Author Topic: Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?  (Read 13194 times)

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Offline theferenc

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« on: Tue, 02 November 2010, 21:48:52 »
Other than the HHKBs, are there any Sun Type 3 layout (also known as UNIX layout) keyboards with a decent mechanical switch? Any of the Cherry MX switches would be fine (I have used both brown and blue, and like them both).

I'm just looking for something in the Cherry price range rather than the Topre price range.

For what it's worth, I already own an HHKB, but would like another keyboard so that I don't have to keep transporting this one around, and don't want to spend another $250.

Edit: forgot to make it a question...oops.
« Last Edit: Tue, 02 November 2010, 22:00:54 by theferenc »
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
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Offline theferenc

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 03 November 2010, 07:58:43 »
Unfortunately, all that does is swap the caps lock and control keys. The ~, backspace, and \ are still all in the wrong spots.

Thanks though. And thanks for the greeting.

Edit: Oh, and it does put the ESC in the right place. But the other keys are still in the wrong places.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline sapht

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 04 November 2010, 12:07:09 »
Is that left control key actually cut out like a caps lock key, as the image conveys? That's pretty stupid. I don't have any Sun Type 3 layout keyboards yet, but I'm sure I'd love the layout.
Current hoard: Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless Brown, Das Keyboard II Professional Blue, IBM Model M double shot keycaps, HHKB2 blank white

Offline theferenc

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 04 November 2010, 15:39:11 »
Quote from: sapht;242559
Is that left control key actually cut out like a caps lock key, as the image conveys? That's pretty stupid. I don't have any Sun Type 3 layout keyboards yet, but I'm sure I'd love the layout.


The layout is awesome, especially if you're a programmer, and even more especially if you're a user of vi(m).

I actually find it annoying to type on "regular" layout keyboards nowadays, but I've been using sun boards for about 10 years now. Unfortunately, the older mechanical boards that sun produced long ago don't work on regular PC machines, so without building your own adapter (or spending a fortune on the sun model), they aren't particularly usable anymore. I've been told they are comparable to the Model M, but as I've never used that, I can't say for sure.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline aegrotatio

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 04 November 2010, 22:06:07 »
Quote from: ripster;242560
Unicomp will give you a non-stepped key for there.


No, they won't, unless something new has happened and they have non-stepped keys for that position.  I already asked them about this earlier this year.
Daily Drivers: Ducky DK1087XM || DSI ASK-6600 || Rosewill RK-9000 BL, BR, BL, and RE || ABS M1 || Das Keyboard Silent || HHKB Lite and Lite 2 || DSI Big Font (kids love it)
Yearning for: Any ALPS keyboard || Any tenkeyless mechanical keyboard
Permanent collection: Poker Blue and Brown || Adesso MKB-125B || SIIG MiniTouch Geek Hack Space Saver || Chicony 5181 Monterey Blue || Chicony 5191 Clone Cherry Blues || Key Tronic 3600 || Unicomp Endurapro & SmarTrex || A crate of IBM Model M and Model M Space Saving boards || NeXTstation Slab || Amiga 3000 || BTC-5100C black and beige || SIIG MiniTouch Plus black and beige
Retired collection: SIIG MiniTouch Monterey Blue || Razer BlackWidow

Offline aegrotatio

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 04 November 2010, 22:35:06 »
He said that they don't have any keys except stepped ones that will fit in that location.  The stepped Control key is just stupid and it's the only reason I don't own one of Unicomp's "Unix" keyboards already.
Daily Drivers: Ducky DK1087XM || DSI ASK-6600 || Rosewill RK-9000 BL, BR, BL, and RE || ABS M1 || Das Keyboard Silent || HHKB Lite and Lite 2 || DSI Big Font (kids love it)
Yearning for: Any ALPS keyboard || Any tenkeyless mechanical keyboard
Permanent collection: Poker Blue and Brown || Adesso MKB-125B || SIIG MiniTouch Geek Hack Space Saver || Chicony 5181 Monterey Blue || Chicony 5191 Clone Cherry Blues || Key Tronic 3600 || Unicomp Endurapro & SmarTrex || A crate of IBM Model M and Model M Space Saving boards || NeXTstation Slab || Amiga 3000 || BTC-5100C black and beige || SIIG MiniTouch Plus black and beige
Retired collection: SIIG MiniTouch Monterey Blue || Razer BlackWidow

Offline sixty

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 04 November 2010, 22:38:36 »
Finding a non stepped key is nearly impossible.

Read on webwit's quest here: http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/?mid=photo&search_target=title&search_keyword=quest&document_srl=1874062

Offline xwhatsit

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 05 November 2010, 01:29:32 »
Gosh I'd love a non-stepped key for that position. Don't care if it says "Control" or not.
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Offline Findecanor

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 05 November 2010, 07:11:44 »
Quote from: sixty;242780
Finding a non stepped key is nearly impossible.

Read on webwit's quest here: http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/?mid=photo&search_target=title&search_keyword=quest&document_srl=1874062
Oh... It is a JIS layout Right Shift key he is using for non-stepped "Caps Lock"! Luck!
« Last Edit: Fri, 05 November 2010, 07:17:27 by Findecanor »
"Normal is the greatest enemy in regard to creating the new. To get around this you have to understand normal not as reality but as just a construct." -- Alan Kay
Daily driver: Phantom (Lubed Cherry MX Clear, Lasered Cherry PBT keycaps with Row A. Plastic "Frankencase". Custom firmware, Swedish layout)

woody

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 08 November 2010, 10:58:54 »
The whole "Unix needs CTRL to the left of A" is something I don't get at all.

woody

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 08 November 2010, 11:05:12 »
They should get out more.

Offline keyboardlover

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 08 November 2010, 11:39:49 »
Quote from: ripster
I have found Unix/Linux users to be rather picky about their keyboards.


They're picky about their software choices too. But that makes sense, because they're forced to be.

Offline kps

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 08 November 2010, 11:54:30 »
Quote from: woody;244269
The whole "Unix needs CTRL to the left of A" is something I don't get at all.


Quite so. Everyone¹ needs CTRL to the left of A.

Unix users are more likely to use CTRL for its intended purpose, rather than² following the godawful Microsoft convention of overloading it as a menu shortcut key.


¹Unconventional ergo layouts excepted.
²Or, in the case of certain Linux-oriented software of questionable taste, in addition to

Offline itlnstln

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 08 November 2010, 12:55:17 »
Ctrl to the left of A doesn't bother me on the HHKB, but I do like it better under Shift.  It works better for Cut, Paste, etc.

Yes, I am a Windows user.


woody

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 08 November 2010, 13:04:56 »
Quote from: kps;244293
Quite so. Everyone¹ needs CTRL to the left of A.

Unix users are more likely to use CTRL for its intended purpose, rather than² following the godawful Microsoft convention of overloading it as a menu shortcut key.


¹Unconventional ergo layouts excepted.
²Or, in the case of certain Linux-oriented software of questionable taste, in addition to

So I have used CTRL in the same way for almost 30 years. Still much more useful when present on both sides, symmetrical, to the sides of two ALTs. Dunno what you mean with Microsoft
By the way, if the keyboard allows, I press the left CTRL with my almost stationary palm. Anyone else using this wicked way?

Offline RoboKrikit

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 08 November 2010, 13:43:47 »
Unix folks use the Ctrl key a lot.

I don't see the sense in wasting a perfectly good modifier key that's directly next to the A key on Caps Lock.  Personally I keep the bottom left Ctrl as Ctrl, and assign Caps Lock to Ctrl also.  So I don't use Caps Lock at all, and rarely miss it.

If you were designing a new keyboard layout, what would you put there?
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Offline mike

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 08 November 2010, 14:07:32 »
Quote from: ripster;244272
I have found Unix/Linux users to be rather picky about their keyboards.


You make it sound like that's a bad thing!

Technically it'll be command-line *nix users who are picky about the keyboard layout - in my particularly geeky family (3 generations working with computers), it's a 50-50 split between those who go "Ooh! A command line" and "Eeek! A command line".

You would be grumpy too if DEC and IBM came along and shifted some of the most important keys for various *nix commands (shell, vi, emacs, etc.) further away from the home row. At least you would be if you were a *nix user of the "Ooh!" variety :)
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woody

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 08 November 2010, 14:32:27 »
Quote from: RoboKrikit;244350
If you were designing a new keyboard layout, what would you put there?

CapsLock, so it has the traditional design. ;-) Even if it's not used as such, one can always remap. The damage done by (almost) each modern keyboard having random layout is much much worse.

Offline Findecanor

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 08 November 2010, 14:38:31 »
Quote from: ripster;244301
At least Microsoft came up with that OTHER useful key.
Show Image

Oh no. Using a key combo to open an application launcher is very very old feature in X window managers on Unix systems.
The Commodore Amiga's keyboard was a decade older in using a specialized key as a modifier, in the way that the Windows key is used.

Left Amiga key - Like the Windows Key in MS WIndows: Commands to the user interface.
Right Amiga key - Like the Command Key on Mac: Commands to the window in focus.

On the Amiga's keyboard, Ctrl and Caps Lock were single-width keys to the left of 'A'. This was the most common arrangement on personal computers and terminals back before the IBM AT layout became dominant.
Ctrl was used mostly in text-based apps ported from Unix and in terminals, though. However, I had used the Ctrl key enough number of times before I bought my first WIndows PC, that one of the first things I did with the PC was to get "TweakUI" because it allowed me to map Caps Lock to Ctrl. I did that even before installing my first Linux distro.
"Normal is the greatest enemy in regard to creating the new. To get around this you have to understand normal not as reality but as just a construct." -- Alan Kay
Daily driver: Phantom (Lubed Cherry MX Clear, Lasered Cherry PBT keycaps with Row A. Plastic "Frankencase". Custom firmware, Swedish layout)

Offline zefrer

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 08 November 2010, 17:32:17 »
Quote from: kps;244293

²Or, in the case of certain Linux-oriented software of questionable taste, in addition to


Don't think that no one got that :) Superior software haters, so irrational.

Offline theferenc

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 08 November 2010, 19:06:31 »
I have no problem if the key to the left of A is a caps lock, as I can just remap that. But remapping escape to it's proper place left of the 1, as well as moving the backspace down a row and putting 2 keys (~, \) in it's place...not so easy to do.

And really, after using a Sun keyboard for as long as I have, muscle memory is strong. And it's a giant pain in the ass when you go to type a \ or a ~ and your **** starts getting deleted.

Plus, I'm definitely in Mike's "Ooh!" camp. I spend WAY too much time in some form of terminal emulator, vi, or emacs. And the lack of either vi or emacs keybindings in windows GUI programs does tend to mess with me ALL THE TIME.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline theferenc

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 08 November 2010, 19:17:05 »
Oh, and yes, I am definitely picky about my layout. Which is why I started this thread in the first place, as I want a second board with the same layout, but preferably with Cherry switches.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline theferenc

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 08 November 2010, 20:56:45 »
I would so buy that keyboard in a heartbeat. Is that a photoshop, or did you actually do that?

But yes, that is EXACTLY what I'm looking for, I think. Alas, with dissertation work, I just don't have the time to do the mod myself. Any chance you might have one for sale?

Edit: And is that something that could be done to the Unicomp boards? Or a used M from eBay? Or is it just a Model M-Mini mod? It's unclear from the link.
« Last Edit: Mon, 08 November 2010, 21:02:45 by theferenc »
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline msiegel

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 08 November 2010, 21:02:20 »
it's real, but there's only one of them :)

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Offline theferenc

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 08 November 2010, 21:08:19 »
I guess I'll just have to wait a while until I either finish the dissertation, or have enough money laying around to buy another HHKB.

I'm thinking the former, as I'd like to start collecting more keyboards...it's like a DISEASE!
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline RoboKrikit

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 00:41:40 »
Quote from: ripster;244354
A  windows key.

Nah, just kidding Linux folks.


I'm a Unix guy that actually likes the Windows key.  Just finished building a new PC with Windows 7 (first Windows box in a long time).  WinKey+Tab for 3D window switching is pretty cool; not quite Exposé but better than nothing.
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Offline ch_123

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 05:11:56 »
Quote from: woody;244269
The whole "Unix needs CTRL to the left of A" is something I don't get at all.


Try using Emacs on a normal keyboard, then get back to us.

woody

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 06:35:54 »
Quote from: ch_123;244555
Try using Emacs on a normal keyboard, then get back to us.

I've got enough other brain damage, thank you.

What's the point, really? I do lots of CTRL (and other modifier) chords, even my window management is solely by keyboard and pointing device used mostly for browsing. Left CTRL is fine where it is, and I can just press it with my palm - have you tried it? I've grown up with CTRL next to 'A' , didn't complain at all when switched to the 101+ layout at the time.
As far as I understand, a guy complains that he is used to Sun 3 layout, and wants something similar. That I can understand, and he probably can exchange keycaps and do some software customization. But there is no Unix or Linux layout per se, and Emacs, vi and similar arguments hardly have any ground, IMHO.

Just my two cents. Plese, move on. :-)

Offline theferenc

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 09:03:27 »
Woody, you're right, there is no "official" UNIX layout. But simply based on frequency of use, which do you think should be left of A, caps lock or control?

And yes, I've tried the "normal" layout, and hitting it with my palm doesn't work well for me, at all. Especially since on many laptop boards, it's not the lower left corner key.

Anyway, the point of the question was to find something, like the HHKB, that just had the layout. I'm capable of creating something mostly similar with your average keyboard, and Ripster pointed me towards how to create it completely, at least with (I assume) a Model M.

I understand what you're saying though. But the fact is, emacs especially is just painful on the average board, unless you remap control. Otherwise, you're constantly curling your pinky in a really weird fashion, and eventually it just hurts. You can say this hardly has any ground, and that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, regardless of how useless it is.

Do software development, technical writing, or similar, and then we can talk. Programming, writing a document in LaTeX (or even just HTML), these are so keyboard centric, and emacs/vi/VS all have useful keybindings, and all of them work better on these "UNIX" style boards (so called because it wasn't until windows and mac that the 101 layout became what it was). And since you should really be using a keyboard that is most comfortable for you to use, that means the argument has MUCH ground, as layout is important to comfort.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline zefrer

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 13:55:23 »
Well you could always get a type 7 keyboard from Sun (they do sell them) and transplant cherry switches in it in the style of Lanx's mod for example. Not for the faint of heart obviously.

woody

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Sun Type 3 layout mechanical keyboard?
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 14:40:01 »
Quote from: theferenc;244592
Woody, you're right, there is no "official" UNIX layout. But simply based on frequency of use, which do you think should be left of A, caps lock or control?

I've answered that already - CapsLock, just because of the legacy/compatibility. You can remap, the rest can have unified layout. The only evil key so far (that I see) is "Fn". :-)

Quote
And yes, I've tried the "normal" layout, and hitting it with my palm doesn't work well for me, at all. Especially since on many laptop boards, it's not the lower left corner key.

Yes, it doesn't work for laptops/chiclet/etc which are low profile, but there the pinky travel is rather small. It doesn't work when "Fn" is in the lower left position, but I avoid that as the plague. But I'm curious why it doesn't work well for you on a regular keyboard? It's not something that I engineered by intention - it just happened somehow. I am really puzzled if I'm the only one using this technique. Just place your left palm in a suitable position, then when you need "CTRL", you just tilt your palm to the left. PM me if you want to discuss this further, I could even make you some video.

Quote
I understand what you're saying though. But the fact is, emacs especially is just painful on the average board, unless you remap control. Otherwise, you're constantly curling your pinky in a really weird fashion, and eventually it just hurts. You can say this hardly has any ground, and that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, regardless of how useless it is.

I use text editors with CTRL chords and my left pinky doesn't hurt. In fact, I have always used CTRL extensively, and still prefer the 101+ position because of my twisted CTRL palm approach.

Quote
Do software development, technical writing, or similar, and then we can talk. Programming, writing a document in LaTeX (or even just HTML), these are so keyboard centric, and emacs/vi/VS all have useful keybindings, and all of them work better on these "UNIX" style boards (so called because it wasn't until windows and mac that the 101 layout became what it was).

If you guess what I do for living, I'll send you a keyboard on my expense. :)