IBM model M questions

[Genkaz]

I have a few certain questions/description requests about IBM model M in general that I have relatively recently purchased from this seller: link

1. I would like to know the differences between the 1986 version and a 1995 version of model M, most importantly the reason for the 1986 version being significantly more preferred on average (as far as I am aware.)

2. I was wondering how loud buckling springs are compared to MX Blacks.

3. I recently purchased Deck 82 Ice, and so far appear to be quite enjoying it, ignoring a slightly increased ratio of spelling errors and typing speed which will hopefully no longer be present in the future. If I were to genuinely enjoy the model M and found out that it increased my typing performance immediately as opposed to the Deck, would it be a good idea to return the Deck? (I only had it for 19 days.)

4. Many individuals claim that model M's are virtually indestructible/incredibly durable, I would be very interesting in hearing  a few stories relating to this area of model M properties.

5. I would appreciate if a few individuals shared their personal experiences with that curious board, and whether they would recommend using buckling springs over MX blacks for genuinely dedicated gaming purposes (I am quite aware of the fact that buckling springs for the most part are much better then MX blacks for typing due to their tactile and clicky nature ( I am not sure about the clicky part.)

[ch_123]

1. I would like to know the differences between the 1986 version and a 1995 version of model M, most importantly the reason for the 1986 version being significantly more preferred on average (as far as I am aware.)

It depends on what sort of 1986 model and 1995 model you're talking about it =P

Broadly speaking, as time went along, there were alterations to the design, some of which included things like loosening tolerances and switching to lighter materials, so the later Model Ms are lighter (in terms of the weight of the keyboard as opposed to the force required to press the keys) and flex a bit more in some places. Nonetheless, these are relatively subtle, and don't really affect the overall sturdiness of the keyboard - they're still better built than most other stuff on the market.

If you have a newer and older Model M, both in good condition, they will offer pretty much the same typing experience. The issue is that things like spring wear and broken plastic rivets will affect the typing feel, and older keyboards are more likely to have those things by virtue of being older.

tl;dr conclusion - unless you're a collector, you should worry much more about the condition of the keyboard instead of how old it is.

[MissileMike]

I have them from 87 to 99, and the differences are subtle.  In fact, newer ones have a lesser chance of having broken plastic rivets inside...  So like ch_123 says, you should probably focus on the condition of the keyboard mostly.

[Genkaz]

Absolutely no problem. I would also quite appreciate if some of you listed your experiences with the model M. along with a few other things requested in the OP.

[spremino]

If you have a newer and older Model M, both in good condition, they will offer pretty much the same typing experience. The issue is that things like spring wear and broken plastic rivets will affect the typing feel, and older keyboards are more likely to have those things by virtue of being older.

Do you mean that just by replacing springs, your Model M would feel as new?

[Daniel Beaver]

5. I would appreciate if a few individuals shared their personal experiences with that curious board, and whether they would recommend using buckling springs over MX blacks for genuinely dedicated gaming purposes (I am quite aware of the fact that buckling springs for the most part are much better then MX blacks for typing due to their tactile and clicky nature ( I am not sure about the clicky part.)

I haven't tried MX blacks for gaming, but I have played quite a bit on my Model M. It is a very good gaming experience, IMO. The keys don't wobble around, and the "feel" of the keys is good for quick actuation.

4. Many individuals claim that model M's are virtually indestructible/incredibly durable, I would be very interesting in hearing a few stories relating to this area of model M properties.

That is accurate. I've restored a few that were sitting out in mud and rain, under a pile 5 deep of other keyboards. They all work just peachy after a good scrubbing. I find a lot of crushed, non-functional keyboards. I find very few non-functional modem ms.

[Genkaz]

I haven't tried MX blacks for gaming, but I have played quite a bit on my Model M. It is a very good gaming experience, IMO. The keys don't wobble around, and the "feel" of the keys is good for quick actuation.

That is accurate. I've restored a few that were sitting out in mud and rain, under a pile 5 deep of other keyboards. They all work just peachy after a good scrubbing. I find a lot of crushed, non-functional keyboards. I find very few non-functional modem ms.

I also believe that buckling springs provide a rather excellent typing experience. Many individuals claim that it is virtually the best keyboard based typing experience that you can get out there.

[Genkaz]

I have currently temporarily switched to a Dell AT101W.

[Voixdelion]

I read this article quite by accident, and didn't think anything of it except a vague nostalgia at the time - it wasn't until about 6 or 8 months, maybe even a year or more passed that I finally put 2 and 2 together realizing why my typing was so much better in high school.  I think this is the original story that Phaedrus referenced in the the Mech Keyboard thread at OCN that triggered that epiphany as well:

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/29/1334258
 by RobertM1968 (951074)
 Thursday May 29 2008, @02:59PM (#23590303)  

   "While the Model M is not immortal,  it is as close to immortal as any keyboard or piece of computer  equipment ever was.
I have a few old Model M keyboards... still running. I bought my  mother a computer 15 years ago or so, and gave her a (used) Model M with  it. She has went through numerous computers, and still uses that same  Model M (it turned 22 years old this past February). She wont  give it away, she wont sell it, she wont part with it for any reason.  Her computer dies, she gets a new one, chucks the keyboard that comes  with it and plugs in the Model M. Doesn't bat an eye over replacing a  computer every few years... doesn't have any intention of ever replacing  her Model M and expects it to outlast her next few computers (which it  probably will).
Interestingly, as her's is a lot older than the Model M's and  M13s I have, the click is very unique in comparison. About as loud, but  more metallic/click sounding.
I used to have a few dozen of them (bought a box full of them). I  had one "test" keyboard, which we tried killing... we'd walk on it (ok,  that's nothing for a Model M... but we had to try), we drove over it  with an Isuzu Trooper (well, the guy driving hit the gas and it shot out  from under the back wheel across the parking lot... minor scratches on  the bottom)... we put it in front of a city bus' rear wheels and watched  as the bus edged up on it waiting for a traffic light to change, and  then drove off... still worked of course. Finally, we launched it off a 3  story roof... as far outwards as we could throw it (musta went a few  hundred feet horizontal, in addition to the three story drop)... picking  up the keycaps and such was not fun. Though we did manage to shatter  the outer case (and couldnt find a few keycaps), it still worked.  We took a small torch to the plastic... weird stuff, that plastic...  it's surface bubbled and browned, but we would have had to hold  the torch to it for quite a long time to melt through, so we gave up.  
A sledge hammer managed to damage the plastic keycap plate enough  in a few areas to stop some keys from working... but then again, most  people dont run over their keyboards or hit them repeatedly with sledge  hammers.  
We did have a few in the box we bought that had some issues...  most seemed to be screwed up springs from being jammed in with so many  others (fallen off keycaps and bent, damaged or missing springs).  

. . .

I type 12 hours a day, every day... and will not use anything but  a Model M/M13 unless absolutely necessary. Once you get used to the  click (which does serve a purpose and increases typing speed), you find  that you look at the keyboard or screen a lot less when typing, you make  less mistakes, and you type faster. I can hit over 80wpm on a Model  M... 40-50 on a mushy keyboard.
It's kinda funny... something as "simple" as a keyboard, and this  particular keyboard (the Model M) has entire websites, fan sites and  various blog pages devoted to it. Even funnier was that IBM saw fit to  put their dates of birth on each and every keyboard - like we should  celebrate them. Maybe I'll buy mine a cake it's next Birthday...;-)"


Shortly after reading the paraphrase of this at OCN in that Guide I set about obtaining one and discovered that my typing skills improved immediately by twofold.  Faster and more accurate - the only downfall was that my fingers didn't have the stamina for long sessions.  It was really a bit a of a workout for the hands, but felt fabulous even so.  But that fatigue was what had me wondering if I was just getting old or if there was some other board of yore that I was thinking of.  Researching that, I ended up here on April 1 of this year and I am now unable to escape...   I did have a lot of trouble getting one to arrive intact through ebay though - most sellers are amateurs.  That thing will beat up the box from inside if not packed well, and the first three arrived with keys rattling around in (what was left of) the box.   When I won the fourth, I explained the history to the next seller and gave explicit guidelines to avoid repeating it.  He was actually grateful since he had just gotten dinged by the last customer for one arriving in shambles... They all worked though- once I put their teeth back in...

[wellington1869]

older ones are considered more 'authentic', especially by older people. I do thnk there's something to the story that quality declined slightly into the mid-nineties; personally i'd like to have something from late 80s or early 90s.

rugged? Put it this way. You could bash ripster on the side of the head with it, and he wouldnt wake up for three days.

oh, and the keyboard would still work fine.

typing experience: if you type language sentences, there's no better typing experience at any price, if you ask me.  The main problem is today people are just used to quieter keyboards and so it can be jarring to have one in the house (spouse, kids, and neighbors may actually complain about the noise). If you have the sound-freedom though, you'll get used to the sound quickly and miss it when its gone.

As a close second i'd recommend fukka alps by the way, personally I see them as a slightly lighter version of BS in terms of satisfying typing and feedback experience.

If you want them for gaming, thats another story. They werent made for gaming, they were made for people who type 8 hours a day.

For a lot of us, the nostalgia is a big part of the draw. A lot of us grew up typing on these, wrote our first programs on them, our first term papers, and had our first sexual experience while lying on top of one.

I think its probably true that a slightly quieter and lighter version is more appropriate for this century. Unfortunately the keyboard industry is in such a state of retardation, that no one is re-engineering and updating this switch for modern times.

[microsoft windows]

You could bash ripster on the side of the head with it, and he wouldnt wake up for three days.

oh, and the keyboard would still work fine.

I better get me some Model M's!

[Genkaz]

I think its probably true that a slightly quieter and lighter version is more appropriate for this century. Unfortunately the keyboard industry is in such a state of retardation, that no one is re-engineering and updating this switch for modern times.

I would highly appreciate if you expressed your opinions in greater detail about the state of the keyboard industry of today.

I actually heard that buckling springs certainly do not cripple gaming, they do not necessarily enhance it, but certainly do not cripple it.

[jpc]

In the last 24 hours I've used a 1987 IBM model M and a 1996 Lexmark model M, both full size buckling spring boards.

They feel and sound a little bit different, but they are both very nice for typing. The earlier one sounds "pongier" and the later one sounds "crisper" and perhaps feels a little lighter under your fingers. Is one "better"? I can't really tell.

The condition of the board will make a bigger difference than the year of manufacture. Does it have its rivets? Are keys or springs damaged? A clean, undamaged board with all its rivets is going to give you a nice experience, whether it's IBM, Lexmark, or Unicomp.

[wellington1869]

if you really want to go authentic and pingy, you should be looking at the model F.  After thinking about it I'm pretty sure my original keyboard (that came with the ibm pc my dad bought in 1982 or so) was a F and not an M.  Thats actually the one I remember growing up on. It was terrific. Ie, far more IBM Selectric-like, IIRC. (We also had a selectric in the house, btw. Good times, good times).  But I havent bought an F now because of key-layout issues and connector/adapter issues.

[wellington1869]

The condition of the board will make a bigger difference than the year of manufacture. Does it have its rivets? Are keys or springs damaged? A clean, undamaged board with all its rivets is going to give you a nice experience, whether it's IBM, Lexmark, or Unicomp.

another nice thing is you can actually buy new ones from unicomp.

[Genkaz]

another nice thing is you can actually buy new ones from unicomp.

If by some extremely small chance the model M that I bought from Ebay becomes unusable over a certain amount of time, and if I liked it when it worked, then I will definitely considering purchasing a new one from them.

One more thing, how hard is it to get around a model M mini these days? The concept of it looked extremely appealing to me, which was basically a keyboard of the model M quality in a noticeably smaller package.

Ofcourse all of these plans are for the future, there is a very high chance that I will be satisfied with the model M that I purchased from Ebay which will also most likely be virtually eternal just like virtually other model M out there.

If by some chance I find buckling springs to be unpleasant/incompatible for my purposes, then I suppose that I would have to continue my mechanical keyboard research.

If buckling springs were to be compared to other mechanical switch types, which one would they be most similar to? so far I am assuming that they resemble MX blues, I may have misunderstood their properties though.

[ch_123]

The Unicomp Spacesaver is only about 1.5 inches wider than the IBM Mini. The mini is not a drastically smaller keyboard than an average sized one, although much smaller than a traditional fullsize Model M.

In terms of switch comparison, I'd say closer to White Alps.

[Voixdelion]

If by some extremely small chance the model M that I bought from Ebay becomes unusable over a certain amount of time, and if I liked it when it worked, then I will definitely considering purchasing a new one from them.

One more thing, how hard is it to get around a model M mini these days? The concept of it looked extremely appealing to me, which was basically a keyboard of the model M quality in a noticeably smaller package.

Ofcourse all of these plans are for the future, there is a very high chance that I will be satisfied with the model M that I purchased from Ebay which will also most likely be virtually eternal just like virtually other model M out there.

If by some chance I find buckling springs to be unpleasant/incompatible for my purposes, then I suppose that I would have to continue my mechanical keyboard research.

If buckling springs were to be compared to other mechanical switch types, which one would they be most similar to? so far I am assuming that they resemble MX blues, I may have misunderstood their properties though.

Uh-oh.  (insert ominously knowing laughter.)  I take it you had come this far thinking that you'd be on your merry way with your M and be done with it, eh?  Just wrapping up a few details to be sure you've got the bases covered and made the right choices...   I hate to tell you, but you too are exhibiting classic symptoms.   Don't ask too many questions; Geekhack is a Pandora's box of information that is very difficult to close.  

 Lock up your wallet.  Quick.  Before its too late!

[wellington1869]

yea i'd say alps too.

its not really like the blues except superficially in that both have some form of tactile and audible feedback. But they're actually very different. Most people would prolly  compare BS to alps.

[Genkaz]

The Unicomp Spacesaver is only about 1.5 inches wider than the IBM Mini. The mini is not a drastically smaller keyboard than an average sized one, although much smaller than a traditional fullsize Model M.

In terms of switch comparison, I'd say closer to White Alps.

Thank you very much for telling me about the space saver, I was actually under the impression that it was significantly larger then the mini, I will definitely pay attention to it if I find the model M to be too large (and if I also actually like it.)

White Alps does not sound like a common type of switch, are they tactile and clicky?

[Genkaz]

Uh-oh.  (insert ominously knowing laughter.)  I take it you had come this far thinking that you'd be on your merry way with your M and be done with it, eh?  Just wrapping up a few details to be sure you've got the bases covered and made the right choices...   I hate to tell you, but you too are exhibiting classic symptoms.   Don't ask too many questions; Geekhack is a Pandora's box of information that is very difficult to close.  

 Lock up your wallet.  Quick.  Before its too late!

I should have the appropriate immunity towards whatever disease that you are describing.

[wellington1869]

White Alps does not sound like a common type of switch, are they tactile and clicky?

alps is one of those topics, pandora boxes hard-to-close very messy

I dont know what types of alps are being made new these days, but usually you can find the classic alps boards on ebay.  The Gh wiki lists a bunch of them.

dell at101w gives you the basics, but several very easy mods makes them much nicer (can add or remove click, add or remove bottoming clack, change resistance pretty easily to some degree, etc).  

My fav is fukka alps with click leaf and dampened sliders. (light click, no clack).

whatever you do dont ask about controller chip issues.

[wellington1869]

I should have the appropriate immunity towards whatever disease that you are describing.

its the disease described in green in my sig.
i'm recovering tho, as i declare in blue.

[didjamatic]

1. I would like to know the differences between the 1986 version and a 1995 version of model M, most importantly the reason for the 1986 version being significantly more preferred on average (as far as I am aware.)
In my humble opinion, the best model M's were pre-Lexmark because they carved away so much of the overkill that made the Model M so great.  They're all good, but my preference is for older ones.

2. I was wondering how loud buckling springs are compared to MX Blacks.
It depends if you pound the keys on your MX blacks, if you do, then they might only be a little louder or even quieter if you really slam them.  Blacks are silent if you press slowly but can be noisy if you bottom out hard, BS go click when you press slowly.

3. I recently purchased Deck 82 Ice, and so far appear to be quite enjoying it, ignoring a slightly increased ratio of spelling errors and typing speed which will hopefully no longer be present in the future. If I were to genuinely enjoy the model M and found out that it increased my typing performance immediately as opposed to the Deck, would it be a good idea to return the Deck? (I only had it for 19 days.)
No one can answer that question but you.  

4. Many individuals claim that model M's are virtually indestructible/incredibly durable, I would be very interesting in hearing  a few stories relating to this area of model M properties.
They are more durable than you would ever need a keyboard to be.  If you're breaking something on one then you're doin it wrong.  However, they do have plastic rivets inside that can break from use, age and abuse.  This can be remedied with a bolt mod that ripster documented well on this site.

[didjamatic]

its the disease described in green in my sig.
i'm recovering tho, as i declare in blue.

Welly was recovering, but he's inching his way back into mania.  Soon he'll be up late modding ALPS leafs and building terminal keyboard protocol translators.

[Genkaz]

One more thing, what ghosting/rollover does model M have?

[ch_123]

2 key rollover, and the matrix is pretty good, you wont get many ghosting problems in most games.

It's hard to find a decent White Alps keyboard, and even then they're nowhere near as good a buckling spring. They're in between the buckling spring, and the Blue Cherry, which is light but somewhat plasticky.

[Rusty Rat]

rugged? Put it this way. You could bash ripster on the side of the head with it....

Would there be a tactile bump and what would the audible feedback be? something like Big Ben?

oh, and the keyboard would still work fine.

What about ripster?

[Genkaz]

One more thing, have you ever heard about anyone returning a Deck before? Am I being too hasty at returning it? Is 18 days enough to get used to a relatively tough MX blacks based mechanical keyboard with a smaller then average key surface area and a modified standard layout? (I moved to it directly from a rubber dome which was a Sidwinder X6) I am just kind of disappointed that I did not get along with that thing while it is an absolutely excellent keyboard.

I actually have absolutely no complaints about it other then the fact that my typing performance genuinely appears to be experiencing a decrease when I attempt to use it for such purposes.

It is absolutely excellent for gaming, and genuinely appears to be an overall extremely high quality product, probably one of the top ones when it comes to quality.

Does Deck legend have a wider key surface area then 82? Once again all of these are just curiosity questions.

[Genkaz]

Same keys on Legend and 82.
Cherry Blacks are known for not being very nice to type on.  Unless you are a German Nihilist.  I'd return it and get your money back.

Most likely what I will do.

[microsoft windows]

Originally Posted by wellington1869  
rugged? Put it this way. You could bash ripster on the side of the head with it....

Would there be a tactile bump and what would the audible feedback be? something like Big Ben?

What about ripster?

I bet there'd be a big tactile bump left on his thick head.

[ch_123]

[wellington1869]

probably there'd be an audible scream.

[ch_123]

We aim to please, as always.

[Scott]

4. Many individuals claim that model M's are virtually indestructible/incredibly durable, I would be very interesting in hearing  a few stories relating to this area of model M properties.

5. I would appreciate if a few individuals shared their personal experiences with that curious board, and whether they would recommend using buckling springs over MX blacks for genuinely dedicated gaming purposes (I am quite aware of the fact that buckling springs for the most part are much better then MX blacks for typing due to their tactile and clicky nature ( I am not sure about the clicky part.)

4. I believe some people have tried to smash a couple with a sledge hammer. They lived. (One of the three did eventually die, I think). But still, 500x more durable than today's electronics.

5. I bought an IBM Model M2. These boards are notorious for bad caps, as well as their general lack of quality. DO NOT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE I DID. Buy a Model M, they are much superior in quality.

[jpc]

Wait long enough and EVERY IBM Model M is going to need a nut/bolt mod.

They aren't time bombs. I used two unmodified model Ms for 14 years. Never abused them. Neither needs a rivet fix. One has its keys worn shiny too. Both are solid, smooth typing boards.

My guess is that rivets don't survive abuse, falls, or extreme temperatures too well.

[bigpook]

The plastic rivets are the achilles heal of the Model M. My last mini that I got had 22 broken rivets, and this was a NIB.
Anyways, I did the nut/bolt mod and all is well.

[jpc]

Rip are you a chemical engineer or something? "Plasticizer" is a new word to me, and I spent a summer working with Chem E's at a plastic factory, back in the day.

[Genkaz]

Is anyone aware of the exact Unicomp SpaceSaver dimensions, or how large it would be compared to a Dell AT101W? Also, I am assuming that it has similar reliability to a model M.

[Genkaz]

Dimensions for many keyboards are in the Keyboard Reference Wiki.

Thank you, I found it.

[Genkaz]

Yet another question: If buckling springs are most similar to White Alps, how are the buckling springs/White Alps compared to the Black Alps that Dell uses?

[bigpook]

The black alps are tactile, but not clicky.

I like to think of the black alps as a cheeseburger, and a BS key as a porterhouse steak. The white alps is more like a new york strip steak.

Sometimes, all I want is a cheeseburger. Until I feel like having a porterhouse....

[Genkaz]

The black alps are tactile, but not clicky.

I like to think of the black alps as a cheeseburger, and a BS key as a porterhouse steak. The white alps is more like a new york strip steak.

Sometimes, all I want is a cheeseburger. Until I feel like having a porterhouse....

I am originally not from America, I am also an absolute Neanderthal when it comes to stakes, therefore I would appreciate if you used different symbolism. I am familiar with cheeseburgers though.

[bigpook]

: ) no worries. Too bad about the steaks though; there is something about a porterhouse just sitting there on the plate in front of you. Good eats, satisfying. Kind of like the BS keys.
At this point, you have to be somewhat focused. The BS keys have alot of character to them. From the moment you press the key you can feel it all the way down and on the way back up. Along with the sound they make, it all adds up to a satisfying experience. Hence the porterhouse steak reference.
The black alps are very different, there isn't much noise, they aren't clicky and have a different feel to them. Is one better then the other?
Only you can decide that. I actually like the black alps, though for some reason they don't get a whole lot of love here. Are there better keys then the black alps? I guess, but again only you can make that determination.
Whats kind of nice is that NIB Dell AT101's pop up from time to time for a good price. So its not like you have to spend hundreds of dollars to try one out....Try getting a NIB IBM for a decent price, not likely to happen.

[Genkaz]

So far my plan is to get that model M from Ebay on Monday which I will then thoroughly test. If I find it to be too large of a keyboard (which is not impossible) but like the actual feel of it, then I will probably then focus my attention on the Unicomp SpaceSaver.

[bigpook]

So far my plan is to get that model M from Ebay on Monday which I will then thoroughly test. If I find it to be too large of a keyboard (which is not impossible) but like the actual feel of it, then I will probably then focus my attention on the Unicomp SpaceSaver.

The full-size Model M IS big. While the Unicomp Spacesave is a bit smaller, it still takes up a bit of space.I don't have any measurements handy though. I personally prefer the tenkeyless versions if only because they take up less desktop.

[Genkaz]

OP is Malaysian.  Therefore a better analogy would be .....

Sometimes you want Buckling Springs

Sometimes you want ALPS

I am Russian actually.

[Genkaz]

Oh.  Wrong thread.  Borscht and Chicken Soup then.  Whites are exciting borscht.  Blacks are bland chicken soup without even a Matzoh ball.

Thank you, that was a significantly better comparison to me. I certainly cannot wait to test the model M in this case, considering the fact that White Alps and BS appear to be quite similar as described earlier in the thread.

[wellington1869]

Thank you, that was a significantly better comparison to me. I certainly cannot wait to test the model M in this case, considering the fact that White Alps and BS appear to be quite similar as described earlier in the thread.

well, 'similar' only in the sense that both are old, loud, tactile, and meaty, in comparison to newer or lighter switches like cherries.
but bs/alps are also actually fairly different from each other. its all relative.

[Genkaz]

well, 'similar' only in the sense that both are old, loud, tactile, and meaty, in comparison to newer or lighter switches like cherries.
but bs/alps are also actually fairly different from each other. its all relative.

I am aware of the fact that quite often the computer world is a rather abstract location, I was mostly comparing them from the perspective of them being more similar to each other then other switches to buckling springs.