IBM G70 CRT (my analysis)

[EverythingIBM]

You should write your resumes backwards.

Only if I "had connections" like someone else.

[Hak Foo]

If this monitor is so bad, prove it. It's better than all of the CRTs you've owned or used. Like I said, the tube is resistant to distortion with light change.

And my 300PLs couldn't have worked better. They get the job done well. The only IBM comptuers I'm not so fond of are netvistas and aptivas.

In 2005, I traded a brand-new $350 LCD Viewsonic VX910 for a $65 used Sun GDM-5410.  Gorgeous picture.  2048x1536 at 60Hz, 1600x1200 at 85.

[EverythingIBM]

In 2005, I traded a brand-new $350 LCD Viewsonic VX910 for a $65 used Sun GDM-5410.  Gorgeous picture.  2048x1536 at 60Hz, 1600x1200 at 85.

According to this website, it's a trinitron rebranded with a sun logo.

I do like the case however, cool lavender strip. Much better than the ugly sony ones:


If I ever see one of those, I'll be sure to pick it up. I'd love 640x480 on 21"

Most definitely better than viewsonic. I used viewsonic before... I thought they were too blurry for my taste.

[EverythingIBM]

Quite literally, you won't be picking it up. They weigh easily as much as the computers they tend to go with (70lbs).

Friend has one. Ridiculously sharp image (sickeningly so, in fact) but absolutely huge in the wrong way (depth).

Awww man! You're making me starting to want one now. But shipping one of those would be too much. Might put an ad for one later; I'm sure there's someone who's willing to give it for free or a small fee.
I'm actually very strong; I inadvertently get lots of exercise.
Although, I'd have to wear something (leather gloves?) to protect my hands from getting blisters carrying a heavy **** thing like that.

You think it would fit nicely on top of my 300PL?

[EverythingIBM]

Quite seriously, don't put it on a 300PL. I do not exaggerate when I talk about the poor case design. It could easily be damaged beyond repair by a 70lb CRT monitor.

When carrying monitors like this I tend to carry them with the screen against my chest and hands on the bottom sides about halfway to the back.

I was kidding. It would crush most computers, or at least make them bow. I'm actually wondering if even 47 pounds is a little heavy for it.

Sometimes if I'm carrying a big computer for long distances (such as walking home with one), I rest it on my belt. That way it makes it effortless.

[InSanCen]

In 2005, I traded a brand-new $350 LCD Viewsonic VX910 for a $65 used Sun GDM-5410.  Gorgeous picture.  2048x1536 at 60Hz, 1600x1200 at 85.

Having had a look at the specs, I suspect that the LaCie's used the same tube. Same resolution, and the description of it's sharpness is spot on.

I'll be having a look out for one at that kind of price.

[D-EJ915]

I wouldn't be surprised, Sony made those

[EverythingIBM]

I wouldn't be surprised, Sony made those

According to this website, it's a trinitron rebranded with a sun logo.

Indeed.

[microsoft windows]

I was kidding. It would crush most computers, or at least make them bow. I'm actually wondering if even 47 pounds is a little heavy for it.

Sometimes if I'm carrying a big computer for long distances (such as walking home with one), I rest it on my belt. That way it makes it effortless.

I've ridden home from work on a bicycle with a computer once, an LCD another time.

[EverythingIBM]

I've ridden home from work on a bicycle with a computer once, an LCD another time.

That's a great way to save money instead of buying gas all the time... and exercise too.
It's a win/win.

It would be cool if you could carry a 70 pound CRT on your bike though.

[instantkamera]

LaCie just OEMs stuff, they don't make anything. I can prove it with my EXTREMELY OVERPRICED LaCie external hard drive. It's actually an hitachi with a glossy LaCie case.
It's 200GB I think -- cost well over $150. The reason why I got it was because all the other external hard drives were in some funky colours, stuff I use has to be business-appropriate. Overpriced internals that they never made (most likely with CRTs that they made -- never knew they made any).

I did read this whole thread. You people may know keyboards, but SOME of you def have your head up your ass when it comes to computers in general.


Most monitor manufacturers did not make all their internals. This is still the case, but really has **** all to do with the overall quality. In fact, what company DOES design, build and implemented all of the technology in a given electronic?
 

The colour of it is so perfect that you can't get any better.

Yes, you can.

Since we are actually arguing LaCie monitors vs. this IBM, I can tell EverythingIBM really has no, even ENTHUSIAST, graphic/design/photo background.

Up until about 2004-5, the Sony and Mitsubishi Aperture-grille (Trinitron and Diamondtron) were really the ONLY monitors anyone bought for use as calibrated displays in the aforementioned fields. The LaCies, along with NEC CRTs, were LUSTED after (they were diamondtron based), as were Sony's "Artisan". The LaCies, as did the artisan, even packaged with their own hood and hardware calibrator (which the still do for their high-end LCDs).

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/accessories/sony-artisan.shtml

http://www.computerdisplays.co.uk/21%20inch%20monitors/lacie_BlueII_22.htm

enlighten yourself.

[ch_123]

Don't bother arguing with him. He's a useless trolltard.

The vast majority of other people on the forum actually know things about proper computer components.

[microsoft windows]

And you aren't?

[microsoft windows]

That's a great way to save money instead of buying gas all the time... and exercise too.
It's a win/win.

It would be cool if you could carry a 70 pound CRT on your bike though.

I'm Microsoft Windows. I love to win.

[ch_123]

And you aren't?

Yeah, I am one of those people who knows things about computer hardware. Thanks for reminding me.

[EverythingIBM]

I did read this whole thread. You people may know keyboards, but SOME of you def have your head up your ass when it comes to computers in general.

Most monitor manufacturers did not make all their internals. This is still the case, but really has **** all to do with the overall quality. In fact, what company DOES design, build and implemented all of the technology in a given electronic?

Yes, you can.

Since we are actually arguing LaCie monitors vs. this IBM, I can tell EverythingIBM really has no, even ENTHUSIAST, graphic/design/photo background.

Up until about 2004-5, the Sony and Mitsubishi Aperture-grille (Trinitron and Diamondtron) were really the ONLY monitors anyone bought for use as calibrated displays in the aforementioned fields. The LaCies, along with NEC CRTs, were LUSTED after (they were diamondtron based), as were Sony's "Artisan". The LaCies, as did the artisan, even packaged with their own hood and hardware calibrator (which the still do for their high-end LCDs).

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/accessories/sony-artisan.shtml

http://www.computerdisplays.co.uk/21%20inch%20monitors/lacie_BlueII_22.htm

enlighten yourself.

I actually do graphics designing w/ photography & game designing too.

This IBM G70 does have perfect colour and is extremely sharp. It IS made by IBM in the US, not china or generic parts like monitors today.

[ch_123]

Are you sure it wasn't designed in the US, assembled in China?

[EverythingIBM]

Are you sure it wasn't designed in the US, assembled in China?

Oh I can tell it's US quality. And yes, it is manufactured in the US of A. A REAL IBM product, not some cheap stuff. Don't go all huffy over my intellistations, yeah whatever they're made in china (they serve as good as modern computers go) -- but my real pride is my older IBM stuff not made in china.

Some day you'll see that the IBM 5150 is still a very good computer. I'm sure there's some way to hook up a blue ray drive if someone manufactures an ISA to SATA card.

[instantkamera]

I actually do graphics designing w/ photography & game designing too.

So does EVERYONE else on the internet, congrats.

This IBM G70 does have perfect colour and is extremely sharp.

Those definitely sound like things that a professional digital content creator would say

Colour: NOTHING has perfect colour. How are you even defining perfect colour? (Hint: "It looks good to MY eyes" is not even close to the right answer.)

Sharpness: Again, pretty subjective. You could look at the dot pitch, which is 0.28 the G70. Pretty ****ing pedestrian.
 
The 0.24 AG pitch on either the sony or Mitsu (LaCie) is not directly comparable, but would be around 0.26 ish. The improved contrast of the AG monitors though would have you perceiving greater sharpness.

It IS made by IBM in the US, not china or generic parts like monitors today.

Although Im pretty sure you are wrong, and I'd almost be willing to pay to have that POS shipped to me so I can crack it open with a bat and mail you back each generic "Chinese" component one-by-one, the fact is IT DOESN'T MATTER.

Question: who cares?
Answer: Not even IBM. They have tonnes of monitors that are better than this POS, and those all use Sony Trinitron tubes.

http://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/visuals/mwbook2.pdf

1280 x 1024 at 60hz. Yeah, I bet thats wonderful on the eyes.

[ch_123]

Oh I can tell it's US quality. And yes, it is manufactured in the US of A. A REAL IBM product, not some cheap stuff. Don't go all huffy over my intellistations, yeah whatever they're made in china (they serve as good as modern computers go) -- but my real pride is my older IBM stuff not made in china.

Some day you'll see that the IBM 5150 is still a very good computer. I'm sure there's some way to hook up a blue ray drive if someone manufactures an ISA to SATA card.

IBM 5150 was a serious piece of kit, I've doubtlessly said this many times. By the 1990s, IBM was just making cheap ****.

Again, it's very easy to play around with "Made in" labels, there's all sorts of grey areas there.

[InSanCen]

1280 x 1024 at 60hz. Yeah, I bet thats wonderful on the eyes.

I had a good long genuine LOL at that.

It hurt to get rid of my Lacies, but now that I can pick up equivalents Mitsu based CRT's for <£100, shipped... guess what I'm doing? Yup, reinforcing my desk...

"The Twins" are coming back baby...

And I might see if I can get hold of a G70 (Assuming some mad idiot has one stashed away for some obscure reason). I can then compare, review, rip to shreds, and then ceremonially kick the **** out of it, possibly ending with a nice drop down an empty liftshaft I know of, all in HD video of course.

[EverythingIBM]

So does EVERYONE else on the internet, congrats.



Those definitely sound like things that a professional digital content creator would say

Colour: NOTHING has perfect colour. How are you even defining perfect colour? (Hint: "It looks good to MY eyes" is not even close to the right answer.)

Sharpness: Again, pretty subjective. You could look at the dot pitch, which is 0.28 the G70. Pretty ****ing pedestrian.
 
The 0.24 AG pitch on either the sony or Mitsu (LaCie) is not directly comparable, but would be around 0.26 ish. The improved contrast of the AG monitors though would have you perceiving greater sharpness.





Although Im pretty sure you are wrong, and I'd almost be willing to pay to have that POS shipped to me so I can crack it open with a bat and mail you back each generic "Chinese" component one-by-one, the fact is IT DOESN'T MATTER.

Question: who cares?
Answer: Not even IBM. They have tonnes of monitors that are better than this POS, and those all use Sony Trinitron tubes.

http://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/visuals/mwbook2.pdf

1280 x 1024 at 60hz. Yeah, I bet thats wonderful on the eyes.

I don't run it at 1280 x 1024, are you bonkers? I run it in 640x480.

It actually is flicker-free even in 60Hz (and does support higher refresh rates, but I don't like them). If you read, it has flicker-free technology. Unlike the newer cheap chinese CRTs made today (other typical CRTs I can't stand at 60Hz, it's like an eye seizure).

I'd never ship you my G70, it's 47 pounds, it uses the same screws as in a Model M (plus the whole thing is surrounded in metal lining, good luck getting that open). And finally, I want to be able to use it... no one is breaking it.

I meant graphics designing as an actual job... but whatever. And no, most graphics people do on the internet is laughable.

[ch_123]

I wonder if it has the same plastic rivets that Model Ms do too.

[EverythingIBM]

I wonder if it has the same plastic rivets that Model Ms do too.

Funny you should mention it, the 300PL does have plastic rivets if anyone bothered to compare IBM products. You can even see that they were melted on. Although the PC 300 rivets are a lot more sturdy, and none of them broke off on any of the cases I've used.

[instantkamera]

I don't run it at 1280 x 1024, are you bonkers? I run it in 640x480.

...

I meant graphics designing as an actual job... but whatever. And no, most graphics people do on the internet is laughable.

I bet you manage to get tonnes done in that giant 640x480 workspace, do you use a 4x6 inch drafting table too??

It actually is flicker-free even in 60Hz (and does support higher refresh rates, but I don't like them). If you read, it has flicker-free technology.

I did read: http://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/visuals/mwbook2.pdf

indicates that the higher mdel G7x have flicker-free, but not the g70/g70t.
In fact, this "flicker-free" they refer to:

Max 85Hz flicker free mode 1280x1024

it's just a preset res/refresh that WONT FLICKER (not some technology on top of a 60hz refresh that magically looks great).

 Unlike the newer cheap chinese CRTs made today (other typical CRTs I can't stand at 60Hz, it's like an eye seizure).

You are the only one who gives two ****s about Chinese. I simply stated your CRT is a modest performer compared to some sony Trinitron and Mitsubishi Diamondtron screen, both of which are NOT Chinese.

I'd never ship you my G70, it's 47 pounds, it uses the same screws as in a Model M (plus the whole thing is surrounded in metal lining, good luck getting that open). And finally, I want to be able to use it... no one is breaking it.

That really IS ok with me. Not a single person in the world, including the dude who gave that paperweight, wants a damn thing to do with it.

G series = SUPER VGA COLOR (General Purpose)

 IBM G Series General CRT Monitors provide
perfect balance of price and performance

In other words, NOT the best. FACT.

[D-EJ915]

60Hz flicker free lol, good times.  I was wondering exactly what he was talking about but didn't care enough to look it up myself.

[EverythingIBM]

I bet you manage to get tonnes done in that giant 640x480 workspace, do you use a 4x6 inch drafting table too??

I did read: http://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/visuals/mwbook2.pdf

indicates that the higher mdel G7x have flicker-free, but not the g70/g70t.
In fact, this "flicker-free" they refer to:

it's just a preset res/refresh that WONT FLICKER (not some technology on top of a 60hz refresh that magically looks great).

You are the only one who gives two ****s about Chinese. I simply stated your CRT is a modest performer compared to some sony Trinitron and Mitsubishi Diamondtron screen, both of which are NOT Chinese.

That really IS ok with me. Not a single person in the world, including the dude who gave that paperweight, wants a damn thing to do with it.

G series = SUPER VGA COLOR (General Purpose)

In other words, NOT the best. FACT.

Incorrect, the G70s are flicker free:
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/SBJR-3XNK6F.html
You're reading the wrong thing buddy, the max resolution is 1024x768 (and is supported with flicker free on that).

The PDF states 85hz WITH flicker free, not one and the same. It's a different flicker-free technology (I think interpolation?)

Flicker-free using Hz requires a minimum of 100, not 85.

[D-EJ915]

most people would think 75Hz is flicker free meaning it doesn't blind you like 60Hz does.  That wiki link has 0 to do with CRTs as well, just talking about that new 120Hz LCD stuff.

Interpolation is what you use to make images a higher resolution.

[ch_123]

I don't see any flicker on my 60Hz screens. Maybe it's something to do with the fact that the human eye can't take in that many distinct images in one second anyway...

[gr1m]

I noticed flicker on my old 20" LCD monitor (probably because I sat closer to it than my new 24"). It was especially visible when viewing a grey screen.

[ch_123]

Could be the backlight failing

[EverythingIBM]

I don't see any flicker on my 60Hz screens. Maybe it's something to do with the fact that the human eye can't take in that many distinct images in one second anyway...

I see flickering on some 60Hz CRTs, particularly compaq & HP ones. Even the C170s have a bit of a weird flicker when at 65Hz, so I keep them at 85.

But the G70 looks flicker free to me at 60Hz. I even asked multiple people if they seen any flickering, they said no.

Man, the G70 cost $679 back then. The black version cost $719. Interestingly enough, it has some features that other ones don't in the G category. It's the only one with "double focus adjustment", as well as "autoborderless" whatever that is.

[EverythingIBM]

I noticed flicker on my old 20" LCD monitor (probably because I sat closer to it than my new 24"). It was especially visible when viewing a grey screen.

That weird crazy flickering pattern on LCDs when viewing greys (especially dark greys) is usually normal for most (the only one that doesn't seem to do it is my thinkpad LCD). The cheap HP/LG LCDs at our school did that so horribly, and they were brand new. All of them are still working I should note... just damn painful and horrible to look at.

It's something else and not an aging backlight.

[instantkamera]

Incorrect, the G70s are flicker free:
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/SBJR-3XNK6F.html
You're reading the wrong thing buddy, the max resolution is 1024x768 (and is supported with flicker free on that).

I guess IBM, among other ****ty things they make, has inconsistent documentation.

But let's actually read the page you provided:

Maximum resolution x colors   1280x1024x16M

Flicker-Free   Yes, up to 1024x768

Refresh Rate (Vertical Scan)(Range from 50-105 Hz NI)
selected examples:

...

60Hz - 1280x1024 (Non-Interlaced)

So 1024x768 is NOT the max res, it's just the highest res at which you won't be running at 60hz max.

The PDF states 85hz WITH flicker free, not one and the same. It's a different flicker-free technology (I think interpolation?)

No, it doesn't, don't re-phrase for your benefit.

"Max 85Hz flicker free mode 1280x1024"

In other words, 85hz ensures flicker-free (this is commonly accepted knowledge), and that can only be achieved at resolutions up to X.

Interpolation has nothing to do with this, you may be talking about INTERLACING, which is actually WORSE (notice how all the supported resolutions are NON-interlaced).

Flicker-free using Hz requires a minimum of 100, not 85.

That link doesn't talk AT all about computer monitors, but DOES re-enforce what I am saying. Flickr-free is achieved by increasing the refresh rate. Period.

Try again?

[ch_123]

So wait, CRT monitors could support resolutions that they couldnt operate at flicker free?

That explains a lot of things to me involving an old SGI CRT monitor I had the misfortune of using...

[instantkamera]

So wait, CRT monitors could support resolutions that they couldnt operate at flicker free?

That explains a lot of things to me involving an old SGI CRT monitor I had the misfortune of using...

The problem is that "flicker" is subjective. 60hz is just generally agreed upon as the bare minimum tolerable refresh. This will change based on the viewer and the screen size, thus it is favourable to have support for higher refresh rates at ALL supported resolution, even if this was not the case. I couldnt ever operate a computer screen in 60hz.

[D-EJ915]

If you are viewing motion 60Hz isn't bad and even 30Hz is fine (this is what my TV does 1080P at) but viewing static screens it is brutal.

And generally speaking if a monitor supports higher than 60Hz you can also run it down to 60Hz if you wish...

[ch_123]

The problem is that "flicker" is subjective. 60hz is just generally agreed upon as the bare minimum tolerable refresh. This will change based on the viewer and the screen size, thus it is favourable to have support for higher refresh rates at ALL supported resolution, even if this was not the case. I couldnt ever operate a computer screen in 60hz.

This screen, a 20" granite SGI CRT was set up on a computer over VGA, operating at 1600x1200. At that res, the flickers were practically headache inducing, so it had to be set down to 1280x1024. We replaced the VGA cable, and the flickers went, but the res maxed out at 1280x1024 or thereabouts.

At the time I didn't understand it at all. But that flicker free resolution range thing explains it all. After all, the Indy it was designed to be hooked up to could only operate at 1280x1024. Maybe higher resolutions were supported over the monitors 13W3 connector, but over VGA, it just couldn't hack it.

[instantkamera]

most people would think 75Hz is flicker free meaning it doesn't blind you like 60Hz does.  That wiki link has 0 to do with CRTs as well, just talking about that new 120Hz LCD stuff.

Interpolation is what you use to make images a higher resolution.

Actually the wiki is referring to television standards, specifically PAL and SECAM.

Their content is interlaced (which I believe is the INTERPOLATION EIBM foolishly mentioned) 25FPS becomes 50 Fields per second (NTSC spec is 30FPS -> 60 Fields ... somewhat less flickery than PAL). So they wanted to create a smoother looking display on CRTs, by having more FIELDS drawn in the same time frame.

But you are right, nothing to do with the CRT monitors we are using, except that the principle of reducing flicker is to increase refresh rate.

[hyperlinked]

The problem is that "flicker" is subjective. 60hz is just generally agreed upon as the bare minimum tolerable refresh. This will change based on the viewer and the screen size, thus it is favourable to have support for higher refresh rates at ALL supported resolution, even if this was not the case. I couldnt ever operate a computer screen in 60hz.

It gets more interesting. The subjective flicker can change depending on the level of fatigue of the viewer. Your brain is responsible for fusing the flashed images together into a smooth picture. The more tired you are, the harder it gets for your brain to fuse the images together.

You might be fine at 60Hz when you're fresh, but after a few hours, you might be noticing fatigue, more flicker, or even headaches as ch_123 brought up.

[InSanCen]

You might be fine at 60Hz when you're fresh, but after a few hours, you might be noticing fatigue, more flicker, or even headaches as ch_123 brought up.

Indeed. I notice this. I notice flicker at higher frequencies than most, but I have really weird eyes. I can usually deal with 75hz, but when tired, I can see the flicker, especially in my peripheral vision. At that point, I have to stop using it, or bump up to 85hz.

That said, it's been a long time since I used a CRT with problems running decent resolutions at 85hz or over.

[EverythingIBM]

It gets more interesting. The subjective flicker can change depending on the level of fatigue of the viewer. Your brain is responsible for fusing the flashed images together into a smooth picture. The more tired you are, the harder it gets for your brain to fuse the images together.

You might be fine at 60Hz when you're fresh, but after a few hours, you might be noticing fatigue, more flicker, or even headaches as ch_123 brought up.

I play games on my stupid CRTs at 60hz all night long and I never notice any flickering.

Either I'm used to 60hz, this is a flicker free monitor, or everyone else has a bad visual IQ.

[InSanCen]

DO IT!

But please, no HD video, or it'll take me 4 hours to buffer it...

I'll get the keys for the liftshaft ready... One of my friends* has answered my rather unusual request, and I'll end by quoting him:-

"I've got one. Why do you want a piece of **** monitor... thought you had the LaCie's anyway?"

He laughed a lot when I told him about this thread, and is looking forward to the video... ;-)

*He is, by the way, the aforementioned Graphic Designer, responsible for purchasing these things initially. He still insists they will stand up to anything LCD-wise under £1000. Warranty was the sole reason they changed them out for what I think are S-IPS based LCD's.

[EverythingIBM]

DO IT!

But please, no HD video, or it'll take me 4 hours to buffer it...

I've never seen any IBM G70s around myself except this rare gem I was lucky to pick up.

The closest I can find is the P201 for sale by recycled goods:


Probably better than those sun monitors too. Better looking case too.

[hyperlinked]

Indeed. I notice this. I notice flicker at higher frequencies than most, but I have really weird eyes. I can usually deal with 75hz, but when tired, I can see the flicker, especially in my peripheral vision. At that point, I have to stop using it, or bump up to 85hz.

I have the same sensitivity to low refresh rates. A 60Hz CRT refresh rate for a few hours will literally make my eyes feel like they've been punched. Low refresh rates were really bad for my productivity. I always made sure to spend some extra money for the nicer monitors.

[instantkamera]

I play games on my stupid CRTs at 60hz all night long and I never notice any flickering.

Either I'm used to 60hz, this is a flicker free monitor, or everyone else has a bad visual IQ.

Irony, you has it.

[EverythingIBM]

I'll get the keys for the liftshaft ready... One of my friends* has answered my rather unusual request, and I'll end by quoting him:-

"I've got one. Why do you want a piece of **** monitor... thought you had the LaCie's anyway?"

He laughed a lot when I told him about this thread, and is looking forward to the video... ;-)

*He is, by the way, the aforementioned Graphic Designer, responsible for purchasing these things initially. He still insists they will stand up to anything LCD-wise under £1000. Warranty was the sole reason they changed them out for what I think are S-IPS based LCD's.

It's not a piece of **** monitor. It'll last longer than any lacie junk.

[instantkamera]

It's not a piece of **** monitor. It'll last longer than any lacie junk.

Yes, it is, and no it wont.

[InSanCen]

And for the environmentally conscious of you out there, I'll be sure to recycle what's left of it after I scrape it out of the lift shaft...

Must remember to bring a dustpan and brush.

Just a quick comparison, for anyone wanting to figure the odds...

IBM G70

Electron Blue II 22"

[EverythingIBM]

Irony, you has it.

No, my visual IQ and coordination is very well versed. I just don't get fatigued over CRTs... a lot of LCD backlights hurt my eyes though.

And it's "you have it", not "you has it," unless that was a deliberate colloquial effect, or English isn't your native language.