IBM G70 CRT (my analysis)

[EverythingIBM]

Alright, recently I picked up an IBM G70 CRT (for free from a kind dutch fellow, no, not webwit), type 6544-403. IBM didn't seem to have any PDFs on this thing for download which is too bad. So, I'll post what I've learned from personal experience.
These things were made from 1995 to 1997. Mine happens to be a 1996 production.
I think mrA500 had one of these too.

Here's a few pros:
A) very thick chassis, metal plated, sturdy and very well built base (swivels nicely, isn't flimsy.
B) the front panel is laid out logically, and the panel buttons are made out of rubber with a very clicky mechanism. The brightness and contrast have their own special buttons above the lower panel.
C) the tube turns on very quickly, and isn't loud. It's actually like a soft ponging buckling spring.
D) the picture is 100% perfectly sharp, the colours are all pure and not discoloured like many older CRTs (I've seen some green tinted ADI ones).
E) It's beige! Okay most people wouldn't consider that a plus.

Here's some cons:
A) there could be more ventilation holes, the C170s are very open.
B) lots of little crevices for dirt, it is possible to clean but time consuming. Good thing I only had to do it once.
C) the VGA cable is kind of thick and heavy... not as flexible as I'd like it. It does say "IBM" on the end of the cable like a model M SDL cord. The logo on the monitor itself looks like the model M style. Very cool.

With that aside, I want to say I am astounded with the tube. You know how most CRTs when you're displaying a white screen, then quickly change to black how the screen shrinks and grows? Well this one doesn't do that! It's actually the first tube I've seen to be resilient to that annoying growing/shrinking with brightness and darkness; it's firm as a rock, and weighs like one too. My IBM C170 CRTs actually do that, they're definitely not as good quality as this one, but support higher refresh rates.

Another thing with this CRT is the moire, there are no issues with it at all, and the colours don't even "bleed" in the corners.

It's the most purest of pure tubes I have seen... I wish I could have one of these things for every computer! But they're quite heavy, especially for a mere 17". Must be all of that high-quality goodness inside.

[Xuan]

Looks like a review?

[EverythingIBM]

Oh, I didn't know there was a review section.

Yeah, I'd consider it as a review.

Kishy, this monitor is excellent. I'm glad I took MW's advice. It's the best CRT I've used or seen.

[InSanCen]

The only CRT's I would have back were the ones based on the Trinitron tubes, or, preferably, LaCie Electron Blue's. I had 2 of the Latter, and had to sell them off due to space constraints. Stunning Monitors that double up as space heaters in the winter. No joke, I never needed to turn my heating on in the winter if these were running.

[hyperlinked]

Enjoy it if you must, but the G70 is not a terribly nice monitor. I stand by my recommendation to look for Viewsonic CRTs.

I've used their CRTs at a previous job before and they seemed like decent monitors. They didn't leave a stunningly good or bad impression. I do seem to remember that their LCD monitors are to be avoided though.

I had a couple of Trinitrons and I do remember them to be excellent.

[ch_123]

Looks like a review?

Review section is for keyboards.

Thankfully.

Only CRTs I'd be interested in are vintage ones for use with the appropriate computers. I can appreciate that certain high-end CRTs (and I assume that this IBM thingy is not one of them) offer better colour/picture quality than even the best flatscreens. But I don't need that level of accuracy, so the numerous advantages of flatscreens are more important to me.

[EverythingIBM]

Review section is for keyboards.

Thankfully.

Only CRTs I'd be interested in are vintage ones for use with the appropriate computers. I can appreciate that certain high-end CRTs (and I assume that this IBM thingy is not one of them) offer better colour/picture quality than even the best flatscreens. But I don't need that level of accuracy, so the numerous advantages of flatscreens are more important to me.

If this CRT isn't high end, then what is? You can't really get much better than this one already. That would also make all modern CRTs low-end.

Like I said, the tube on this thing is amazing, it doesn't get distorted when changing from brighter to darker screens like all CRTs I've used. And the fact that it has perfect colour & sharpness is another amazing thing (I'm not sure how it was used before I obtained it).

But eh, most people don't know quality when it stares them in the face; I don't go by "brand names", I just use the object until I see how well it performs. And yes, there are IBM products which I don't like.

[ch_123]

I mean serious professional ones that cost thousands. The sort that doesn't come as an OEM bundle with a generic business computer.

Most of the perception of flatscreens being **** come from cheap TN panels. I had no real idea of why people still liked CRTs until my neighbor bought a computer with a cheap TN Dell screen. It was so noticeably terrible that I told them to ring up Dell and get a replacement (I don't think they followed up on that)

That said, I don't think I've ever had a flatscreen that wasn't an IPS. The quality of these mean that I can't really justify buying some expensive CRT that is hard to lift and eats up loads of power. Oh, and have fun finding a 30" CRT for the same price as a good 30" flat screen.

[EverythingIBM]

...but you like one of the worst products they ever produced!

If this monitor is so bad, prove it. It's better than all of the CRTs you've owned or used. Like I said, the tube is resistant to distortion with light change.

And my 300PLs couldn't have worked better. They get the job done well. The only IBM comptuers I'm not so fond of are netvistas and aptivas.

[EverythingIBM]

I mean serious professional ones that cost thousands. The sort that doesn't come as an OEM bundle with a generic business computer.

Most of the perception of flatscreens being **** come from cheap TN panels. I had no real idea of why people still liked CRTs until my neighbor bought a computer with a cheap TN Dell screen. It was so noticeably terrible that I told them to ring up Dell and get a replacement (I don't think they followed up on that)

That said, I don't think I've ever had a flatscreen that wasn't an IPS. The quality of these mean that I can't really justify buying some expensive CRT that is hard to lift and eats up loads of power. Oh, and have fun finding a 30" CRT for the same price as a good 30" flat screen.

Price doesn't always determine quality, you should know that (usually the more expensive tags are just a gimmick -- psychologically people assume the more expensive something is, the better it must be). These are definitely not generic CRTs, manfucated in US by IBM themselves!

I wouldn't want a 30" CRT or LCD. I don't watch TV -- and if I need a monitor that big in front of me, I need serious help with my eyes.

[gr1m]

1996, lol.

[Xuan]

Review section is for keyboards.

Thankfully.

It should but it's not.

[EverythingIBM]

I was not referring to the G70 monitor, however it is 'typical' at best.

Indeed, the 300PL. Have you actually seen a computer of equal age and spec from any other manufacturer or even off-the-shelf home assembled rigs?

Things you'll find when comparing the 300PL to other similar machines:

• 300PL has worse case airflow
• 300PL has worse case materials
• 300PL has worse 'fit and finish'
• 300PL has ineffeciently designed absolutely huge motherboard with 'typical at best' integrated features and expansion options
• because of the above point, 300PL takes up a massive amount of desk real estate
• The concept of using a riser card to mount cards in parallel to the motherboard completely defeats the benefits of a desktop-style case (though this is only an issue if you're using a PCI graphics card of any decent capabilities)
• 300PL's cable routing can cause cable damage in certain circumstances

The only true benefit I can think of is that the PSU is standard, so when it fails because of terrible airflow, a replacement would not be hard to install.

The picture on the monitor is perfect -- and there's no distortion. Most CRTs (especially ones that old) have some kind of issues. Especially with moire.

The PSU on my 300PL is fine! Although it is rather cramped in there. I fixed some of the cables so it had more air. It's only 100 watts I believe; probably the less power running through a PSU, the more longevity it has -- assuming the parts are of decent quality.

I rather liked the massive motherboard on the 300PL, it makes everything easier to see and interesting to look at. I also find the riser card kind of clever -- with the power plug on the opposite side facing the PSU.

To be honest, I never really paid attention to the size of it, I guess it is fairly big, but it just doesn't seem like that. Probably because it's flat.

Anyways, time to go play castlevania for MS DOS (I want to finish that stupid frustrating game).

[microsoft windows]

It's just a Pentium. Who cares about air flow?

[microsoft windows]

Review section is for keyboards.

Thankfully.

No it isn't. You should read it carefully.

[ch_123]

All (or at least almost all) of the reviews are about keyboards.

[InSanCen]

If this CRT isn't high end, then what is? You can't really get much better than this one already. That would also make all modern CRTs low-end.

I dare you to say My LaCie's were low end. They were pretty much the best CRT's ever made, and would annihilate your G70 in every possible way, barring Power Consumption and weight (They were farking HEAVY!).

Please, stop spouting your opinions as fact. There is a reason people who needed accuracy used these monitors to make a living. The same reason I shelled out £1500 for the pair, and that was at EOL Firesale prices. The resolution was epic, sharpest picture I have ever seen, and with the bundled colour calibration device, the most accurate monitor I have ever used. The fact that they do not have your beloved IBM sticker attached is and are therefore outside of your personal spectrum of "good" products, quote frankly, irrelevant. There were plenty of monitors made that would walk all over yours. I get offered them for free on a regular basis (Diamond Pro's w/ a Trinitron tube come to mind as one of the better pro-sumer CRT's, I was offered a pallet of 25, free to anyone who bothered to collect them)

[EverythingIBM]

I dare you to say My LaCie's were low end. They were pretty much the best CRT's ever made, and would annihilate your G70 in every possible way, barring Power Consumption and weight (They were farking HEAVY!).

Please, stop spouting your opinions as fact. There is a reason people who needed accuracy used these monitors to make a living. The same reason I shelled out £1500 for the pair, and that was at EOL Firesale prices. The resolution was epic, sharpest picture I have ever seen, and with the bundled colour calibration device, the most accurate monitor I have ever used. The fact that they do not have your beloved IBM sticker attached is and are therefore outside of your personal spectrum of "good" products, quote frankly, irrelevant. There were plenty of monitors made that would walk all over yours. I get offered them for free on a regular basis (Diamond Pro's w/ a Trinitron tube come to mind as one of the better pro-sumer CRT's, I was offered a pallet of 25, free to anyone who bothered to collect them)

LaCie just OEMs stuff, they don't make anything. I can prove it with my EXTREMELY OVERPRICED LaCie external hard drive. It's actually an hitachi with a glossy LaCie case.
It's 200GB I think -- cost well over $150. The reason why I got it was because all the other external hard drives were in some funky colours, stuff I use has to be business-appropriate. Overpriced internals that they never made (most likely with CRTs that they made -- never knew they made any).

The G70 actually has a plastic badge (with a painted embossed IBM). Stickers are for Greenock model Ms and lenovo pads. Now it's probably not power efficient at all, however it is heavy. It's a whopping 47 pounds for only being 17". The colour of it is so perfect that you can't get any better. It's very sharp, flicker free, and is made in USA, not china.

EDIT: Hrm... I'm wondering if it's a little heavy for the top of my 300PL -- but I guess quality + quality = even more quality.

[ch_123]

LaCie makes overpriced hard drives. Therefore their monitors are bad?

Do they like, teach stupidity in schools on the American continent? I don't even...

The G70 actually has a plastic badge (with a painted embossed IBM). Stickers are for Greenock model Ms and lenovo pads. Now it's probably not power efficient at all, however it is heavy. It's a whopping 47 pounds for only being 17". The colour of it is so perfect that you can't get any better. It's very sharp, flicker free, and is made in USA, not china.

In the late 90s and early 2000s, the Greenock factory had become economically un-viable for manufacturing... anything, but the Scottish government funneled money into IBM to prevent them closing the plant. So things like laptops were partially assembled in places like Hungary, and the boys in Greenock wired in the keyboard, installed the RAM or hard drive, and under whatever way the appropriate laws work, they could claim that they were made in Scotland, even though the parts, and most of the actual work original elsewhere.

Same with the keyboards - I have a Model M2 from 1993, and the controller logic has Lexmark markings on it. I'd say that most if not all of the parts of the keyboards were just made by Lexmark and shipped over to be put together.

The idea that IBM, in the late 90s when it was almost going bankrupt, would actually make their own CRTs seems pretty lulzy to me. Maybe they made the nice IBM sticker than went over the made in China sign? =P

[ch_123]

In fairness, I think they did. Why wouldn't they after all?

I was rather amused to see that my Lenovo Thinkpad came with a Hitachi (who bought IBM's hard drive manufacturing division) hard drive and a Matsu****a (the manufacturer of some IBM floppy drives I have) DVD drive. Some things never change.

[gr1m]

Every DVD drive I've used to date (Samsung, Asus, LG, Sony, whatever) is recognized as TSSTCorp (or something like that) in device manager.

[ch_123]

From the power of Google, to the center of your cranium -

TSSTCorp Toshiba Samsung Storage Technology Corporation (TSST) is an international joint venture company of Toshiba Corporation (Japan) and Samsung

I'm pretty sure Optiarc (the collaboration between Sony and NEC) actually make their own stuff, and that there are a few prominent OEMs in the market.

[ch_123]

Grr, you're impacting my ability to clear all new posts! lololol.

I'm sure there were some applications where it wasn't feasible for one reason or another.

If necessary I'll exemplify the 5160: Seagate ST-412.

Back then, IBM made real "Winchester Disks" for real men - things the size of dishwashers... I don't think IBM cared enough about the PC market at that stage to make their own stuff.

I think that probably changed after the fiasco with the "Computer Memories" drives used in the PC/AT that had something like a 20-30% failure rate. Ouch...

A cookie for anyone who can say why they were called Winchester Disks without looking it up... It's a story that reflects badly on certain stereotypes about Americans that us Europeans have...

[Xuan]

It should but it's not.

No it isn't. You should read it carefully.

I've changed my mind, the section is only for keyboards.
I will keep my "For once I agree with MS Windows" card for another time.

[microsoft windows]

It amuses me how worked-up some of you all get when somebody tells us that he likes a monitor he got the other day.

[maxlugar]

The only CRT's I would have back were the ones based on the Trinitron tubes, or, preferably, LaCie Electron Blue's. I had 2 of the Latter, and had to sell them off due to space constraints. Stunning Monitors that double up as space heaters in the winter. No joke, I never needed to turn my heating on in the winter if these were running.

The Sony Trinitrons were excellent CRT TVs and monitors.

I'm still using FD flat screen Trinitron monitors that were packaged with the CCTV system at my club.  They are about 10 years old, but still function very well.

[EverythingIBM]

The Sony Trinitrons were excellent CRT TVs and monitors.

I'm still using FD flat screen Trinitron monitors that were packaged with the CCTV system at my club.  They are about 10 years old, but still function very well.

I have a 1995 RCA TV, its colour is just as good as it was 15 years ago.

[microsoft windows]

I just use an old Magnavox TV I got 17 years ago after my old one broke. It keeps on working so why replace it?

[microsoft windows]

I've changed my mind, the section is only for keyboards.
I will keep my "For once I agree with MS Windows" card for another time.

You're wrong. The Reviews section says absolutely nothing about being just for keyboards. Coming to think about it, it actually for reviewing your IBM monitors.

[D-EJ915]

Heh, IBM made some good CRTs (most were average) but there are others which made great ones too and the final-model Sonys were the best.  Anyway, the G series is a budget model, the P series were the good ones.

[EverythingIBM]

Heh, IBM made some good CRTs (most were average) but there are others which made great ones too and the final-model Sonys were the best.  Anyway, the G series is a budget model, the P series were the good ones.

The Amiga 500 is a budget model too

What's budget back then is high quality today.

The P series were mainly big CRTs, like the P201:


20" is too big... 70 pounds. The G series was more home-user oriented. Same quality.

You'll notice the control buttons are the same as on the G ones.

EDIT: Although I wouldn't mind using that as an alternative to my L190 LCD lol. It would have a big enough resolution for sure. And it's black to match.

[unicomp]

It amuses me how worked-up some of you all get when somebody tells us that he likes a monitor he got the other day.

In order to quell said amusement it might be pertinent to note that this is not just "somebody".

[timw4mail]

I've got a Sony GDM-500PS, and it's the only monitor I have better than my 2 Dell 2209WAs.

That's a nice CRT.

[InSanCen]

LaCie just OEMs stuff, they don't make anything. I can prove it with my EXTREMELY OVERPRICED LaCie external hard drive.

You really have no idea kiddo. WTF has a hard drive got to do with your blanket assertion that modern CRT monitors are ****?

I can assure you they are not, I compared them back to back with several Trinitron tubes, and there was significant difference in favour of the Lacie's. If there had been little or no difference, I would have saved ~£1000 and bought a new engine I needed for the Trike. Pull your head out of your arse, not all modern or non-IBM stuff is crap, and shouting louder when you are called on it won't make any difference. The G70 get's **** on from a great height when compared to high-end monitors.

[Pylon]

If you want to see how bad LCDs get I have an old Panasonic TN from 1999. Huge gamma shifts, it has those light hoirzontal bands when you have dark stuff being displayed, and has next to no viewing angle. My FE700+ CRT absolutely blows it away IQ wise. It even gets less glare than most matte screen LCDs under normal conditions. If it weren't for the fact that I get loads of eyestrain I'd totally be using a CRT right now.

[microsoft windows]

I've changed my mind, the section is only for keyboards.
I will keep my "For once I agree with MS Windows" card for another time.

That section is actually specifically for reviewing IBM monitors.

[EverythingIBM]

If you want to see how bad LCDs get I have an old Panasonic TN from 1999. Huge gamma shifts, it has those light hoirzontal bands when you have dark stuff being displayed, and has next to no viewing angle. My FE700+ CRT absolutely blows it away IQ wise. It even gets less glare than most matte screen LCDs under normal conditions. If it weren't for the fact that I get loads of eyestrain I'd totally be using a CRT right now.

Ironically, I never experienced many weird issues with LCDs like gama shifting -- I have witnessed the horizontal banding -- it's especially common with dithered pixels.
I don't get eyestrain from CRTs -- I do get eyestrain from LCDs and burned images in my eyes for awhile. Technically, a fluorescent backlight should hurt your eyes more than a good 'ole CRT. But everyone's eyes are different!

You really have no idea kiddo. WTF has a hard drive got to do with your blanket assertion that modern CRT monitors are ****?

I can assure you they are not, I compared them back to back with several Trinitron tubes, and there was significant difference in favour of the Lacie's. If there had been little or no difference, I would have saved ~£1000 and bought a new engine I needed for the Trike. Pull your head out of your arse, not all modern or non-IBM stuff is crap, and shouting louder when you are called on it won't make any difference. The G70 get's **** on from a great height when compared to high-end monitors.

The hard drive thing was merely a footnote and didn't consist of my whole argument. I said the IBM ones were indeed heavier 'cause they are. Ones that have no problems, such as my G70, are indeed very high quality. There are no moire problems, the colour is perfect, it has a nice interface, is flicker-free, and has a nice quiet tube.
Of course not all non-IBM stuff is crap, but the fact you paid so much (partly for a brand name, and partly as a specialty item) makes it really irrelevant wit the G70 is just as good, or maybe even better. When your lacie CRT(s) have a bad picture, my old ones will still have perfect colour and contrast. And the fact that I got it for free is a bonus. I've got so much of my computer stuff for free! I never would have thought...

[D-EJ915]

Most people's eyes don't hurt because of the CRT design itself but because of the low refresh rates they use.

[EverythingIBM]

Most people's eyes don't hurt because of the CRT design itself but because of the low refresh rates they use.

Need anti-flicker then.

[InSanCen]

Of course not all non-IBM stuff is crap, but the fact you paid so much (partly for a brand name, and partly as a specialty item) makes it really irrelevant wit the G70 is just as good, or maybe even better.

You're still not getting it. After looking around, the G70 is average. no more, No less. It's not a Bad monitor, but it's not something Graphic Design and Image Editing people will buy. The Lacie's were. Do you really think that a Design house would spend $1500 on a single monitor if they could get away with £200 for something? At the end of the day, they are a business, in it to make money.

Mine came from a design house with nearly 50 of these monitors, and the chap in charge of purchasing is not a fool. He's not brand orientated, but is performance orientated. These were the sharpest, most accurate monitors around, and so bought them.

The G70 is NOT "just as good, or maybe even better", not by any stretch of your imagination. It's comparing a stock Supra to a Porsche GT3! To hell with the brand name, performance is everything.

[ch_123]

but the fact you paid so much (partly for a brand name

And here children, is where the pot called the kettle black.

[microsoft windows]

lol

[EverythingIBM]

And here children, is where the pot called the kettle black.

I never paid a pretty penny for any of my IBMs is the point I was trying to make. I either got good deals or obtained it for free. People neglect a lot of this good stuff! So you can find good gems in the mud if you look. I wouldn't pay $$$$ for some sony or lacie CRTs. Unless they would last forever like all older CRTs.

Ironically, IBM hasn't gotten much money from me lol. And the fact that they build their computers so solid removes the need to buy another one ever again (don't bring up my intellistations, that's a different situation).

[unicomp]

removes the need to buy another one ever again

Interesting proposal.

[D-EJ915]

Your CRTs will get worse over time dude, you just don't notice it because you never used your stuff when it was new and it's a gradual process.

[EverythingIBM]

Your CRTs will get worse over time dude, you just don't notice it because you never used your stuff when it was new and it's a gradual process.

I've used some pretty old CRTs... if they're made well, they can last pretty much forever. They only degrade if abused.
I only had a new CRT once, and it already had dead pixels & moire problems right out of the box (it also would shift with light/dark colours like all crappy CRTs I've used). So, a lot of them are manufactured that way.

And the G70 is far from new, being 14 years old with perfect colour/picture is good enough for me. I love the flicker-free technology.

[microsoft windows]

Your CRTs will get worse over time dude, you just don't notice it because you never used your stuff when it was new and it's a gradual process.

Guess what? Your fancy LCD will degrade much faster.

[EverythingIBM]

Guess what? Your fancy LCD will degrade much faster.

Good CRTs will probably outlive most people! Seriously. They only degrade if manufactured in a poor way, kind of like capacitors.

LCDs, while probably able to last a long time (I've seen some ancient beige IBM LCDs at cashier tills), get faulty backlights. Fluorescent bulbs hurt my eyes...

Time to go play heroes 1, test some EDO RAM, do some math, and write up a resume w/ portfolio... my oh my what a busy schedule.

You know math is getting to your head when you do calculations revolving around 256 for fun on the bus.

[EverythingIBM]

Protip: resumes which appear to have been printed on a dot matrix printer will likely be discarded immediately.

If I had a dot matrix printer, I would totally do that.

[microsoft windows]

You should write your resumes backwards.