New TV: LCD vs. Plasma vs. ??

[Megaweapon]

Endurance is key to winning.

Which is why I am not enamored of plasma screen.  The simple fact is:  They get darker over time.  This is not acceptable to me.

Projectors:  Picture quality only exceeds that of similarly priced panel TVs on the extremely high end models.  Plus I have a small living room, so I don't need a 1200" TV.

Non-LED LCD:  Bad black levels.  Next!

Partial-LED LCD:  Bad black levels.  Next!

Full LED LCD w. local dimming:  This is where it's at right now, AFAICT.  It seems to have the price/performance locked up.

I am currently in the process of redoing my living room while I wait for the LG Infinia 55LE8500 to drop solidly below $2000.

My suggestion to someone shopping for a TV:  Just disregard everything related to 120Hz refresh and 3D.  You will waste a lot of time reading about this stuff only to discover that 120Hz can be turned off if you don't like it and 3D isn't ready for prime time.

[firestorm]

I haven't looked in a couple years, but AFAIK the typical "half life" (i.e. time before a display reaches half brightness) was around 100,000 (~30 years.)  That's the case with the Panny's anyway.  They fade no quicker than, perhaps less than, the old CRTs we were all accustomed to in the past.  LCD's generally have offered a comparable life span, with one distinct difference.  The rating is usually when you might expect the backlight to burn out altogether.  Personally, I doubt I would own a TV long enough to notice or encounter failure.  I don't run my plasma at full brightness either, so there is a fair number of years that loss of output could be accommodated.

[Rajagra]

3D isn't ready for prime time.

A little something to help you all decide.


Vrrshooom, vwooom, mwaaaaaoooohm,...


I think I'll pass for now.

[Megaweapon]

I haven't looked in a couple years, but AFAIK the typical "half life" (i.e. time before a display reaches half brightness) was around 100,000 (~30 years.)

Meanwhile, in the real world:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10462105-1.html

"According to our measurements, the models with 1,500 hours both reproduced black at 0.023 footlamberts; the 500-hour models measured 0.008."

They go on to establish that this is not just a measurable difference:

"In dark scenes from "The Dark Knight" on Blu-ray, the 500-hour V10 clearly displayed a darker shade of black than the 1,500-hour G10, leading to more-realistic reproduction of nighttime city-scapes in Chapters 2 and 8, for example, the rooftop parlay in Chapter 8, and the silhouette of Bruce Wayne as he enters the room in Chapter 18. The difference was also visible in letterbox bars, albeit less so, in numerous brighter scenes."

[a_fluffy_kitten]

Science has shown that this complex and contentious issue can be simplified down to this:

The TV you buy for your mom:  an LCD

The TV you buy for yourself: a Plasma

[instantkamera]

Meanwhile, in the real world:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10462105-1.html

"According to our measurements, the models with 1,500 hours both reproduced black at 0.023 footlamberts; the 500-hour models measured 0.008."

They go on to establish that this is not just a measurable difference:

"In dark scenes from "The Dark Knight" on Blu-ray, the 500-hour V10 clearly displayed a darker shade of black than the 1,500-hour G10, leading to more-realistic reproduction of nighttime city-scapes in Chapters 2 and 8, for example, the rooftop parlay in Chapter 8, and the silhouette of Bruce Wayne as he enters the room in Chapter 18. The difference was also visible in letterbox bars, albeit less so, in numerous brighter scenes."

dude, if you had any idea what you were reading you would realize that this is a test on the infamous "rising black levels" of panasonic's plasmas, which are said to lighten (the opposite of DARKEN) up to 3x their initial level. It is worth noting that the black levels will still be as good or better than the best competing LCD sets.

The main issue is their RAPID rise (as demonstrated, there was a huge difference after only 1500 hours, making the change somewhat noticeable). This issue has been fixed in the bulk of their sets as far as I (and cnet) know.

edit:

They still rise, just slower. again, the final resting point is still considered excellent in the LCD world.

[frvrngn]

I was wondering how long it would be until the Panny black level rising issue would come up...  I have a Panny plasma and the levels Did rise.  Quite dramatically too.  Dark scenes suddenly were not so dark.  

All that being said, I compared my TV next to my neighbors Toshiba Regza LCD (non LED) and I have to say that my levels were just as good, if not still better than his set which was only a month old.  Am I upset about the dramatic black level shift?  Yes.  I would be much happier if Panny owned up to it in the first place instead of blowing all of us off.  Now that they are being sued, I will be curious as to what happens.  Am I still happy with my picture quality?  Yes.  That really is the bottom line.  I would be really upset had I bought a KURO and this happened.  For the price I paid on my set, I really cant complain much (bought back when Bing was 30% off).  

The new CNET test is a little bothersome though.  If the new models are still doing this (Panny claims to have fixed the issue for new panels) then I would probably hesitate a little in buying a top of the line set from them.

[instantkamera]

The new CNET test is a little bothersome though.  If the new models are still doing this (Panny claims to have fixed the issue for new panels) then I would probably hesitate a little in buying a top of the line set from them.

That is not the new test.


THIS IS.

After about 1,650 hours of on-time logged on our TC-P50G20 review sample, and 920 on our TC-P50VT25, we have measured no loss in black level, or "minimum luminance level" (MLL) as the kids from a certain forum like to say. At the average daily rate of 5.2 hours of on-time per TV, that works out to about 318 and 177 days, respectively.
The 1,650-hour mark is somewhat significant because it's higher than the both the 1000 and 1500 hour marks after which, with Panasonic's 2009 plasmas, we measured losses.

That is why I said in my last post:

This issue has been fixed in the bulk of their sets as far as I (and cnet) know.

[frvrngn]

Ah, thanks for clarifying that.  At least Panny stepped up on the new sets.  Maybe something will come of the suit for us that have the old panels that have issues.  I would be happy with a credit of some sort towards a new panel if they have fixed the issue.  I could then move this TV to the play room or bedroom where the black levels dont matter as much.

[instantkamera]

good luck. Even the "fixed" panels rise, just far slower (and hopefully not as noticeably).

[instantkamera]

update: bought a panny 54" VT25 (their flagship model, yes it happens to be 3d).

Reasons for buying:

- TRUE motion resolution: Plasma in general trumps LCD in this aspect due to LCD's technological limitations when dealing with motion at a low frame rate (sample and hold). LCD's methods of dealing with this all result in undesirable artefacts etc.

- low input lag: I dont play a TON of games, but the ones I do play are "fast-twitch" type games, online FPS etc. This set has one of the lowest input lags of any model this year.

- 24p film cadence handling: This set handles 24p at 96hz. I watch a lot of film, so this was high on the list.

Known issues: Floating blacks, Rising black levels. Im not worried about the former until I really see it, which I never have (I have tested this TV extensively in varied conditions). The latter doesnt bother me either, since even after rising, they are likely to be on par with the next best competitor.

Other products I considered and why I didn't buy them:

- LG 60PK550 - nice big 60" set, gotten great reviews and is CHEEAP. Unfortunately suffers from: pour quality control (don't care, but it at BB and return it 4 times if you have to), reflections to the max (again, don't care, I have a true man-cave) and horrid input lag (deal breaker).

- Samsung PN 54 or 58C8000 - 58" is a nice size over 54", but is more expensive. Suffers from: buzzing (a deal breaker since I couldnt find one at a place that would allow returns w/o restocking fee, and buzzing seems to be a design flaw that is highly likely to occur). Poor customer service.

Since the panny was available at a good price, to took the plunge. Ill update with my findings when I take delivery.

[microsoft windows]

Get an old TV. They're cheaper.

[instantkamera]

brilliant idea, why didn't I think of that?? Oh yeah, the thread is titled "NEW TV ..." as in, "MW, keep your old, ****ty hardware to yourself".

[msiegel]

brilliant idea

hey, one man's old crappy tv is another man's new crappy tv

[RickyJ]

I've got a 42" Panasonic plasma, and if I didn't just read about the black level changing over time I'd probably never have noticed it.  I do know that when I first started using it I had to jack up the brightness on my PC and 360 because it was too dark.  However, after a few months I turned on my PC's HDMI output for the tv and saw that it wasn't super dark anymore.

Still the best TV I've ever seen (use 120Hz Samsung/Sharp LCD's at work).  Motion is pretty good (supposed to have all 1080 horizontal lines under motion), though I do get some ghosting from my 360.

[Pylon]

I was just about to post "dumpster dive an old 42" CRT" when I noticed that MS Windows posted pretty much the same thing.

They get thrown out all the time. I saw a reasonably sized non-flat Trinitron today on the curb today not too far from my house, and I see other ones all the time.

[godly_music]

I would buy a good LCD. Burn-in is just not something I wanna deal with, it's symptom of a technology that needs to be improved.

BUT.. actually I wouldn't buy a TV at all. Ever again. There's only ****e on TV. I can watch movies on my widescreen monitor.

[instantkamera]

I've got a 42" Panasonic plasma, and if I didn't just read about the black level changing over time I'd probably never have noticed it.  I do know that when I first started using it I had to jack up the brightness on my PC and 360 because it was too dark.  However, after a few months I turned on my PC's HDMI output for the tv and saw that it wasn't super dark anymore.

Still the best TV I've ever seen (use 120Hz Samsung/Sharp LCD's at work).  Motion is pretty good (supposed to have all 1080 horizontal lines under motion), though I do get some ghosting from my 360.

it's possible the ghosting is from phosphor lag (the VT series are supposed to have super fast phosphors. The appearance of motion blur is generally not on CRT/plasma UNLESS it is inherent in the source.

It's not generally recommended that you crank everything up on a plasma, even though burn-in is virtually a non-issue now, I have never heard of anyone needing to do this (unless they are in a super bright room, a place where plasmas admittedly do not "shine" - they arent as bad as some would have you believe though).

[instantkamera]

I was just about to post "dumpster dive an old 42" CRT" when I noticed that MS Windows posted pretty much the same thing.

They get thrown out all the time. I saw a reasonably sized non-flat Trinitron today on the curb today not too far from my house, and I see other ones all the time.

a) 42" is too small.
b) I have never seen a 42" trinitron, the biggest I know of is the 40xbr800, which is still a wicked TV and it is doubtful that people are straight up junking these in droves (since anyone that bought one knows the substantial investment the forked to get one, and likely understands that there is still a market for these in working order).
c) You dont "dumpster dive" a trinitron over 32" unless you travel in packs, or want a hernia. I just got rid of a 32" that weighed at least 125lbs (32" FD trinition).
d) If you are referring to CRT RPTV, **** that. They are garbage, so they can rightfully stay there, should I happen across one in a dumpster.

I would buy a good LCD. Burn-in is just not something I wanna deal with, it's symptom of a technology that needs to be improved.

BUT.. actually I wouldn't buy a TV at all. Ever again. There's only ****e on TV. I can watch movies on my widescreen monitor.

The technology HAS improved, burn-in is non issue.

What is the difference between a "TV" and a "monitor"? Today's televisions are hooked up to much more varied sources than traditional cable/sat/ota television broadcasts.

[Pylon]

a) 42" is too small.
b) I have never seen a 42" trinitron, the biggest I know of is the 40xbr800, which is still a wicked TV and it is doubtful that people are straight up junking these in droves (since anyone that bought one knows the substantial investment the forked to get one, and likely understands that there is still a market for these in working order).
c) You dont "dumpster dive" a trinitron over 32" unless you travel in packs, or want a hernia. I just got rid of a 32" that weighed at least 125lbs (32" FD trinition).
d) If you are referring to CRT RPTV, **** that. They are garbage, so they can rightfully stay there, should I happen across one in a dumpster.

The technology HAS improved, burn-in is non issue.

What is the difference between a "TV" and a "monitor"? Today's televisions are hooked up to much more varied sources than traditional cable/sat/ota television broadcasts.

You're right, I sorta exaggerated, but even 30-something inch CRTs are common out there. And I should've said "curb shop". The aforementioned Trinitron was around 30-inch. And I don't know how you'd haul it home. Pick-up truck?

[RickyJ]

it's possible the ghosting is from phosphor lag (the VT series are supposed to have super fast phosphors. The appearance of motion blur is generally not on CRT/plasma UNLESS it is inherent in the source.

It's not generally recommended that you crank everything up on a plasma, even though burn-in is virtually a non-issue now, I have never heard of anyone needing to do this (unless they are in a super bright room, a place where plasmas admittedly do not "shine" - they arent as bad as some would have you believe though).

TC-P42S1 is the model of my TV.  I didn't crank the brightness up that much actually, just a couple notches in games that were inherently dark.  Ghosting in games could very well be from the framerate dragging in my 360, I only really noticed it in certain games like Assassin's Creed 2 where it had to render huge draw distances from viewpoints.

[RoboKrikit]

The nice thing about dumpster diving for 42" CRTs: no diving involved. Just lift the lids; nothing else will fit. Then when you find it, you just push the dumpster home.

[instantkamera]

You're right, I sorta exaggerated, but even 30-something inch CRTs are common out there. And I should've said "curb shop". The aforementioned Trinitron was around 30-inch. And I don't know how you'd haul it home. Pick-up truck?

the 32" 4:3 FD trinny I sold not 6 months ago for $100 bucks fit into the back of a honda civic hatchback. Im pretty sure he didn't get it out in one piece. The minute he told me he was going to put it in there, I told him to pay up before we moved the TV, because if I got it down there and it DIDNT fit, that would be his tough luck.

[instantkamera]

The nice thing about dumpster diving for 42" CRTs: no diving involved. Just lift the lids; nothing else will fit. Then when you find it, you just push the dumpster home.

how do you get the dumpster up a flight of stairs?

[RoboKrikit]

how do you get the dumpster up a flight of stairs?

Just drop an extension cord down to the dumpster. You could save a lot on a sound system in such a small room. There might already be some egg cartons in there to soften the acoustics.

[instantkamera]

excellent idea.

[woody]

So is the plasma burn-in from constant picture still a problem, or they recover after a while (just a temporary memory)?

[instantkamera]

So is the plasma burn-in from constant picture still a problem, or they recover after a while (just a temporary memory)?

Excellent question, I shall use this opportunity to educate some folks (hopefully), and dispel some plasma myths.

Fact: Plasmas CAN suffer from some IR (image retention). This can be witnessed when leaving up any static content on-screen for a moderately long duration (few hours will do). Think TV station logos, or static heads-up displays in games. Since these common causes of IR are generally very localized (small areas of an overall large screen), they may or may not even be visible during viewing of other content.
The key is that this is NOT permanent, it disappears fairly quickly, when viewing other content.

Fact: IR is NOT BURN-IN. Burn-in is a completely different phenomenon, although it:

a) is triggered by the same behaviour (only much more extreme)
b) LOOKS exactly the same

Both of those are reasons why the myth of burn-in is so prevalent. Burn-in is (fairly) permanent because it is uneven wearing/aging of the phosphors (which comprise each pixel). This is bad, but it is also next to impossible to experience in a typical home viewing setup as this would require hundreds of hours of wear repeatedly on the same pixels (think airport depart/arrival screens).

IR on the other hand is caused by residual charge in the pixel (technically the plasma cells that comprise the pixel) which changes the luminance characteristics of the affected cells (and thus pixels). This goes away over a period of time depending on what those pixels are asked to display next.

The important thing to remember is that IR is NOT cumulative, so once the residual charge is discharged, it is gone. It has no impact or grounds in the wear of phosphors (which is what causes the permanent burn-in).

peace.

[microsoft windows]

You're right, I sorta exaggerated, but even 30-something inch CRTs are common out there. And I should've said "curb shop". The aforementioned Trinitron was around 30-inch. And I don't know how you'd haul it home. Pick-up truck?

Maybe a fork lift should do it.

[instantkamera]

And here is the beast:

[Brodie337]

Well, I work in retail, and sell these things for a living.

Plasma was terrible in the early days, but Panasonic has been developing them VERY intensively, and its reached the stage where alot of the old plasma pitfalls are gone. Other companies like Samsung are pushing the LEDs, so this doesn't really apply to their plasmas.

They use similar or less power than the equivalent size LCD (admittedly they cant match the LEDs), and even leaving them on one channel 8 or 9 hours a day on the shop floor, I've never seen any trace of image retention or burn in.

A note on power usage that alot of people don't know:
The energy ratings (at least in Australia) are based on the maximum possible power draw. While LCDs and LEDs sit fairly close to that maximum, plasma fluctuates alot, so the ratings look worse than they really are.

Probably the best case for plasma that I can present is that maybe two thirds of the staff at our store use Panasonic Plasmas.

I'd probably try to avoid LG. The reason being that when we did sell them, we'd get ALOT of them come back for warranty. Unlike most stores, mine doesn't pay commission, which is the reason most people love to sell LG. They had HUGE margins.

I hope thats informative!

Brodie.

EDIT: ****! Didn't read the whole thread, and it comes back to bite me in the arse!
You made the right choice I think.

[instantkamera]

A note on power usage that alot of people don't know:
The energy ratings (at least in Australia) are based on the maximum possible power draw. While LCDs and LEDs sit fairly close to that maximum, plasma fluctuates alot, so the ratings look worse than they really are.

that's the reason that plasma will loose a "bright white" contest with an LCD/LED, the ABL circuitry kicks in on a fully bright/white screen to cap power use, but this is also why plasma can have HUGE true contrast ratios with regular on-screen content.

EDIT: ****! Didn't read the whole thread, and it comes back to bite me in the arse!
You made the right choice I think.

I always do

[woody]

Thanks, instantkamera, for the plasma insights. That just confirms what I thought - the plasma technology has progressed a lot, and the image residue is reversible. Although I'd really like to see some estimates of wear time (let's say the time needed for a full bright pixel to reduce intensity down to 80%) and IR recovery time. Talking about Panasonic, they seem to be the only player left.

[instantkamera]

Thanks, instantkamera, for the plasma insights. That just confirms what I thought - the plasma technology has progressed a lot, and the image residue is reversible. Although I'd really like to see some estimates of wear time (let's say the time needed for a full bright pixel to reduce intensity down to 80%) and IR recovery time. Talking about Panasonic, they seem to be the only player left.

no problem. The discharge time of residual charge would likely vary with whatever content those cells are asked to create afterwards. I really dont know any further technical details on that. I think that the avg time to "erase" IR is around 1-2 hours judging by the experiences of others I have read.

Three players remain in the plasma market: LG, Samsung, Panasonic. Don't take that as a sign of anything, all three are quite well invested in making the panels. Panny acquired several Pioneer patents, and will likely be using those in the near future to improve the already great black levels etc.

[AndrewZorn]

EDIT so, you already got a TV.  Don't read this then, but I'll leave it in case anyone else is following.
Should have read the thread.

I'll chime in without reading the thread.

I recently went for LED BACK-lit (not edge) local-dimming LCD (47LH90).  After months I decided this was the best technology.

As much as I like plasma in theory:
- Burn-in IS still an issue.  I know the difference between it and IR, and no matter how many times people say it won't happen, cases still pop up.  Go read at AVSforum.  It isn't as bad as most make it out to be, but watch a lot of 2.35:1 content and you may start to see the effects.  I didn't want to have to worry about how I used my TV.
- Plasma manufacturers.  Panasonic is the only one I could consider.  Their (then-current, probably still current, G10/20, V25) line of displays has a serious problem that I could not look past: faked black levels.  Their displays are blackest (like, good plasma black) only for the first couple hundred hours.  Then the display gets brighter and brighter, as planned, so it will not kill itself like any other display would.  This is a programmed feature, not a mistake, and it sells TVs.  After the honeymoon period, you have worse blacks than a locally-dimmed LCD (which are pretty damned black).  Oh, and all the good black levels only happen when the screen is 100% black...  There are YouTube videos of a single white pixel raising the black level of the entire screen.  Again, check out AVSforum.

Even if you don't play games, I'd suggest looking at input lag too.  All the post-processing going on lately in most TVs means a ~100ms lag between video and audio.  The Panasonic plasmas are the best at avoiding this, too bad they had their other big flaw.  I finally found the 47LH90 which had very low lag (and at a very low price, it is an older model, but still better than any edge-lit LCD, and cheaper than any 2010 local-dimming).

If I could have secured a Kuro display for around $1500 I would have chose that instead, it is the way plasma should be.  But the current market forced me to go with what I consider an inferior technology... but hey, LC-LED-LCD is pretty nice too, my TV uses about the same amount of power as my LCD monitor.

[instantkamera]

EDIT so, you already got a TV.  Don't read this then, but I'll leave it in case anyone else is following.
Should have read the thread.

Yeah I covered every one of those points in this thread I think. Im a member at avsforum and have been for years.
In the end, someone would be doing themselves a grave disservice in finalizing a decision without trying the sets that interest them.

LCD happens to have flaws I can't get past, main one being motion, another being viewing angles. The LH90 IS a well liked set, if I recall, ChadB has it ranked very high. Im glad you like your set.

[AndrewZorn]

Good luck on your Panasonic as well.  The VT25 did seem in a league above the G20 (which was in the price range I was looking at) and I hear the issues there are not nearly what they are in the lower sets.  The VT25 does actually seem to reflect Panasonic's acquisition of Pioneer/Kuro technology.

[instantkamera]

Good luck on your Panasonic as well.  The VT25 did seem in a league above the G20 (which was in the price range I was looking at) and I hear the issues there are not nearly what they are in the lower sets.  The VT25 does actually seem to reflect Panasonic's acquisition of Pioneer/Kuro technology.

I get it tomorrow, so after I run the break-in slides, Ill post my initial impression. I think in the end, despite any flaws, it's going to be amazing. I mean, a full HDTV over 50" that can hang on the wall. If that's my biggest problem in life, Im doing ok.

[woody]

It will be interesting whether it will have change in blacks after the 1000 or so hours.

I did a thorough investigation of Panasonic models (Samsung and LG are on my blacklist), and I couldn't find a proper one for me. And I don't even watch TV.

That being said, is there a good device that has HDMI, component, composite, S-video, VGA inputs and converts them to DVI? If I could feed those inputs into a DVI monitor, I won't need TV at all.

[PAINKILLER]

That being said, is there a good device that has HDMI, component, composite, S-video, VGA inputs and converts them to DVI? If I could feed those inputs into a DVI monitor, I won't need TV at all.

Well... a PC. Add a capture card and whatever else you need and forget about TV sets for good. I replaced my old TV with a multipurpose HTPC (TV, Wi-Fi router, home server, general purpose PC). I can watch TV either online or via a DVB-T tuner. So if you already have a monitor that you like, you don't need to buy a separate machine that only adds functionality which you can easily and better add with a PC instead.

[firestorm]

That being said, is there a good device that has HDMI, component, composite, S-video, VGA inputs and converts them to DVI? If I could feed those inputs into a DVI monitor, I won't need TV at all.

Of course there is, but you may have to settle for an HDMI output.  HDMI and DVI are protocol compatible.  Aside from DVI not carrying audio, the only other difference is the connector.  The problem you may encounter is HDCP enabled content, as DVI doesn't conform to the HDCP standard

You could use a video switch with scaling or conversion.  Scalers or converters can be expensive though, and a large part of the market is commercial applications (i.e. incredibly expensive.)

Many newer A/V receivers have upscaling.  I don't think any of them are exactly cheap however.

Of course, if you're going to do this, you would likely get the best results from a 16:9 display with a 1920x1080 native resolution.  There shouldn't be an issue regardless, but being the cautious person I am, I would probably try connecting an HDMI source directly to the screen in question first.  An HDMI to DVI adapter or cable is relatively inexpensive, thus a small risk.

[woody]

I use a small TV with plethora of inputs for old consoles, computers, etc. That's what I'd like to replace with my main PC monitor, which has spare DVI input, but it seems the cost of an external scaler doesn't make it - the TV will continue serving it's purpose. I don't watch any TV on it.

About capture card - that will be too painful with Linux and will enforce dependency on the PC being turned on, and eventually crappy.

Thanks so far for suggestions.

[keyb_gr]

I'd probably try to avoid LG. The reason being that when we did sell them, we'd get ALOT of them come back for warranty.

They have a reputation for being nice RF interference sources, too. Big margins, huh?

Panasonic plasmas were bad several years ago, too, but it seems they wised up and now use a conductive mask or somesuch - you pretty much have to put a plasma panel in a Faraday cage, else it'll emit loads of RF garbage throughout the mediumwave and lower shortwave ranges (what do you expect hot ionized gas to do - besides, the circuitry required essentially is RF power stuff, too). Basically I don't listen to MW and 160m/80m in the evening when the TV is running (one of the known bad models maybe 7..8 m from the antenna), plasma buzzing isn't that enjoyable.

Of course even the older sets had a CE mark. Shows how inadequate EMI standards are (those effective here don't even test below 30 MHz, and only check for emissions into the mains, not so much the direct radiation characteristic for plasmas). Well, at least conformance is only considered an indication, so that if a device causes harmful interference or has problems with common RF levels, the manufacturer can be charged anyway.

When going to a store looking for a new TV, I'd always bring an AM/FM/SW portable along. That can serve as an indication of whether the beauty is more than just skin-deep.

[phillip]

you bought a panasonic vt25?  excellent choice

[woody]

I passed by a big Panasonic plasma in a shop today. By some chance, there was no input so the letters "HDMI1" were displayed as OSD in the upper left, with a small greyish rectangle behind. There was a lot of noise in this image - is this some anti-IR measure or "normal" for the set?

[microsoft windows]

A lot of TV systems use screen-savers, especially Plasma's and CRT's. That could be what it was.

[AndrewZorn]

I passed by a big Panasonic plasma in a shop today. By some chance, there was no input so the letters "HDMI1" were displayed as OSD in the upper left, with a small greyish rectangle behind. There was a lot of noise in this image - is this some anti-IR measure or "normal" for the set?

I'm not totally sure what you are describing, but plasma TVs do have visible noise when compared to other display technologies.

[CodeChef]

Did you already decide or can I spew Plasma-fanboyism all over this thread?

[AndrewZorn]

He already got a plasma.

[woody]

I'm not totally sure what you are describing, but plasma TVs do have visible noise when compared to other display technologies.

Yes, visible noise. In terrible quantities. I'll try to find some other static images in shops, just to check this.