Typing slower with Cherry Brown than Rubber Dome (is it just me?)

[dr/owned]

First Post! (after months of lurking)

So, I've had a Majestouch with the Cherry Brown switches for the past year or so.  Previously I'd only used Logitech rubber boards and previous to that ye-olde Dell Quietkeys.  I was expecting the heavens to part and angels to sing given the price tag on this board, but I have to say i don't think I really like it very much.  I'm looking for some feedback on my thoughts and some potential alternatives:

I type in Dvorak and with a rubber board I can maintain 100+ wpm.  With the Majestouch I feel like I have to think a lot more about each stroke and my speed has gone down to about 90-95 wpm.

Why am I thinking more?  Well, I think the keys are a bit too narrow, even for my slender fingers.  If I'm not bang on center then I feel the edge of the key and that throws me off.  The biggest issue  I think though is the keys feel chattery, so I'm always thinking "did that key actually go down".  Best way I can describe it is it feels like there's too much shock transferred through the keys when they hit bottom, and the keys almost feel paper thin.

I really do like the feel of the rubber domes.  Nice sized keys, smooth response, good feedback.  What I don't like though, and the reason why I went mechanical in the first place, is that rubber domes change their consistency on a daily basis.  Brand new rubber domes are awesome...3 years out it's like finger wrestling.

Would Topre be the way to go?  Any specific brands/models (I don't need function keys or USB ports but I do prefer black and with a numpad...oh and relatively compact footprint ie no 3 inch plastic borders)?  Budget would probably max out at $300, and I wouldn't mind ordering international to expand selection availability.

[javifast]

I can trade you some logitechs rubber domes for your filco  
Well, you can buy a Topre 86UB in http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se05c0
With numpad http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,realforce

Less than $300

[dr/owned]

Well the variable weights on the springs is out since I'm into the gaming thing.  And I'm unsure about 55g across the board too.  These Browns do feel like the appropriate weight for me, maybe I'd go even a bit less if the response was totally linear.  I think I'd really really want a light switch, near linear response, and rock solid but dull (not mushy though) response when bottomed out.  As I mentioned first post, this Majestouch feels a bit too stiff in the response before actual actuation and a bit too harsh bottoming out (or bouncy when coming back up).

How does keysize compare on the Realforce vs Majestouch?  Is there any vendors that sell 35/45 g Topre's?  (It's the whole "if I'm going to empty 2 day's pay it better be perfect )

[DeltaGunner]

Would Blue be a better thing for you, because then you really feel the actuation. But then you would have the actuation hysterisis 'cause of the double tapping "issues". Maybe try a Razer BlackWidow for a cheap blue experience?

[Tony]

Mechanical keyboards are not for everyone.

If you have used and got accustomed to qualified rubber domes as Logitech ones, you may find a Filco nothing out of ordinary.

For a Filco brown user, I have learned not to bottom out to float my fingers and type faster. If you bottom out every key, a good laptop scissor keyboard with short travel may be good for you.

Practically you have to try a lot of switches to decide which is the best for you.

[dr/owned]

Cherry Blue - The noise would probably annoy me.  And for VoIP-ing, even the Browns are crazy loud over the microphone.

Tony - That's a good reminder.  I've tried floating the keys but I just can't get used to it.  I feel like I have to keep sneaking up on the actuation point which slows me down to about 70 wpm.  My fingers get momentum that can't be stopped at high speed

A desktop board with scissor switches might indeed be the answer if I could find the right one.  I like my laptop keyboard and can get some good speeds on them, but I always feel like I'll break them and they're crunching a bit when I start going high speed.  Really wish I knew someone with a Topre that I could try out before blowing $250.  I'm definitely going to have to head to Fry's and try some scissor boards soon.

EDIT: Now I'm also thinking maybe the Cherry Reds would be a good fit...gah I want communism where there's no choice!

[NimbleRabit]

Why am I thinking more?  Well, I think the keys are a bit too narrow, even for my slender fingers.  If I'm not bang on center then I feel the edge of the key and that throws me off.  The biggest issue  I think though is the keys feel chattery, so I'm always thinking "did that key actually go down".  Best way I can describe it is it feels like there's too much shock transferred through the keys when they hit bottom, and the keys almost feel paper thin.

I agree 100% with the keys being too narrow, that's for sure,  When I first got my cherry brown board I couldn't believe how narrow these things were at the top, and it was extremely difficult for me to type on it after the keyboards I had grown used to.  I got the hang of it after a while and now I can type with about the same speed on both (faster on the cherry brown's actually), but I still wish these things weren't so damn narrow.

It sounds to me like brown's just might not be the right fit for you and you might want to look into something that requires a bit more force.  The browns are unbelievably light to me after coming from rubber domes, and if the amount of shock and clack is bothering you then you probably aren't the lightest of typists and might appreciate something that requires a bit more force.  Not sure though as I'm still pretty new to this and have only tried browns so far, just my two cents.

The experience of browns is increased a lot by typing lightly and not bottoming out on all the keys, or at least not hitting the bottom too hard.  If that's not something you're finding yourself able to do then I don't personally see that much point in them as they are significantly more annoying to type on when slamming the bottom.

[iMav]

You say you want a light switch with linear force.  That sounds like reds to me!

You could preorder a Poker with reds, but that is DEFINITELY not a full-sized 'board w/ numpad...and you'd have to wait quite a while (the upside being, you probably wouldn't have any issues reselling it if you didnt like it).  

If I were you, I'd try blacks and reds and see if either of them fit the bill.

[noodles256]

they still have full sized red filcos on amazon for about 170

[HaveANiceDay]

You can probably find a Steelseries 6gv2 to try out MX Blacks.

[keyboardlover]

Eventually there will be a full-size Leopold with reds. You may want to wait for that.

[noodles256]

Eventually there will be a full-size Leopold with reds. You may want to wait for that.

If price difference stay the same. It should be around the same price as the tenkeyless or cheaper! =]

[dr/owned]

Seems like I'm in a contradiction.  If I go with Reds (which look like Browns without the bump in response) then I'll probably still bottom out the key all day long (which is cause for my annoyances).  I've definitely tried lightening up my keystrokes from what I'm used to, but I move my fingers hard to move them fast, so they don't stop easily when they actually get to a key.  Probably me lightening up my keystrokes is what has slowed me down a little bit.  But at the same time I don't want something like the Model M, which I've used, because it's fatiguing to push each heavy key to the bottom of the earth.

On the other hand Blacks according to one guide aren't good for typing because of the linear curve.  Rubber domes supposedly are like more exaggerated Topre's when looking at the response curve, so I guess I have no idea what it feels like to type on something with a linear response.  Anyone got some good descriptors of what that feels like vs a rubber dome?

Offhand I'd say I'm leaning towards the Blacks.  I don't think I need the "bump" feedback since I bottom out anyways and that'll serve as my "stop pushing and go to another key" notice.  I'm a bit worried though that it'll affect how I game because off the top of my head I'm not sure how much I rely on the bump.  I'll have to hunt around and find some shops that sell ghetto - brand black boards to try out.  Any boards with wider keys than the Filco's and black switches?

It does definitely feel like circular logic.  Reds because they're light and fast.  Blacks because they won't bottom out as hard.  Topre because you keep the bump but it isn't so harsh and you get a bit stiffer.

[False_Dmitry_II]

Blacks are supposed to feel heavier than Model M's.

[dr/owned]

Blacks are supposed to feel heavier than Model M's.

Whoa there.  That settles that one.  Buy a Cherry board to get the doubleshot keys, then put them on my Brown board to see if that helps.  If it doesn't...go with the Reds (after trying out Blacks on a Steelseries) and I still have the extra keys to try out.

[Surly73]

Blacks are supposed to feel heavier than Model M's.

But you need to bottom out a model M to register a keystroke and you don't need to bottom out an MX black.  This may make all the difference in the world to the thread starter...

[Reaif]

This thread made me lol a bit. I think you should just buy a keyboard, try it out and see what you like/don't and go from there. If you just want to try reds, get the poker, because it is fairly cheap and it should resell easily if you don't like it. If you find that you really like reds, you could either keep the poker, or sell it and spring on a full size filco with reds. As far as blacks go, they don't move quite as fast on the classifieds here, so I would look for a cheap cherry brand board with blacks that you don't mind keeping around.

As far as the topre goes, I am in a similar boat in that I really would like to try it someday, but I am going to try most of the other switches first. I have browns currently and love them, but I am going to be trying blues, reds, and topre in that order eventually.

[Orphagn]

I like the lightness of Browns and linear feel of Reds, but I found myself bottoming out almost all the time since I tend to to type hard. I decided to give Blacks a try again and now prefer them since I don't hardly ever bottom out due to the requirement of force to actuate the key.
If you want to give Blacks a try, this is the cheapest Cherry board i've seen on Ebay with them.

[RiGS]

It is a cheap board indeed, but hard to resell.

[Orphagn]

Yeah, not a lot of people on here tend to like Black switches. And those that like them I think would prefer a Filco, Ducky or Noppoo over a Cherry 11900.

[RiGS]

The Noppoo is a good bet for sure. The mx black Noppoo is the cheapest.

[Orphagn]

I prefer using my 11900 due to it being PCB since I can mod the board with different switches if I decide to. The trackpad is great for when i'm lazy and use my PC for watching shows from my bed and controlling everything without going to my desk.

[BababooeyHTJ]

Blacks are supposed to feel heavier than Model M's.

They are, a lot heavier. I love my model M but blacks felt way too heavy to me.

[RiGS]

You are likely buttoming out on them.

[BababooeyHTJ]

How are you not supposed to bottom out once in a while especially while gaming? Blacks are so stiff that you can feel the key push against your finger the entire way back on the rebound. I'm not sure how else to describe it but it's uncomfortable. Cherry blacks feel stiffer than Alps blacks to me.

I use buckling springs with out flinching too.

[Shuki]

I wouldn't be to inclined to recommend Cherry Reds for someone who seemed to dislike the Cherry Browns.

Looks like a uniform Topre would be a perfect board for what you are looking for. However a decent rubber dome board my suit you just as well.

[RiGS]

Blacks are so stiff that you can feel the key push against your finger the entire way back on the rebound.

Mx blacks easily let you control the activation point, so you don't need to press the switch any further, and the constant increase in resistance is a very good feedback.

[Shuki]

You like Cherry MX Blacks, we get it.

[BababooeyHTJ]

Mx blacks easily let you control the activation point, so you don't need to press the switch any further, and the constant increase in resistance is a very good feedback.

The main problem that I would have with the stiff, linear keystroke it that it is too easy actuate the key twice by mistake due to the pressure of the spring if you twitch your finger on the way up or while trying to not bottom out. The actuation point is also very high so it's easy to hit adjacent keys by mistake.

It just wasn't my cup of tea but there is no way of knowing without trying one.

I honestly think that the op should try a board with buckling springs. He might like it. There is no wondering if you hit a key on a Model M. You can pick on up for a good price on fleabay and a new Unicomp isn't too expensive either. I actually think that owning a Model M should be a prerequisite for registration here. :tongue:

[RiGS]

Well, practice makes a man perfect. This is especially true for all linear switches, they certainly have a learning curve.

[dr/owned]

I honestly think that the op should try a board with buckling springs. He might like it. There is no wondering if you hit a key on a Model M. You can pick on up for a good price on fleabay and a new Unicomp isn't too expensive either. I actually think that owning a Model M should be a prerequisite for registration here. :tongue:

I have a Model M and I just don't like it.  The keys sound horrible and resonate (both in sound and the key vibrating) when they go down because of the springs snapping.  It might not be a bad board for average typists, but it's also not fast enough in my opinion for > 60 wpm.  It also definitely feels like I'm pushing down on a really long spring...like a gun with a really long trigger pull it gets annoying.  That's why when someone said earlier in this thread Blacks are like the Model M, my reaction is hell no I don't want that.

I also did a bit of typing on my laptop to get the scissor key feel again.  I think in the long run a short stroke would fatigue me and it's a bit too much "all or nothing".  Even though I bottom out these Brown's non stop it's still nice to have some travel distance.  The more I think of it, the more I probably will decide on the reds, after first giving the double shot keys a try.

[Tony]

If you type bottomed out each key, then any Cherry switches, even red or brown are not for you. They all have the full 4mm travel distance, with register point about 2mm.

Scissor keyboards have 2mm bottom out and you are used to that, so that's clear that mech keyboards are NOT for you if you want to type bottomed out and fast on them.

[dr/owned]

If you type bottomed out each key, then any Cherry switches, even red or brown are not for you. They all have the full 4mm travel distance, with register point about 2mm.

Scissor keyboards have 2mm bottom out and you are used to that, so that's clear that mech keyboards are NOT for you if you want to type bottomed out and fast on them.

Any geekhackers manage to type faster than 110 wpm on a mechanical board (which is about where I can peak on this Brown, but it rolls off as I get paranoid about my keystrokes and think more)?

[False_Dmitry_II]

Sound horrible and resonate? I'm no expert on that, but that model m could be in need of a bolt mod.

Also, you may want to try some random Alps board. A Dell AT101 should be easy to get and has no click.

[NimbleRabit]

Any geekhackers manage to type faster than 110 wpm on a mechanical board (which is about where I can peak on this Brown, but it rolls off as I get paranoid about my keystrokes and think more)?

I can pretty consistently do 130 on my browns when taking this test: http://speedtest.10-fast-fingers.com/

That's going all out and trying to go as fast fast as I can, but I can do about 110 pretty leisurely and without always bottoming out, or at least bottoming out more softly when I do.

[RiGS]

If you type bottomed out each key, then any Cherry switches, even red or brown are not for you. They all have the full 4mm travel distance, with register point about 2mm.

Scissor keyboards have 2mm bottom out and you are used to that, so that's clear that mech keyboards are NOT for you if you want to type bottomed out and fast on them.

The travel of the switches can be shorten by modding the keycaps with dental bands, or o-rings.

[dr/owned]

The travel of the switches can be shorten by modding the keycaps with dental bands, or o-rings.

Oh I like that idea....ebay here i come.

[Peter]

Cherry Blues = 'Cheap' buckling spring rip-off (or rather 'wannabe rip-off'
Cherry Browns = Same colour as another thing that sometimes is brown ..
(starts with a S and ends in T .. Sorry, but IMO browns are CRAP)
Cherry Black (and Red) = AWESOME !!
Especially if you bottom out, fex because you learned to type properly on a old-school mechanical typewriter ..

[hcry4]

Cherry Blues = 'Cheap' buckling spring rip-off (or rather 'wannabe rip-off'
Cherry Browns = Same colour as another thing that sometimes is brown ..
(starts with a S and ends in T .. Sorry, but IMO browns are CRAP)
Cherry Black (and Red) = AWESOME !!
Especially if you bottom out, fex because you learned to type properly on a old-school mechanical typewriter ..

Initial thought after reading comment and name

[phillip]

I can pretty consistently do 130 on my browns when taking this test: http://speedtest.10-fast-fingers.com/

That's going all out and trying to go as fast fast as I can, but I can do about 110 pretty leisurely and without always bottoming out, or at least bottoming out more softly when I do.

I constantly **** up on that test.  98 is what I can get there.  I'm pretty sure I type faster as a normal thing though.  I dunno.

[Chobopants]

I constantly **** up on that test.  98 is what I can get there.  I'm pretty sure I type faster as a normal thing though.  I dunno.

Yeah I really suck at that test. I hate that it shifts the words when you're on the last word and I can't read ahead, that really holds me back. I find type racer much more interesting as a typing test.

I get around 95-100 on that one. Type Racer I average around 120. I'm still a little faster on my Apple Aluminum than my Filco since I've been on Apple chiclets for 3-4 years now and only a few months on a Filco. That said, I'm noticing rapid speed gains on my Filco and wouldn't be surprised if I am faster on it in a couple months once I replace my work Apple keyboard with my Realforce on Monday.

http://play.typeracer.com/

[Rairden]

I had a rubber dome, then got the filco brown and my typing speed went up tremendously.  I used to average 80-90.  But after just one week of practice on the filco, maybe two weeks, I average 110 now.

I bottom out all the time.  In fact, if I try to not bottom out it reduces my result by 10 wpm.  It's easier on fingers and endurance.  Also I found out that as the test goes on my bottoming out becomes greater and greater so I have to remind myself to stop banging on the keys because it ends up slowing me down.

I've had dozens of 118, 119, and 120's doing that test.  I just cannot break that barrier of mid 120's.  130 is my new goal before the end of this year.

[Peter]

Initial thought after reading comment and name

I couldn't see the vid so I'm not sure what your point was,
however I could see that you are from Kaliforniah.. So there probably wasn't one !

[phillip]

Yeah I really suck at that test. I hate that it shifts the words when you're on the last word and I can't read ahead, that really holds me back. I find type racer much more interesting as a typing test.

I get around 95-100 on that one. Type Racer I average around 120. I'm still a little faster on my Apple Aluminum than my Filco since I've been on Apple chiclets for 3-4 years now and only a few months on a Filco. That said, I'm noticing rapid speed gains on my Filco and wouldn't be surprised if I am faster on it in a couple months once I replace my work Apple keyboard with my Realforce on Monday.

http://play.typeracer.com/

I'll check that test out.  So far I've been doing them at work on browns but maybe I'll try some of my other boards at home.  Maybe another day though, my left elbow has been hurting all day for some reason

[DeltaGunner]

I get 50 WPM but i have always been a slow typer though i do type blind, maybe mechs will improve my speed.

[NimbleRabit]

Yeah I really suck at that test. I hate that it shifts the words when you're on the last word and I can't read ahead, that really holds me back. I find type racer much more interesting as a typing test.

I get around 95-100 on that one. Type Racer I average around 120. I'm still a little faster on my Apple Aluminum than my Filco since I've been on Apple chiclets for 3-4 years now and only a few months on a Filco. That said, I'm noticing rapid speed gains on my Filco and wouldn't be surprised if I am faster on it in a couple months once I replace my work Apple keyboard with my Realforce on Monday.

http://play.typeracer.com/

I find type racer more interesting too, but all the weird words and extra keys can get annoying and don't seem great for just purely measuring speed.  I like both of them though, and average around 110 on typeracer.

[spolia optima]

90wpm is pretty f**king fast, dude.

[HaveANiceDay]

I get 50 WPM but i have always been a slow typer though i do type blind, maybe mechs will improve my speed.

Only practice will.

[dr/owned]

I bottom out all the time.  In fact, if I try to not bottom out it reduces my result by 10 wpm.  It's easier on fingers and endurance.  Also I found out that as the test goes on my bottoming out becomes greater and greater so I have to remind myself to stop banging on the keys because it ends up slowing me down.

+1 on that.  I'm going to first give the dental bands a shot to see if that reduces the shock of bottoming out.  If that doesn't work...double shot keys from a Cherry board.  If that doesn't work...try a Steelseries Black somewhere.  If that doesn't work...Red or Topre.  There goes my tax refund.

RE: Speed.  My bro can do 115 with a rubber dome in qwerty.  Not sure how since he doesn't type any more than I do and I should have dvorak and a mechanical working towards my advantage.  Both I think do more for comfort than speed in my case.

Oh and I tried some speed tests on my laptop today.  I can do 110 pretty easily but I hit bottom pretty hard and the short key strokes makes me go "ahhhhh shock" when it hits hard, which causes more mistakes.

[7bit]

First Post! (after months of lurking)
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