AEK II feels bad?

[Surly73]

I recently found a boxed AEK II.  It is made in USA, model M3501, serial# begins with "A", and appears to have ALPS ivory switches.  It's really clean and minty except for the original owners name scratched into the bottom.

The problem is that it doesn't feel like anything special.  There's MAYBE a perceptible tactile bump, but there's also some other kind of sticking, binding or other erratic and non-linear resistance to key presses.  It's clearly not just another rubber dome when typing on it but it's also nothing special.

This doesn't seem to live up to the AEK II's reputation and desirability I see documented around here.  It doesn't seem dirty or worn in the slightest (boxed, as I said).  I expect that it's been used but it is exceptionally clean.  I don't have any kind of adapter for ADB and no Apple computer to try real typing on, but I'd still like to get to the bottom of what's going on.

Any ideas or suggestions?  Or is it just "not for me" and fondness for it is all subjective?  In searching I've seen some threads out there touting the AEK II and the model M as the "two greats".

[ch_123]

The first time I typed on an AEK II, I thought it was a rubber dome keyboard. Like all Apple stuff, they are horribly over rated.

[theferenc]

Well, to put it in perspective, at the time it was released, it was, like all apple products, technically superior (mechanical vs. rubber dome keyboards, SCSI vs. ATA hard drives, etc.), yet way over priced, and not actually all that superior in real world terms.

That said, I actually rather like the feel of the keyboard, but I like ALPS switches. It's nice and smooth, there is a larger tactile bump than most cherry switches, and it has an exceptionally soft landing.

These characteristics obviously aren't for everyone, and there are probably many reasons that this was the last mechanical Apple offered.

But I think you are correct in your comparison to the Model M. While both are amazing keyboards, they are also not for everyone. And just like the Model M, there are quirks to the AEKII that bother some people and not others. As I said, I personally rather like the feel of the keyboard, but alas, the layout is not for me, and due to the latching caps lock, remapping isn't an issue without modding the keyswitches.

[Surly73]

But I think you are correct in your comparison to the Model M. While both are amazing keyboards, they are also not for everyone. And just like the Model M, there are quirks to the AEKII that bother some people and not others. As I said, I personally rather like the feel of the keyboard, but alas, the layout is not for me, and due to the latching caps lock, remapping isn't an issue without modding the keyswitches.

What I'm wondering, in particular, is if there's something wrong with this one or if it's in some need of maintenance.  I saw a reference somewhere to taking everything apart including the individual switches, but I honestly couldn't tell if this was tongue-in-cheek sarcasm based on the tone in the post.  It feels like the keys are sticking or jamming in a subtle way and the like.  It's nowhere near the "quality" feel of a model M which anyone can pick up on, even if they don't like model Ms, if that makes any sense.

[patrickgeekhack]

I just commented on this keyboard in another thread today. I am giving this keyboard a fair chance, but I have the feeling that I will end up liking the AEK more than the AEK II. Only time will tell.

[kps]

The best ALPS switches are ones ALPS never made: early (blue or orange switch) contact plates with padded AEKII sliders.

[theferenc]

What I'm wondering, in particular, is if there's something wrong with this one or if it's in some need of maintenance.  I saw a reference somewhere to taking everything apart including the individual switches, but I honestly couldn't tell if this was tongue-in-cheek sarcasm based on the tone in the post.  It feels like the keys are sticking or jamming in a subtle way and the like.  It's nowhere near the "quality" feel of a model M which anyone can pick up on, even if they don't like model Ms, if that makes any sense.

That might well have been my post you are referencing. I'm a big proponent of ALPS switch cleaning on old boards, even those in boxes.

It isn't that hard to do, and it does make the keyboard feel significantly better in my experience.

As far as there being something wrong with yours, what you describe is basically how mine was prior to cleaning. After cleaning, the bump was more pronounced, the switches smoother, and overall the keyboard just felt better.

And actually, I disagree with your last statement. It actually has a similar feel of quality to me, though it is quite different from a Model M. Equally as nice, only different.

[Surly73]

That might well have been my post you are referencing. I'm a big proponent of ALPS switch cleaning on old boards, even those in boxes.

It might have been.  Now I know you aren't kidding

As far as there being something wrong with yours, what you describe is basically how mine was prior to cleaning. After cleaning, the bump was more pronounced, the switches smoother, and overall the keyboard just felt better.

And actually, I disagree with your last statement. It actually has a similar feel of quality to me, though it is quite different from a Model M. Equally as nice, only different.

If they're dirty, that would explain it.  I'm just calling it as I see it in present condition - that's all.  A few test sentences without connection to a computer and I don't think it's anything special.  Pry a key cap, see ALPS, do some reading on line and tell myself "but it's SUPPOSED to be special...weird".

There isn't even dust underneath when you pull the keycaps.  Having to clean it seems so odd, unless it's dried out lubricants or something.  I may try a full disassembly and cleaning of a few keys in a group and see if the outcome is revolutionary.

Thanks, all

[Findecanor]

ALPS switches are sensitive to dust. It gets into the switch and adds friction. The board can be in perfect condition on the outside and still feel very bad.
The "Cream ALPS" that are in (most!) AEKIIs have rubber dampers on the sliders. The switches feel a lot like rubber domes, but unlike rubber domes, the dampening is both on the downstroke and the upstroke, it is very distinct and it does not get mushier with time.

The best ALPS switches are ones ALPS never made: early (blue or orange switch) contact plates with padded AEKII sliders.

I think so too.
The only thing I used my AEKII for was to harvest parts of the switches and put into other switches on my Dell AT101W. It has hybrid clicky, dampened switches for the alphanumeric keys. Cream ALPS for Enter, Tab, Escape and arrow keys. Linear, dampened switches (the "click leaf" removed) for the modifiers.

[mr_a500]

In my opinion, the AEK II is crap compared to the original AEK. The original is smooth and "chocky", while the AEK II feels mushy like a rubber dome. I've heard there are quality differences between the Made in USA and Made in Mexico versions of the AEK II, but both of mine are made in the USA. If the Mexico version is worse, then it must be really ****e.

I also prefer the original AEK case. The AEK II case feels much cheaper and flexes when twisted.

I'm looking to get rid of my two AEK IIs. Anybody want to trade for two originals? :wink:

[ch_123]

Well, to put it in perspective, at the time it was released, it was, like all apple products, technically superior (mechanical vs. rubber dome keyboards, SCSI vs. ATA hard drives, etc.), yet way over priced, and not actually all that superior in real world terms.

The AEK II came out in the late 80s. Given that stuff like Model Fs were still being built back then, no.

These characteristics obviously aren't for everyone, and there are probably many reasons that this was the last mechanical Apple offered.

AFAIK, there was quite a lot of backlash over the dropping of the AEK II, so I think it was just a cost cutting exercise.

The best ALPS switches are ones ALPS never made: early (blue or orange switch) contact plates with padded AEKII sliders.

I tried these, but found that it just made the Blue switches feel mushy. A lot of the tactility from Alps switches comes from the inevitable bottoming out on them.

[mr_a500]

The AEK II came out in the late 80s. Given that stuff like Model Fs were still being built back then, no.

The AEK II came out in 1990 (until '95). The original AEK was made 1987 - 1990. (...hence my theory that keyboards started to suck in the 1990's)

You're right though replying that it wasn't "technically superior". Back in the late 80's, it was merely average. Most "professional" computers back then had mechanical keyboards. Rubber dome didn't really get popular until the 90's - and Apple joined the rest of the manufacturers in cost cutting with crap rubber dome keyboards.

This whole thing about Apple products always being "technically superior" is just Apple marketing propaganda. (I believed it for a while too until I actually got some Apple products)

[ch_123]

Well, Model Fs were being made as late as 1994, so I guess my point still stands

The AEK was a mediocre keyboard with mediocre switches. Apple fanbois just feel the need to cite something as being comparable to the Model M.

[theferenc]

That's odd, mine is dated much later than that. Given the date on mine, and my experience in the early 90's being almost entirely on rubber domes, I assumed that most consumer computers in those days came with **** keyboards.

That said, you can't really compare a "professional" keyboard like the Model F or even the M to a consumer grade keyboard like the AEKII.

In its market segment, it was quite a bit better, technically speaking, than its competitors from Dell, Gateway, Compaq, and HP (not to mention packard-bell, lightspeed, and other, now defunct, brands).

If we are comparing to the pro line from those companies, as well as DEC, SGI, SUN, IBM, etc. of course it falls flat. But they are in different market segments. You also can't compare an RS6000 or AlphaStation to a home Dell PC.

For the record, I am not an apple fanboy. In fact, I mostly loathe everything the company stands for in the past year or so But you can't knock the quality of some of the hardware they were putting into home computers in the early to mid 90s. Emphasis on "some".

[ch_123]

Well, around the same time Dell had the AT101 which had the same switches as the original AEK, and was even made by the same OEM (Alps themselves), there were also Dell-branded Model Ms. Many other vendors had various sorts of Alps or Alps-like switch keyboards. And of course, the AEK and AEK II didn't come standard with Macs, they were a ~$160 optional extra. During the 90s, standard Mac keyboards were rubber sleeve designs.

[mr_a500]

That's odd, mine is dated much later than that. Given the date on mine, and my experience in the early 90's being almost entirely on rubber domes, I assumed that most consumer computers in those days came with **** keyboards.

That said, you can't really compare a "professional" keyboard like the Model F or even the M to a consumer grade keyboard like the AEKII.

AEK II - consumer grade? That keyboard came standard with computers that had obscene prices - and was an expensive option for the cheaper computers.

Yes, many early 90's PCs came with rubber dome. I was talking about the 80's. Most computers in the 80's - even most super-cheap home computers had mechanical keyboards. Apple wasn't doing anything special.

[ch_123]

As I said above, I'm pretty certain it didn't come standard with any Macintosh model. I may be wrong about that though.

[theferenc]

Regardless of price, it was aimed at the consumer, not the professional, market.

I stand corrected on the time frame, but look at the differences between consumer and pro lines of computer peripherals today for similarity. Pro monitors have more features, and a commensurately higher price. Pro computers similarly. Pro audio gear, video gear, etc.

Professional peripherals are higher quality, more features, and higher priced. Apple in the 90s was NOT professional anything. That was the only point I was trying to make.

Like it or not, I really don't care. But it was a consumer level peripheral, regardless of how you look at it. And in that class, it was one of the better keyboards at the time. Not the best, certainly, but certainly near the top of the heap.

Yes, the Model M is a better keyboard. As is the Model F. The Dell AT101 is comparable, I suppose, just different. But even that was only offered through their enterprise sales, rather than home consumer sales.

The bottom line is this: I could walk into a CompUSA or similar and walk out with an AEKII. The same cannot be said of the Model M, the AT101, anything by Cherry, or similar. And since at the time it was launched, the web itself didn't even exist yet (NB: I said web, not internet), online sales weren't even a thought at the time.

In the end, I use IBM keyboards, not Apple. But that doesn't change that it was actually quite a nice keyboard, especially for the time and its intended market.

Edit: Oh, and we aren't talking about the 80s, but rather the mid 90s. Bringing the 80s in to this is just silly, and serves no useful purpose for the discussion at hand.

[ch_123]

As far as I know, Model Ms were being sold in stores in the early 90s.



Then of course you had the keyboards that were sold as third party accessories, such as the Northgate which are probably better built than the AEK II, certainly had nicer switches.

[patrickgeekhack]

The general trend is:

- There are those who like the AEK II
- There are those who don't like the AEK II
And,
- There are those who are undecided. I am in this group for now.

The AEK was probably the greatest keyboard made by Apple in terms of feel. However, it is loud. I am pretty sure this was why Apple used the dampened sliders for the AEK II. This will explain why some have compared this keyboard to rubber dome. After all, there is a piece of rubber that cushion the keys.

[ch_123]

Alps switches aren't particularly tactile, and the hard bottoming out generates most of the noise and tactile feedback you feel when typing on one normally. If you put in those dampeners, they feel really mushy as a consequence. I tried the dampened sliders on my Blue Alps keyboards, but went back to the real deal rather promptly.

Admittedly, at the time I tried an AEK II for the first time, I was under the impression they had White Alps, so I was expecting a clicky switch, not a dampened tactile one.

[mr_a500]

Professional peripherals are higher quality, more features, and higher priced. Apple in the 90s was NOT professional anything.

You obviously are either too young to know or don't know what you're talking about. In 1990, the Mac II with extras was $10,000. At that price, it better ****ing be marketed at professionals.

Edit: Oh, and we aren't talking about the 80s, but rather the mid 90s. Bringing the 80s in to this is just silly, and serves no useful purpose for the discussion at hand.

How is it silly? We're talking about the AEK - a keyboard that was originally made in 1987. By the mid 90's, the AEK II was discontinued. Your lack of knowledge is just silly.

[ch_123]

$10,000 and yet it still only ran System 6? Oh my.

[theferenc]

Actually, we are talking about the AEKII, and have been from the OP. You were the one who brought the original in.

Also, there is absolutely no reason to become rude and offensive. I'm only 29, I admit, but that doesn't mean I don't have any knowledge of what I'm talking about.

Considering the AEKII was originally packaged with Mac IIsi, which only went for about $3K, you appear to be the one mistaken with your facts.

Also, for the record, the Mac IIsi was directed at the home market, not the professional market. So my point actually stands. It also ran up to system 7.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. The AEKII was a fairly high quality keyboard for its time, especially in the home market. There were better keyboards. You obviously don't like, and I don't care.

But your rudeness on the matter is actually quite offensive. Polite discourse is the general rule at geekhack, I've found, and so your attitude (as conveyed by your writing tone) is really quite out of the ordinary. That doesn't even get into your ad hominem comments upon my age and possible knowledge base.

There is also no reason to get worked up over this issue. We just obviously disagree.

But having taken apart and refurbished many keyboards of that time period, the AEKII is actually remarkably well built, especially for the price and the market it was serving.

[mr_a500]

I am generally not rude, but your comments: "silly" and "serves no useful purpose" were directed at me - and are obviously hostile.

My comments are still accurate. Let me point you to the professional Mac I was talking about which included the AEK II as standard (note the price):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_IIfx

[patrickgeekhack]

I'm not generally rude either but as a side effect of always being right I come across that way.

Are you the most interesting man in the world?

[Findecanor]

You also can't compare an RS6000 or AlphaStation to a home Dell PC.

The AlphaStation came with a rubber dome keyboard made by NMB. The same keyboard was bundled with many PCs of different brands.

[theferenc]

It wasn't hostile, it was simply meant to convey that we were talking about different objects. I apologize if I offended, but your response was still unreasonable.

As far as the model it came with, according to Apple itself, the IIsi was the debut of the AEKII.

The AlphaStation was in reference to the actual workstation, not the keyboard. And the AlphaStations were ABSURD in terms of raw performance. Blew almost everything except the RS6000s out of the water. And yes, I have both. The Alpha still gets use, and is still a fairly responsive system, even by modern standards.

[False_Dmitry_II]

Random question: since it was designed with the dampeners in place, would it still function as expected/correctly were they to be removed?

[kps]

No wonder the AEK II feels bad. You would, too, if everyone kept arguing about you like this.

[ch_123]

Random question: since it was designed with the dampeners in place, would it still function as expected/correctly were they to be removed?

Yes. They are largely irrelevant to the operation of the mechanism. They are otherwise identical to Black Alps.

[ch_123]

It wasn't hostile, it was simply meant to convey that we were talking about different objects. I apologize if I offended, but your response was still unreasonable.

As far as the model it came with, according to Apple itself, the IIsi was the debut of the AEKII.

The AlphaStation was in reference to the actual workstation, not the keyboard. And the AlphaStations were ABSURD in terms of raw performance. Blew almost everything except the RS6000s out of the water. And yes, I have both. The Alpha still gets use, and is still a fairly responsive system, even by modern standards.

Which model of Alphastation do you have? I'd love to have my own one, not the easiest thing to find though.

[theferenc]

It's an AS500 with the 500MHz CPU. I use it as a file/print/login server mainly.

Edit: I picked it up from University surplus a few years ago.

[Surly73]

As the thread starter, perhaps I should clarify something....

I don't mean to pass judgement on the AEK II, in general, as being something that's good or bad.  I'm a pretty new poster here, but I've been a reader for longer and so many of the things that are discussed here are 100% subjective in nature - like/disklike clicky, like/dislike tactile, like/dislike soft landing, short stroke, HHKB, compact layout, tenkeyless, blank keycaps etc...  

However in general when I encounter something that has generated buzz here, I can feel that it's special.  I'll generally be able to appreciate how some people would like it, even if I don't myself or if I'm undecided.  This individual AEK II doesn't feel very impressive despite being boxed and in excellent condition.  It simply doesn't live up to any hype whatsoever.

As already suggested, I will look up a procedure and perform a cleaning on a few switches and see if the changes are dramatic.  If they aren't, maybe the AEK II is simply REALLY not to my liking (?)  By extension, perhaps most other ALPS boards won't be then either.

[ch_123]

As already suggested, I will look up a procedure and perform a cleaning on a few switches and see if the changes are dramatic.  If they aren't, maybe the AEK II is simply REALLY not to my liking (?)  By extension, perhaps most other ALPS boards won't be then either.

You'd think that, but the clicky Alps are a definite improvement over the regular tactile ones.

[patrickgeekhack]

You'd think that, but the clicky Alps are a definite improvement over the regular tactile ones.

Clicky Alps are definitely very nice to use. I tried the ones loaned to me by KPC (blue and white clicky ALPS) and found them to be very crisp and very pleasant to type on. It's a shame that the few keyboards with clicky Alps available for sale are very expensive. I thought Alps in general was bad after my experience with black Alps, but that's not the case. One just has to find one likes best.

[mr_a500]

It wasn't hostile, it was simply meant to convey that we were talking about different objects. I apologize if I offended, but your response was still unreasonable.

If it wasn't hostile then my hostile defence was unnecessary and I apologize. I'll just blame it on the cat in your avatar - which looks very hostile. :wink:

[False_Dmitry_II]

It looks more unhappy/concerned/annoyed than hostile.

[theferenc]

Yeah, about 3 seconds after that picture was taken, he pounced on the photographer.

If you think that one looks hostile, you should see the picture of him yawning. Looks more like a snarl than a yawn, to most people.

I also apologize. To be honest, I mostly enjoyed the discussion, and I did learn a few things. It's nice to find someone that is willing to actually stand by and argue a position. Refreshing. Even if it does incorrectly come across as rude sometimes.

[woody]

Clicky Alps are definitely very nice to use.

Orange Alps in some Apple IIc keyboards are fun to type on.
Are keyboards with orange that rare?

[patrickgeekhack]

Orange Alps in some Apple IIc keyboards are fun to type on.

I have never had the chance to try one of these. I am lucky enough to have been able to try an AEK, an AEK, a blue Alps Ortek, and a white Alps Ortek. After having tried the last two, I was sad that such keyboards are not easy to get anymore. The Ortek were clicky, but suprisingly not too loud. I can see them being good for office environment.

Are keyboards with orange that rare?

I don't know, but I am under the impression that complicated ALPS keyboards are rare nowadays.

[woody]

I can't say anything definite here, not very Alps informed myself, but so far the only place I've seen the orange pretty clicking Alps switches is on Apple IIc.

[spolia optima]

Wow, this thread is filled with a lot more vitriol for the AEKII than I would expect. I thought GH loved the AEK series? =((
I've said it once, and i'll say it again: early Apple keyboards were top-notch.
Hell, the AEK and AEKII have decent NKRO... at least 6 keys IIRC. Not only that, but the pink and orange switches are some of the lighest and smoothest of all the complicated ALPS. As long as you keep them clean, that is.

For a while back, an AEK m0115 with pinks was my primary gaming 'board. The switches and NKRO together make a perfect FPS keyboard.

[patrickgeekhack]

Whether we like the AEK II or not, in my opinion, we cannot deny that a lot of thought went into the design of this keyboard. I think the AEK II was a reaction to the AEK. The latter was louder, and did not offer any height adjustment mechanism. The former was quieter, and had variable height adjustment. That said, I tend to have mine flat.

I think some Alps switches has a sweet spot as far as height/angle is concerned. If the keyboard is at the optimum height and optimum angle, and if one manage to hit the keys right in the middle, black Alps and cream Alps are very nice to type on.  The AEK (orange Alps) does not seem to be prone to the height/angle problem.

[False_Dmitry_II]

Well I just received my AEKII and iMate in the mail today.

For NKRO, we only count how many are guaranteed to work right?

In aquakeytest, I get 2KRO: ERD, GYU, IOP and some others fail. I don't know how many are just the keyboard or the adapter's fault.

However: Lots of times I can get up to 5 or 6 keys, rather than all three or four letter combinations failing only a few do. Like I can hold half the numpad down and it works fine, etc.

[Ghostpixel]

Am i the only one that likes the AEK II better with removed dampers? They sound a bit like cherry browns But then again, i dont mind bottoming out ^^.

[ch_123]

Cream Alps - Dampeners = Black Alps

[False_Dmitry_II]

Yeah, I wanted to see how hard it would be to remove the dampeners. So long story short, after an hour or two all I'd accomplished was breaking off one of the two contacts for the scroll lock. Always a good idea to mess with something that doesn't matter.

If/when I return to doing so, I'll do all of it with the suggested tools. It sure looks faster for one thing. I think when it comes time I can also solder that piece back together enough to shove back into the hole and be functional again, it was about halfway down that the thing broke.

[theferenc]

Given that I just swapped my black sliders in my dell for the cream sliders in my AEKII, if you pay to ship them, you can have my black sliders.

Potential issues:
I don't have a slider for the caps lock key.
The springs are actually a different weight. The AEKII springs are actually slightly heavier (about 10g heavier, based on measurements). This shouldn't really matter if you're just swapping sliders. But I preferred the heavier springs, so I swapped the springs too.
I'm not entirely sure if I have the proper number of sliders. I think I do, but I would have to recount.
Pulling apart the switches on the top row (F keys and Power) is a royal PITA.

[Findecanor]

Cream Alps - Dampeners = Black Alps

More or less. The "tactile leaves" and springs are not identical, but they do feel a lot similar.