Subjective opinions needed on going down the rabbit hole

[rsrogers4]

I am lucky enough to have a Geonworks Frog TKL, and am currently using the aluminum plate. I've added SA-P Industrial keycaps, unlubed stock Alpaca v2 switches, and Krytox 205G0 lubed Everglide stabs. I have been using this for about a month and am truly loving it! Wow, I never realized how nice it would be to have the mouse closer to the keyboard with the TKL.

I bought some extra options to try different things out: Frog case foam, Frog plate foam, Frog FR4 PCB, and TX 60g Springs. I'm also thinking of getting a set of Gazzew U4 Boba switches to see if I like tactile better than linear. I'd like to do some experiments with these options to learn what I like. I know that others think foam and in particular plate foam are bogus, but I wouldn't mind trying so I can learn for myself.

So here are my n00b questions:

1) Is there any ideal order that I should try these options out in for maximum learning, or should I just randomly experiment? I was thinking lube the switches and perhaps switch out springs would  be the next logical step. I may use Tribosys 3204 since I have some and it is supposedly easier for beginners (I also have 3205 and 205G0).

2) I love the SA-P keycaps... truly love them. Love the feel, look, and sound. But they're the only high end keycaps I've ever tried. Should I try Hammerworks CRP or MT3 or something else, or just stick for now with what I know I love?

3) When will I know that I've outgrown the Frog (which is supposed to be entry level), and what might be upgrades? The Frog feels great and I can't imagine anything nicer but I've never tried anything that is supposedly nicer either. I would like to try a 65% form factor but doubt a 60% or lower would work for me. I entered the Keycult 02/65 raffle just for kicks but didn't win. I have my eye on the Gok Venn, Rama, or ai03 Vega someday if they ever release these to GB, and I'll probably be one of the thousands of losers in the Geonworks F2 raffle. Any others to look out for?

Thanks in advance.

[jamster]

3) When will I know that I've outgrown the Frog (which is supposed to be entry level), and what might be upgrades? The Frog feels great and I can't imagine anything nicer but I've never tried anything that is supposedly nicer either. I would like to try a 65% form factor but doubt a 60% or lower would work for me. I entered the Keycult 02/65 raffle just for kicks but didn't win. I have my eye on the Gok Venn, Rama, or ai03 Vega someday if they ever release these to GB, and I'll probably be one of the thousands of losers in the Geonworks F2 raffle. Any others to look out for?

What do you want from keyboards- something comfortable to type on, something with a specific feel or layout, desktop jewellery for your own enjoyment, or desktop jewellery for social media validation? The keyboards you mention in the above are 'fancy' and 'expensive' but I would not say they are a 'higher level' without understanding what it is that you really want in the first place.

Before diving down, choose which rabbit hole you want.

[Leslieann]

I think foam is controversial because of how many varieties there are, if you use the wrong foam (or not enough) you won't hear any change.

1. You're going to want to do one change at a time.
Lube dropped spring pressures on my Cherry Blues by about 3-4g (which is significant), so doing this at the same time as changing springs is going to alter how you feel the spring.
Lube also reduces side bind and ping so if you are going to lube regardless (recommended), lube first then try the new springs.

Get your switches figured out first, then try plates and foams and such, though I'd foam regardless. I say this because you only have so much room to tweak switches and switches matter more than anything else. Work the most important and biggest effects then work on minor changes.

2. Every time you try something plan on having to buy that for every keyboard you buy from then on. If you're happy with it don't change just to try something (it gets expensive), wait till you get bored then try something new.

3. You don't outgrow a (standard sized) keyboard, it really only has a single function, to input text. Your priorities may change, you may get bored, or you may decide something else may work better, but you can't really outgrow it. 

As for that being entry level... If that's entry level what the heck is high end? 
I'd ignore anyone telling you it's "entry level" because they're a massive f*cking keyboard snob who won't be happy until they get a Keycult and then put Keycult out of business so no one else can get one because "if everyone has one it's obviously for plebs".

I could probably have bought a Keycult for what I've spent on this hobby and yet some of my favorite keyboards are actually some of the ones I spent the least on. There is VERY much a point of diminishing returns and once you pass a certain point it's entirely cosmetic. Think about what the keyboard is built from, they all use the same interchangeable switches and stabs the only difference is the slab they slide into. You'd be AMAZED how good a cheap keyboard can be if you simply swap stabs and apply foam and lube... You know, the same things we do on high end keyboards we build and then compare to cheap boards to make ourselves feel better about all the money we just spent/wasted.

For the record, that is far from entry level, you don't get brass and copper even as options on entry level.

[rsrogers4]

Thanks so much for the great input!

@Jamster, I could care less about jewelry. I think it is kind of ridiculous that the bling parts of some of these fancy/expensive keyboards are on the bottom and back, two areas that I will NEVER see because my keyboard sits on my desk and is used for typing. I had to laugh that on a recent IC this was taking to its logical silly extreme with the bling parts being inside the tray underneath the plate! Really, the only thing I care about are typing feel and VIA support (layers are cool!). I am mildly curious about what additional flex or different mounting systems might feel like. I thought I would hate missing the numpad when I switched to TKL, but it turns out I love the TKL form factor and would also like to see how a 65% feels.

@Leslieann, thanks for the wonderful advice. I will lube the switches first, and make one change at a time as you've suggested. I was planning on making one change per month just so I can get a good base of experience for how it feels. I agree the Frog is outstanding - the level of craftsmanship is phenomenal, and I know the large brass weight is unheard of at the Frog price point. I could care less about cosmetics so maybe I should go with something cheap to test out 65% - the Keychron Q1 seems like good value and I would guess they'll follow up with a 65% version. (This is subjective, but I personally don't like how 75% looks.)

[Leslieann]

@Leslieann, thanks for the wonderful advice. I will lube the switches first, and make one change at a time as you've suggested. I was planning on making one change per month just so I can get a good base of experience for how it feels. I agree the Frog is outstanding - the level of craftsmanship is phenomenal, and I know the large brass weight is unheard of at the Frog price point. I could care less about cosmetics so maybe I should go with something cheap to test out 65% - the Keychron Q1 seems like good value and I would guess they'll follow up with a 65% version. (This is subjective, but I personally don't like how 75% looks.)

You're welcome.
Sorry if some of that came across harsh, I thought I had a warning/sorry in it but it got lost in an edit I guess. There's too many online who push uber expensive boards (and other parts) who really have no idea what is causing what, which is why it's good you want to take the time and see what things actually do. It's like Instagram and such, people only push the glitzy or screw ups, normal doesn't get attention. It's the same reason people think they NEED a 3090 because every Youtuber/famous streamer has one. I had a customer just last week who was all but demanding his parents get him an RTX 3090 for playing Minecraft on a 10 year old 1080p screen, never mind what the rest of the system was like (a modest little ITX system that was half the size of the 3090).

I hate the looks of 75% (cluttered) but I love the form factor, unfortunately it turns out I'm really lazy with how I hit the numrow and on a 75% that leads to all sorts of bad things happening when you trigger f-keys and numbers together. I have 2 nice ones, I don't use either one. As for your TKL troubles, get a separate numpad for those times you need one. It will get you through times you REALLY need one, and force you consider how badly you actually need it "Do I really need to dig this out and attach it? nah". I quickly discovered I didn't really need it all that much. Same with F-keys. I really only miss them when going into bios or needing to spam that f5 key or drop to console.

As for cheap fun keyboards...
Magicforce used to be near the top of my list of fun boards but because it's soldered and new things have come along it's harder to recommend. Is it great? No, but it's shocking how good it is for what it costs. It also has a fun layout. It's a board you just don't mind being stupid with. Want to try desoldering, this is your board. No backlights? Try and add some! Want to toss in a QMK compatible pcb, they have those too. It's just a silly keyboard you can mod and destroy and not feel bad about it and yet somehow manages to still be charming. It's exactly what it is and it hides nothing.  Mine is in parts waiting for me to assemble the QMK pcb for it. I've considered making a full aluminum case for it just to be completely stupid about it. Why? Because it's just silly to mod something where almost anything you do costs more than the keyboard itself.

GMMK barebones (not the pro), it makes for a good, cheap switch tester and backup board. Easy to mod, easy/cheap to replace, light weight. One of my favorites for people wanting to just get started or have lots of spare parts they can put into it. When you decide on what switch you want in your Frog, put the spare parts to work in a GMMK. Toss better stabs and some nice caps and it's no longer super cheap but put it will make people with far more expensive boards stand up and take note. Mine is being used by a family member who loves it. I miss it.

I'm probably looking at either a cheap ergo next or something wireless (Royal Kludge?) for use those rare times it makes sense. You also may want to look at the Royal Kludge or Epomaker for a 65%. Other fun things to try, Alps, Buckling Springs, don't limit yourself to just MX stuff.

[_rubik]

1) Is there any ideal order that I should try these options out in for maximum learning, or should I just randomly experiment? I was thinking lube the switches and perhaps switch out springs would  be the next logical step. I may use Tribosys 3204 since I have some and it is supposedly easier for beginners (I also have 3205 and 205G0).

I personally like the idea of getting handful of switches and trying various combinations of mods. Spring swap two, lube two, ss and lube two, try a different lube on another two, keep two stock, etc etc. Maybe even try out different switches. That way you'll be able to compare each iteration.

I've had to redo and entire board because I rolled out a big change without testing first. You'll be amazed at how seemingly small changes make a sizable difference.

3) When will I know that I've outgrown the Frog (which is supposed to be entry level), and what might be upgrades? The Frog feels great and I can't imagine anything nicer but I've never tried anything that is supposedly nicer either. I would like to try a 65% form factor but doubt a 60% or lower would work for me. I entered the Keycult 02/65 raffle just for kicks but didn't win. I have my eye on the Gok Venn, Rama, or ai03 Vega someday if they ever release these to GB, and I'll probably be one of the thousands of losers in the Geonworks F2 raffle. Any others to look out for?

As other have said, you'll never outgrow a keyboard. You might get bored or your tastes might change, but you'll never "be over it". If you can, head to a few keyboard meetups and get hands on with a wide range of layouts.

Also, the more you use your current Frog, the better sense you'll get as to what you do and don't like about it. I personally thought TKLs were my one and only layout until I noticed how often I was shifting my hand to the nav cluster, so I gave a 60% alice clone a try. I wouldn't rush to change layout or try the next board -- that'll all come in time.

[rsrogers4]

@Leslieann Thanks, I didn't take anything in your message as harsh. I get it. Mechanical keyboards last basically forever, and the mech community is small (albeit apparently growing) so to sell new boards there has to be a certain amount of hype and churn around new features and gizmos. I would guess the continual hype train and fanboi mentality could get tiring over time. On the other hand, I am curious about slowly trying new things and learning and the cheaper keyboards you mentioned seem great! I especially liked the look of the Epomaker, and geez a 65% with PBT caps for $63.20 is kind of amazing.

@Rubik, I never thought of modding just a few switches at a time. That's a cool idea, and I'll try that. I have extra Alpaca v2's so I can start this right now. I wish Via or QMK had a way to keep track of how many times I press each key over a several month period - maybe they do and I just haven't figured it out yet - that would help me determine which keys I need. I think that I never use the function key row other than the occasional F5, and I know I don't use the keys above the arrows on a TKL. So maybe I could live with a 60%?

[_rubik]

I wish Via or QMK had a way to keep track of how many times I press each key over a several month period - maybe they do and I just haven't figured it out yet - that would help me determine which keys I need. I think that I never use the function key row other than the occasional F5, and I know I don't use the keys above the arrows on a TKL. So maybe I could live with a 60%?

You can always try and treat your TKL like a 60 or 65. Map layers for arrows and function keys, avoid using the nav cluster and f-row, and see what you think. You're in the fortunate position where you can test before you buy.

[rsrogers4]

@Rubik, another great idea--thanks.

[Volny]

Padding a case with material can make a big difference to sound and feel, but it depends on the material. Dense material will dampen sound better than light and foamy material, and will obviously add more weight too, which can make the keyboard feel sturdier.

Butyl rubber or neoprene are both good. I really like the adhesive neoprene sheets I get from my local rubber store. The adhesive is really strong and ensures that once it's in it won't be jiggling around on you. It's easy to cut to shape, and you can buy multiple thicknesses.

I also stick a layer or two of this neoprene on the underside of all of my keyboards, at least at the rear. I like a high typing angle, and this does a much better job than the flimsy little legs and bumpons that most keyboards come with. It's more stable, adjustable, provides subtle cushioning, and greatly reduces sound reverberation.

Oh, and another word of advice: TURN BACK NOW! IT'S JUST A BLOODY KEYBOARD FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD; DON'T LET IT CONSUME YOU. IT'S TOO LATE FOR US, BUT YOU CAN STILL SAVE YOURSELF!   

[rsrogers4]

@Volny, hah too funny. My would agree that I already have one foot in the keyboard abyss. Interesting to hear about neoprene. The case and plate foam sheets I got from Geonworks is poron; I'll try that first and later experiment with different kinds of foam. When you said you put neoprene on the keyboard bottom that reminded me that Taeha Types apparently uses 6-7 desk mats for his sound tests.

[jamster]

I'll offer another bit of cynical-sounding, but well-intentioned, advice here:

Keep some perspective, or an eye on the bigger picture. It's easy to get lost in the minutiae of dozens of permutations of switches- this stem, that housing, those spring weights, that choice of lubing. This hobby attracts people who love obsessing over things to the nth degree.

Personally, I've tried a decent range of switches (mostly the tactile and silent tactile families) as I have easy access to Taobao. They're different, but more alike than not. If you stick with MX, you'll be coming across relatively mild variations of the same thing. Variations that Youtube reviews will blow up to gigantic proportions.

To get a markedly different experience, I look outside into other switch types which necessitate 'standard' format keyboards.

[rsrogers4]

Thanks @Jamster. That makes sense. I was thinking of getting a second hand Topre numpad just to check that out. I truly appreciate all the expert advice on this thread.

[Leslieann]

Padding a case with material can make a big difference to sound and feel, but it depends on the material. Dense material will dampen sound better than light and foamy material, and will obviously add more weight too, which can make the keyboard feel sturdier.

While airy foam by itself may not do much just sitting in the bottom it can actually do quite a lot of it contacts and puts some pressure on the pcb dampening the vibration from/across it. While the pcb amplifies switch sound less than the plate it can be more than the case.