work at all with the huge number of potential things that could go wrong with them.  Pretty incredible, really.


If you invest billions upon billions of dollars over fifty years, you can make just about anything seem good.

Same principle applies to x86 chips.

Offline kishy

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« Reply #34 on: Mon, 05 July 2010, 15:39:04 »
Quote from: didjamatic;199660
I hope SSD prices keep falling because that's where THE FUTURE is.


Ouch, didja...you didn't turn off the reverb...it's still going.
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Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #35 on: Mon, 05 July 2010, 18:48:39 »
Quote from: kishy;199726
Ouch, didja...you didn't turn off the reverb...it's still going.


LOL, Didja just discovered the first true innovation in message board code in years. I actually found myself echoing the words in my head.

Future... future... uture... uture...
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Offline nowsharing

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« Reply #36 on: Mon, 05 July 2010, 20:04:19 »
Quote
Future
I'm freaking out man!

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #37 on: Mon, 05 July 2010, 20:23:44 »
Quote from: didjamatic;199660
That's like saying what good does it do to own a truck, train or cargo jet when I can drive my compact car just fine.  It depends on what you do with it and where the bottle neck in your system is.  

I manage a lot of servers and have 2 SAN's  and many servers connected to them so IOPS on the disks is tremendous.  We have some shelves of SATA disks that work well for storing data (file server, archives, etc), but not for lots of fast changes that databases and application servers perform.  We tried running those systems on SATA and it pulled and instant Mama Cass.  Only FC connected SCSI 15k drives work well in that case.  But for a home system, you don't need SCSI.  Modern SATA drives are plenty fast for anyone's home use.  Just remember, SATA can get hot as hell so if you're stacking multiple drives in a system make dang sure you have proper ventilation.  I've cacked more than a handful of SATA drives from heat.

EDIT - Oh yeah, all modern SATA drives seem to be made out of crap.  I personally prefer Samsung but I could have just been lucky.  I've had Maxtors, WD, Seagate - even a 10k raptor die on me.  Just get one that's a good deal from one of the main manufacturers, keep it cool, get good backups (mozy) and cross your fingers.

I hope SSD prices keep falling because that's where THE FUTURE is.  This business of charging us more for it than a mechal disk platter spinning archaic disk is funny though.  SSD should be cheaper than it is.  Like when CD's cost more than cassette tapes but were much cheaper to produce.


I don't use my computers too heavily. The most I really do on them is browse the Internet and run Windows 3.1 on DOSBox.
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Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #38 on: Mon, 05 July 2010, 21:46:20 »
Quote from: didjamatic;199660
That's like saying what good does it do to own a truck, train or cargo jet when I can drive my compact car just fine.  It depends on what you do with it and where the bottle neck in your system is.  

I manage a lot of servers and have 2 SAN's  and many servers connected to them so IOPS on the disks is tremendous.  We have some shelves of SATA disks that work well for storing data (file server, archives, etc), but not for lots of fast changes that databases and application servers perform.  We tried running those systems on SATA and it pulled and instant Mama Cass.  Only FC connected SCSI 15k drives work well in that case.  But for a home system, you don't need SCSI.  Modern SATA drives are plenty fast for anyone's home use.  Just remember, SATA can get hot as hell so if you're stacking multiple drives in a system make dang sure you have proper ventilation.  I've cacked more than a handful of SATA drives from heat.

EDIT - Oh yeah, all modern SATA drives seem to be made out of crap.  I personally prefer Samsung but I could have just been lucky.  I've had Maxtors, WD, Seagate - even a 10k raptor die on me.  Just get one that's a good deal from one of the main manufacturers, keep it cool, get good backups (mozy) and cross your fingers.

I hope SSD prices keep falling because that's where THE FUTURE is.  This business of charging us more for it than a mechal disk platter spinning archaic disk is funny though.  SSD should be cheaper than it is.  Like when CD's cost more than cassette tapes but were much cheaper to produce.


Then my suspicion of most SATA drives today not being that all reliable was true. But then again, the best hard drives are those which are refurbished, that way you know they work. One advantage to refurbished things (including computers) is that they've been already "tried" for stability.

Quote from: ch_123;199678
If you invest billions upon billions of dollars over fifty years, you can make just about anything seem good.

EXCEPT the netburst architecture, damn pentium 4s that keep overheating and were so outdated compared to AMD.


I think I know where you're going with that.

Quote from: microsoft windows;199821
I don't use my computers too heavily. The most I really do on them is browse the Internet and run Windows 3.1 on DOSBox.


You actually need a powerful computer to run DOS Box (well the DOS apps I run anyways, they go so slow even with high CPU cycles). I don't understand why you wouldn't just install it natively since you have so many old computers.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #39 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 04:41:11 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;199842
I think I know where you're going with that.


The whole x86 architecture itself is a mess and should have been replaced eons ago, not just P4s.

Offline bigpook

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« Reply #40 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 06:20:57 »
I have a bunch of a seagates across mutliple machines and they have been working fine.  I even have a couple of a WD and IBM Deathstars running in a raid. Knock on wood, they are still going strong.
FWIW, I have had Samsungs, IBM's, WD and Seagate all fail on me over the years, not to mention Maxtor and Quantum. Having said that, I prefer the Seagates. The Maxtor/Quantum have been the worst for me.
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Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #41 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 07:24:27 »
Quote from: bigpook;199898
I have a bunch of a seagates across mutliple machines and they have been working fine.  I even have a couple of a WD and IBM Deathstars running in a raid. Knock on wood, they are still going strong.
FWIW, I have had Samsungs, IBM's, WD and Seagate all fail on me over the years, not to mention Maxtor and Quantum. Having said that, I prefer the Seagates. The Maxtor/Quantum have been the worst for me.


I like the WD caviar HDDs, along with some seagates (which seem to be the most reliable), and obscure IBM HDDs... just cause it's IBM.

In my HDD pile, I have a lot of maxtor and quantum ones... never tried them out though. I don't use IDE that much, even though I have so damn many of them.
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Offline muchadoaboutnothing

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« Reply #42 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 07:54:41 »
Most brands are fine and you're going to get a ton of anecdotes like:
Quote from: Whiners
Seagate is awful! WD is great!
I had a bunch of WDs die on me! Hitatchi forever!
Hitatchi DeskStars? More like Hitatchi DeathStars! Go buy an IDE Quantum drive, it'll never die...

That said, I currently buy WD Scorpio Blues and Samsung SpinPoint F3s & F1s. I've had good luck with both brands.

What Majestouch said about packaging is very true and throws off hard drive reviews massively (along with the idiots who can't read the drive label and claim they got robbed of gigabytes [fine, gibibytes if you're a pedantic person] because they don't know base 10).

I always test my drives before I format them, a month out, and every 6 months - 1 year with the SMART test, short drive self test, and long self test with the manufacturer's diagnostic. It's not foolproof- and not a replacement for backups- but I haven't lost data where I've needed to resort to backups in about 5 years and I caught two drives before they failed.

Of course, I had a couple come in bad and had to exchange them.

Offline muchadoaboutnothing

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« Reply #43 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 09:12:08 »
Quote from: ripster;199938
I'm lazy.  I don't test but replace my hard drives when they start sounding weird.


Sometimes you get the clicking/whirring noises, and sometimes you don't and the drive just dies. It's easy enough to do- the tests take two minutes (tops) to start, and then you come back in an hour or so to see the results.

Offline muchadoaboutnothing

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« Reply #44 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 09:36:25 »
Quote from: ripster;199940
Tests by Google on their vast array of drives shows once again "common knowledge" on the internet tends to be false.

Pdf Link

Point taken, but I'll be happy to argue it out.

[list=a]
  • Temperature is anecdotal for me, but I've had better luck with low temperature drives than higher temperature. At the same time I don't believe drives need to have the megacooler stuck next to them to get to room temperature.
  • S.M.A.R.T. data has ALWAYS been an indicator that a drive is in bad shape. If you're getting S.M.A.R.T. warnings, you backup the drive.
  • At the same time, drive diagnostics are not solely based on S.M.A.R.T. data

    A short drive self test is going to check a few sections. It'll check the circuirty (including the cache), the circuitry, and the head. Then the head is going to try to move the head to servos and make sure it is finding it properly within certain tolerances (if it takes 30 seconds to find a sector the drive is bad).  Then you do some read/verify scan and see if sectors are corrupt. This is a two minute test.

    The extended test is the same except it has no time limit and checks every last user accessible sector on the platter(s).
So, yes. S.M.A.R.T. data is good indicator, but obviously not a magic bullet. However, drive diagnostics tests are NOT merely S.M.A.R.T. tests and dismissing their validity based on that excerpt is ludicrous.

S.M.A.R.T. is good because it's self monitoring, but it's not as nearly as involved as a manually run DST.
« Last Edit: Tue, 06 July 2010, 09:38:57 by muchadoaboutnothing »

Offline kishy

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« Reply #45 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 13:54:54 »
I've seen a lot of people come down pretty hard on Maxtor and Quantum, but at least with <20GB drives, they were great (excluding Bigfoots, I've found many of these dead when I went to do a test format). Higher capacity Maxtors have never given me a problem either, but I had a 30GB Quantum start losing data.

I've bought the following drives new, in this order:

  • Western Digital Caviar SE WD1600JB (160GB, ATA-100, 8MB cache, 3.5")
  • Seagate FreeAgent Go (320GB, USB 2.0, 2.5")
  • Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 750GB...refurb yet still DOA with the famous firmware symptoms

The rest of my drives have been old/used/whatever. Total failures, ever:

  • Miniscribe 8450 40MB ST412 RLL: track 0 stop knocked out of place, can be manually repaired
  • Conner CP3181 80MB IDE...still pre-ATA: doesn't want to hold data anymore, won't take a format
  • Quantum Bigfoot 2.5GB: unreliable data storage
  • Quantum Bigfoot 1.2GB: PCB failure, swapped with one from above, going strong since

At some point the Seagate microdrive from a Creative Zen MicroPhoto failed as well, but that was due to physical abuse.
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Offline dfj

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« Reply #46 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 10:03:01 »
Given that the manufacturers are retooling their lines every few years, and that at any point the IC supply can generate a wave of bad chips which are hard to QA for, I don't put much stock in the rep of manufacturers from more than a couple of generations back.

     If you have the luck to be friendly with a seller who moves a lot of drives of different brands, they can tell you what is coming back _right now_ . Which will give insight into the DOA and 30-day failures of the current crop of drives. What the longer term projections are, though is not known.

  Generally there are consumer drives with 3 or five year warranties, and more expensive drives, also with 5 years for 'enterprise use'. Since the expensive drives are several times the value of the consumer ones right now, and the consumer drives don't fail that often, a decent backup and even raid if you don't want to lose a day or so restoring, are cheaper than the higher end drives.

     IIRC, Google's studies were done on the more expensive of the commodity drives, as they build their rigs to use RAIDs of whatever the 'sanely priced' drives currently are, rather than the really expensive ones.

Fer trivia:
  For building certain systems, more RAM or cache isn't the solution, instead the problem really requires an array of fast disks... and when the speed on them disks really matters, the number of the disks can't just be increased freely as the controllers also introduce some latency. The disk speed ends up being very high (10-15k) to reduce the rotational latency, and the number of disks needs to be kept within a certain bound - e.g. no more than 36" or some other small magic number from the main controller - which forces the number of disks in the area to be at most, say (not a real number, just a representative one) 42 drives. RAIDing the top mirroring brings it down to 21 drives, which might be broken into three RAID 5's of 7 drives, say with 5 active and two hot-spares... suddenly, this server's configuration actually has a _maximum size_ in disk space - with 1 TB drives, it might only be able to support 12 TB of space while maintaining a 2.x ms mean read latency relative to main RAM.
     So, while big systems can ideally dodge that sort of requirement if architected carefully, not all can - some are genuinely bound by disk latency, so need to spring for the fastest, largest and most reliable drives they can afford - and if the manufacturer doesn't stockpile enough old models to service the system's failure rate then the system needs to be redesigned to some degree with faster drives. For lucky systems, they will have space and compatibility on their controllers to upgrade, and mebbe an extra controller to handle testing with the new drives - rather than a whole separate (expensive) box.. for unlucky systems, the builder needs to make sure that enough drives are bought/contracted from the supplier such that the system will be able to have its lifetime be extended a couple of times, and also be able to handle some degree of extra projected failure rate of the drives. Some government or big-client purchase might eat up the entirety of a suppliers old-stock of some drive - one can't safely assume that a disk manufacturer will have old expensive drives in stock forever (though given how they charge massive rates for non-contract old drives they do seem to like to stock a fair number. :)
 
  All this ramble to say: There are certain systems that require massively reliable disks.  
     As a gamer and programmer (specializing in profiling and optimization) my home rig is plenty big and fast, but, I certainly _don't_ need that kind of crazy expensive ****. :)
 
     There is a need for some reliability, but beyond getting nailed by a bad run from a manufacturer (which can happen to the best of them at any time) making sure one has decent backups is more important than direct disk reliability. Secondly, if disk reliability actually matters, (e.g. there is always some risk in restoring from backup, depending on how doubly (or N x) redundant one's backup hardware and software is) Then RAID systems and journalling file systems (i.e. 'undelete' and 'restore previous versions' commands in windows) will reduce the frequency one needs to restore from backup.
 
Finally:
  For the love of all things pure and beautiful in this world: RAID is not a backup!
  RAID does not protect against: (too many drives failing at once - typically after a power outage against drives that have rarely been restarted, operating system level file-system corruption, drive-controller corruption, user error, virus/trojan/compromise, admin sabotage...)
  I have seen entire companies fail when their RAID system failed. I have repeatedly seen RAIDs fail - all of the above examples of types RAID failure are from my personal experience, not stuff I read somewhere. Source at every job (and thus every firm) I have ever worked for has been lost at one point or another, aggressive use of RAID, revision control and backups, notwithstanding. The places with better-managed and more redundant storage lost _less_ source, and survived the loss. I have personally had to restore the main source from my personal machine four times (three different firms), having been left with the last suviving copy due to my own paranoia and distrust for other folks' 'backup skilz'... (I use the main system, of course, but I _also_ backup whatever I can to a separate machine under my own control - I don't do off-site backups without permission, though)

  Mumble - to be clear, I am not a 'disks guy', a 'security guy' or a hacker - I'm just a regular coder with slightly more gray hairs than some of the managers I've worked with.
 
  Your disks and mine will both fail.

  A plan appropriate to the value of your data and your desire to maintain the system (most take a certain amount of babysitting) is ideal, but... just...

Have a plan.
dfj

PS: My home rigs and servers tend to have had 10-15 disks in total for the last 15 years - hence, I've lost a lot of disks. All together I've only had to be an admin (since I was a dev who could, and they did not have one yet) at a couple of places, so I'm pretty sure I've only handled at most 250 disks? I'm not a professional at disk stuff, just babbling about what I saw and what I think. :)
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Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #47 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 10:42:25 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;199842
Then my suspicion of most SATA drives today not being that all reliable was true. But then again, the best hard drives are those which are refurbished, that way you know they work. One advantage to refurbished things (including computers) is that they've been already "tried" for stability.



I think I know where you're going with that.



You actually need a powerful computer to run DOS Box (well the DOS apps I run anyways, they go so slow even with high CPU cycles). I don't understand why you wouldn't just install it natively since you have so many old computers.


I use DOSbox on a 933Mhz pentium III machine so it can emulate a 486. That way, the flying toasters in my After Dark screen saver won't go too fast.
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Offline niplfsh

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« Reply #48 on: Fri, 09 July 2010, 03:47:17 »
I highly, highly recommend an SSD.  It's the biggest upgrade in performance I've had in years.  Everything starts instantly - from tiny programs all the way up to big stuff like MS Office.  You can literally select every program on your desktop and tell them all to start and it will take seconds. (assuming you have the RAM).  

Plus they run cool, silent, low-power, and have no moving parts.  Yeah, they're still pricy, but if you're buying Raptors you're already paying a premium and SSDs aren't a whole lot more.

(incidentally, I have a 160GB Intel SSD for sale...) :)
"No, Mr. Gold Bond, I expect you to dry."

Offline mackstann

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« Reply #49 on: Fri, 09 July 2010, 12:31:28 »
Quote from: ch_123;199499
I've seen other people's drives fail, but never my own.

I intend at some point to build a monster computer with a RAID 5 setup. Till then, external backups have to do.

You should still have backups.  RAID 5 is no silver bullet, particularly these days. The gargantuan size of hard drives now makes it fairly likely you'll encounter a read error when rebuilding the array.  And then all of your data is toast.  RAID 6 is really a minimum when you're dealing with TB-scale drives.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/storage/why-raid-5-stops-working-in-2009/162

After reviewing the shortcomings of RAID 1, 1+0, 5, 6, and "unRAID" (RAID 4), I've decided to just forget about RAID and simply make backups.  The only downside is that you lose the ability to make a bunch of drives look like one giant one*.  But you gain simplicity and reliability.

* actually you can still do this if you have a RAID 0 array that you back up to some other drives.  But then you have to rebuild the entire array if any one disk fails.  And while RAID 0 gives better performance, it comes at the cost of requiring all the disks in the array to be spun up, which increases power use.


Quote from: niplfsh;200925
I highly, highly recommend an SSD.  It's the biggest upgrade in performance I've had in years.  Everything starts instantly - from tiny programs all the way up to big stuff like MS Office.  You can literally select every program on your desktop and tell them all to start and it will take seconds. (assuming you have the RAM).  

Seconded! An SSD is generally the best performance upgrade you can do.  40GB and 80GB Intel drives aren't that expensive, and later this year they should get even cheaper.

Back to the main topic of reliability, I agree with what some others have said about it being pretty random and not generally due to inherent carelessness of a manufacturer.  The best thing to do is to never buy a particular model until it's been out for a while.  If it has chronic problems then you'll find them in reviews. Of course, you can only compare reviews/ratings in relative terms to other products -- never absolute. And make sure to have backups.  You WILL have a drive die on you eventually.
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 July 2010, 12:42:16 by mackstann »