Author Topic: New to the scene and looking for some guidance  (Read 2678 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Walshware

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 19
New to the scene and looking for some guidance
« on: Sun, 24 May 2020, 09:22:16 »
I am new to the keyboard scene, I have an idea for a keyboard and I’m looking for guidance/ to hire someone to help me. I know your replies will be stating how difficult it is to make any money in the keyboard business, but my idea is good enough that I need to look into this realm and try and see all my options. I know the very broad sense of the things I need but I am really lacking on the smaller details. I may even be willing to do a partnership if the fitting is right. I think it’s best if you have experience in playing a lot of video games, I think that one is an easy requirement to fill but also very necessary to understand the need for my idea in the first place.

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 4518
Re: New to the scene and looking for some guidance
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 04:20:21 »
Without knowing what you intend it’s a bit tough but my advice is always pretty much the same.

If you just want it made, regardless of who and how, start pitching it to designers they may take it up, otherwise it’s the same advice as always, can you do cad, can you program can you design a PCB, find those who can or better yet, start watching Youtube, it’s all there and you can do it yourself if you want. Got a 3d printer? Use it or  you can get plates cut locally pretty cheap with water or laser cutting, PCBs are easy enough to order and relatively cheap.

Where everything gets caught up is the case, use an existing if you can to work out what you can, at least at the start as there is a lot of little things needed before that. You need to understand tolerances and get a base starting point. A lot of CAD is working off existing files as much as you can, no need to redraw the whole plate once you have a pattern you can start from.

If you want production you can work towards that but that’s further down the road. About the time you think you’re ready to start looking for machine shops for the prototype find someone to clean up the design to make it easier and cheaper to produce, since, just because you can doesn’t mean it’s practical. By the time you get that done you will probably have finally found a shop. Even then get a 3d printed version before you go to the shop, spending even $150 here can save you hundreds later when you realize you missed a hole or forgot something.

If you want just one and you are driven plan on 6 months, if you want production expect a year and a half to 2 years depending on how fast you work or you’re willing to pay. A single relatively simple case can run $600 or $700 and that’s not even using a 5 axis, you can easily spend that and more paying someone to do the drawings or even just refine them so do as much as you can yourself (you still have the electrical side as well). You will need several prototypes to get things perfect especially since you haven’t done this and while you may be happy with a few issues people buying will not when they pay those prices. When all that gets done, then you get the fun job of doing the whole thing again while finding an anodizer who meets the quality you expect. Most of their work is industrial not cosmetic, Ryan Norbauer did two interviews with Tahae Types and in one of them he talks about how much trouble finishes alone can be. You may want to listen to those just to see what all he deal's with when doing a case.


Regarding money, it's not a matter of not making money, it’s a matter of how much you are prepared to spend and very possibly lose. This is a hobby, and yes, some people make money on it, but pretty much every one of them lost money before they made money. This isn’t the typical spend money to make money, they simply lost money in the end. Business is hard but when it’s a hobby it’s worse, people are passionate and would rather eat the cost than compromise. You could easily get ten thousand or more in the hole and still not have anything you could sell.

So, I ask again, is this something you expect to make yourself or do you just want it made one way or another because it's always cheaper to let someone else do it and just buy what they made.
Novelkeys NK65AE w/62g Zilents/39g springs
More
62g Zilents/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, pic
| Filco MJ2 L.E. Vortex Case, Jailhouse Blues, heavily customized
More
Vortex case squared up/blasted finish removed/custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, foam sound dampened, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs, 40g actuation
| GMMK TKL
More
w/ Kailh Purple Pros/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 Magnetic cable
| PF65 3d printed 65% w/LCD and hot swap
More
Box Jades, Interchangeable trim, mini lcd, QMK, underglow, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, O-rings, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, in progress link
| Magicforce 68
More
MF68 pcb, Outemu Blues, in progress
| YMDK75 Jail Housed Gateron Blues
More
J-spacers, YMDK Thick PBT, O-rings, SIP sockets
| KBT Race S L.E.
More
Ergo Clears, custom WASD caps
| Das Pro
More
Costar model with browns
| GH60
More
Cherry Blacks, custom 3d printed case
| Logitech Illumininated | IBM Model M (x2)
Definitive Omron Guide. | 3d printed Keyboard FAQ/Discussion

Offline Walshware

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 19
Re: New to the scene and looking for some guidance
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 09:31:59 »
I really appreciate the guidance, anything like this goes a long way for me. I haven’t been able to find any designers for keyboards, I only found one industrial designer that could bring my project to the manufacturer but they quoted me 80k which was a joke and I left it at that. I will look into learning to do those things on YouTube, and as a worst case scenario I will have to do that. I was hoping though, to not have to do everything myself since I’ve been too busy lately and didn’t want this project to take too long.

For your last question what do you mean exactly? If you’re asking if I want to sell my idea to an existing company, I have thought about it and will look into that as a last resort; I also have no idea where to start with that.

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 4518
Re: New to the scene and looking for some guidance
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 22:18:47 »
I really appreciate the guidance, anything like this goes a long way for me. I haven’t been able to find any designers for keyboards, I only found one industrial designer that could bring my project to the manufacturer but they quoted me 80k which was a joke and I left it at that. I will look into learning to do those things on YouTube, and as a worst case scenario I will have to do that. I was hoping though, to not have to do everything myself since I’ve been too busy lately and didn’t want this project to take too long.

For your last question what do you mean exactly? If you’re asking if I want to sell my idea to an existing company, I have thought about it and will look into that as a last resort; I also have no idea where to start with that.
For the last question,
If all you want is to be able to have this product available to you start talking maybe someone will do it and save you the hassle. It's much cheaper to buy a final product than to make it yourself. Sometimes people just want a certain feature and there's no need to get into manufacturing just to make it happen when someone else can just incorporate it into their design for very little.

Manufacturing is a long journey that doesn't always end well, you can get in so deep there's no way you can earn enough back to pay for it all. I hate to tell you this but $80k isn't unreasonable, you can do it for less, but it's not unreasonable by any means especially in a hobby with $500 or even $1000 keyboards. Also, finding someone to design it for you will be difficult, it's not like there's a lot of people who do it. Some do, but only as a hobby, if they are going to design one it will be for themselves. The few pros aren't going to be cheap and again, they probably are doing it for their own company and designing for themselves or their company. Any outsider is going to expect going rate.

Let's talk about that $80k
Every time my company got a new client we had to tell them similar, not sure why everyone thinks they can go right to manufacturing for a couple hundred bucks despite nothing but an idea but they all do, no offense it's just how it is. Once they finish freaking out we'd explain, yes, it may be $80k, it may take a lot more, but you don't need it right now and when/if you get to that point there's ways to get it if you have a good product. Meanwhile there is a lot of steps between now and getting your product into production, steps that you can work on that don't cost much. The further you get the easier it is to get the rest.

Get on youtube and start learning how to do this stuff, engineering and prototypes take time, you still need to do testing, revisions, more testing... All of this is going to take a year or more and you can fund it yourself if you do the work yourself. While waiting on prototypes you can look into shops, financing and such. Loans, investors, group buys and crowd sourcing are all options and all have pros and cons but again, a ways off, probably a year and a half or more.
Novelkeys NK65AE w/62g Zilents/39g springs
More
62g Zilents/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, pic
| Filco MJ2 L.E. Vortex Case, Jailhouse Blues, heavily customized
More
Vortex case squared up/blasted finish removed/custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, foam sound dampened, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs, 40g actuation
| GMMK TKL
More
w/ Kailh Purple Pros/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 Magnetic cable
| PF65 3d printed 65% w/LCD and hot swap
More
Box Jades, Interchangeable trim, mini lcd, QMK, underglow, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, O-rings, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, in progress link
| Magicforce 68
More
MF68 pcb, Outemu Blues, in progress
| YMDK75 Jail Housed Gateron Blues
More
J-spacers, YMDK Thick PBT, O-rings, SIP sockets
| KBT Race S L.E.
More
Ergo Clears, custom WASD caps
| Das Pro
More
Costar model with browns
| GH60
More
Cherry Blacks, custom 3d printed case
| Logitech Illumininated | IBM Model M (x2)
Definitive Omron Guide. | 3d printed Keyboard FAQ/Discussion

Offline Zustiur

  • Posts: 235
Re: New to the scene and looking for some guidance
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 26 May 2020, 02:07:47 »
I get the impression you're trying to retain the IP of your product. I respect that but doing so makes it hard to give advice or offer to assist with the design. Can you at least provide some vague details?
You've mentioned keyboard and gaming but that's as much as we know.
Is it full size? Is it for one hand only? Is it similar to an existing design that we could look at to get a rough estimate of complexity?

Offline Walshware

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 19
Re: New to the scene and looking for some guidance
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 26 May 2020, 09:48:01 »
I see, no I would like to make this into a business and sell it, I don’t just want one to use it for myself. My design is relatively standard, it’s a normal board but with a need for an extra pcb at an angle with 5~ keys on it, inlaid in a normal sized case but just extended a bit. Also the 80k was referring to just the design, they weren’t even talking about manufacturing yet, even after they mentioned how relatively simplistic it would be to design what I wanted.
 
You mention pros that design keyboards do it for their company, do you know any of them? Because one option I’ve been seriously looking at is selling my idea if I can’t find a partner to help push this along. And I agree 100% that I will most likely have and should look into the engineering stuff on YouTube, I am hoping to find a partner with knowledge of this to help, because 2+ years or more is not what anyone wants

Speaking about the design, it’s a normal board but with a need for an extra pcb at an angle with 5~ keys on it, inlaid in a normal sized case but just extended a bit. I’m thinking 60% but I haven’t decided between 60 and 70 yet. In short, it is a normal 60% with an extended case to allow 5 extra keys but at an angle, so the pcb/keys will need to be held in place with some added plastic in the case (something I imagine is really simple) also if you are thinking this will look like how the razor black widow has 5 random keys to the left of the normal board, you’re way off. It shouldn’t be too hard in my opinion, but that’s also the opinion of someone who doesn’t have experience in this field.

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 4518
Re: New to the scene and looking for some guidance
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 26 May 2020, 23:15:15 »
I suspect whoever you talked to was actually one of these firms that "help inventors". Many of them are simply fronts for venture capitalists (vulture capitalists), sure they can still get it made but they really only want work on products they think will make a profit (as 6 zeros). Those they think will do that they demand a chunk of and those they don't are given the brush off. That doesn't mean the design is bad, just that they can't see any profit in it for them. I once had one admit they knew nothing of my industry or business but if they invested they would completely transform it under their direction. They have money, no one said they had brains.


As for selling the idea, I doubt you will get anyone to buy the idea off you for this, it would be hard to patent and easy to copy. Someone may be willing to use the idea, and if your name had some weight maaaaaaaybe give you a small cut of the profits but paying for it is very unlikely.

I know of some designers, I don't know them personally and I wouldn't want to point fingers anyhow.
I do have an idea though, which I will PM you with.
Novelkeys NK65AE w/62g Zilents/39g springs
More
62g Zilents/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, pic
| Filco MJ2 L.E. Vortex Case, Jailhouse Blues, heavily customized
More
Vortex case squared up/blasted finish removed/custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, foam sound dampened, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs, 40g actuation
| GMMK TKL
More
w/ Kailh Purple Pros/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 Magnetic cable
| PF65 3d printed 65% w/LCD and hot swap
More
Box Jades, Interchangeable trim, mini lcd, QMK, underglow, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, O-rings, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, in progress link
| Magicforce 68
More
MF68 pcb, Outemu Blues, in progress
| YMDK75 Jail Housed Gateron Blues
More
J-spacers, YMDK Thick PBT, O-rings, SIP sockets
| KBT Race S L.E.
More
Ergo Clears, custom WASD caps
| Das Pro
More
Costar model with browns
| GH60
More
Cherry Blacks, custom 3d printed case
| Logitech Illumininated | IBM Model M (x2)
Definitive Omron Guide. | 3d printed Keyboard FAQ/Discussion

Offline Zustiur

  • Posts: 235
Re: New to the scene and looking for some guidance
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 27 May 2020, 05:21:37 »
Ok, sounds like you still have some details to work out. Try drawing it in keyboard-layout-editor.com. Play with your concept until you know how many keys you actually want.

Offline DALExSNAIL

  • The User Formerly Known as 'Formerly DudeSnail'
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1500
  • Location: Port Wentworth, GA
  • 𝖋𝖚𝖈𝖐 𝖆𝖑𝖕𝖘
Re: New to the scene and looking for some guidance
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 27 May 2020, 08:38:15 »
Don't wanna seem like I'm downing you here, or raining on your parade, but topics like this are honestly best done privately after being in the community for a little while. Don't want to give people the impression that you're just here to make and sell something, and not interact.

A good course of action for you might be to join the ai03 discord and chat with the fellas in there. As far as I can tell that's the best resource for people knowledgeable on keyboard design specifically. For the most part they're easy to get along with, and I'm sure if your idea is something keyboard users would be excited for there will be some people in there willing to help.

But don't pop in and just act all corporate about it. Get to know some people, and possibly try learning a bit of it yourself. Most of it isn't terribly difficult, and I'm sure they'd be willing to help.

Offline Walshware

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 19
Re: New to the scene and looking for some guidance
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 27 May 2020, 11:55:53 »
I see thank you, I’ll check it out. I should have made sure of the site etiquette first

Offline DALExSNAIL

  • The User Formerly Known as 'Formerly DudeSnail'
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1500
  • Location: Port Wentworth, GA
  • 𝖋𝖚𝖈𝖐 𝖆𝖑𝖕𝖘
Re: New to the scene and looking for some guidance
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 27 May 2020, 12:12:36 »
I see thank you, I’ll check it out. I should have made sure of the site etiquette first

You're fine man, just want to make sure you get off to a good start is all  :thumb: