Author Topic: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?  (Read 1921 times)

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Offline Senor_Cartmenez

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Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« on: Sat, 07 November 2020, 08:04:31 »
Howdy folks,

I'm sort of an old ass member round these parts, haven't logged in in nearly a decade though, much has changed. Back then Mechanical Keyboards as a whole were still very niche. I remember us trying to get Deck to produce the Deck Legend for Germany and make it available again or sell us their double shot keycaps and stuff. Me getting a custom made switch-testing-board sent to Germany from a US member and me forwarding it to the next guy so forum members could test out different switch types. Good times.
Back then I somehow ended up with one of the last produced DAS Keyboards with media keys, was very lucky, still have and use it, never really needed another KB (do own a Deck 82 with MX Blacks though), it is awesome.

So what is all this about you ask?
Well, my DAS is using MX Blues and thus loud as **** (the MX Blacks from my Deck are better but it is US layout and I am a big advocator of the German DE layout. Kind of like metric vs imperial for me ;) ). Since my new desktop will sit in my bedroom and I don't want to disturb the wife n kids, I mainly need a silent alternative.

Around 10 years ago when I was last active here, the only 3 Keyboards I ultimately considered were the DAS, Deck and Topre.
I distinctly remember that Topre was the outlier and since they were one of the few "switch" types I could never test out (and the high price...), I decided against them.
Read up on it again a bit and I remembered correctly, Topre seems to be known for being very silent.
Regarding the stroke feel etc. I think I'm willing to give em a try now since I do enjoy the MX Blues over the other switches I have tried (maybe safe for the IBM spring), yet I have also had a thing for a good, fresh out of the box Rubber Dome... But mostly not... But sometimes yes... guess you know what I mean ...

But the price and where to buy from and which model?

Here's the TLDR list:

- Seeking SILENT keyboard for bedroom activities (top priority), currently leaning towards Topre
- Full Keyboard preferred , Backlit preferred, Tenkeyless ok
- German DE layout highly preferred, UK/US layout ok actually not ok... but would probably consider when price difference is massive..
- Vendor that sells both the board and keycaps preferred


If it's a Topre halp me find a good vendor plz.
If there have been better/more economical products over the last ten years that fit the bill, plz forgive my ignorance and share with me your knowledge :)

Help us Geekhack forums, you are our only hope

/Edit
upon further investigation due to all y'all's silence, I believe to now understand that Topre and German DE Layout are not existing combinations. Can anyone confirm?

If that is indeed the case, anyone know a silent alternative? :)

/Edit 2
Is DIY an option? If someone can help me source the parts and gimme a youtube video, I should be able to manage

/Edit 3
Alrighty then, did some more digging and it looks like the keyboard co has Topre in German Layout. So I guess I just order it from them.
« Last Edit: Sun, 08 November 2020, 06:17:06 by Senor_Cartmenez »

Offline rxc92

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 08 November 2020, 08:43:13 »
A success in three edits?

Offline derpdederp

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 08 November 2020, 09:32:03 »
If silent cherry blacks aren't more silent than the Topre, then I'd like to know.

Offline 1391406

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 08 November 2020, 10:13:58 »
I have a Topre Realforce 104U Silent, and while it was indeed the quietest switch I'd ever tried several years ago, some of the more current switches are just as, if not more, quiet. For example, I recently bought some Kailh Silent Box Reds(ie. Pinks) and to my ears, they're quieter.
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Offline Polymer

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 08 November 2020, 10:55:51 »
If silent cherry blacks aren't more silent than the Topre, then I'd like to know.

They're not...

Offline Senor_Cartmenez

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 08 November 2020, 11:46:14 »
Howdy folks,

after sitting in front of the Topre option through keyboard co, I did some more reading and heard similar claims and seen some videos on youtube where apparently cherry mx silent (red or black) for example are considered even more quiet than the Topre due to the noise Topre makes when returning to the resting position after a keystroke.

So I am currently also looking into a Ducky with MX Silent Reds... Would be more affordable and through a local vendor makes returns if necessary much easier...

Also cherry MX makes the keycap hunt later on a lot more feasible ;)

I also considered some of the Leopold options for Topre along with HHKB and a Novatouch but suitable options are either unavailable or never made in German Layout...

So I am actually leaning towards a Ducky with MX SIlent Reds right now...

Thoughts? :D

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 08 November 2020, 11:56:55 »
MX has made strides in silent switches recently. Silent linears like those offered by Zeal PC, or Durock [e.g. Silent Alpacas] can be made very good. And the really custom frankenswitches like MX Zilents or modded OUTEMU Silent Linears are among the quietest things out there.

You can get a very quiet MX board. You'll need a custom board, ideally. With custom switches, like the aforementioned linears, or the new Boba [the quietest, best silent tactile housing.] You'll have to lube at least the springs, and probably parts of the switch itself. If you do this, you can beat any factory Topre keyboard hands down.

Here's one example:

t=2s

You can silence a KBD75, KBD8X MKii, Tofu, etc... Just be sure to use proper lube and dampening. Light years better than anything you can buy from the factory.

Factory silenced Topre is ... okay. Custom MX beats it. But user-silenced, lubed Topre is in a class of its own. I don't know much about how to do it, but I've typed on it, and it is extremely worthwhile.

This is a golden age for silent MX switches, held back by the scarcity of kits and dampening materials.

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 08 November 2020, 12:01:13 »
Come on. This is the way.


Offline Senor_Cartmenez

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 08 November 2020, 14:29:08 »
wow thats quiet :D

Well I'm all down for building my own board, like I said.
Even though it'll probably cost more and time etc. etc.  but thats all ok for me, if its worth it ;)

My problem with custom build would be the German Layout again.
I know if I custom build I can also get me a german layout but from what I understand, next to a casing for the KB with a rubber mat/dampener on the bottom, I would need a PCB board (hope that is indeed the right term) - and both would have to fit the german layout, right?

That would be step 1 of a probably annoyingly difficult search for parts. Next the keycaps....

The good thing is that I can order from the US with a lot less hassle than others. The bad thing is the main stuff I need (German layout suitable PCB, case, caps) is likely not available there anyway. And over here, I have had a look at the market and while there are way more KBs available than back in the day, I haven't seen a single dedicated keyboard vendor in the Germany area.

So where to find a German layout parts?

/Edit
Looks like I will pull the trigger on a Ducky Shine 7 with MX Silent Reds.
Hope the MX Silent Reds are as quiet or close to (or even more) than the Topre would've been.
But it is a full sized Keyboard, most importantly german layout, backlit to boot, double shot keycaps to boot, should be good ...
Will cost me a clean 200 metric bucks though.
« Last Edit: Sun, 08 November 2020, 15:23:14 by Senor_Cartmenez »

Offline 1391406

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 08 November 2020, 19:28:57 »
Hope the MX Silent Reds are as quiet or close to (or even more) than the Topre would've been.

Before I installed the Kailh Box Silent Pinks in my current keyboard, I was using MX Silent Reds, and they're at least as quiet as my Realforce 104US.
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Offline rxc92

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 09 November 2020, 00:52:18 »
For what it's worth, the new Realforce keyboards, called R2, have better silencing than the original series. Perhaps due to case design or material, but I find my silenced R2 noticeably quieter than a silenced old Realforce. 
Unfortunately for you, they didn't make any ISO models as far as I'm aware, only JIS and ANSI. :(

Offline Senor_Cartmenez

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 09 November 2020, 02:30:40 »
Thanks for the feedback guys.

Yeah the ISO layout is the real bottleneck in all this.
Takes me back to 10 years ago. Took a minute for me to realize that little has changed in that regard over the past 10 years.
Was exactly the same back then, if I can't live with anything but the ISO layout for German, then I am severely limited in my choices.

Topre, as you said, only found the old realforce through KeyboardCo in ISO layout, literally not one other option. And I am pretty sure that was a custom order from Topre through Keyboardco as they believed there is enough interest in the market to warrant it. But that order was (according to this forum) made in 2017 and they are still sitting on "a lot" of stock, according to their website. Makes sense that nobody else was willing to order a bunch of ISO layout keyboards from Topre or others again, as KeyboardCo has been sitting on those for 3 years now and one of the few people who would take one, me, just decided against it again. It is what it is ...

The Ducky is just much more widely available in ISO layout so I'll give it a try.
Thx also for confirming the silent reds are similarly if not more quiet than the Topre switches.

Will let you guys know once I got it here. Should be this week still.

Offline yui

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 09 November 2020, 02:47:44 »
wow thats quiet :D

Well I'm all down for building my own board, like I said.
Even though it'll probably cost more and time etc. etc.  but thats all ok for me, if its worth it ;)

My problem with custom build would be the German Layout again.
I know if I custom build I can also get me a german layout but from what I understand, next to a casing for the KB with a rubber mat/dampener on the bottom, I would need a PCB board (hope that is indeed the right term) - and both would have to fit the german layout, right?

That would be step 1 of a probably annoyingly difficult search for parts. Next the keycaps....

The good thing is that I can order from the US with a lot less hassle than others. The bad thing is the main stuff I need (German layout suitable PCB, case, caps) is likely not available there anyway. And over here, I have had a look at the market and while there are way more KBs available than back in the day, I haven't seen a single dedicated keyboard vendor in the Germany area.

So where to find a German layout parts?
there are 3 parts that will determine the layout, for german you will need an ISO plate and PCB (the B is for Board :)) (like all european layouts) and german keycaps.
as typical a good start for a full size iso is the GMMK, but it is hardly custom. and is far from the best when it comes to noise.
/Edit
Looks like I will pull the trigger on a Ducky Shine 7 with MX Silent Reds.
Hope the MX Silent Reds are as quiet or close to (or even more) than the Topre would've been.
But it is a full sized Keyboard, most importantly german layout, backlit to boot, double shot keycaps to boot, should be good ...
Will cost me a clean 200 metric bucks though.
likely the easiest and cheapest option
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Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 09 November 2020, 10:34:58 »
Yeah, the Ducky Shine 7 with Silent Reds will work. "Easiest and Cheapest" as said. It's just that the stabilizers will be mediocre [not bad].

And it won't be as quiet as a custom can be made. But you'll save a lot of hassle.

Offline Senor_Cartmenez

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 09 November 2020, 11:00:56 »
Thanks again guys.

It feels good to know that geekhack is still the source for everything keyboard.
10 years ago things were looking a bit bleak on the board, very few active users etc. but I already saw that it became very well frequented and active in recent years.

This thread has reaffirmed my believe that quality of knowledge and board members in terms of helpfulness etc. has in no way gone down either.

It is a rare thing these days that you find THE adress for something online and even rarer that it remains so over a 10 year span.

Kudoes to Geekhack, stay awesome y'all

/Edit
Is ripster still an active member? That guy was keeping the board together by himself back in the days xD
« Last Edit: Mon, 09 November 2020, 11:26:29 by Senor_Cartmenez »

Offline Entropia

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 09 November 2020, 11:59:13 »
I would suggest a linear switch. With that you can really type very silenty (even more than with a membrane board) if you are careful and don't bottom out. For that reason, I would recommend you MX Blacks, rather than reds. Topre forces you to bottom out. Although the sound of Topre when you bottom out is low pitch and muted (apart from pleasant), when you release your keys (upstroke) there happen a sound with a higher pitch that can be a little more noticiable. I would not say, however, that a keyboard with Topres is a loud keyboard. I'm telling your just from my experience using two boards with the same design but different switches: Leopold FC980M and Leopold FC980C. Trust me, I'm able to write quite fast with my FC980M with blacks and be almost silent. With other boards your mileage my vary. And if you feel like making some noise with some enthusiast typing stile bottoming out, then you will be surprised how well it sounds (I think the 1,5 mm thick keycaps are to blame), together with the fact that the switches installed by Leopold are butter smooth (at least in the 2 units I have). Also, no ping at all, neither in this model with blacks nor in the one with Topres (Leopold uses a kind of absorbing pad inside their boards).
« Last Edit: Mon, 09 November 2020, 14:23:18 by Entropia »

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 09 November 2020, 14:12:32 »
Leopold linear keyboards are probably the best stock experience you can get.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 10 November 2020, 15:01:16 »
Leopold linear keyboards are probably the best stock experience you can get.

Agreed

Offline Willtato

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 10 November 2020, 15:28:14 »
With quietness, it's just not the volume, but the frequencies produced.

When I had vortex core (stock) with cherry pinks, although they were up to 10db quieter than my HHKB type s, however you get much more rumble and also much higher end sounds.  The topre mainly produces only low end of the mid range frequencies. 

I'd go for the louder topre any day.

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Offline diazel

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 10 November 2020, 19:11:40 »
GK64 hotswap board then find some lubed silent alpacas on r/mechmarket and you'll be golden. I don't have a Topre S to compare to anymore but it's definitely quieter than my Niz silenced clones.

Offline 1391406

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 12 November 2020, 00:14:45 »
With quietness, it's just not the volume, but the frequencies produced.

When I had vortex core (stock) with cherry pinks, although they were up to 10db quieter than my HHKB type s, however you get much more rumble and also much higher end sounds.  The topre mainly produces only low end of the mid range frequencies. 

I'd go for the louder topre any day.

Human hearing is most sensitive to frequencies in the mid-range(eg. 1 kHz - 5 kHz). My Topre Realforce 104U Silent is approximately 7 dB louder in the mid-range than the Cherry MX Silent Reds I was using. As such, the Topre isn't just empirically louder, it's also perceptibly louder.
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Offline yui

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 12 November 2020, 01:38:33 »
now that i have GMK caps on my silent board (doddle60 with gat silent red and CF plate) it is much more silent again the loudest noises being the everglide stabs bottom out and the switch scratchy travel, much more silent than any rubber dome i tried or heard so far, and i do not even have a case for it yet, need to get a new lead screw for my cnc3018 1st.
i am guessing that with lube and better stab it could maybe not even be heard above the AC fan noise.
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Offline Polymer

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 12 November 2020, 10:17:58 »
With quietness, it's just not the volume, but the frequencies produced.

When I had vortex core (stock) with cherry pinks, although they were up to 10db quieter than my HHKB type s, however you get much more rumble and also much higher end sounds.  The topre mainly produces only low end of the mid range frequencies. 

I'd go for the louder topre any day.

Human hearing is most sensitive to frequencies in the mid-range(eg. 1 kHz - 5 kHz). My Topre Realforce 104U Silent is approximately 7 dB louder in the mid-range than the Cherry MX Silent Reds I was using. As such, the Topre isn't just empirically louder, it's also perceptibly louder.

My R2 silent is quieter than my MX silent...on average by about 2-3dB and peak at about 4dB..this is measuring normal typing.  Does your RF104 Spacebar clank?  If so that's where a difference lies....

Offline 1391406

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 12 November 2020, 14:16:32 »
With quietness, it's just not the volume, but the frequencies produced.

When I had vortex core (stock) with cherry pinks, although they were up to 10db quieter than my HHKB type s, however you get much more rumble and also much higher end sounds.  The topre mainly produces only low end of the mid range frequencies. 

I'd go for the louder topre any day.

Human hearing is most sensitive to frequencies in the mid-range(eg. 1 kHz - 5 kHz). My Topre Realforce 104U Silent is approximately 7 dB louder in the mid-range than the Cherry MX Silent Reds I was using. As such, the Topre isn't just empirically louder, it's also perceptibly louder.

My R2 silent is quieter than my MX silent...on average by about 2-3dB and peak at about 4dB..this is measuring normal typing.  Does your RF104 Spacebar clank?  If so that's where a difference lies....

The ABS spacebar that's installed isn't any noisier than the other keys. The PBT spacebar, on the other hand, sounds like plastic on plastic when it's depressed, which is why I don't use it. I've never used the R2, and other than sound samples I've heard on YouTube, I have no basis for comparison. Based on the R2 samples I've heard, it sounds quieter than the original RF, though.
« Last Edit: Thu, 12 November 2020, 14:18:07 by 1391406 »
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Offline Polymer

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 12 November 2020, 16:52:08 »
The PBT spacebar gets rid of the clanking that eventually comes w/ the ABS spacebar..at least on several (3) different Topre boards I had in the past..same issue (same issue everyone has).  It could just be the gen1 PBT Topre spacebars were so warped that having to warp them to get them to fit right created tension that fixes the clanking..I don't know.

Either way, taking that clanking out of the equation, I don't see how silent Topre is louder than MX Silent..not from what I hear..not what a meter says either....

Offline Riverman

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 12 November 2020, 17:24:38 »
I actually have both a silenced Topre keyboard (RGB with Silence-X rings) and a Cherry G80-3494 with silent MX black switches at my desk at work right now.  The Topre is a little quieter, and has a deeper sound to it.  Neither one is anywhere near as loud, or high-pitched, as the typical Dell rubber dome keyboard that's common around my office.

Offline 1391406

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 14 November 2020, 01:44:42 »
The PBT spacebar gets rid of the clanking that eventually comes w/ the ABS spacebar..at least on several (3) different Topre boards I had in the past..same issue (same issue everyone has).  It could just be the gen1 PBT Topre spacebars were so warped that having to warp them to get them to fit right created tension that fixes the clanking..I don't know.

I purchased 4 PBT spacebars from Massdrop before they changed their name and had the same issue with each and every one of them on both of my Topre boards(104US and 87U), which is why I packed them away and don't use them.

Either way, taking that clanking out of the equation, I don't see how silent Topre is louder than MX Silent..not from what I hear..not what a meter says either....

Both of my Topre boards are sonically consistent from one key to the next. I assure you there's no 'clanking'. My assessment is based on audio samples I recorded and compared using a spectrum analyzer in Reaper.
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Offline absyrd

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 14 November 2020, 03:27:08 »
The limited edition Realforce r2 is TOO silent for me, and I didn't even install the landing pads supplied. Back to 55g and a thock I went.
My wife I a also push her button . But now she have her button push by a different men. So I buy a keyboard a mechanicale, she a reliable like a Fiat.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 14 November 2020, 11:58:53 »
I purchased 4 PBT spacebars from Massdrop before they changed their name and had the same issue with each and every one of them on both of my Topre boards(104US and 87U), which is why I packed them away and don't use them.
They're easy to straighten...but they work fantastic after you "fix" them...it was a known issue but back then this was really the only option...

Both of my Topre boards are sonically consistent from one key to the next. I assure you there's no 'clanking'. My assessment is based on audio samples I recorded and compared using a spectrum analyzer in Reaper.
[/quote]
So your larger keys (return, backspace, etc) are sonically consistent w/ the alphas?  Finding that difficult to believe. 

Offline 1391406

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 14 November 2020, 13:01:15 »
I purchased 4 PBT spacebars from Massdrop before they changed their name and had the same issue with each and every one of them on both of my Topre boards(104US and 87U), which is why I packed them away and don't use them.
They're easy to straighten...but they work fantastic after you "fix" them...it was a known issue but back then this was really the only option...

I've seen videos, but I haven't done it myself. I was simply making the point that the spacebar I'm currently using isn't an issue.

Both of my Topre boards are sonically consistent from one key to the next. I assure you there's no 'clanking'. My assessment is based on audio samples I recorded and compared using a spectrum analyzer in Reaper.
So your larger keys (return, backspace, etc) are sonically consistent w/ the alphas?  Finding that difficult to believe. 

Consistent shouldn't be conflated with sounding identical. Sonically, the levels are fairly consistent.
« Last Edit: Sat, 14 November 2020, 16:26:52 by 1391406 »
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Offline Polymer

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 14 November 2020, 17:50:19 »
I purchased 4 PBT spacebars from Massdrop before they changed their name and had the same issue with each and every one of them on both of my Topre boards(104US and 87U), which is why I packed them away and don't use them.
They're easy to straighten...but they work fantastic after you "fix" them...it was a known issue but back then this was really the only option...

I've seen videos, but I haven't done it myself. I was simply making the point that the spacebar I'm currently using isn't an issue.

Both of my Topre boards are sonically consistent from one key to the next. I assure you there's no 'clanking'. My assessment is based on audio samples I recorded and compared using a spectrum analyzer in Reaper.
So your larger keys (return, backspace, etc) are sonically consistent w/ the alphas?  Finding that difficult to believe. 

Consistent shouldn't be conflated with sounding identical. Sonically, the levels are fairly consistent.

Which part is the same?  Because dB wise they're different..frequency wise they're different...this is across 4 different Topre boards.  You mentioned you used a spectrum analyzer so I'm assuming there is some level of analysis on frequency..but we know that is different...so which part did you find sonically consistent with Reaver?

Offline 1391406

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #31 on: Sat, 14 November 2020, 19:16:51 »
Consistent shouldn't be conflated with sounding identical. Sonically, the levels are fairly consistent.

Which part is the same?  Because dB wise they're different..frequency wise they're different...

Frequency wise, yes, they're different. However, dB wise, no, they're not that different. I recorded a sample. In the first 5 seconds of this clip, you'll hear one of the alphanumeric keys. The next 5 seconds is the spacebar.

* Keyboard_Clip.mp3 (439.79 kB - downloaded 6 times.)

The spacebar has more energy between 230 Hz and 550 Hz, but the levels (dB) are similar.

You mentioned you used a spectrum analyzer so I'm assuming there is some level of analysis on frequency..but we know that is different...so which part did you find sonically consistent with Reaver?

Reaper. See above.

« Last Edit: Sat, 14 November 2020, 19:54:09 by 1391406 »
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Offline Polymer

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 14 November 2020, 19:56:04 »
Consistent shouldn't be conflated with sounding identical. Sonically, the levels are fairly consistent.

Which part is the same?  Because dB wise they're different..frequency wise they're different...

Frequency wise, yes, they're different. However, dB wise, no, they're not that different. I recorded a sample. In the first 5 seconds of this clip, you'll hear one of the alphanumeric keys. The next 5 seconds is the spacebar.

(Attachment Link)

The spacebar has more energy between 230 Hz and 550 Hz, but the levels (dB) are similar.

You mentioned you used a spectrum analyzer so I'm assuming there is some level of analysis on frequency..but we know that is different...so which part did you find sonically consistent with Reaver?

Reaper. See above.

I just measured them..on 4 different topres...Return/Backspace are louder dB wise than alphas.  That matches what I hear. Now granted, I'm not using the most sophisticated of equipment but hard to believe what you're saying is true when every measurement I see in front of me says it is not. 

Offline 1391406

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #33 on: Sat, 14 November 2020, 20:05:00 »
I just measured them..on 4 different topres...Return/Backspace are louder dB wise than alphas.  That matches what I hear. Now granted, I'm not using the most sophisticated of equipment but hard to believe what you're saying is true when every measurement I see in front of me says it is not. 

I can't speak to the differences in level among your Topre boards. The sample I posted in my previous reply is of my Realforce 104US. You're welcome to measure the difference between the alphanumeric and spacebar with an RMS meter. My stabilized keys have a little rattle, but nothing significant. My NIZ Plum x87 is more consistent in terms of both dB and frequency, though.
« Last Edit: Sat, 14 November 2020, 21:30:09 by 1391406 »
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Offline Polymer

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 15 November 2020, 00:19:18 »
I just measured them..on 4 different topres...Return/Backspace are louder dB wise than alphas.  That matches what I hear. Now granted, I'm not using the most sophisticated of equipment but hard to believe what you're saying is true when every measurement I see in front of me says it is not. 

I can't speak to the differences in level among your Topre boards. The sample I posted in my previous reply is of my Realforce 104US. You're welcome to measure the difference between the alphanumeric and spacebar with an RMS meter. My stabilized keys have a little rattle, but nothing significant. My NIZ Plum x87 is more consistent in terms of both dB and frequency, though.

Well I'm measuring across four different Topre that consist of 87Us, HHKBP2 and R2...I do agree with you though, I have a niz plum and the alphas vs bigger keys are closer than they are on Topre..

Offline 1391406

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #35 on: Sun, 15 November 2020, 00:27:27 »
Well I'm measuring across four different Topre that consist of 87Us, HHKBP2 and R2...I do agree with you though, I have a niz plum and the alphas vs bigger keys are closer than they are on Topre..

Like I said, I can't speak to the differences in level among your Topre boards, but I do have sound samples others are free to compare with an RMS meter.

« Last Edit: Sun, 15 November 2020, 00:29:31 by 1391406 »
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Offline Polymer

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 15 November 2020, 01:05:32 »
Well I'm measuring across four different Topre that consist of 87Us, HHKBP2 and R2...I do agree with you though, I have a niz plum and the alphas vs bigger keys are closer than they are on Topre..

Like I said, I can't speak to the differences in level among your Topre boards, but I do have sound samples others are free to compare with an RMS meter.

What I find odd is you're saying Niz is more consistent..which means your Topre is not...The difference between the alphas and larger keys is not huge..a few dB..but that's not what I would claim is consistent...

Offline 1391406

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #37 on: Sun, 15 November 2020, 01:25:01 »
Well I'm measuring across four different Topre that consist of 87Us, HHKBP2 and R2...I do agree with you though, I have a niz plum and the alphas vs bigger keys are closer than they are on Topre..

Like I said, I can't speak to the differences in level among your Topre boards, but I do have sound samples others are free to compare with an RMS meter.

What I find odd is you're saying Niz is more consistent..which means your Topre is not...The difference between the alphas and larger keys is not huge..a few dB..but that's not what I would claim is consistent...

Well, no. Consistent doesn't necessarily mean identical. In the sense that I'm using it, it's defined as tending to be arbitrarily close to the true value of a parameter estimated as the sample becomes large. The key word in that definition is close. To say that the NIZ is more consistent is to say it's closer. I also qualified my use of consistent in previous replies by stating that the levels are fairly consistent and similar. Having said that, depressing the same alphanumeric key repeatedly will not yield a perfectly consistent level from one key press to the next. In fact, the level can vary by as much as 5 dB or more. I defer to my audio sample.
« Last Edit: Sun, 15 November 2020, 03:04:40 by 1391406 »
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Offline Polymer

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #38 on: Sun, 15 November 2020, 20:21:03 »
Well, no. Consistent doesn't necessarily mean identical. In the sense that I'm using it, it's defined as tending to be arbitrarily close to the true value of a parameter estimated as the sample becomes large. The key word in that definition is close. To say that the NIZ is more consistent is to say it's closer. I also qualified my use of consistent in previous replies by stating that the levels are fairly consistent and similar. Having said that, depressing the same alphanumeric key repeatedly will not yield a perfectly consistent level from one key press to the next. In fact, the level can vary by as much as 5 dB or more. I defer to my audio sample.

I didn't say identical.

So your use of consistent essentially means nothing then...because the way you've defined it and without qualification, it can mean anything.  Do you realize that then?  Without qualifying exactly what you meant and then defining it as arbitrarily close to what you consider a true value, you've essentially said nothing by saying they're sonically consistent.  Since you do have the information, given you've done the analysis..it would be far more useful to explain what you mean by sonically consistent and the numbers you've seen and how you've arrived that at.  I think that would be quite interesting. 
« Last Edit: Sun, 15 November 2020, 20:32:10 by Polymer »

Offline diazel

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #39 on: Sun, 15 November 2020, 21:18:05 »
Hey polymer, can you send me links to those studies you told me about? I still want to read them

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


Offline 1391406

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #40 on: Sun, 15 November 2020, 23:08:44 »
Well, no. Consistent doesn't necessarily mean identical. In the sense that I'm using it, it's defined as tending to be arbitrarily close to the true value of a parameter estimated as the sample becomes large. The key word in that definition is close. To say that the NIZ is more consistent is to say it's closer. I also qualified my use of consistent in previous replies by stating that the levels are fairly consistent and similar. Having said that, depressing the same alphanumeric key repeatedly will not yield a perfectly consistent level from one key press to the next. In fact, the level can vary by as much as 5 dB or more. I defer to my audio sample.

I didn't say identical.

So your use of consistent essentially means nothing then...because the way you've defined it and without qualification, it can mean anything.  Do you realize that then?  Without qualifying exactly what you meant and then defining it as arbitrarily close to what you consider a true value, you've essentially said nothing by saying they're sonically consistent.  Since you do have the information, given you've done the analysis..it would be far more useful to explain what you mean by sonically consistent and the numbers you've seen and how you've arrived that at.  I think that would be quite interesting.

I specifically offered a sound sample of an alphanumeric to serve as the baseline (dB) value, and that value varies by as much as 5 to 10 dB, depending on the key press. The spacebar's recorded level is within that margin, hence I consider the level of the spacebar to be fairly consistent (in dB) with the alphanumeric keys.

Now, I originally compared the levels using an RMS meter; however, a better measurement spec is LUFS, which stands for Loudness Unit Full Scale. Whereas a peak meter will only measure the peaks of a signal and RMS correlates more closely to our hearing, LUFS, on the other hand, is a specification that's used to quantify perceived loudness by analyzing the average level over time. As such, I compared both samples using Waves WLM Meter, which is a loudness meter that uses the LUFS spec, and when measured over a longer averaging time, the perceived loudness was virtually the same for both samples.

Alphanumeric:
255954-0

Spacebar:
255960-1
« Last Edit: Mon, 16 November 2020, 00:21:36 by 1391406 »
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Offline Polymer

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 16 November 2020, 02:46:56 »
Hey polymer, can you send me links to those studies you told me about? I still want to read them

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk

Not going to look them up for you, you can do that yourself. 

Search here, search google. 

Offline Polymer

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 16 November 2020, 09:51:03 »
I specifically offered a sound sample of an alphanumeric to serve as the baseline (dB) value, and that value varies by as much as 5 to 10 dB, depending on the key press. The spacebar's recorded level is within that margin, hence I consider the level of the spacebar to be fairly consistent (in dB) with the alphanumeric keys.

Now, I originally compared the levels using an RMS meter; however, a better measurement spec is LUFS, which stands for Loudness Unit Full Scale. Whereas a peak meter will only measure the peaks of a signal and RMS correlates more closely to our hearing, LUFS, on the other hand, is a specification that's used to quantify perceived loudness by analyzing the average level over time. As such, I compared both samples using Waves WLM Meter, which is a loudness meter that uses the LUFS spec, and when measured over a longer averaging time, the perceived loudness was virtually the same for both samples.


And with Niz it was what?

Offline directheatedtriode

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 16 November 2020, 10:14:04 »
I've got a Realforce R2 purple slider silenced stock, it's not silent, there is a "raindrop thock" when typing.

HHKB2 Type S is a bit quieter but has a similar raindrop thock.

Offline 1391406

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #44 on: Mon, 16 November 2020, 11:53:13 »
I specifically offered a sound sample of an alphanumeric to serve as the baseline (dB) value, and that value varies by as much as 5 to 10 dB, depending on the key press. The spacebar's recorded level is within that margin, hence I consider the level of the spacebar to be fairly consistent (in dB) with the alphanumeric keys.

Now, I originally compared the levels using an RMS meter; however, a better measurement spec is LUFS, which stands for Loudness Unit Full Scale. Whereas a peak meter will only measure the peaks of a signal and RMS correlates more closely to our hearing, LUFS, on the other hand, is a specification that's used to quantify perceived loudness by analyzing the average level over time. As such, I compared both samples using Waves WLM Meter, which is a loudness meter that uses the LUFS spec, and when measured over a longer averaging time, the perceived loudness was virtually the same for both samples.


And with Niz it was what?

In terms of measurements, I have no idea because I haven't checked it. It sounds closer with regard to frequency to my ears, but whether it actually is, I don't know.
« Last Edit: Mon, 16 November 2020, 12:07:43 by 1391406 »
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Offline Senor_Cartmenez

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #45 on: Tue, 17 November 2020, 07:01:48 »
Howdy folks,

didn't read everything, just saw a good discussion is happening and wanted to give my feedback on the Ducky Shine 7 vis a vis quiet/silent:

The Ducky Shine 7 with MX silent reds is good enough for me in terms of silent. I am satisfied. The board overall is pretty awesome as well.
But far from perfect...

One of the things I saw in reviews beforehand and can confirm is that the LED indicators for numpad etc. burns with the fury of a thousand suns and simply blinds you if you look directly at it. And it can't be dimmed apparently, at least I didn't find a way to do so.
I also heard that Razer Synapse/Chroma works with the Ducky but I haven't gotten it to work so far, so another bummer. Will try with the Ducky software and take it from there...

The last thing I want to critique the Ducky for at this point is the keycaps... Overall it looks amazing and very high quality etc. but particularly the ISO layout keys are not the same quality as the rest. Some of the lettering is not as clear cut and a few keys the illumination is only partial, again, I believe due to the keycap quality.

Oh well, I can't say it is a great keyboard but it is "good enough" for my purposes and I am overall quite happy with it. Especially the weight and overall build quality seems awesome. But a few drawbacks nonetheless...

Offline Riverman

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Re: Silent Keyboard needed - Topre? Buying guide/help pls?
« Reply #46 on: Tue, 17 November 2020, 12:57:51 »
Do you have a full-size or a TKL Shine 7?  I had a Ducky One 2 for a while, and really liked it, but I thought the opposite about the lock lights.  I could barely see them since they're buried in between the numeric keypad and the media keys.  I've yet to try a plate-mounted silent red keyboard, but I'd like to.  I like silent blacks in a PCB-mount keyboard, but they felt too stiff in a plate-mount keyboard.  Plate-mounted reds might be a decent compromise, but I'm still afraid they'd be a little soft for my liking.