Graphics Cards

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

I just got a Core 2 Duo machine for Christmas, and I am looking to upgrade the graphics (the onboard video sucks) and I am trying to find the cheapest possible PCI Express x16 card to throw in it.  First thing I need to know, can I use a PCI Express 2.0 or 2.1 card on a PCI Express 1.0 port?  Also, what is the difference between a 128-bit card and a 64-bit card and can I use a 128-bit card on a 64-bit port? All help is greatly appreciated, and Merry Christmas.

[Pylon]

Well, what do you want to do with your sys? Game? Run dual monitors?

[Brian8bit]

Yes you can use a PCIe 2.0 card in an older slot. They're backwards compatible. I'm running a 5670 in a PCIe 1.0 slot.

[NAVIWORLDINC]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express It is backwards compatible, however you may need to perform a bios upgrade, if there is one available. The question really is how much performance are you looking to have?

[ricercar]

What makes you think the CHEAPEST add-on graphics subsystem is better than the integrated?

Here's the best hierarchical chart for determining the position of a GPU against others.

[ch_123]

Does that compact system take full-sized cards?

I'd get something like a second hand 8600GT. Cheap, and wont stress the PSU too much.

[EverythingIBM]

Pop one of your Voodoo II cards in there.

[microsoft windows]

I don't know if he's got the space for one of those.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

I am mainly trying to create a computer that is decent at doing pretty much anything I throw at it... Decent gaming graphics and good performance is what I am looking for without shooting a hole through my wallet.  I intend to upgrade the CPU to a Core 2 Quad and put 8gb of RAM in it, along with a DirectX 11 graphics card.  Now if I was to do that, would I want to get a new PSU? The current one maxes out at like 300w, would that be enough?

[EverythingIBM]

I am mainly trying to create a computer that is decent at doing pretty much anything I throw at it... Decent gaming graphics and good performance is what I am looking for without shooting a hole through my wallet.  I intend to upgrade the CPU to a Core 2 Quad and put 8gb of RAM in it, along with a DirectX 11 graphics card.  Now if I was to do that, would I want to get a new PSU? The current one maxes out at like 300w, would that be enough?

If you're putting in a decent graphics gaming-capable, you will need AT LEAST 400W.

I think a 2.4 Ghz quad C2D takes around the same as say a 2.6 duo C2D.

The GPU is more of a concern for power guzzling than the C2D I'd say.

All of my higher end machines are 400 watts.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

So things I should get:

-400w+ PSU = $60
-Core 2 Quad 2.4Ghz CPU = $130
-4x 2gb PC2 3200 DDR2 400 RAM = $35.50 x 4 = $142
-DirectX 11 capable graphics card (nVidia GeForce GT 430) = $60
-LG DVD-DL burner = $20

Total estimated cost: $412

Is it worth it to invest this much in a computer you only paid $100 for to begin with?

[EverythingIBM]

So things I should get:

-400w+ PSU = $60
-Core 2 Quad 2.4Ghz CPU = $130
-4x 2gb PC2 3200 DDR2 400 RAM = $35.50 x 4 = $142
-DirectX 11 capable graphics card (nVidia GeForce GT 430) = $60
-LG DVD-DL burner = $20

Total estimated cost: $412

Is it worth it to invest this much in a computer you only paid $100 for to begin with?

I wouldn't say so.

Wait until PC2-3200 becomes cheaper.

[woody]

I happily downgraded from 7600GS to G210. Less space, less heat.
Would've gone with integrated video, but they don't support dual-link DVI.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

I wouldn't say so.

Wait until PC2-3200 becomes cheaper.

Yeah I will hold off on the RAM, I already have 4gb in it anyways... However, what should I be getting first off of my wishlist? I'm thinking the PSU, maybe?

[bladamson]

There are some cool quad-head 8400GS cards on newegg, if you don't plan on doing any heavy 3d stuff.

And I stress if you don't plan on doing any heavy 3d stuff.  I'm using a dual-head PCIe x16 8800GT alongside a dual-head PCI 8400GS, and the 8400 is less than 1/4 the speed of the 8800 with OpenGL apps.  That may just be the craptastic PCI texture bandwidth and the fact that multihead X has to copy all the textures to both cards in desktop spanning mode though, iunno.

I think my next mobo will have two PCIe x16 slots and one of those quad-head 8400s will go in alongside the 8800. :3

[Pylon]

For something with 96 SP's and 1GB RAM GT 430 seems like a great deal right now, so stick with that. They also don't need a separate PCI-E power connector. You could probably even run it right now on your current PSU.

As for a PSU,
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151074&cm_re=seasonic-_-17-151-074-_-Product

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

All I am looking to do is play Call of Duty: World at War.  Let me put it this way, it ran (although slow) on a 3.0Ghz Pentium 4 with a ATI Radeon HD 2400 Pro and 3gb of RAM. So I need a card better than that one.

[ch_123]

Now if I was to do that, would I want to get a new PSU? The current one maxes out at like 300w, would that be enough?

Definitely not, you'd want something in the 400-500W region.

Also, check out what motherboard chipset your computer has. Just because the mobo might have the right socket, and support Core 2 Duos, doesnt automatically mean that it will support all Core 2 Quads, or even any of them.

[bladamson]

Hmm ya, it sounds to me like if you want all that stuff, you'd be better off building a new machine.

newegg sells case+PSU+mobo+cpu+ram(+disk sometimes) kits that can save you a couple of bucks.

I think you'd be looking at somewhere around $300 for a cheap AMD quad-core kit with 400w PSU and an 8800GT or equivalent card.

I built this 8 gig 3-core 8800GT AMD box from stuff there for about $350 with an existing case and PSU, but the 3-core+mobo deal was a steal and isn't available anymore, nor is the video card. :s  That being said, the mobo is a piece of crap, and I had to disable the onboard video, sound, and NIC to get it to behave properly under load. >_>

You get what you pay for, I reckon...

[NAVIWORLDINC]

I would like to point out that wattage is not always the most important thing to look for when choosing a new PSU. Amperage is, for instance a Corsair 450w PSU which has a lot of Amps of the 12v rail is usually sufficient for most mid tier single GPU machines. Also 80 Plus Certifications are good. I recommend brands like seasonic and corsair. Also 8GB of ram is beyond needed for any level of gaming, in fact I am running 4GB on my machine and have yet to tax it out while gaming, VM is another story...

As for those recommending 8 Series GPU's... DUH! OP want's a DX11 Card! Not a DX10 Card! Price to performance, the best card OP could probably invest in right now is a ATi 6850, 5770, or a Nvidia GTX460...

As a reminder older Core2Duo CPU's were power hungry, (although newer ones are power efficent) so If OP's CPU is older I would recommend going into a 600W 80 plus, over 20amps 12v rail PSU.

I think OP should take screenshots of cpuz of cpu, motherboard, and ram, so we could give him a much better opinion on what he/she should be using.

[bladamson]

As for those recommending 8 Series GPU's... DUH! OP want's a DX11 Card! Not a DX10 Card! Price to performance, the best card OP could probably invest in right now is a ATi 6850, 5770, or a Nvidia GTX460...

Ah right, sorry.  I'm coming from OpenGL land, myself.  I didn't realize that newer releases of directx stopped supporting older cards. :<

[NAVIWORLDINC]

Ah right, sorry.  I'm coming from OpenGL land, myself.  I didn't realize that newer releases of directx stopped supporting older cards. :<

Microsoft and DX did not stop support... The hardware of the video card cannot support DX11. The 8XXX series cards were designed to support DX10, and I think maybe 10.1??? not to sure about that right now. But DX11 was released a while after the 8XXX series cards.

[bladamson]

Microsoft and DX did not stop support... The hardware of the video card cannot support DX11. The 8XXX series cards were designed to support DX10, and I think maybe 10.1??? not to sure about that right now. But DX11 was released a while after the 8XXX series cards.

Don't take this the wrong way; I'm not trying to be argumentative, but...  Isn't that the definition of dropping software support?

I mean, you can run an opengl 4.1 app on a 7900, if you want to, but the unsupported features fall back on software and it's kinda slow until you turn them off.

Maybe it's different in the gaming world?  Is DX more bare-metal-to-the-hardware than OGL is or something?

[NAVIWORLDINC]

Don't take this the wrong way; I'm not trying to be argumentative, but...  Isn't that the definition of dropping software support?

I mean, you can run an opengl 4.1 app on a 7900, if you want to, but the unsupported features fall back on software and it's kinda slow until you turn them off.

Maybe it's different in the gaming world?  Is DX more bare-metal-to-the-hardware than OGL is or something?

No that is the definition of hardware support. Modern video cards are built with hardware support for a certain version of Direct X. It has been this way for years.

[bladamson]

Hmm, still seems kinda backwards to me, but...  I think we're on two totally different wavelengths here.  Nevermind.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Definitely not, you'd want something in the 400-500W region.

Also, check out what motherboard chipset your computer has. Just because the mobo might have the right socket, and support Core 2 Duos, doesnt automatically mean that it will support all Core 2 Quads, or even any of them.

I looked up the mobo on Intel.com and found that this mobo does support some Core 2 Quad processors.  That said, it can also support quad-core Xeon processors, but which would be better? A Core 2 Quad or a quad-core Xeon with the same specs?

[bladamson]

From what I understand (which ain't much sometimes), I think the Xeon has a faster internal bus and faster cache memory.  Not sure if it does more hyperthreading or not.  It's a better, faster CPU, but you'll pay out the nose for it.

I'd be running a box with two of 'em if I could afford it. XD

[NAVIWORLDINC]

I wouldn't waste your money on a xeon, although they are GREAT on paper, they are really good for highly processed tasks, modern games don't really use a heavy load on the processor and work mostly off of the GPU. It would be better for gaming if you to went with a quad core and go with a better video card...

[ch_123]

Xeons (at least the ones that are socket compatible with regular desktop CPUs) are mostly identical to their Core/Pentium counterparts. I have read that they make some subtle modifications to make them more suited to server workloads (not sure of the specifics). The main difference though is that the chips are not clocked as high as their desktop counterparts, meaning that that on a price point, they're slower, and on a performance point, they're more expensive.

Stick to the desktop chips, basically.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Ok, I've made most of my decisions on what to buy in order to upgrade this machine, but I have an even bigger issue right now... The PS/2 port on this mobo can't power my Model M! I can't live without using my Model M on my best computer, so what is the cheapest way to go in order to get it working again?  PS/2 to USB adapter, maybe?

EDIT: I'm too lazy to do Ripster's Model M to USB mod, so is there any other way to make this work?

[bladamson]

Ok, I've made most of my decisions on what to buy in order to upgrade this machine, but I have an even bigger issue right now... The PS/2 port on this mobo can't power my Model M! I can't live without using my Model M on my best computer, so what is the cheapest way to go in order to get it working again?  PS/2 to USB adapter, maybe?

EDIT: I'm too lazy to do Ripster's Model M to USB mod, so is there any other way to make this work?

Dude!  That's crazy!

Might be able to clip the power pin off the KB connector at the motherboard and run a 5v lead from a molex connector or something.  Or do the same thing with a ps/2 extension cable, if you don't want to attack your motherboard with a hot poker.

Edit: If the ps/2 power rail is too wimpy to run the M, I imagine the USB power rail is too.  They're probably on the same circuit.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Here is the thing though, I have run the Model M on this mobo just yesterday without problem, and today it won't work.  But it is even more complicated than that... I just tried plugging in my M4-1 into the SDL cable for my Model M, and, as I expected, it worked without issue... But then, out of curiosity, I plugged the SDL back into my Model M and it worked!  Totally bizzare, and that still isn't the worst of it... BIOS recognizes the keyboard upon startup, and it still works in the Windows Advanced Boot menu, but as soon as Windows begins to load the keyboard and mouse stop responding and I have to reboot.  Anybody have any clue as to what the hell is going on here?

[bladamson]

Weeeeeeeeeeeird.

It's Gremlins, I tell ya.

Iunno, wiggle the SDL end of the cable in your M and see if the keyboard resets or stops working sporadically?  Has it happened again?

The Gremlins can strike at any time.

[bladamson]

Aha!  That is good to know.

[EverythingIBM]

Yeah CLiB, it's a voltage issue.

Wrong amounts of voltage can do anything crazy and weird: but the bottom line is, it doesn't work normally. And that's the problem.

My HP had a PSU issue (HP uses cheap PSUs), and it did some of the strangest things: never to be repeated on a computer ever again.

Computers run on voltage, wrong amounts can still "work"... but in goofy ways.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Thanks for the tip Ripster, I'll have to look into getting a Blue Cube or a Belkin USB converter... Damn, I was hoping it was Gremlins, I want to see if they really blow up in the microwave

[Pylon]

Here's some cheap Belkins if that's your plan:
http://outlet.lenovo.com/accessories/keyboards-mice/41a1585.html

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

thanks Pylon, thats a better price than what I found on ebay...

[microsoft windows]

Weeeeeeeeeeeird.

It's Gremlins, I tell ya.

Iunno, wiggle the SDL end of the cable in your M and see if the keyboard resets or stops working sporadically?  Has it happened again?

The Gremlins can strike at any time.

Oh no! Here they come!

[bladamson]

Did they ever figure out a way to stop those things from rusting out into a pile of powder in less than 6 months?

[microsoft windows]

I don't think so. There's a reason why you haven't seen one in over 20 (or almost 30 now!) years.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

I think the Gremlins that are messing up my Model M look more like this:

[EverythingIBM]

I think the Gremlins that are messing up my Model M look more like this:

Show Image

Or possibly this:


Those Gremlins are very nasty.

[Azuremen]

I don't think so. There's a reason why you haven't seen one in over 20 (or almost 30 now!) years.

I see them randomly show up. Very rarely.

I'd suggest more along the lines of a 500W PSU I guess, though it seems like it could almost be cheaper to build a new computer with DDR3 and so on, since DD3 8GB sets are going for less than $100 nowadays...

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

I found a PSU while browsing around Google and I think it might just do the trick...
http://store.thirtyday.com/ropo50dumiat.html
500w, Micro ATX, cheap.  What more could I ask for, that is if it isn't just a piece of **** that will die in 3 months... well lets hope not, anyways.

[NAVIWORLDINC]

I found a PSU while browsing around Google and I think it might just do the trick...
http://store.thirtyday.com/ropo50dumiat.html
500w, Micro ATX, cheap.  What more could I ask for, that is if it isn't just a piece of **** that will die in 3 months... well lets hope not, anyways.

I really would not recommend that PSU, the amperage on the 12v rails is VERY low. Also I find having multiple 12v rails is gimmicky. One thing I would never skimp money on would be the PSU. I would seriously reconsider and find a 80plus PSU. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139017, For example, this thing provides almost 3 times the amps, which, like I said earlier is more important. On paper http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182199 This seams like a Very good PSU for the price.

[Pylon]

My friend lost his motherboard and Geforce FX 5200 (back in the day) from a bad power supply. Don't skimp on it.

Just get this if mATX is what you're looking for (I presume SFX and mATX are the same)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151063&cm_re=seasonic-_-17-151-063-_-Product

Despite being 350W, it throws out more amps on the 12V rails (18A on both 12V rails) than the "500W" you posted.

[NAVIWORLDINC]

My friend lost his motherboard and Geforce FX 5200 (back in the day) from a bad power supply. Don't skimp on it.

Just get this if mATX is what you're looking for (I presume SFX and mATX are the same)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151063&cm_re=seasonic-_-17-151-063-_-Product

Despite being 350W, it throws out more amps on the 12V rails (18A on both 12V rails) than the "500W" you posted.

Nice find for a Small Form Factor Machine. I like Seasonic PSU's. I might keep that model in mind if I ever plan on building a multimedia pc.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Ok then I will browse around some more, but I would really like for the PSU to be 400w or better; the graphics card I want requires it, and it must be Micro ATX with dimensions of 4.9" length and 2.5" height, otherwise it won't fit in my case.  I had found one on newegg for $60, but had some good and some bad reviews so I don't know if thats the one for me or not... Any other suggestions? Thanks for all the help guys, it's making this so much easier...

[microsoft windows]

Make sure it's not Chinese. Junky PSU's from China always have bad capacitors.