Author Topic: Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes  (Read 25066 times)

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Offline jpc

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Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« on: Tue, 12 October 2010, 12:13:04 »
[h=1]Model M Rivet Replacement -- For Klutzes[/h]
This is yet another HOWTO about replacing the rivets on your IBM, Lexmark,
or Unicomp Model M with steel nuts and bolts. Aka the "Bolt Mod."

Thanks to both Sandy and Ripster who blazed this trail.

[h=2]Preface[/h]

[h=3]Why another document?[/h]

This document aims to keep you out of trouble, you klutz.

It covers some mistakes and how to recover from them or avoid them. It errs on the side of specifying things that might be common sense. The author has never had the firmest grasp of common sense.

[h=3]Why bolt mod?[/h]
The bolt mod replaces any lost rivets. Lost rivets can cause wonky, non-uniform key feel, and the bolt mod will fix that. A bolt-modded board should last for decades without disintegrating like a riveted board can.

The bolt mod grants you access to the membranes, springs, and hammers.

Springs with a few million keystrokes on them may feel stiff, stubborn, dull, or less-than-uniform. Worn key-tops are a good predictor of worn springs. The bolt mod allows you to replace old springs with perfect, uniform, lively new ones. Unicomp sells brand new springs and hammers.

Bolt modding is fun. If you like taking things apart and putting them back together, you'll enjoy it.

If a klutz like me can do it, so can you.

[h=3]Why not bolt mod?[/h]
You need a bunch of things. Mostly patience. It's a leisurely activity :D

Your board feels good right now. It has most of its rivets right now. It ain't broke. You can always mod it later.

An alternative is to drill out only the broken rivets and insert nuts and bolts in their place. You can use the same nuts, bolts, Dremel, Dremel chuck, and drill bit described here. This is fast and easy. It does not give you access to the internals.

[h=2]HOWTO[/h]

[h=3]You will need[/h]
* 5.5mm slim profile nut driver. You need this only to open the Model M's case. A 5.5mm socket from a socket set may not fit the narrow openings in the outside of the case. I used a Wiha 26555 which fits fine.
   * 2mm x 8 x .4 pan head bolts. Same as Ripster uses. You need 50 for a 1391401.
   * 2mm x .4 hex nuts. Ditto. And ditto.
   * 4mm socket. Any should do. I used one from a generic socket set.
   * a sharp chisel. If your chisel isn't razor sharp, get a sharpening stone and use it. Some brand new chisels aren't sharp!
   * 1/16" drill bit, Dremel, and a Dremel chuck (formally the "Dremel 4486 MultiPro Keyless Chuck".) Some Dremels come with the chuck, some don't.
   * work gloves
   * flat surface
   * A towel or a sheet of cardboard. You need a flat surface to support the board, which you could drill into or screw a bolt into without remorse.
   * a square or two of 100 grit sandpaper. 150 works too, you'll just spend more time sanding. 100 is about right.
   * something to suspend the board by its edges; two blocks of wood should work.

[h=3]Disassembly[/h]
Open the case. Set the case top and bottom aside. Set the case bolts aside.

Our guinea pig is a 1391401, manufactured 03AUG87:



It's safe to lie the board keys-side-down while the keys are attached. Once you remove those keys, it will NOT be safe, you would damage the springs.

To remove the controller, unbolt its grounding strap. Set aside the nut and bolt from the grounding strap.

Now there are three membrane ribbon connections to undo: one for the LEDs, and two for the key membranes. Undo these by gently rocking and wiggling them with your fingers until they come loose.

(I was initially nervous about damaging the contacts on the membranes while getting them into and out of the connectors. Five bolt mods later, it has never been a problem.)

Set the controller aside.



Lay the board over a towel to prevent damage to the keys. Find your chisel. Wear hand protection. That chisel is sharp. You will gouge either your glove or your skin, your call.

If your chisel's not sharp, sharpen it now. Nice clean cuts are better. Klutzy, sloppy cuts from a dull chisel can be fixed later with a bit more work. Ripster uses a razor sharp chisel.



Use a twisting motion to slice through each rivet. Don't stab at them.
Just hold the chisel up to each rivet and rotate the blade around the rivet
until you slice through. Ripster took this great photo of it, the concentric
abrasions on the backplate show the chisel motion:



Be CAREFUL! This is where you can slice your hand or other nearby items/people.

How NOT to be careful:



I sliced through four of the traces on one of the membrane tabs.
Luckily I had a spare membrane.

Leave one or two rivets near the center intact. Suspend the board
over a couple of blocks, so that the keys aren't pressed.
(You want the keys to be not pressed while you are removing the
backplate and membranes, to avoid damaging the springs and hammers.)

Slice off the last rivets.

Lift off the backplate -- it might need a little wiggling -- and
set it aside. If it doesn't come off easily, intact rivets might
be hiding under the sticker.

Lift off the membranes -- they might need a little help to detach
from gnarled studs -- and set them aside. The membranes
consist of three plastic sheets; two have traces and one does not.
During reassembly, these sheets MUST go back on in the
original order. So keep track of the order. One way is to never
separate the membranes in the first place.

Lift off the rubber sheet and set it aside.

Hammer time, break it down.



Now BEFORE you lift out the springs and hammers, and lose track of which
spring was beneath which key, ask yourself:

   * Does your M have a key that feels funny? Check if the spring is
     misshapen (not easy to fix) or if the spring is not seated all the
     way onto the hammer (which you can possibly with your fingernails.)
     Either way, that spring is a good candidate for retirement on
     the function row.

   * Do you want to keep track of which springs were under the most-
     frequently-used keys? When you rebuild later, you could place
     these springs on the function row.

Lift out the springs and hammers and set them aside.
Don't separate the hammers from the springs, there's no need,
in fact they are aligned precisely at the factory and you cannot
duplicate this alignment at home.
The springs are fragile, so be careful.

After removing all springs and hammers, all that remains are the
keys and the barrel plate.



Turn it right side up and remove the keys.

CAUTION-- The barrel plate may be fragile. Older barrel plates can crack
if they flex too far. While pulling the keys-- and whenever you are working on
the barrel plate by itself-- support the plate over a flat surface with a towel,
and just hold it flat. The board will flex a little when you pull the keys,
when you drill, and when you insert the bolts. A little flexing is okay.



Now only the barrel plate remains.



[h=3]Cleaning (optional)[/h]

This is a good opportunity to clean the keys or key-caps.

The Slow Way: soak them in warm water and dish soap for a while, then scrub each one with a toothbrush.

The Fast Way: place the keys into a bra bag or other sealable mesh bag, and run them in the dishwasher.

Dry them thoroughly before replacing them to avoid rusting the springs.

You have the same options for cleaning the case. Case tops can go through the dishwasher. The dishwasher could remove the birth certificate from a case bottom, so I wash the case bottom by hand with a minimal amount of soapy water and a toothbrush.

[h=3]Prep The Barrel Plate Before You Drill[/h]
This is the difference between a great result and a crappy result.

Prep work now will make the drilling go smoothly and ensure the final
assembled board has perfect key feel.

You have three goals at this step:

   1. Make the top of each stud flat. A flat surface is easy to drill into later.
       If you chiseled cleanly, it's already flat. Optionally, create a divot
       in the center top of each stud. Geekhacker bigpook suggests using
       a scratch awl for this.
       The divot will make it easier to guide the drill into the center of the stud.

   2. Sand off any debris that may be clinging to the tops or sides of the studs.
       Ripster doesn't report having debris, but I usually do.

   3. Do NOT, NOT, NOT remove or damage or sand the half-moon shaped
     raised structures that surround each stud. If you damage them you alter the
     geometry and feel of the buckling spring switches.

The spacing between the barrel plate and the backplate must be precise to have
ideal key feel. Small changes in the spacing can create noticeable distortions
in feel. Debris can increase the spacing; and removal of the half-moon shaped
spacers will reduce the spacing. So really, heed points #2 and #3.

Here's an AFTER PREP photo. See the tiny half-moons around each stud? Protect those with your life:



If you chiseled very well, you may already have something that looks like the after photo.

If you're a klutz ... if your chisel wasn't diamond-laser-ginsu sharp ... if you're
like me ... you may get messy "anvil-tops" seen in this BEFORE PREP image:



Another BEFORE view of anvil-top studs:



The anvil-top will get in the way when you reassemble the board later.
So remove it now. I sanded down just enough to peel off the anvil top and
flatten the top of the stud.

You want nice cylinders with flat tops like the AFTER photos.

Some studs will have slanted tops, in spite of your best efforts to chisel
cleanly. Sand these down just enough to flatten the top. It will be
easier to drill into a flat surface than a slanted or uneven surface.

Some studs might have broken at the base like the one in the center here:



In this case, don't sand. You would only damage
the half-moons. There's a crater where the stud was, with a nice
concave shape. You'll be able to drill into the center
of the crater without a problem.

Another AFTER photo showing off flat topped cylindrical studs and intact
half-moons:



All else equal, less sanding is better. Taller studs make it easier to align the
membranes when you reassemble.

[h=3]Drill[/h]
Find your dremel. Load up the dremel chuck and 1/16" drill bit.
Minimize wobble at the end of the bit if you can; play with it
until it's really centered.

You only need about 1/2" of drill bit exposed. Any more just
drills further into whatever surface is supporting the barrel
plate. It's no fun to get the bit choked in pulverized towel.

Ripster used the slowest speed on the dremel. So did I.

Before you drill, THINK:

   * If your Model M has metal stabilizers on the numpad + and Enter
     keys, DO NOT drill the three studs below those keys.
     Bolts in those locations will interfere with the stabilizers.
     This is an issue on the 1391401 used here.

   * If you have an M13 or an Endurapro or M5-1 or M5-2 -- anything
     with interesting features not found on a bog standard Model M --
     check whether you're about to drill through anything important.
     I don't have experience bolt-modding any of these so I simply
     don't know if there's a potential issue. If in doubt, look.
     UPDATE: There was no issue for an M5-1.

Finally, you're ready to drill straight down into the center of
each stud. This is a little tricky! I hold the Dremel with both hands
to keep it steady, and I brace my elbows on the work surface.

Use a bright work light, positioned where
you won't cast a shadow over your work. You'll get a better result
and curse less.

If the drill slips and mangles the top of the stud a bit, you can stop
and sand it flat again. You don't want to drill off-center and you don't
want to damage the half-moon structures.

(If you drill off-center, don't insert that bolt. It will be positioned
wrong and will get in the way of reassembling the board. Just
leave the bolt out for now. Later when the backplate and barrel
plate are bolted together, go back and drill the stud again.
This time you'll have the hole in the backplate to guide the drill bit.)

I did not drill the studs in the bottom row (the row in front of
the CTRL, SPACE, and ALT keys) because they're difficult
to put nuts and bolts onto. You don't need bolts there anyway.

After you drill, briefly sand each stud to clear off any debris.

After drilling and cleaning up:



[h=3]Bolts[/h]
Flip the board over. You'll insert bolts from the top side.

Optional: Push lightly into each hole with a philips head screwdriver.
This adds a bit of texture at the top of the hole and gives the
thread on the bolt something to bite into, so it's a little bit easier
to get the bolts started. Like this:



Start each bolt by hand:



I learned why you don't drill under the
metal-bar-stabilized numpad + and Enter keys. I put a hole right
through one of the tabs that holds the stabilizer:



Here's another angle:




The stabilizer still works fine, but I cannot insert any of
those three bolts, they would block the stabilizer. You're better
off not drilling them at all.

All the bolts are started...



Tighten them. An electric screwdriver helps. My cordless drill came
with a #2 drive philips head that was too large to fit these bolts. I bought a
smaller #1 drive philips head drill bit for $3 at the hardware store. It fits
and works well. If you plan to bolt mod multiple boards, spend the $3.

When tightening the bolts, consider sliding a sheet of cardboard underneath.
The towel's likely to shred a bit and leave bits of fabric stuck in half the
bolts that are difficult to remove (especially if you drive them with an
electric.)

All bolts inserted:



Double check for debris around the studs. It's
your last chance to remove anything that could separate the barrel plate
and backplate.



Optionally, this is a good time to wash the barrel plate in soap and warm water.

[h=3]Completely Remove One Particular Stud[/h]
Have a look at the membranes. Notice that most of the holes are
somewhat wider than the studs they will surround, so they will
fit easily over the studs at reassembly time.

Notice that one hole is barely wide enough to fit over the stud.
In fact it's NOT wide enough to fit over the stud,
because the stud got wider when you drove a bolt
through it. This will cause trouble during reassembly.

On this 1391401, the stud in question is this one:



You want to remove everything that's left of this stud.

This is one way: leave the bolt in place. Use the chisel to cut
around the base of the stud, in a circle. Then a twist of the pliers
will remove what's left of the stud. (FIXME, pic needed.) Check that there's really nothing left, chisel and pliers again as needed.

Don't remove the half-moon shaped spacers :D

That leaves only the bolt. The membrane will fit over the bolt
with no trouble.

[h=3]Rebuilding[/h]
With the board propped up on two blocks, reinsert the springs and hammers.

On a tenkeyful board, there will be three empty barrels where
you shouldn't insert a hammer. On a mini only one barrel will be empty.
Here are the three:



One empty barrel is under the spacebar and two are under the
numpad + and Enter.

With the springs and hammers in place, carefully lay down the rubber mat.
You don't want to disturb the springs and hammers, or knock
the board off the blocks. Careful careful. You want to seat the holes
in the mat around the studs, you don't want it to lie over the top
of the studs.

After the rubber mat, lay the membranes back into place, and tuck them down
over the studs. Once again, you want these to lie down over the studs,
not ride on top of them.

When the membranes are sitting neatly over the studs, you can check
and expect to see all bolts rise a uniform height above the membranes.
(((FIXME-- photo needed!)))
If you don't see that, lift off the membranes and figure out why they aren't
lying flat.

Position the metal backplate over the membranes.

Now at either end of the board, pull the barrel plate up to meet the
backplate with one hand. With your other hand, fasten a nut over one of the bolts.

Lifting up and pinching barrel plate and backplate together with one hand...


Repeat this process at the other end of the board. Now, you should see all the bolts
centered nicely in the holes of the backplate.

By the way. While you're positioning membranes and backplates
and nuts, you must keep the board face down, so that the hammers
and springs are held in place by gravity, and don't let the board slip off
the blocks
which would dislodge the hammers and springs when they
hit the table top.

Any time bare springs are facing downward, you could
damage them if you dropped the board. Careful!

Fasten about a third of the nuts, evenly distributed around the board.

Over-tightening is dangerous. Be conservative. I go 1/8 to 1/4 turn beyond
where the nut starts to grab the backplate.

Once about a third of the nuts are in place, you can turn the board right side
up and insert keys to ensure everything is clicking nicely. If it all sounds
and feels good, go ahead and put all the keys in.



Flip the board back over and fasten the remaining nuts.

Reattach the controller. Gently rock the membranes back into their connectors
with your fingers. Reattach the grounding strap. Place the assembly back into
the case.

On certain M units, seating the controller and seating the case-top
into the case-bottom is an art unto itself. You're smart,
you'll figure it out. :)

If the controller is wobbly, or if the seam between case top and bottom
isn't uniformly narrow, keep trying.

Reinsert the case bolts. Go find out if it works.
« Last Edit: Tue, 18 January 2011, 22:45:32 by jpc »

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline JBert

  • Posts: 1211
Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 15 October 2010, 17:20:15 »
This article is certainly useful, but I do wonder what it is doing in the wiki section...
IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

The storage list:
IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)


Currently ignored by: nobody?

Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.
[/SIZE]

Offline jpc

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 703
Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 15 October 2010, 17:50:44 »
I wanted everyone to be able to add Do's and Do-Nots as we learn more of them.

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline Ekaros

  • Posts: 1848
Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 29 October 2010, 20:07:05 »
Hmm, this is intresting, but I might pass before I get a few spare ones... And quite a lot of work...
So I should add something useless here yes? Ok, ok...
Filco 105-key NKRO MX Browns Sw/Fi-layout|IBM Model M 1394545 Lexmark 102-key Finnish-layout 1994-03-22|Cherry G80-3000LQCDE-2 with MX CLEAR
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Dell AT102W(105-key SF) (Black ALPS)|Steelseries Steelkeys 6G(MX Black) ISO-FI-layout|Cherry G84-4400 G84-4700 Cherry MLs

Offline shmithers

  • Posts: 40
Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 28 November 2010, 22:13:32 »
This is great, it will serve useful for my unicomp project. Does anyone know where I can find the nuts and bolts for this in British Columbia? I checked my Home Hardware, Home Depot, Rona, and ****s Lumber so far with no luck.

Thank you!

Offline ironman31

  • Posts: 1707
Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 29 November 2010, 09:02:22 »
The only problem I had with this mod was not being careful when putting the mat and membranes back on, a couple springs got misalligned and I didn't noticed until all the nuts were screwed on.
Keyboards:
IBM Model M Space Saving Keyboard (Used), HHKB Pro 2 (White, Lettered), Realforce 87U all-45g in White, Filco Majestouch 2 TKL with Cherry MX Browns, Model F PC/ATNoppoo Choc Mini (MX Browns), Model F XT, IBM Model M 1397735 (bought NIB), (2) Siig Minitouch (GHSS) one with XM, one with complicated ALPs (modded),2 Dell AT101W, Cherry G80-11900HRMUS (modded with MX browns)



Pointing Devices:
Logitech G500, Evoluent VerticalMouse 3, Logitech G5, CST 2545W, Microsoft IntelliMouse Trackball, Logitech M570, Logitech MX revolution


Offline Shawn Stanford

  • Posts: 694
Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 29 November 2010, 14:09:13 »
I was also unable to find nuts and bolts at my local Lowe's. Internets here I come...
The Brat Prince of COBOL

Offline msiegel

  • Posts: 2046
Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 29 November 2010, 15:00:44 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;253930
nuts and bolts


i did a bolt mod on a mini using parts from these guys. beautiful packing and labeling job on the parts :)

http://www.microfasteners.com/

Filco Zero (Fukka) AEKII sliders and keycaps * Filco Tenkeyless MX brown * IBM F/AT parts: modding
Model F Mod Log * Open Source Generic keyboard controller

Offline shmithers

  • Posts: 40
Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 29 November 2010, 15:35:41 »
Thanks for the suggestions. I am planning on ordering from McMaster Carr. I can't seem to find 2.5mm washers on the site though. Would 2.2 or 2.7mm washers work?  http://www.mcmaster.com/#washers/=9xm9zc

Thank you again!

Offline ironman31

  • Posts: 1707
Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 30 November 2010, 17:35:57 »
I found that the screws I ordered from McMaster Carr (edit:)crossthread incredibly easily. (I was using a small hand screw driver, and I wasn't overly aggressive with it)
« Last Edit: Tue, 30 November 2010, 18:18:08 by ironman31 »
Keyboards:
IBM Model M Space Saving Keyboard (Used), HHKB Pro 2 (White, Lettered), Realforce 87U all-45g in White, Filco Majestouch 2 TKL with Cherry MX Browns, Model F PC/ATNoppoo Choc Mini (MX Browns), Model F XT, IBM Model M 1397735 (bought NIB), (2) Siig Minitouch (GHSS) one with XM, one with complicated ALPs (modded),2 Dell AT101W, Cherry G80-11900HRMUS (modded with MX browns)



Pointing Devices:
Logitech G500, Evoluent VerticalMouse 3, Logitech G5, CST 2545W, Microsoft IntelliMouse Trackball, Logitech M570, Logitech MX revolution


Offline jpc

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 703
Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 30 November 2010, 17:42:02 »
Quote from: ironman31;254600
I found that the screws I ordered from McMaster Carr strip incredibly easily. (I was using a small hand screw driver, and I wasn't overly aggressive with it)


Huh. I never saw that. Are you sure the screw driver is a philips head #1 drive?

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline ironman31

  • Posts: 1707
Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 30 November 2010, 17:43:41 »
Whatever it was that you linked in your bolt mod thread. I had about 5-6 crossthread on me, and I made sure the nuts were going on straight. I think it might have to do with the washers, a majority of the ones that crossthreaded were when using with washers on the front edge, and the lip could have pushed up at an angle, causing it to not go on as straight.
Keyboards:
IBM Model M Space Saving Keyboard (Used), HHKB Pro 2 (White, Lettered), Realforce 87U all-45g in White, Filco Majestouch 2 TKL with Cherry MX Browns, Model F PC/ATNoppoo Choc Mini (MX Browns), Model F XT, IBM Model M 1397735 (bought NIB), (2) Siig Minitouch (GHSS) one with XM, one with complicated ALPs (modded),2 Dell AT101W, Cherry G80-11900HRMUS (modded with MX browns)



Pointing Devices:
Logitech G500, Evoluent VerticalMouse 3, Logitech G5, CST 2545W, Microsoft IntelliMouse Trackball, Logitech M570, Logitech MX revolution


Offline jpc

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 703
Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 30 November 2010, 17:49:28 »
Oh you mean the threads stripped? I saw that a few times too. Sometimes just swapping for a different nut was enough to get things working again, but there were times when I had to back out a bad bolt. Maybe once per board. I didn't use washers and I didn't bolt the front row.

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline ironman31

  • Posts: 1707
Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 30 November 2010, 18:17:09 »
Quote from: jpc;254603
Huh. I never saw that. Are you sure the screw driver is a philips head #1 drive?


My bad, I meant cross thread
Keyboards:
IBM Model M Space Saving Keyboard (Used), HHKB Pro 2 (White, Lettered), Realforce 87U all-45g in White, Filco Majestouch 2 TKL with Cherry MX Browns, Model F PC/ATNoppoo Choc Mini (MX Browns), Model F XT, IBM Model M 1397735 (bought NIB), (2) Siig Minitouch (GHSS) one with XM, one with complicated ALPs (modded),2 Dell AT101W, Cherry G80-11900HRMUS (modded with MX browns)



Pointing Devices:
Logitech G500, Evoluent VerticalMouse 3, Logitech G5, CST 2545W, Microsoft IntelliMouse Trackball, Logitech M570, Logitech MX revolution


Offline wanabe

  • Posts: 501
  • Location: San Francisco, CA USA
Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 16 January 2011, 21:28:19 »
Quote from: ironman31;254605
I had about 5-6 crossthread on me, and I made sure the nuts were going on straight.

Just finished putting together my full size M after this mod and i had the same problem with the screws.  I bought the same ones that were linked on the original post, and about 5 of them ended up cross threaded.

I modded my full size M for practice for my space saver, which actually needs a rivet replacement.  I think the only thing that I'd change is to put some loctite blue on the bolts, i don't have complete confidence that the nuts won't come loose easily after some heavy use.

Edit:  oh and thanks for those who have contributed to this wiki.  With the instructions it was pretty smooth sailing except that some of the holes that I drilled were a little bit off.  It ended up coming together just fine, but that's definitely something that I can improve on
« Last Edit: Sun, 16 January 2011, 21:31:27 by wanabe »

Offline theferenc

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Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 18 January 2011, 20:20:26 »
Just to add my two cents, this guide was spot on. I definitely wasn't as careful as I should have been, and drilled quite a few off center, but in the end, it didn't seem to matter.

The biggest problem I had was that it didn't seem that the barrel plate and the metal plate wanted to fit together properly, and some of the screws just didn't seem to be long enough to properly lock in plate with a nut.

Definitely changes the feel of this keyboard though. I did it to an '89 '1401 that still had stabilizers on the numpad, though interestingly, when I drilled the studs over there, there was no problem with the stabilizer holder thingies. Makes me wonder how many different stud designs there are.

Also, ripster, thanks for the international mini mod. I was able to turn my M into a true UNIX keyboard. I'll also be posting over on that thread as well.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
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Offline jpc

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« Reply #16 on: Tue, 18 January 2011, 21:08:46 »
Quote from: theferenc;280766

Definitely changes the feel of this keyboard though. I did it to an '89 '1401 that still had stabilizers on the numpad, though interestingly, when I drilled the studs over there, there was no problem with the stabilizer holder thingies. Makes me wonder how many different stud designs there are.


I have seen exactly the same stud pattern on every full size Model M I've ever taken apart, and also in pictures of the current Unicomp Customizer. The SSK is the same pattern, minus numpad. To my knowledge there's only one basic pattern.

(I don't know about a 122-key Model M though.)

Glad it worked for you.

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline jpc

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« Reply #17 on: Tue, 18 January 2011, 21:11:55 »
If you strip a bolt, I think it helps to clean the tiny metal debris off the end of the drill bit. This can't hurt anyway. My guess is that if you leave the debris there, it can cause the next bolt to strip also.

Also, going no faster than you need to on the electric screwdriver helps. I am using a variable-speed electric drill, on a lowish speed (it's an analog control) and with the chuck set to release at its lowest torque setting. Easy does it...

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline theferenc

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« Reply #18 on: Tue, 18 January 2011, 21:33:31 »
That's how I did mine, and nothing got stripped. Interestingly though, I had it set to the minimum torque setting (I can hold it still with the drill fully on at that setting), and the screws never caught enough to engage the torque release.

Everything seems to have worked though. There are a couple of screws with no nuts on them, because the nut wouldn't engage as the screw was too short, but it seems to be fine. I thought that was strange, but the screws were in as far as they could go, and there were no studs left to speak of. Nearly ALL of them snapped off at the base.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline jpc

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« Reply #19 on: Tue, 18 January 2011, 22:10:30 »
That's strange that the nuts wouldn't engage.

With bolts of uniform 8mm length, they should all rise a uniform height above the metal plate if there are no obstructions, e.g., wrinkles in the rubber mat, plastic debris.

Another possible cause is this, from the original article:

Quote
Most of the openings in the membranes are somewhat wider than the original
studs and so they will fit easily without much precision required. EXCEPT!
On this 1391401, the membranes have one hole that is a tight fit
over the stud. This one:

Show Image


I had to use the chisel to remove what was left of the stud
before the membranes would sit down flat.


This needs a picture showing the removal of the stud. I leave the bolt on, cut around the foot of the stud with the chisel, and then twist the stud with a pair of pliers. It usually pops right off, and then the membranes will sit nice and flat without any particular coercion.

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline jpc

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« Reply #20 on: Tue, 18 January 2011, 22:32:38 »
Edited the OP to describe the one stud that requires special care, here

Sorry that wasn't more explicit before, I was still learning about how to handle this stud when the guide first went up.

@theferenc, is this one of the studs that would not bite a nut?

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline theferenc

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« Reply #21 on: Tue, 18 January 2011, 23:56:24 »
Actually, that was one that had snapped off at the base, and it went on just fine. I should just take a picture and show you tomorrow when I'm in my office.

It was some near that one, a couple near the bottom right edge, and I think one near the top? There are about a half dozen total rivets (other than ones you say not to bolt) that either have no nuts, or no bolts. Possibly a few more.

I thought it was really strange. I ordered from mcmaster-carr, they came in a bag, and I used them. I had to put a LOT of pressure on the board in some places to get the bolts long enough to engage the nuts. I also didn't tighten them down all the way, just enough to stay in place. I should probably tighten them a bit more, but that would require holding the bolt steady, as they are all spinning already.

Maybe my drill bit was a bit wobbly without me noticing it, as the holes might be a touch too large.

Anyway, it worked in the end, and I'm super happy with the result. Hopefully the next one that I do will come out more cleanly. I have one more model m, after giving most of them away, and I think I will try and turn it into the same UNIX layout as all my other keyboards.

jpc, if you do happen to go see your dealer for more $10 Model Ms, would it be possible to bolt mod one, but replace the backspace key with 2 keys (along with a spring and hammer in place of the stabilizer)? I would happily pay a fair price for such a beast. I could even provide the keys, keycaps, and spring/hammer you would need to do it, if you prefer.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
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Offline jpc

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« Reply #22 on: Wed, 19 January 2011, 12:03:41 »
Quote from: theferenc;280859

I thought it was really strange. ...  I had to put a LOT of pressure on the board in some places to get the bolts long enough to engage the nuts.


That is really strange, I've never seen this.

Is the metal plate extra-extra-thick? That can influence the amount of room that's left for the nut. The thickest metal plate I've seen was the 1390131 sold to kidchunks -- and there was still plenty of room.

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline theferenc

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« Reply #23 on: Wed, 19 January 2011, 15:48:39 »
It's definitely the thickest one I've got. There is a clear weight difference between it and my other '1401 Model Ms. And when I say clear weight difference, I mean it is quite obviously heavier than the others. Almost shockingly so.

Like I said though, the barrel plate was clearly a bit different from the ones you've done, as the number pad rivets weren't even close to the stabilizer supports, but there was one immediately adjacent to the stabilizer bar itself, but it wasn't in the way at all.

It's quite possible it's an issue with the barrel plate, as it wasn't as curved as I expected it to be, honestly. Which might account for the necessary pressure.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline steeef

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« Reply #24 on: Thu, 20 January 2011, 19:28:02 »
Man, I've got two Model M's I've been meaning to do this on, I just have to get the parts. I opened one of them only to have about a third of the rivets fall to the floor.
Cherry MX Blue: Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless. Cherry MX Black: TG3 KBA-BLTD-5RBUVS (Police Cruiser keyboard). Cherry MX Clear: KBC Poker (modded with Ergo Clears) Cherry MX Brown: Goldtouch GTC-077 USB numpad. Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1391401 (1989-01-03 and 1991-11-21).

Offline jpc

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« Reply #25 on: Thu, 20 January 2011, 23:23:15 »
@theferenc:

Okay, this is weird. This just happened to me, does it sound familiar to you? I was bolt modding that '88 1391401 we talked about when three unusual things happened...

 1- Most of the rivets went flying all over. I could have used some safety goggles.
 2- While drilling, the plastic kept melting. Each time it started to melt, I stopped to let it cool and clean the goo from the drill bit. So it took longer to drill than normal. With the melting, some of the studs distorted. (The melting was localized enough that none of the half-moons were affected.)
 3- When I reassembled, some of the nuts wouldn't bite, because the barrel plate and metal plate weren't closing together nicely.

This barrel plate has a lower melting point than I'd seen before.

I think that the rubber mat didn't fit nicely over the distorted studs, and so the whole sandwich wouldn't assemble tightly. Really it should all fit together with minimal force.

So I opened it back up and, with chisel and pliers, hacked off the remainder of any remaining studs; only about 15 of them hadn't broken off at the base to begin with. Then the whole assembly sandwiched together easily, and all the bolts come up a uniform distance through all the nuts. It looks, feels, and sounds perfect.

If you remove the remnants of the studs from your bolt-modded board, you might be able to assemble it tightly and uniformly and have every nut bite. And ... let me know if you're still interested in this one. :)

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline theferenc

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« Reply #26 on: Fri, 21 January 2011, 01:33:59 »
That is EXACTLY what happened to me. It was a brown barrel plate, wasn't it? When I was drilling them, it would be going in, and then it would sort of *pop*, and it would be clearly melted a bit. For reference, mine was from January 1989. Maybe it was just a run of bad barrel plates?

I found that running the bit (with the dremel on high) against the edge of the cardboard box I was using as a table worked wonders to clear the melted plastic. Just drag the bit along the corner. Hopefully that makes sense.

Maybe I will disassemble the one I did, and see if that fixes it.

Anyway, as I mentioned via PM, yes, I am definitely still interested. It never hurts to have a backup keyboard, especially since they are all in different places.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline jpc

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« Reply #27 on: Fri, 21 January 2011, 07:51:05 »
OK, it seems that some barrel plates have a lower melting point. (ABS?) I'd not seen one melt before yesterday. Gotta update the OP for that.

Here's the result:


RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline theferenc

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« Reply #28 on: Fri, 21 January 2011, 13:31:54 »
So, I checked. My brown barreled 1989 was the one I did. Brand new bit. Melty plastic. Then, to check ripster's idea, I drilled out a few studs on the barrel plate of a 1987 terminal keyboard, with a black barrel plate.

The second time, the holes were perfect. Smooth, centered, no melting at all.

If this was the opposite direction, I would say it might be the bit. It is not the bit. It is definitely the plastic.

I'm really betting there was a short span of time in 1988-1989 where the plastic was different. I could be wrong, but my experiments support this conclusion.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline jpc

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« Reply #29 on: Fri, 21 January 2011, 13:42:00 »
The brownish drab barrel plate is definitely a different material. It sounds different when you tap on it and when you flex it. It melts and it takes a while longer for the drill bit to bite into it. I seen it with my own eyes.

The PLT code must stand for "plastic liquifying temperature"...

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline crowstar

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« Reply #30 on: Fri, 08 April 2011, 16:18:01 »
Hey, does the half moon thing really matter? On sandys original page he destroyed some, as long as two aren't destroyed on the same hole, will it be fine? Im really worried now.

Offline jpc

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« Reply #31 on: Fri, 08 April 2011, 17:03:51 »
It's probably fine as long as both aren't destroyed for the same rivet, yes.

If you destroy both, the spacing between the metal plate and barrel plate will be less than normal, and the key feel will become very stiff.

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline Half-Saint

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« Reply #32 on: Wed, 08 June 2011, 04:14:30 »
OK, several questions. I have this Model M Mini that nees a bolt mod. I already disassembled the keyboard and cut the rivets off.
1. rubber mat is real dirty - can I wash it?
2. can I wash the membranes? water? alcohol?
3. is it better to remove the studs completely or partially
4. what's an european equivalent of a 1/16" drill bit? :D

Cheers
IBM Model M (6) - Acer Alcatel 6312-KW - IBM Model M Space Saver - IBM Model M 122-key - Cherry G80-3000 (2) - IBM Model F AT - TG3 BL82A (2)

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Offline TacticalCoder

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« Reply #33 on: Wed, 08 June 2011, 07:11:33 »
Quote from: Half-Saint;357242
3. is it better to remove the studs completely or partially
4. what's an european equivalent of a 1/16" drill bit?

 
Hey Half-Saint,

I may too, one of these days, try a bolt mod.  Can you take a few pictures and notes to add to some wiki (like the european size drill etc.) if you get the time and report what worked and what didn't?
HHKB Pro JP (daily driver) -- HHKB Pro 2 -- Industrial IBM Model M 1395240-- NIB Cherry MX 5000 - IBM Model M 1391412 (Swiss QWERTZ) -- IBM Model M 1391403 (German QWERTZ) * 2 -- IBM Model M Ambra -- Black IBM Model M M13 -- IBM Model M 1391401 -- IBM Model M 139? ? ? *2 -- Dell AT102W -- Ergo (split) SmartBoard (white ALPS apparently)

Offline Daniel Beaver

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« Reply #34 on: Wed, 08 June 2011, 09:00:10 »
Quote
1. rubber mat is real dirty - can I wash it?

Of course, and you should. Just use soap and water.

Quote
2. can I wash the membranes? water? alcohol?

Either works, though I just use soap and water. Be sure to dry it well if you go that route.

Quote
3. is it better to remove the studs completely or partially

I'm a fan of partial stud removal. Specifically, I leave enough of a stud on the face plate so that they stick partway into the holes on the backplate when I reassemble it. It is a lot easier to get everything aligned if you do it that way. You do have to be vigilant about de-burring if you go this route.

Removing them entirely is not "wrong", but I personally think it is a bad approach.


Quote
4. what's an european equivalent of a 1/16" drill bit? :D

They are not quite equivalent. 1.60 is ever so slightly bigger, 1.50 is somewhat smaller. Try both.

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Offline Half-Saint

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« Reply #35 on: Fri, 10 June 2011, 12:49:43 »
Just picked up a set of three 1.6mm proxxon drill bits. I'll report back..
IBM Model M (6) - Acer Alcatel 6312-KW - IBM Model M Space Saver - IBM Model M 122-key - Cherry G80-3000 (2) - IBM Model F AT - TG3 BL82A (2)

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Offline Half-Saint

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« Reply #36 on: Wed, 15 June 2011, 02:18:15 »
Well, just finished drilling the holes with an european 1.6mm drill bit. Most of the holes are actually a bit off center. I don't know how the hell you guys get your centered, I found this close to impossible. However, I did leave all the little nubs in place where the rivets used to be. I'm still waiting for the screws & nuts to arrive. Will keep you posted.
IBM Model M (6) - Acer Alcatel 6312-KW - IBM Model M Space Saver - IBM Model M 122-key - Cherry G80-3000 (2) - IBM Model F AT - TG3 BL82A (2)

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Offline TacticalCoder

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« Reply #37 on: Wed, 15 June 2011, 02:49:36 »
Quote from: Half-Saint;360999
Well, just finished drilling the holes with an european 1.6mm drill bit. Most of the holes are actually a bit off center. I don't know how the hell you guys get your centered, I found this close to impossible. However, I did leave all the little nubs in place where the rivets used to be. I'm still waiting for the screws & nuts to arrive. Will keep you posted.

 
They're a bit offcenter but are they straight vertically? (that is: offcenter the same amount from top to botton)

Are you taking pics in the process?
HHKB Pro JP (daily driver) -- HHKB Pro 2 -- Industrial IBM Model M 1395240-- NIB Cherry MX 5000 - IBM Model M 1391412 (Swiss QWERTZ) -- IBM Model M 1391403 (German QWERTZ) * 2 -- IBM Model M Ambra -- Black IBM Model M M13 -- IBM Model M 1391401 -- IBM Model M 139? ? ? *2 -- Dell AT102W -- Ergo (split) SmartBoard (white ALPS apparently)

Offline Half-Saint

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« Reply #38 on: Wed, 15 June 2011, 03:30:46 »
Yes, they are straight vertically. I used a drill stand to make sure of that :)

http://www.amazon.com/Proxxon-28606-MICROMOT-Drill-Stand/dp/B000209ZAE

No pics so far. Everything I did can be explained with words and by looking at OP's pictures :)
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 June 2011, 07:54:12 by Half-Saint »
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Offline TacticalCoder

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« Reply #39 on: Wed, 15 June 2011, 12:43:58 »
Quote from: Half-Saint;361004
Yes, they are straight vertically. I used a drill stand to make sure of that :)No pics so far. Everything I did can be explained with words and by looking at OP's pictures :)


Ah ah but although my english is okay I've got issue following discussion with vocabulary specific to a domain I don't know: "drill stand", "stud", "de-burring", etc.  I mean, seriously, I need to "Google image" on nearly all these terms so with pics it becomes much clearer : )

OK, regarding the drill stand: as to not be offcenter, wouldn't it be easier to first drill with a smaller drill bit, then only use the 1.6mm later on?  Could that help be more centered?

And anyway: is it an issue that they're slightly offcenter?
HHKB Pro JP (daily driver) -- HHKB Pro 2 -- Industrial IBM Model M 1395240-- NIB Cherry MX 5000 - IBM Model M 1391412 (Swiss QWERTZ) -- IBM Model M 1391403 (German QWERTZ) * 2 -- IBM Model M Ambra -- Black IBM Model M M13 -- IBM Model M 1391401 -- IBM Model M 139? ? ? *2 -- Dell AT102W -- Ergo (split) SmartBoard (white ALPS apparently)

Offline Half-Saint

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« Reply #40 on: Wed, 15 June 2011, 15:45:05 »
Quote from: TacticalCoder;361216
OK, regarding the drill stand: as to not be offcenter, wouldn't it be easier to first drill with a smaller drill bit, then only use the 1.6mm later on?  Could that help be more centered?

I'm using a high speed Proxxon IB/E rotary tool and it gets the job done. Recommended speed for soft materials such as plastic was between 5000 and 8000 rpm - I went for 6000 rpm. Hole edges are perfectly smooth. The only problem for me was centering because all I used were my eyeballs :) Since the drill bit is sharp at the busy end, I couldn't really be sure whether it was centered or not until after the hole was drilled.

Quote from: TacticalCoder;361216
And anyway: is it an issue that they're slightly offcenter?

Don't know but I'll find out soon :)
IBM Model M (6) - Acer Alcatel 6312-KW - IBM Model M Space Saver - IBM Model M 122-key - Cherry G80-3000 (2) - IBM Model F AT - TG3 BL82A (2)

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Offline xwhatsit

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« Reply #41 on: Wed, 15 June 2011, 16:38:48 »
Quote from: Half-Saint;360999
Well, just finished drilling the holes with an european 1.6mm drill bit.

 
What's the difference between a European 1.6mm drill bit and a rest-of-the-world 1.6mm drill bit? :P
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Offline Half-Saint

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« Reply #42 on: Thu, 16 June 2011, 06:33:10 »
Problem: I re-assembled the board using minimum number of bolts (Ripster press) but the board doesn't work. No key presses are registered. Suggestions?
IBM Model M (6) - Acer Alcatel 6312-KW - IBM Model M Space Saver - IBM Model M 122-key - Cherry G80-3000 (2) - IBM Model F AT - TG3 BL82A (2)

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Offline Half-Saint

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Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 16 June 2011, 15:04:52 »
I put everything apart to check membrane alignments but it looked okay so I put it all back together from scratch and it still doesn't work. I tested the PCB with another board and it's fine.

How can you be sure that you installed the membranes right under the hammers? Does a few milimeters offset make a difference? I noticed that there is one hole in the membrane that's exactly as wide as the protruding screw, so basically everything aligns according to that one hole.

Once more, help! I don't want to spend days doing this :)

Also is this the correct order and does it make any difference, if you order the membranes differently:
1. barrel assembly
2. rubber sheet
3. membrane w/ wide connector
4. transparent membrane
5. membrane w/ narrow connector
6. metal plate
« Last Edit: Thu, 16 June 2011, 15:10:05 by Half-Saint »
IBM Model M (6) - Acer Alcatel 6312-KW - IBM Model M Space Saver - IBM Model M 122-key - Cherry G80-3000 (2) - IBM Model F AT - TG3 BL82A (2)

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Offline TacticalCoder

  • Posts: 466
Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #44 on: Thu, 16 June 2011, 15:44:41 »
Quote from: Half-Saint;361919
Once more, help!


+1 all help Half-Saint...  Then he'll be able to help me when I try the bolt mod too : )
HHKB Pro JP (daily driver) -- HHKB Pro 2 -- Industrial IBM Model M 1395240-- NIB Cherry MX 5000 - IBM Model M 1391412 (Swiss QWERTZ) -- IBM Model M 1391403 (German QWERTZ) * 2 -- IBM Model M Ambra -- Black IBM Model M M13 -- IBM Model M 1391401 -- IBM Model M 139? ? ? *2 -- Dell AT102W -- Ergo (split) SmartBoard (white ALPS apparently)

Offline Half-Saint

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Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #45 on: Fri, 17 June 2011, 00:07:02 »
Ripster: I checked three different guides including yours on how to do it and nowhere does it say "if you do this, your keyboard will not function at all". Also, you haven't answered any of my questions :P

I did everything by the book and had no problems reassembling. What else can I do? Is it possible to test the membranes on a PC without the barrel assembly etc.?
IBM Model M (6) - Acer Alcatel 6312-KW - IBM Model M Space Saver - IBM Model M 122-key - Cherry G80-3000 (2) - IBM Model F AT - TG3 BL82A (2)

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Offline TacticalCoder

  • Posts: 466
Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #46 on: Fri, 17 June 2011, 06:41:56 »
Quote from: Half-Saint;362192
Is it possible to test the membranes on a PC without the barrel assembly etc.?

Well I know that you can test disassembling/re-assembling without putting all the springs/hammers back in place: on a Model M if you use, say, a screwdriver and gently put it  through the hole of an unused key it shall make the key register: for example, if on a QWERTY ISO board you do this were the " | / " key is on a QWERTY ANSI board (i.e. above the horizontal ENTER) then the key shall register, even though there's no spring and no hammer at that place on an ISO board.

So I take that if you run into issues, you can test your re-assembly by not putting every single spring/hammer back into place which may save you time seen that obviously you're losing time disassembling/re-assembling everything and that the wikis aren't very helpful regarding that specific problem you're having.
HHKB Pro JP (daily driver) -- HHKB Pro 2 -- Industrial IBM Model M 1395240-- NIB Cherry MX 5000 - IBM Model M 1391412 (Swiss QWERTZ) -- IBM Model M 1391403 (German QWERTZ) * 2 -- IBM Model M Ambra -- Black IBM Model M M13 -- IBM Model M 1391401 -- IBM Model M 139? ? ? *2 -- Dell AT102W -- Ergo (split) SmartBoard (white ALPS apparently)

Offline Half-Saint

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Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #47 on: Fri, 17 June 2011, 15:32:50 »
Typing this on my bolt-modded Space Saver :-)

I figured out what was wrong. The membranes weren't in correct order! Anyway, there's one last issue:
I had to remove the white insert for the Enter key or the key would constantly get stuck. Interestingly, right Shift doesn't exhibit the same behavior. Any ideas?

Cheers
SainT

P.S. After typing on a G80-1800 for ages, this really feels weird!
IBM Model M (6) - Acer Alcatel 6312-KW - IBM Model M Space Saver - IBM Model M 122-key - Cherry G80-3000 (2) - IBM Model F AT - TG3 BL82A (2)

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Offline TacticalCoder

  • Posts: 466
Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #48 on: Sat, 18 June 2011, 07:20:36 »
Quote from: Half-Saint;362549
Typing this on my bolt-modded Space Saver :-)


Congrats!

Quote
I figured out what was wrong. The membranes weren't in correct order! Anyway, there's one last issue:
I had to remove the white insert for the Enter key or the key would constantly get stuck. Interestingly, right Shift doesn't exhibit the same behavior.


Is it a problem? I mean, does ENTER feels different without the insert?
HHKB Pro JP (daily driver) -- HHKB Pro 2 -- Industrial IBM Model M 1395240-- NIB Cherry MX 5000 - IBM Model M 1391412 (Swiss QWERTZ) -- IBM Model M 1391403 (German QWERTZ) * 2 -- IBM Model M Ambra -- Black IBM Model M M13 -- IBM Model M 1391401 -- IBM Model M 139? ? ? *2 -- Dell AT102W -- Ergo (split) SmartBoard (white ALPS apparently)

Offline Half-Saint

  • Posts: 1008
Model M Rivet Replacement for Klutzes
« Reply #49 on: Sat, 18 June 2011, 13:25:39 »
Thanks to everyone that contributed to various nut&bolt mod threads, especially ripster ;)

TacticalCoder: the key doesn't really feel much different, just a bit wobbly perhaps.
IBM Model M (6) - Acer Alcatel 6312-KW - IBM Model M Space Saver - IBM Model M 122-key - Cherry G80-3000 (2) - IBM Model F AT - TG3 BL82A (2)

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Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_mayhem/