Author Topic: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL  (Read 9034 times)

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Offline hashbrown565

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[IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« on: Thu, 12 August 2021, 20:05:37 »




IC Form

What Makes This Different?


I've been in the hobby for about a year and a half now, and I've never once seen a wooden, hobby-grade board that isn't either handmade or bought from some unnamed company in Asia through AliExpress, despite wood's excellent sound characteristics being well known amongst hobby members.
I sought to change that, but not just by offering people a keyboard made of wood, but by offering
total sound customizability.
For those unaware, different woods all have their own unique acoustic characteristic, a characteristic that is used to great effect by musical instruments. So, why stop at one sound?



When purchasing Fiodha, everyone will be given the choice of which wood they would like to be used for the top piece and the much larger bottom piece.
This allows a level of sonic customizability that the hobby has never had easy access to.
Each wood option will be accompanied by a brief description detailing its acoustic characteristics. Or, you could ignore that altogether and just get what you think looks prettiest!


Here are just a few of the potential wood combinations:


Top: Maple
Bottom: Mahogany



Top: Walnut
Bottom: Alder



Top: Richlite
Bottom: Ash


Thanks to Kingk22 for all the renders!

Construction:

Mounting Method: Top Mount
Plate Material: Sandblasted Brass
Winkeyless Option: Of course
Typing Angle: 6 Degrees
Layout Compatibility: ANSI, ISO UK, Split Backspace, Split Shift, Stepped Caps-Lock, 6U Spacebar, 6.25U Spacebar, 7U Spacebar/Tsangan
Firmware: QMK and VIA Compatible
USB Cutout Location: Right
Wood Finish: Pre-Catalyzed (Similar to Nitrocellulose) Lacquer, Matte


Vendors:

- TBA


To-Do:

- Prototype PCB
- Prototype Case
- Decide on screws manufacturer
- Decide on rubber feet manufacturer
- Decide on wood supplier
- Decide on case manufacturer
- Decide on plate manufacturer
- Determine US order fulfillment process
- Determine International Vendors/order fulfillment process
- Gather Suggestions
- Change design of plate and USB port to accommodate h87c/h88c PCB
- Implement F13 compatibility
- Contact Hineybush about bundling the PCB and keyboard together in the shipment
- Contact Stupidfish about developing foam designs for the board
- Get Final Assembly Renders
- Determine Pricing
- Set Group Buy Date


Changelog/Updates:

- IC Launched
- Suggestions gathered
- After hearing from the community and asking a fellow designer, decided it would be best to use the hineybush PCB instead of selling my own, makes the end product much cheaper for everyone
- Finished previous semester of college, finally have the time/energy to work on the board
- Changed the design of the bottom in a way that allows me to use 3-axis CNC milling rather than 4-axis, making the board cheaper to produce as well as more visually distinct
- Implemented alternate top and plate design that has F13
- Altered design to be compatible with hineybush h87c and h88c
- IC launched on Reddit




« Last Edit: Fri, 21 January 2022, 13:43:47 by hashbrown565 »

Offline MIGHTY CHICKEN

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 12 August 2021, 20:07:10 »
I see wood I nut

Offline chat and team

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 12 August 2021, 20:08:56 »
meh
geekhack mods constantly break tos and refuse to read
Chinese overlords won

Offline dandruff

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 12 August 2021, 20:10:23 »
huge wood fan, I see that you crossed out prototype case, are there pictures/videos of that?
Definitely interested, it'll depend on a few things, but good luck!

Offline hashbrown565

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 12 August 2021, 20:17:12 »
I see that you crossed out prototype case, are there pictures/videos of that?
Yes, but I emitted them due to the fact that the materials the prototype is made of were selected for cost-effectiveness, not aesthetic quality. Here's a pic of the prototype.


Offline hali

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 12 August 2021, 20:18:22 »
good stuff

Offline mvkb

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 12 August 2021, 20:41:07 »
Would love to hear some typing tests. GLWIC!

Offline jabe8i

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 12 August 2021, 20:53:44 »
Is brass the only plate material option? Also unlimited gb??

Would also I would love a sound test.

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 12 August 2021, 20:59:16 »
Assumed that this hadn’t been done because of the difficulty with wood movement.  Is there some secret to not having the wood shrink, grow, or warp until unusable?   I have many tray mount wood cases.  Some get fairly tight on the pcb in the winter.  Some wobble slightly after years of drying.  Two I had to stop using because they shrank so much I can no longer fit a PCB in them.

Offline darthcapn

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 12 August 2021, 20:59:25 »
This gave me a wood. Count me in!

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Offline hashbrown565

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 12 August 2021, 21:02:57 »
Is brass the only plate material option? Also unlimited gb??

Yes, brass is the only plate option. Brass is much more capable of transferring acoustics between the different parts of the board than any other material, so for the sake of maximizing potential sound characteristics, I opted to have brass be the only plate option.

In regards to unlimited gb, I don't know yet, though an unlimited gb is what I am aiming for.

Offline hashbrown565

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 12 August 2021, 21:09:54 »
Assumed that this hadn’t been done because of the difficulty with wood movement.  Is there some secret to not having the wood shrink, grow, or warp until unusable?   I have many tray mount wood cases.  Some get fairly tight on the pcb in the winter.  Some wobble slightly after years of drying.  Two I had to stop using because they shrank so much I can no longer fit a PCB in them.

Consistent sizing in such small margins of error (such as in the construction of guitars, something I have experience in) is mainly accomplished through only choosing wood that has a specific maximum amount of moisture in it. I will be personally ensuring my wood supplier's moisture levels of wood is consistent with the levels necessary for stability. Otherwise, I have also ensured that the design allows a large amount of extra space for the PCB, both to compensate for manufacturing constraints and the inherent characteristics of wood.

Offline joshuarubin

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 12 August 2021, 21:30:49 »
Are you able to provide a target price or some sort of range? Are we talking a $200 kit? $500? $700?
Also, while I appreciate your consideration for sound in plate material choice, I wonder if you would reconsider other materials. I really dislike the stiffness of brass plates, too the degree that it would probably be a deal breaker for me. If you want to stick with brass, and I respect your artistic discretion, maybe you could commit to releasing the plate files after the GB concludes?
This looks like a really interesting project! Good luck!!!

Offline beigeandbrown

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 12 August 2021, 23:57:44 »
Assumed that this hadn’t been done because of the difficulty with wood movement.  Is there some secret to not having the wood shrink, grow, or warp until unusable?   I have many tray mount wood cases.  Some get fairly tight on the pcb in the winter.  Some wobble slightly after years of drying.  Two I had to stop using because they shrank so much I can no longer fit a PCB in them.

Consistent sizing in such small margins of error (such as in the construction of guitars, something I have experience in) is mainly accomplished through only choosing wood that has a specific maximum amount of moisture in it. I will be personally ensuring my wood supplier's moisture levels of wood is consistent with the levels necessary for stability. Otherwise, I have also ensured that the design allows a large amount of extra space for the PCB, both to compensate for manufacturing constraints and the inherent characteristics of wood.
Seeing as it is a custom I would also recommend trying to use high density woods. I think something like wenge could provide the stability that would make it less likely to warp, shrink, crack, etc.

Offline growler

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 13 August 2021, 03:10:51 »
Something naturally moisture resistant so it lasts in variety of climates  as well as appropriate sealing would be important too I guess. Teak? Bamboo?

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Offline ZavaZ86

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 13 August 2021, 03:17:20 »
Really cool to see this. Hope that the issue with wood expanding and such can be solved in a good way.

Offline drunken_sailor

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 13 August 2021, 03:29:33 »
Love the idea. What will you be finishing the wood with? You've poked my love of guitars and I'd love to see the option fir mother of pearl/abalone inlays for the bottom logo, or something small around the board.

Looking forward to hearing this beast, GLWIC!

Offline Anthixious

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 13 August 2021, 04:07:19 »
THIS is what I've been waiting for, a wooden board. I do have a few questions/concerns:

-Will there be a raw/unfinished option so that we could stain the wood ourselves?
-I'm assuming there will be other wood such as Cherry?
-Will there be a numpad made in the future?
-Other plate options? I've gotten brass/alu plates so far with every board I've gotten, but I feel POM or PC could potentially be better.

Offline pr0ximity

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 13 August 2021, 06:09:54 »
Please consider using a very common plate and PCB design. I would be very interested if you used a standard A87 USB-mini PCB and a Jane/Koala 7-point mount plate. They are both very readily available, to the point where you could offer a case-only option, and would give people a lot of options for plate material without more work for yourself.
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Offline brazen

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 13 August 2021, 06:11:42 »
What kind of finish are you planning? 
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IG:  @brazenstudio


Offline MajorKoos

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 13 August 2021, 14:11:35 »
Please consider using a very common plate and PCB design. I would be very interested if you used a standard A87 USB-mini PCB and a Jane/Koala 7-point mount plate. They are both very readily available, to the point where you could offer a case-only option, and would give people a lot of options for plate material without more work for yourself.

Yes please.

Offline zea

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 13 August 2021, 14:55:58 »
Please consider using a very common plate and PCB design. I would be very interested if you used a standard A87 USB-mini PCB and a Jane/Koala 7-point mount plate. They are both very readily available, to the point where you could offer a case-only option, and would give people a lot of options for plate material without more work for yourself.

yes yes yes and yes to this. way more options for people to try and a bit less work for you. everybody wins!  :)

Offline hashbrown565

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 13 August 2021, 17:49:04 »
For the sake of saving everyone time, I'm going to answer all the questions in this reply.

Q: Do you have a price range?
A: Yes, I aim to price the keyboard at no more than $600 $400 (assuming some madlad doesn't order it with Koa), with a target price of $500. For many of the questions I am about to answer, I thought it best to not give definitive answers in the IC due to the possibility of change, so everything I am about to say is potentially subject to change, but you have my word that they won't unless there's a good reason.

Q: Are you open to having the keyboard made out of [insert wood species here]?
A: If there's demand, and it's feasible, I see no reason not to. But I implore anyone who wishes to see a wood option that I did not mention to fill out the IC and submit your desired wood species in the "other" option.

Q: What will the wood be finished with?
A: The wood will be finished with something known as pre-catalyzed lacquer. It is similar in many ways to nitrocellulose lacquer, a finishing method utilized by some of the most well known guitar companies in the world, including Gibson. It gives great protection against the elements and can be applied very efficiently in a factory setting. While I would love to have been able to use oil finishes, doing so would put a burden of care on the customer that I am unwilling to give them due to how much I plan on selling the board for. You came here for a keyboard, not a piece of furniture that you have to baby.

Q: Will you be offering an option to buy the keyboard unfinished?
A: Initially, that was my plan. While I would love to still do that, I do not think that it would be possible due to the inherent instability of wood when subjected to temperature changes (while unfinished), and the amount of temperature changes during shipping is too long to list. I worry that offering such an option would doom that customer to be left with something useless. If I can offer such an option, I will, but as it stands, I wouldn't expect anything.

Q: Will there be a numpad?
A: Assuming this goes well, I'd be stupid not to make more boards in different form factors, including a numpad.

Q: Any potential for different plate materials?
A: No. For what the board is supposed to do, brass would do the best job I could ask for. It is by far the best material for allowing the acoustic characteristics of the wood to shine. However, someone earlier mentioned the idea of releasing the plate design. Given how many people it seems want to have a plate made of different materials, this is something I am now planning on doing once the Group Buy is done. I am unsure whether or not I'd charge for the design, but if I did, don't expect it to be any more than $10. I'd also provide guidelines on how to go about having a plate made, such as maximum thickness and other miscellaneous details. If people are interested in thicknesses different from the standard 1.5mm, I strongly suggest you say so in the IC, and I can find a way to accommodate for that.

Q: Can't you use a common plate and PCB design?
A: Actually, no. I had to slightly alter the spacing between the different key-clusters to allow for the wood to provide the amount of structural integrity I needed it to provide. This meant I was left with no choice but to create my own plate and PCB design. Plus, I wanted to provide as much compatibility as possible, and the PCB's and plates I found did not offer what I wanted to offer. Yes, I will no longer be selling my own PCB design, and I will instead work with hineybush to bundle in his h87c PCB.

Q: F13??
A: I'll look into it. So far, that makes up 40% of suggestions in the IC, so that's at the top of my list of possible design changes. What mainly worries me is plate and PCB compatibility, so if I can find a way to work with that without a noticeable price change, I see no reason not to add that compatibility. There is now. I made an alternate plate and top design to accomodate for it. I will also be working with hineybush to provide his h88c PCB instead of the h87c.

Q: What about Purpleheart???
A: I regret to inform you, but purpleheart doesn't stay purple forever. It will inevitably become brown in time. As someone who loves the idea of purpleheart (purple is my favorite color), it saddens me too. However, if people still want it, I can see what my supplier has.

Q: Why use Richlite instead of Ebony?
A: Ebony is becoming increasingly endangered due to overexploitation. I cannot in good conscience make a product that uses it. It is for that same reason that I am not willing to use rosewood either. However, Richlite has been shown to have similar acoustic properties to ebony, and is made in an environmentally conscious manner. Richlite also offers different colors, such as brown, grey, even dark blue (even purple!!!). If people are interested in those different colors, I urge you to fill out the IC.

I hope this answers all the questions that have been asked recently, and maybe even some questions that haven't been asked yet. I wish to operate this as transparently as possible, rather than just sit on the sidelines and let people come up with their own answers, only to be disappointed when their answers don't end up being true. If anyone else has questions, I will answer you to the best of my ability.
« Last Edit: Mon, 17 January 2022, 17:04:50 by hashbrown565 »

Offline pr0ximity

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 13 August 2021, 18:09:59 »
At that price point, with a bespoke PCB and plate, in wood, it's a tough sell. People will be rightfully skeptical of the longevity of the case (see the earlier concerns around expansion/contraction and warping).


Best of luck  :thumb:

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Offline hashbrown565

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 13 August 2021, 18:17:49 »
At that price point, with a bespoke PCB and plate, in wood, it's a tough sell. People will be rightfully skeptical of the longevity of the case (see the earlier concerns around expansion/contraction and warping).

I totally understand the skepticism, however, the finish I plan on using provides a large amount of protection against temperature fluctuations, and I will also be ensuring that any potential warehouses and packaging provide adequate temperature control. I hope that helps people have faith in the longevity of the board. This finish is used on many wood products and is designed to stand the test of time with minimal hassle of the end-user. As someone who has experience in guitar building, where wood expansion/contraction/warping would render the instrument unusable incredibly quickly, you have my word that I will not be selling anything that can't stand the test of time.
« Last Edit: Fri, 13 August 2021, 18:21:16 by hashbrown565 »

Offline dandruff

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 13 August 2021, 20:08:46 »
I'll be keeping an eye on the project out of interest and support for wooden boards, but I think at that price range, I'm pretty concerned.

Idk much about wood material and such (so I apologize if I sound ignorant), but gentleman65 had half wood (top) and price tag was around $120. People make wooden cases (for some tray mount pcbs) on reddit for sub $100. A wooden KL-90 is going for $300 or so next month.

May you break down what affects the overall cost? Since I would also assume wood as a raw material is significantly more affordable than alum right now.

Offline rinkaan

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 13 August 2021, 20:44:18 »
given that not all wood grows wide enough to make planks for the case, are the types of wood selection limited?
Would like to see tulipwood bottom and holly top, but from my understanding they dont grow wide enough for the case dimensions...
500 target seems reasonable enough for all the logistical work and the chance of cnc causing failure in the wood (chipouts and what not)

matching wood grained keycaps potentially?  ;D

Offline hashbrown565

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 14 August 2021, 12:27:12 »
I'll be keeping an eye on the project out of interest and support for wooden boards, but I think at that price range, I'm pretty concerned.

Idk much about wood material and such (so I apologize if I sound ignorant), but gentleman65 had half wood (top) and price tag was around $120. People make wooden cases (for some tray mount pcbs) on reddit for sub $100. A wooden KL-90 is going for $300 or so next month.

May you break down what affects the overall cost? Since I would also assume wood as a raw material is significantly more affordable than alum right now.
Of course, I'd be happy to break down why I came to that price estimate. Here are the main things that affect cost: Materials, machining, finishing, shipping, and packaging.

Materials: While normally you'd be right, the type of wood I'd be using would come at a much higher price point than your typical lumber. Not only are the woods I'd be offering be high quality tonewoods (woods that are praised for their acoustic properties), but the wood used would have to be free of certain blemishes, such as knots. This has the potential to generate a lot of unused wood.

Machining: This is mostly the same as machining aluminum, as the main cost factor is the time it takes to machine the parts. However, wood also has the potential to have chipouts during the machining process, which means more scrap. In the prototyping stage, I was able to find a way to reduce chipouts significantly during the CNC machining, but it is still a possibility, and the price will need to reflect this risk for scrap.

Finishing: This is another differentiating factor. Finishing metal is a very different process from finishing wood, as finishing wood is much more labor intensive. There are even cases where finishing aluminum isn't even required to achieve the desired result.

Shipping: Given the nature of wood, shipping will have to be done in a way that controls temperature changes, adding expense. This can include temperature control warehouse space.

Packaging: This has the potential to also be more expensive, as it might also have to be done in a way that regulates temperature changes, depending on how protective the finish is (it will definitely protect against seasonal temperature changes, I am not so sure about traveling around the world).

Gentleman65 uses significantly less wood than a full keyboard made of it. The wooden tray mount cases are cheap due to the fact that it's only one person making it, and they are being made one at a time rather than in large quantities. I can't speak for the wooden KL-90, but this goes into my next point: the $500 target I made is a very rough estimate. If I can price it lower and still maintain an adequate profit margin, I will, because a lower price point means higher accessibility, which means more people will buy it.

I hope that gives a good explanation as to my thought process on the pricing.
« Last Edit: Sat, 14 August 2021, 12:39:12 by hashbrown565 »

Offline hashbrown565

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 14 August 2021, 12:31:15 »
given that not all wood grows wide enough to make planks for the case, are the types of wood selection limited?
Would like to see tulipwood bottom and holly top, but from my understanding they dont grow wide enough for the case dimensions...
500 target seems reasonable enough for all the logistical work and the chance of cnc causing failure in the wood (chipouts and what not)

matching wood grained keycaps potentially?  ;D
There are some woods that I inherently cannot use due to width. I highly suggest you fill out the IC and submit the woods you'd like to see in the "other" option. If there is enough demand, and it's feasible, I will do my best to deliver.

In regards to wood keycaps: maybe, it would require the use of machinery that's even more complex than what's necessary for the keyboard, so the price would have to reflect that. If the keyboard goes well, and there's demand, I can see what can be done.
« Last Edit: Sat, 14 August 2021, 12:35:53 by hashbrown565 »

Offline piit79

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #29 on: Sun, 15 August 2021, 13:48:34 »
Sounded interesting until I read the price estimate :) While I understand that your goal is clearly to produce a high-end wooden keyboard, the price is sadly prohibitive. Like I don't play a $5000 guitar, I can't justify a $500 keyboard case.

But that's just me. Good luck with the project.

Offline shansoft

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #30 on: Sun, 15 August 2021, 14:52:36 »
If this keyboard have h87 PCB support, then I will definitely get more than one board. It's going to be a perfect sounding board for Alps build......
Also more supplies on the market for reusable components  ;D

Offline AbanOnPC

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 16 August 2021, 13:12:26 »
I love this board, been looking for a nice wooden one. keeping it on watch :)

Offline hashbrown565

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Re: [IC] Fiodha - A Wooden TKL
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 17 January 2022, 16:52:43 »
Hello everyone!

Apologies for the large gap in updates. I started college soon after posting the IC, so that took up all of my attention. However, once the semester ended, I've made significant progress on both implementing feedback and improving the design for the sake of manufacturability and aesthetics.

Now that I've made the design cheaper to manufacture and will be relying on hineybush for the PCB, I'm changing the target price to $400. Just to reiterate, if I can price it lower, I will, but I will try my best to make sure the price doesn't exceed the target.

My next steps are to find manufacturers for everything, compensate for their error margins, then find out how to compensate for wood movement if necessary (I had the idea of shipping the board assembled so as to minimize wood movement in transit, but I am consulting experts on if/how I can compensate for wood movement in the design). After that, once shipping is figured out, the GB can proceed.

Now that the bulk of the design work is done, expect more frequent updates.

PS: Wow, I did not think there would be this much demand for Koa on the board. Just an FYI, not only would I have to source the Koa from a different wood supplier than my current one, but Koa is so ridiculously expensive that I'd estimate it would bring the price of the board up to above $1,000. The reason for its cost is that Koa only grows in Hawaii, it's both extremely well protected and the demand is much higher than the supply. I'm fine with fulfilling any potential Koa boards, but anyone who wants it should expect a massive price jump.
« Last Edit: Fri, 21 January 2022, 14:21:57 by hashbrown565 »