Author Topic: I $%@#ING HATE scorpius (Read 11108 times)

kohan69 · « **on:** Fri, 19 November 2010, 22:11:32 »

regardig iOne Scorpius M10

I bought a new keyboard. First I had the Z switch become fault (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=9096)

I finally got the RMA back in August (long story) and after a mere 2 months it's starting to die again.

the comma key stopped working; the N and B keys require a lot of pressure just to be pressed.

How can any of you even dare recommending these??

I've had a filco tenkeyless black cherries. It has a solid feel; solid keys; not flimsiness and only twice the price for 10x the quality.

So to anyone looking for a keyboard avoid ione like the plagues

chimera15 · « **Reply #1 on:** Fri, 19 November 2010, 22:41:23 »

God it's just a switch issue. It has nothing to do with Scorpius, as it uses Cherry blue mx switches. All cherries are going to have that fault, I doubt that Scorpius uses different ones from any other company. This kind of thing is bound to happen on a certain percentage of mechanical switches, be it alps or cherry, or whatever. It's just one of the things you have to deal with mechanical switch boards. Well maybe not buckling spring.

Replace or swap the switch out with one you don't use on the board like numlock or something. It costs about $10 of supplies and about a minute of your time.

This is one of the advantages of mechanicals as well. You can easily repair faulty keys, and don't have to replace an entire board that you like if they become worn or stop working.

KillerBee · « **Reply #2 on:** Fri, 19 November 2010, 23:54:33 »

Can I recommend Kitchen Gun for this job?

chimera15 · « **Reply #3 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 05:21:57 »

Quote from: ripster;249572

It is a cold solder issue most likely, not the switch.

The video he points to shows a clear malfunction in the switch though, like one of the leaf's is bent or warped, so it seems like it's just a switch issue. I did find on one of the scorpius's I bought that the board had a broken trace on the board and solder used to bridge the gap, so there definitely are some production issues there, but nothing that can't be fixed pretty easily in reality.

Lanx · « **Reply #4 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 09:20:44 »

Quote from: chimera15;249621

The video he points to shows a clear malfunction in the switch though, like one of the leaf's is bent or warped, so it seems like it's just a switch issue. I did find on one of the scorpius's I bought that the board had a broken trace on the board and solder used to bridge the gap, so there definitely are some production issues there, but nothing that can't be fixed pretty easily in reality.

isn't that video about the "z" key before the rma and now the rma fails? sounds like bad soldering, open that sucker up and resolder/ liquidfy solder, have fun.

i'd be ready to blame faulty soldering than a bad switch.

chimera15 · « **Reply #5 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 10:58:30 »

What he's showing is clearly a fault in the mechanics of the switch, although it's not clear what the problem actually is. It sounds like the click leaf has just flattened out or something. It doesn't seem like something that Scorpius would be at fault for.

chimera15 · « **Reply #6 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 11:01:54 »

Quote from: ripster;249659

Scorpius M10.

The Yugo of keyboards. Voted Car Talk's Worst Car Of The Millenium.

Maybe of mechanical keyboards, but really I think they're giving you a lot for the price. Actually I was surprised at the build quality of the DSI modular mac keyboard I bought which also uses blue cherries. It seems to use as or cheaper plastic than the m10, and costs 2 or 3 times as more, and has less keyswitches.

Also the e key didn't work originally on that one and I had to open it up, but it finally seemed to start working although I didn't do much to it.

I'm starting to think it's just all blue cherry boards, or ones manufactured after 1985-1990 that just suck. I'll stick to my custom builds and minitouches I guess.

I couldn't get used to the modular mac at all.

rantenki · « **Reply #7 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 12:56:04 »

Quote from: chimera15;249693

What he's showing is clearly a fault in the mechanics of the switch, although it's not clear what the problem actually is. It sounds like the click leaf has just flattened out or something. It doesn't seem like something that Scorpius would be at fault for.

The soldering process and the switch failing are not necessarily separate issues. While these kinds of boards would normally be wave soldered, it is possible that they are getting hand reworked, or have process control problems. High temperatures or overheating during the pre-heat phase on a wave solder _could_ cause issues, but rework or manual solder are more likely causes.

CodeChef · « **Reply #8 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 14:55:50 »

Has anyone else been having problems with their M10s? Are they really that bad?

chimera15 · « **Reply #9 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 15:01:16 »

I've bought two. I stripped one for its switches. I used the first one I had on and off for about 6 months. It wasn't one of my main keyboards, I used it like a few hours every week to pay bills with it. Never had any problem. Honestly in my opinion it's not that bad of a board. It's certainly above the level of a dell bigfoot black alps board, or a lower end mechanical of any other brand, probably even better than most fake white alps boards, and for the price you get a ton of blue cherries, less than what you would be able to buy them for from any retailer.

woody · « **Reply #10 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 15:03:54 »

OMG, I am SOLDered on it.

woody · « **Reply #11 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 15:10:55 »

Wave solder gone wrong? Chinese kids fixing it? Doom of RoHS?

So many questions left unanswered.

chimera15 · « **Reply #12 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 15:14:10 »

Neither of mine are that bad. Even so, that's easily fixable stuff.

chimera15 · « **Reply #13 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 15:56:16 »

What other full sized cherry blue keyboard can you get for $60-$70?

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #14 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 17:34:46 »

Quote from: chimera15;249831

What other full sized cherry blue keyboard can you get for $60-$70?

I can see why the OP is mad. One faulty key is okay, and it was replaced underwarranty (or repaired?). But to have two other keys not working as they should either is not good. To me, any keyboard which has even a single key that does not work as it should is a useless keyboard. Why? Every time I need to press on that key, the feeling will be completely different from the other keys. That feeling will be even more noticeable that the feeling of the other keys, because the brain will detect something "new" and will make the user more aware of the faulty key. This was why I returned my first Das. The semicolon key was not the same. Even though I don't use the semicolon everytime I need to type something, it was enough to drive me crazy when I needed to use it.

chimera15 · « **Reply #15 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 17:49:56 »

Replace the friggen switch if it feels off. It's not like it's a rubber dome or something. You can get cherry's ala cart for like $2 each I think can't you? And a desoldering iron cost $10 at Radio shack that can be used to resolder the switch as well.

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #16 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 18:06:45 »

Quote from: chimera15;249899

Replace the friggen switch if it feels off. It's not like it's a rubber dome or something. You can get cherry's ala cart for like $2 each I think can't you? And a desoldering iron cost $10 at Radio shack that can be used to resolder the switch as well.

You mean it's okay to accept a defective product, even if you noticed that it was defective right after you took it out of the box?

$2 for a switch + $10 for a soldering iron = $12. That's not including shipping. That said, why should I spend more money and my time for a product that did not work right, right from the beginning? It's a product for which I paid more than $100 to begin with. My time is valuable. I prefer to spend an hour with my daughter than to spend an hour fixing a switch. Moreover, would not opening a new keyboard void the warranty?

Quote from: ripster;249900

Not everybody does soldering for lulz.

Exactly. Desoldering and soldering is not an activity that I find pleasant. Spending time with my daughter, spending time cooking or spending time making a second child are activities that I find pleasant to me.

Above all, to me, when I agreed to pay the price the seller/manufacturer is asking, the manufacturer/sellers agrees to sell me a non-defective product.

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #17 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 18:09:11 »

Ripster: Do you have a stock of Lego pictures or do you go take one to match the subject?

muchadoaboutnothing · « **Reply #18 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 18:14:57 »

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;249909

Ripster: Do you have a stock of Lego pictures or do you go take one to match the subject?

The EXIF data indicates it's a photo that's about ~1 year old.

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #19 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 18:17:32 »

Quote from: muchadoaboutnothing;249912

Make: NIKON CORPORATION
Camera Model Name: NIKON D200
Create Date: 2009:10:12 09:13:00.90-07:00
1 year, 1 month, 8 days, 7 hours, 1 minute, 16 seconds ago
Modify Date: 2010:06:27 11:03:14-07:00
4 months, 23 days, 5 hours, 11 minutes, 2 seconds ago

A simpler answer would have been "He has a stock" LOL.

muchadoaboutnothing · « **Reply #20 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 18:19:31 »

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;249914

A simpler answer would have been "He has a stock" LOL.

We're on a site with geek in the name. The verbose answer is far more interesting/fun!

chimera15 · « **Reply #21 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 18:25:24 »

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;249908

You mean it's okay to accept a defective product, even if you noticed that it was defective right after you took it out of the box?

$2 for a switch + $10 for a soldering iron = $12. That's not including shipping. That said, why should I spend more money and my time for a product that did not work right, right from the beginning? It's a product for which I paid more than $100 to begin with. My time is valuable. I prefer to spend an hour with my daughter than to spend an hour fixing a switch. Moreover, would not opening a new keyboard void the warranty?

Exactly. Desoldering and soldering is not an activity that I find pleasant. Spending time with my daughter, spending time cooking or spending time making a second child are activities that I find pleasant to me.

Above all, to me, when I agreed to pay the price the seller/manufacturer is asking, the manufacturer/sellers agrees to sell me a non-defective product.

Then why buy a keyboard, let alone to take time to argue on this forum. Go spend time with your daughter. If you have a desoldering iron and a clue, you might actually be able to teach your daughter something about how things work how about?

If you have a desoldering iron, and a mechanical keyboard, you will never need to buy a new keyboard ever again in your life because you'll be able to fix your own crap, instead of relying on other people to make you stuff, let alone taking the time and money to send the thing back to the manufacturer. It takes less time to replace the switch yourself than it does to go to the post office, stand in line, and send the board back to the manufacturer.

Owning a mechanical keyboard isn't for everyone I guess. Switches do fail, switches are out of production. Go buy a disposable rubber dome that will work right out of the box, but last 2 months and you can throw it in the trash if that's what you want. Nothing in this world is perfect, especially in the Chinese manufacturing, lowest cost, highest profit economy that's taken hold today. If you want something near perfect, you're going to have to make it yourself.

The reason the soldering issues according to the pages linked with the Scorpius, and the reason for the messy flux all over these boards is because they're using non-leaded solder, which is a noble attempt at being less wasteful and damaging to the environment, let alone the workers building them, as a mechanical keyboard. I support this, even if it means that the solder points aren't always perfect.

microsoft windows · « **Reply #22 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 18:32:47 »

Stupid non-leaded solder. It's not like people are going to eat their keyboards...

J888www · « **Reply #23 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 18:41:24 »

....but if you do a great deal of soldering and have a habit of "chasing the dragon", it'll be the death of you even if the drugs don't kill you.

Edit: Did I just type that ? it's late so goodnight all.

chimera15 · « **Reply #24 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 18:41:39 »

Quote from: microsoft windows;249921

Stupid non-leaded solder. It's not like people are going to eat their keyboards...

It's dangerous in landfills if the board is thrown away and can seep into ground water, as well as to workers assembling thousands of them.

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #25 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 19:58:06 »

Quote from: chimera15;249919

Then why buy a keyboard, let alone to take time to argue on this forum. Go spend time with your daughter. If you have a desoldering iron and a clue, you might actually be able to teach your daughter something about how things work how about?

Actually, I was spending time with my daughter after I posted my last comment. If you like using a soldering iron, then go ahead and use it. Not everyone likes to use one. Not everyone who owns a car knows how to fix it, and not everyone who owns a computer knows how to fix it. And as far as I know, knowing how to fix a keyboard is not one of the criteria to buy one.

Quote

It takes less time to replace the switch yourself than it does to go to the post office, stand in line, and send the board back to the manufacturer.

I don't need to take the keyboard to the post office. Purolator/FedEx/UPS will come and pick up the keyboard at my door.

RickyJ · « **Reply #26 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 20:18:45 »

Quote from: chimera15;249924

It's dangerous in landfills if the board is thrown away and can seep into ground water, as well as to workers assembling thousands of them.

I agree, but in my experience the major downside is that it actually causes more hardware to go to the recycler/landfill. Everything good is bad for the environment/health these days.

CodeChef · « **Reply #27 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 20:56:52 »

whoa, both chimera and patrick need to chill out. this is a place of love, not war.

keyboardlover · « **Reply #28 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 21:42:17 »

Quote from: CodeChef

whoa, both chimera and patrick need to chill out. this is a place of love, not war.

IMHO it's a place of both. In any case, chimera15 has been known to say some pretty strange things now and then. Someone who thinks taking a vacation to Japan when they are in debt makes sense probably isn't the best to advise Patrick on how he should best prioritize his time. I reccomend ignoring him or posting funny pics for the lulz.

Now this is what I call a keyboard war.

chimera15 · « **Reply #29 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 21:42:24 »

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;249964

Actually, I was spending time with my daughter after I posted my last comment. If you like using a soldering iron, then go ahead and use it. Not everyone likes to use one. Not everyone who owns a car knows how to fix it, and not everyone who owns a computer knows how to fix it. And as far as I know, knowing how to fix a keyboard is not one of the criteria to buy one.

I don't need to take the keyboard to the post office. Purolator/FedEx/UPS will come and pick up the keyboard at my door.

Everyone who drivers a car should know how to maintain it. Check/change the oil, fix a flat if you have one on the highway, and just generally be able to fix simple things. There's a big difference between being a car mechanic where you need in some cases thousands of dollars of tools, and potentially risk your life and thousands of dollars if you mess up a repair of your vehicle.

Replacing a switch on a mechanical keyboard is a as easy as checking your oil level in a car, it's not a major operation. Nor does it take more than 10-15 minutes. I can pull and replace an entire keyboard in under an hour.

Plug in the iron, let it heat up, press the bulb, remove the solder, remove the switch, and then get some solder and put a new switch back in place.

You honestly do spend more time calling up fedex and waiting for them to come, answering the door etc, than just replacing the switch. Stop being such a wimp. Actually it'd be a great project for your girl. I bet she could do it. lol I was doing more complex stuff when I was 5.

keyboardlover · « **Reply #30 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 21:47:12 »

Quote from: chimera15

Replacing a switch on a mechanical keyboard is a as easy as checking your oil level in a car, it's not a major operation. Plug in the iron, let it heat up, press the bulb, remove the solder, remove the switch, and then get some solder and put a new switch back in place.

Lol...that is way more complicated than checking your car's oil. And in any case, checking the oil in your car has much less of a chance of destroying your car as replacing a switch in your keyboard has of destroying your keyboard. I agree with Patrick; the extra time spent with his loved ones is more important. There's something adults have to do called 'prioritizing'. You should look into it sometime.

chimera15 · « **Reply #31 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 21:52:21 »

How are you going to destroy your keyboard? Unless you're the most uncoordinated person in the world you're not going to destroy it. I've replaced thousands of switches at this point and never once destroyed a board.

I can replace a switch in under a minute. If you have to prioritize a minute, I'd say you have more concerns than posting about your problems with the Scorpius on this board.

CodeChef · « **Reply #32 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 21:52:43 »

Quote from: keyboardlover;250001

Lol...that is way more complicated than checking your car's oil. And in any case, checking the oil in your car has much less of a chance of destroying your car as replacing a switch in your keyboard has of destroying your keyboard. I agree with Patrick; the extra time spent with his loved ones is more important. There's something adults have to do called 'prioritizing'. You should look into it sometime.

Alright, now just pour it in there... wait, wrong hole WRONG HOLE *BOOM* OH GOD THERE'S SO MUCH BLOOD

muchadoaboutnothing · « **Reply #33 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 21:53:57 »

I personally think this fight is getting absurd. Point is, some of us don't have the know how, equipment (not everyone owns a soldering iron, inclination or skill (I know how to solder. Soldering anything without destroying it is an ability I lack) to go and disassemble a board and repair switches.

The point is that even if you do know how you may just prefer to buy a finished product. It all depends on your priorities as well.

If I knew how to solder (well) I would attempt to repair a board myself. Since I don't, despite the long waiting period, I would prefer to send it in.

This argument is silly and keeps going in circles. Let's agree to disagree, shall we?

Phaedrus2129 · « **Reply #34 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 21:55:43 »

Quote from: chimera15;249924

It's dangerous in landfills if the board is thrown away and can seep into ground water, as well as to workers assembling thousands of them.

Metallic lead does not seep into ground water. It isn't exactly soluble, you know.

kohan69 · « **Reply #35 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 21:56:03 »

Some of you are missing the point. It broke ~2 months of use, it is a replacement for another one that was defective.

It doesn't matter how easy or not easy the fix is. The manufacturer is held responsible.

My , key stopped working, now the N and B keys need additional pressure to work - it would be a foolish and a self-defeating act to attempt any kinds of repair - even if you can put together a keyboard by hand.

The point is to hold manufacturer responsible for faulty products, and expect them to respect their warranties.

If your 5 year old crappy $20 logitech keyboard breaks - you call them and they send you a replacement for no cost - that breeds customer loyalty and dedication, setting an example for others to follow.

CodeChef · « **Reply #36 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 21:56:20 »

Quote from: muchadoaboutnothing;250008

I personally think this fight is getting absurd. Point is, some of us don't have the know how, equipment (not everyone owns a soldering iron, inclination or skill (I know how to solder. Soldering anything without destroying it is an ability I lack) to go and disassemble a board and repair switches.

The point is that even if you do know how you may just prefer to buy a finished product. It all depends on your priorities as well.

If I knew how to solder (well) I would attempt to repair a board myself. Since I don't, despite the long waiting period, I would prefer to send it in.

This argument is silly and keeps going in circles. Let's agree to disagree, shall we?

It's really the dissing of family members that I don't like. I don't care if they argue, but let them keep it clean and civil and keep it to private messages.

keyboardlover · « **Reply #37 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 21:57:57 »

Quote from: CodeChef;250006

Alright, now just pour it in there... wait, wrong hole WRONG HOLE *BOOM* OH GOD THERE'S SO MUCH BLOOD

That's what she said!

muchadoaboutnothing · « **Reply #38 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 21:59:39 »

Quote from: kohan69;250010

The point is to hold manufacturer responsible for faulty products, and expect them to respect their warranties.

If your 5 year old crappy $20 logitech keyboard breaks - you call them and they send you a replacement for no cost - that breeds customer loyalty and dedication, setting an example for others to follow.

Most Logitech boards have one year warranties.

I do see your point, but if a manufacturer continues to be a pain in the ass and screwing up repairs, I eventually cut my losses.

The only time I didn't was out of stubbornness and I went through 10 Xbox 360 refurbs before I got it replaced with a brand new unit. Fun times. Hours on the phone with Xbox Customer Service, meetings within Xbox Customer Service specifically regarding my case (after I got elevated; I was on the 8th Xbox and making a lot of noise). Next day air shipments and letters from Microsoft and the Attorney General of Washington's Office.

Fun, to say the least.

CodeChef · « **Reply #39 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 21:59:44 »

Quote from: keyboardlover;250014

That's what she said!

Lol'd quite well my friend.

Anyways,
:focus:
Is it worth getting the M10 and taking my chances or getting the Black Widow (next cheapest new/modern mech. kb with cherry blues)

muchadoaboutnothing · « **Reply #40 on:** Sat, 20 November 2010, 22:01:35 »

Quote from: CodeChef;250016

Lol'd quite well my friend.

Anyways,
:focus:
Is it worth getting the M10 and taking my chances or getting the Black Widow (next cheapest new/modern mech. kb with cherry blues)

I would say BlackWidow or RK-9000 (when it goes on sale again; I have little doubt that it will). The build quality of both seems to be much better.

It's like the Logitech Illuminated. Some of them have poor rollover (****F+W+SPACE fails as a combo) in certain batches that sit on shelves forever. The newest ones don't do it and some of the first ones don't fail on that either. The bad ones are still clogging up the shelves...

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #41 on:** Sun, 21 November 2010, 07:25:34 »

Quote from: keyboardlover;250001

There's something adults have to do called 'prioritizing'. You should look into it sometime.

LOL. I am leaving to go do some grocery shopping. The fridge is not going to fill itself :-)

chimera15 · « **Reply #42 on:** Sun, 21 November 2010, 07:43:00 »

Quote from: keyboardlover;249997

IMHO it's a place of both. In any case, chimera15 has been known to say some pretty strange things now and then. Someone who thinks taking a vacation to Japan when they are in debt makes sense probably isn't the best to advise Patrick on how he should best prioritize his time. I reccomend ignoring him or posting funny pics for the lulz.

Now this is what I call a keyboard war.

Show Image

I never said it was a vacation. It was a trip to find a job there, is what I was weighing a decision to do. It's people like you that take things out of context and don't read the issue at hand, and look at the details of the situation that are the problem.

chimera15 · « **Reply #43 on:** Sun, 21 November 2010, 07:45:51 »

Quote from: Phaedrus2129;250009

Metallic lead does not seep into ground water. It isn't exactly soluble, you know.

Lead seepage from e-waste is a huge issue. Keyboards or tv's. Anything is soluble in water, or really abraded by water given enough time.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/04/lead-from-ewaste-ending-up-in-alaskan-waters.php

keyboardlover · « **Reply #44 on:** Sun, 21 November 2010, 07:47:46 »

Right, and needing to move to another continent to get a job makes about as much sense too. (Or the other option was building some super expensive computer right?)
Again, priorities.

chimera15 · « **Reply #45 on:** Sun, 21 November 2010, 07:53:19 »

Quote from: CodeChef;250016

Lol'd quite well my friend.

Anyways,
:focus:
Is it worth getting the M10 and taking my chances or getting the Black Widow (next cheapest new/modern mech. kb with cherry blues)

I'd probably go with the Black Widow. Thanks for mentioning that. Looks really nice+ it's a gaming keyboard that has macros. The m10 is just a standard keyboard.

chimera15 · « **Reply #46 on:** Sun, 21 November 2010, 07:57:30 »

Quote from: keyboardlover;250091

Right, and needing to move to another continent to get a job makes about as much sense too. (Or the other option was building some super expensive computer right?)
Again, priorities.

When you've spent your whole life studying Japanese, 20+ years, and doing art in pop Japanese style, and wanting a job with a Japanese publisher while working as a computer repair tech it might.

keyboardlover · « **Reply #47 on:** Sun, 21 November 2010, 08:03:34 »

It sounds like in that case, it would make more sense to apply for that publisher (if they have an open position) from the USA right? Then if they want you to work for them they'd sponsor your working VISA.

chimera15 · « **Reply #48 on:** Sun, 21 November 2010, 08:11:41 »

Quote from: keyboardlover;250094

It sounds like in that case, it would make more sense to apply for that publisher (if they have an open position) from the USA right? Then if they want you to work for them they'd sponsor your working VISA.

Most Japanese companies looking to hire for Japan want you to be in Japan already, so they don't have to take the chance you can't enter the country for whatever reason. That's also where all the good language schools and such are, not to mention 100% immersion to learn the language.

If they have the ability to hire you over here they usually have American branches, but they'll hire you for the American branch, not Japan.

keyboardlover · « **Reply #49 on:** Sun, 21 November 2010, 08:25:03 »

I've never heard of that. I have a friend who worked in Japan and he applied from Europe. If you're an American or EU citizen and your background check and references check out then there's really no question if you can enter the country. And then it's up to them to sponsor you for a working visa. The only country I've heard of that prefers to hire you if you're already there is New Zealand.

News:

Author Topic: I $%@#ING HATE scorpius (Read 11108 times)

woody

woody