Author Topic: What this country needs is a $5 Realforce  (Read 21327 times)

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Offline speakeasy

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What this country needs is a $5 Realforce
« Reply #50 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 15:59:22 »
deflate the currency and it just might happen
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Offline .XL

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What this country needs is a $5 Realforce
« Reply #51 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 16:29:10 »
Quote from: elef;327541
Except that it does. The fact that high quality products get made in China (alongside the midrange stuff and enormous mountains of absolute garbage) doesn't change the simple fact that stuff made in Japan is never going to be as cheap as roughly equivalent stuff made in China. Cheap labour is cheap labour.

I'm not even going to mention the fact that if "most of them are consumed in the country", then they aren't going to matter much to this forums North American and European members.


Except that it doesn't. Think seriously this time. What do you think would be better quality, a $200 board built in Japan, or a $200 board built in China? The board in China. Why? Because the labor is cheaper. Why does this matter? Cheaper labor means more money towards better quality parts.

Too many people still see China as cheap, bad quality goods. That's not the case. That's borne of ignorance to the way their market and production methods have changed.

Production in areas around Beijing, Shanghai, and even down in Guangdong near Hong Kong has reached the same costs as Japan. The coasts of China have the expensive labor. The difference between, for example, a Realforce built in China and one built in Japan would be just the final assembly. All the parts will still be made in Malaysia/Indonesia/Taiwan/South Korea/Philippines. And the assembly isn't the part of the process that determines overall quality - the same quality assembly can be done by a $0.05 an hour worker in China and a $5 an hour worker in Japan.

And in respect to the last part, yes it does. People still buy Ducky and Nopoo keyboards here, despite their manufacturing and market being in China. W

To the poster who mentioned $50 buckling spring keyboards built in China...I guarantee a BS board built in China that costs the same as a BS board here from Unicomp will be of better quality.

If you buy cheap Chinese goods, you will get something that is of low quality. Same thing as goods built anywhere else in the world. If you buy high quality goods, no matter where they are built they will be of good quality. What I'm saying is in China they can build the same quality for cheaper, due to labor  and due to ramping up high production runs. Realforce boards are built in low production runs on purpose to keep the prices down...if they built 5x as many they would have to charge much less. If that patent expires any time soon (I doubt it) and a firm in China picks it up, I'm sure they'd be able to produce the board at cheaper prices and at the same quality level.
Keyboards: Filco Majestouch-2 87key Browns - Realforce 103UB 55g - Compaq MX11800 (ghetto clears + doubleshots)

Offline .XL

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What this country needs is a $5 Realforce
« Reply #52 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 16:40:20 »
Quote from: The Solutor;327542
I pay a reasonably well built rubber dome keyboard something like 3.5 €, here in Italy. After the shipment cost, the import fees,  and anything else...

So , I presume that one of those keyboards doesn't cost more than 40/50 cents at the origin.

Considering that feel free to add more restrictive tolerance, better plastics, better quality control, the metal spring and so on a topre keyboard should fit in the 5€ price range, if built in china.

I suppose they are built in Japan so you have to multiply that number by a factor of 4 or 5, so probably the raw cost of a topre keyboard is around the 20/25 euro mark.

The rest is just marketing.


Totally false. Realforce marketing is extremely little, so that price is negligible. The high price comes from the low production run of these boards. Think about it...would an individual spring cost less if you build 500 a month, or 5000? What about 500,000? Now what about the rubber domes themselves...the example you used was probably a rubber dome that came as a generic keyboard, with a run of some 500,000 a month. The more keyboards built, the less you will have to pay per keyboard. That SAME exact keyboard, if built in a specialty factory that only makes 500 a month, will end up costing over 100USD easily.

The difference in prices comes from production runs, not just quality.

Now lets look at differences in quality... cheap plastic used on the generic rubber dome boards may cost something like $5000/ton (for example). The plastic used on the Realforces costs much more than that, let's say $15000 a ton. It's the same concept as real vs. synthetic leather - one costs much more because it is of better quality using higher quality ingredients and production methods, while the other is much cheaper to produce due to easier production and much lower quality ingredients.

All those things you listed make it much more than $5. An actual Realforce, taking all marketing/production/quality control/fixed and variable expenses/etc will probably cost somewhere in the ballpark of $80. Could even be more.

Look at the keycaps that imsto sells from KBC. They have free marketing, free distribution channels, no fixed costs, low variable costs, and still $40 (assuming their profits on each set are very low, this is a high cost product). If KBC pbt keycaps cost $40, imagine how much they would cost Realforce, who then needs to move them to their factory and put them into a board containing MUCH more high quality plastic than just keycaps, as well as then pay for marketing, all expenses, for the rest of the product's parts, etc etc etc.

Stop Realforce bashing man, it's obvious you don't understand how 'high quality' and 'luxury' items work. If you're *****ing so much about Realforce price point, just keep typing on your Cherry board and leave everyone else alone.
Keyboards: Filco Majestouch-2 87key Browns - Realforce 103UB 55g - Compaq MX11800 (ghetto clears + doubleshots)

Offline ch_123

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What this country needs is a $5 Realforce
« Reply #53 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 17:03:36 »
Quote from: The Solutor;327542
I pay a reasonably well built rubber dome keyboard something like 3.5 €, here in Italy. After the shipment cost, the import fees,  and anything else...

So , I presume that one of those keyboards doesn't cost more than 40/50 cents at the origin.

Considering that feel free to add more restrictive tolerance, better plastics, better quality control, the metal spring and so on a topre keyboard should fit in the 5€ price range, if built in china.

I suppose they are built in Japan so you have to multiply that number by a factor of 4 or 5, so probably the raw cost of a topre keyboard is around the 20/25 euro mark.

The rest is just marketing.


Out of curiosity, how much should a buckling spring keyboard cost?

Offline .XL

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« Reply #54 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 17:07:03 »
Quote from: ch_123;327586
Out of curiosity, how much should a buckling spring keyboard cost?


Careful: I bet he's never tried one. But I'm sure he'll form an opinion to the quality of the board anyway. He probably thinks it is crap because it is old technology and made in the US (we make Chevy's...everything else has gotta suck too, right??)
Keyboards: Filco Majestouch-2 87key Browns - Realforce 103UB 55g - Compaq MX11800 (ghetto clears + doubleshots)

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #55 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 17:07:56 »
Clearly you've never heard of the Socratic method...

Offline .XL

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« Reply #56 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 17:13:58 »
Quote from: ch_123;327588
Clearly you've never heard of the Socratic method...


So crates, or not so crates. That is the question.
Keyboards: Filco Majestouch-2 87key Browns - Realforce 103UB 55g - Compaq MX11800 (ghetto clears + doubleshots)

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #57 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 18:07:33 »
Quote
Out of curiosity, how much should a buckling spring keyboard cost?


The BS keyboard are still the best keyboard out there, and unlike the topres are difficult to build with a lot of automation so the actual price is fair enough especially considering that are now built by a relatively small company like unicomp.
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Offline .XL

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« Reply #58 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 18:16:53 »
Quote from: The Solutor;327624
The BS keyboard are still the best keyboard out there, and unlike the topres are difficult to build with a lot of automation so the actual price is fair enough especially considering that are now built by a relatively small company like unicomp.


I was suprised by the positive nature of your response. But that last part gets me...small company like unicomp. What is Topre, fortune 500?
Keyboards: Filco Majestouch-2 87key Browns - Realforce 103UB 55g - Compaq MX11800 (ghetto clears + doubleshots)

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #59 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 18:18:48 »
Quote
He probably thinks it is crap because it is old technology


My English is surely not good enough, but seem that you are a poor reader.

Where I supposedly wrote that a topre keyboard is "crap"?

I wrote that is OVERPRICED, is a bit different word than crap.

Quote
and made in the US



Do you really thing that the people outside the US thinks symmetrical relatively to the US people ?

You can't be more wrong.

Quote
we make Chevy's


Don't worry about the stone age American cars, someone in Italy is managing to share its knowledge to you, just wait a couple of years an then look what Chrysler can build.
« Last Edit: Sat, 09 April 2011, 18:21:16 by The Solutor »
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Offline keyboardlover

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What this country needs is a $5 Realforce
« Reply #60 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 18:20:56 »
I am looking forward to alfa's return to the US, if it ever happens. I want a giulia!

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #61 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 18:26:32 »
Let us look at a buckling spring keyboard (Model M style) -

ABS casing
PBT keycaps with sublimation printing
Plastic upper assembly
Springs
Small plastic hammers
Membrane contact sheets
A metal backplate
A controller

Let us look at a Topre keyboard -

ABS casing
PBT keycaps with sublimation printing
Plastic upper assembly
Sliders
Rubber domes (some individual)
Springs
PCB with capacitive sensors
A metal backplate
A controller

Now, in terms of the switching unit, instead of springs with plastic hammers, we have sliders over rubber domes over springs. I think it's safe to say that these are equivalent in terms of cost. Then you have the contact mechanism. Now, no matter what way you twist it, a PCB is more expensive that three sheets of thin plastic. Then you have to consider the cost of the capacitive sensing, which once again, no matter what way you twist it is more significant than putting a few traces on said sheets of plastic. Oh, and then the controller has to deal with said capactive switching which again is not as simple as dealing with simple open/close electric switches.

If you think a Model M cannot be machine assembled, I suggest opening one. Producing an upper assembly involves inserting buckling springs into the upper assembly (the thing is design such that this process is pretty hard to get wrong), pressing the sheets over them, then the metal backplate, and then securing them together with plastic rivets. Given that the rivets are actually a part of the upper assembly and not something that is inserted into the fray, this means that the bulk of this is already done by machine, and I'd be very surprised if the rest of it wasn't done likewise. Aside from that, you have the standard stuff of fitting the assembly into the case and putting on keycaps. Remind me what was so hard about that?
« Last Edit: Sat, 09 April 2011, 18:28:45 by ch_123 »

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #62 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 18:36:33 »
Quote
Now, in terms of the switching unit, instead of springs with plastic hammers, we have sliders over rubber domes over springs. I think it's safe to say that these are equivalent in terms of cost


Ok, let say you are right here.

The final price of the basic Unicomp keyboard is 79$, the final price of the basic topre model is 215$

Something is still wrong here, isn't it ?
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #63 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 18:40:44 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;327636
I am looking forward to alfa's return to the US, if it ever happens. I want a giulia!




Likely it will happen, but likely the Alfa brand will be used to recycle the old Chrysler platform, as already happened with the new Lancia Thema, which is basically a slightly facelifted Chrysler 300C
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Offline .XL

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What this country needs is a $5 Realforce
« Reply #64 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 18:52:37 »
Quote from: The Solutor;327635
My English is surely not good enough, but seem that you are a poor reader.

Where I supposedly wrote that a topre keyboard is "crap"?

I wrote that is OVERPRICED, is a bit different word than crap.


I was trying to steer that a different way, since it's obvious you wouldn't call a $79 board overpriced...

Quote from: The Solutor;327635
Do you really thing that the people outside the US thinks symmetrical relatively to the US people ?

You can't be more wrong.


Not quite sure on what you're trying to say here...

Quote from: The Solutor;327635
Don't worry about the stone age American cars, someone in Italy is managing to share its knowledge to you, just wait a couple of years an then look what Chrysler can build.


Stone age? Some are fantastic. Like the Chevy ZR1 that can keep up with your Ferraris. What about the new Cadillacs? Some of the best production sedans in the market...can keep up with M6 and RS6.

The best thing to come out of Italy is the Lamborghini...and that only became the best when it left Italy and went to Germany!

Ferrari also has German engineering. Same as Alfas do. I'd still never buy an Alfa Romeo...I've known too many people that have had issues with them. My cousin had a GT and sold it for a Focus RS. Those Alfa grilles are ugly.
Keyboards: Filco Majestouch-2 87key Browns - Realforce 103UB 55g - Compaq MX11800 (ghetto clears + doubleshots)

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #65 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 18:54:19 »
Quote from: The Solutor;327642
Ok, let say you are right here.

The final price of the basic Unicomp keyboard is 79$, the final price of the basic topre model is 215$

Something is still wrong here, isn't it ?


Let's fill up some of the distance -

The finish on Topre keyboards is probably the best of any currently produced keyboard. The Unicomps on the other hand could be euphemistically described as "unpolished"

Unicomp has a pretty substantive back-stock of parts from the IBM/Lexmark days when the keyboards were mass produced, which means that even if they are a small company, their production costs are somewhat subsidized by their predecessor companies. I'd also bet that Unicomp shifts more keyboards than Topre by virtue of the number of terminal keyboards they make. Economies of scale and all that.

We still haven't really established just how much the capacitive sensing is going to cost. In terms of contacts, a Model M is no different from a rubber dome keyboard. In some ways, your $80 Unicomp is just like the $5 rubber dome except with higher build quality and springs with hammers replacing the rubber domes. If you start adding in electronic complexity, as with the Topre, the price will be much higher.

I can't say I agree with the pricing of the Topre. I think $200 is probably a more sane upper limit. My issue though is claims that the Topre is only worth $5, or even the same as a Unicomp, or even the same as something like a $140 Ducky (which is a comically bad value proposition compared with an $80, but I digress), for the simple reason that you are getting a better built keyboard with a far more elaborate switching mechanism.

Now, you can debate the merits of this switching mechanism, you can ask whether it is good enough to be worth the price or whether they should have bothered making something that is so expensive. But that's a different debate to what is going on here.

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #66 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 19:02:53 »
Quote from: .XL;327653

Not quite sure on what you're trying to say here...


I think that too often the US people refuses to appreciate the foreign products just because they are made outside the US, while in Europe many people consider the "Made in USA" label an added value.

Personally I couldn't care less about the product provenience.

I buy what  I like , what I consider well built and with a price that matches the product quality.
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Offline .XL

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« Reply #67 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 19:06:36 »
Quote from: The Solutor;327660
I think that too often the US people refuses to appreciate the foreign products just because they are made outside the US, while in Europe many people consider the "Made in USA" label an added value.

Personally I couldn't care less about the product provenience.

I buy what  I like , what I consider well built and with a price that matches the product quality.


A friend of mine actually said this exact thing to me. Everyone in Europe wants made in Germany or USA things, and refuses made in China stuff. Big mistake if you ask me...

I think you may be in the wrong forum if you're looking for the Americans that own only US products. Everyone here, with the exception of 'Microsoft Windows,' has shiny new mech boards made in Asia.

I think that first paragraph of yours sums up the biggest misconception about Americans. We all love foreign products...walk into a Walmart and maybe 1% of the items are actually made in the US. You won't find many things here that are actually made here...

And all the best American cars, bar the Corvette, Mustang, and Cadillacs, are the EU models. I'd kill for a Focus RS!
Keyboards: Filco Majestouch-2 87key Browns - Realforce 103UB 55g - Compaq MX11800 (ghetto clears + doubleshots)

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #68 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 19:48:49 »
Quote from: ch_123;327654


We still haven't really established just how much the capacitive sensing is going to cost.


Basically just a different controller chip that nowadays  will cost a bit more more on the topres because the the production scale is narrower, but don't expect huge differences, maybe a 2$ chip v.s. a 1$ chip.

Quote
I'd also bet that Unicomp shifts more keyboards than Topre by virtue of the number of terminal keyboards they make. Economies of scale and all that.


The egg and the chicken problem here: high prices because few units sold or few units sold because the high prices ?

Quote
I can't say I agree with the pricing of the Topre. I think $200 is probably a more sane upper limit. My issue though is claims that the Topre is only worth $5, or even the same as a Unicomp, or even the same as something like a $140 Ducky (which is a comically bad value proposition compared with an $80, but I digress), for the simple reason that you are getting a better built keyboard with a far more elaborate switching mechanism.


I think yuou are mixing the final product evaluation with the production costs.

They are two completely different matter.

A product can be considered the best of the best, being also the cheapest to build and viceversa.

Think to a VHS tape V.S. a DVD/BDRrom media the quality of the latter is way better than the former but a tape is a way more expensive media to build and to duplicate.

The same will apply to the keyboard market: a Topre can be the best product you can get and also one of the less complicated/expensive way to build a keyboard.
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #69 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 19:59:32 »
Quote
A friend of mine actually said this exact thing to me. Everyone in Europe wants made in Germany or USA things, and refuses made in China stuff. Big mistake if you ask me...

 I think you may be in the wrong forum if you're looking for the Americans that own only US products. Everyone here, with the exception of 'Microsoft Windows,' has shiny new mech boards made in Asia.


I'm not so sure your opinion is the same of the average Joe one.

Just look @ the engadget's comments whenever a new new nokia phone is launched, or whenever a new version of Opera is available.

Even in the Linux world, where all is supposedly a community/international project, the challenge between Gnome and Kde is often perceived as an EU. V.S. US challenge.

Then, surely the Asian products are widespread in both Europe or America, whatever European and American people thinks about the foreign products they have to buy them.
« Last Edit: Sat, 09 April 2011, 20:09:27 by The Solutor »
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Offline AgentHeavy

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What this country needs is a $5 Realforce
« Reply #70 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 20:08:46 »
Quote from: ripster;327691
You guys can sure argue for a long time without any data.

This is a pretty spendy PCB. [...]

Spendy, and clean !

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #71 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 20:09:01 »
Quote from: ripster;327691
You guys can sure argue for a long time without any data.

This is a pretty spendy PCB.


It's a PCB, surely not the cheapest in the world, but otherwise nothing special.

Think to the cost of a basic mainboard: 8 layers PCB, very high frequencies management, lot of electronics and  connectors on it and some of them are in the 30$ price range.
« Last Edit: Sat, 09 April 2011, 20:11:15 by The Solutor »
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #72 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 21:41:53 »
Quote from: ripster;327722
And volumes in millions.


Obviously the volume matters, but topre is not a basement based artisan/hacker.

Is still a big company which presumably sells thousands of pieces per year
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #73 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 21:53:05 »
This country needs a $3 beam spring. Discuss.

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #74 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 21:59:27 »
Quote from: ch_123;327730
This country needs a $3 beam spring. Discuss.


Likely a bunch of modern options (better look, media controls, usb hub, wireless option, backlight, and so on) and an European distributor are more needed than a lower price in the BS area.
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Offline mtl

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« Reply #75 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 22:06:40 »
Topre has to make up for R&D costs, whereas Unicomp inherited the Model M. Also Topre has to develop the keyboard controller software. So does Filco, but MX switches have been around for so long, I doubt any MX keyboard manufacturer develops their controller logic from scratch.
MX13 SpaceSaver | Phantom | Tactoblack Filco -10 | Realforce 103U-UW | Variable Clicky Deck 82 | Deck Legend

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #76 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 22:09:07 »
Quote from: ripster;327734
Solutor should try a Realforce.   They're quite nice.  Probably better than a Xarmor.


When they will build a backlit version (presumably a 500$ keyboard because the exclusive violet hue) I'll consider it.

BTW you should try this keyboard.



ATM is still the n1 keyboard in my personal rating.

A bit more expensive than a topre one, but you will get a bundled notebook for free...:smile:
« Last Edit: Sat, 09 April 2011, 22:18:25 by The Solutor »
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Offline Larry Dallas

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« Reply #77 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 22:09:33 »
Quote from: ripster;327509
It's expensive because it IS built in Japan.  And Japan isn't a third world country like China.


It's expensive because that's how much people will pay. There's no doubt it costs more to make a Realforce than a regular rubber dome board, but you couldn't say it's exponential relative to retail price. Before a factory is built, before parts are purchased, the retail price has been set and focus groups have decided what that price will have to be for people to buy the product with a reasonable profit made. An excellent example of this is the fashion industry, in which a $900 handbag might be made in the same factory as a $20 knockoff, with the same production costs.

Anyone who's old enough will remember how people used to always joke about the poor quality of cheap Japanese products in the early '80s. Now, people associate Japanese products with quality. I deal with Chinese products everyday, you can get well-made, high quality products, or you can get crap, it depends on what you want to buy. There are still many parts of China that are third world, but quality of life has been steadily improving in a lot of places. The property values in Beijing, for example, are outrageous. It would be cheaper to buy in London or New York, a lot of western people are moving to China for higher paying jobs.

As quality of life has increased on the east coast of China has improved, cheap property and cheap labor have become more scarce. The workers in the eastern factories like Foxconn in Shenzhen, where ipads and iPhones are made, are all brought in from rural provinces. New factories are all built in central and western provinces now, and companies from Taiwan, Japan and Korea (known in the business world as the "Asian Tigers") are more and more building factories in Vietnam and Cambodia. It may not be too many more years before Chinese products lose the low quality stigma.

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #78 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 22:11:26 »
Quote from: mtl;327745
Topre has to make up for R&D costs, whereas Unicomp inherited the Model M. Also Topre has to develop the keyboard controller software. So does Filco, but MX switches have been around for so long, I doubt any MX keyboard manufacturer develops their controller logic from scratch.


Right but they are not Intel or AMD that are forced to reinvent the wheel every 3 months
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Offline hcry4

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« Reply #79 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 22:23:51 »
How many of your 31000+ posts is of this pic?

Offline Surly73

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« Reply #80 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 10:21:43 »
Quote from: .XL;327563
If you buy cheap Chinese goods, you will get something that is of low quality. Same thing as goods built anywhere else in the world. If you buy high quality goods, no matter where they are built they will be of good quality. What I'm saying is in China they can build the same quality for cheaper, due to labor  and due to ramping up high production runs.

A lot of crap is made in China, but just because it's made in China doesn't mean it's crap.  I get that.

My "problem" with China produced goods is the secondary effects.  Lack of environmental controls, standards, regulation and corruption leading to toxic waste and lead paints in kids toys, massive pollution, poison in dog food and that sort of thing.  They can get away with it, so they do.  Even with "labour costs", how is it possibly cheaper to ship the raw materials across an ocean, process it into dog food, then ship it all the way back?  There should be hardly any labour at all in an automated dog food plant and a hell of a lot of fossil fuel will be consumed in the shipping.  IMO, it's cheaper because there are no controls and they fill it with sub-standard crap that shouldn't even be legal.

Of course once all of the controls and regulations are in place, it won't be cheaper any longer.
« Last Edit: Sun, 10 April 2011, 10:23:47 by Surly73 »

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #81 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 10:26:25 »
Next switch poll should have cherry mx red, cherry mx clear and cherry mx ergo clear as separate choices. Also, it should be a public poll =)

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #82 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 11:58:58 »
I think it makes sense for this type of poll though...people are generally proud of their  favorite switch anyway :D

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #83 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 12:05:52 »
Did you watch Midgets vs. Mascots yet?

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #84 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 12:06:36 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;327953
I think it makes sense for this type of poll though...people are generally proud of their  favorite switch anyway :D


People are generally proud about anything costly already bought.

It's usually hard to admit having spent a large amount of money in something that is not worth or simply in something the doesn't fits the personal needs.

No matter if the object is a car, a keyboard or anything else.
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #85 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 12:14:45 »
Quote from: ripster;327961
I like my Chinese DealExtreme $18 one better than this.  It's fullsize.  This one has squashed right side keys.
Show Image


I'm speaking about the tactile feeling, that be sure is far away than the one of your deal extreme, but also there's nothing wrong in the layout of the X100s keyboard (well... the photo is taken from the internet so the shown photo has the wrong ANSI layout)

That said i consider the full size thing more applicable to other  than a keyboard :smile:
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #86 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 12:18:06 »
Quote from: ripster;327964
So anyhoo, back to the topic at hand.


Back to the topic, I really like the kalrykh's yellow keyboard.

Not because is a topre but because I like the yellow things. :smile:
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #87 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 12:40:12 »
Yellow is a creepy color. People who like yellow creep me out.

I like blue. Blue is cool.

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #88 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 12:44:51 »
Quote from: ripster;327975
If you look at the Scissor switch wiki you'll see Lenovo uses the same cheap scissor parts every other manufacturer does.


You already learned that this is a wrong assumption.

#1 because the thinkpad keyboard are better than the other scissors one.

#2 because the thinkpad keyboards are not all the same.

This is my X200's Chycony keyboard (better than any HP,Dell,Acer, whatever, but not the best)



This one is the same keyboard built by NMB (better than almost anything else)



This is the Edge 11 keyboard, also built by NMB, even better.



Some models have a third OEM, usually ALPS, never tried it but should be in the middle.
« Last Edit: Sun, 10 April 2011, 12:53:25 by The Solutor »
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #89 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 12:46:25 »
Damn, those are some perky nubs!

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #90 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 13:16:14 »
Quote from: ripster;327995
Looks just like the $18 DealExtremes!


Every time I go to some media store, I spend some of my time touching every keyboard I can.

No one of the one I touched is nearly as good as the thinkpad one so If you got a thinkpad like for 18$ you are a very lucky guy.
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Offline theferenc

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« Reply #91 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 13:44:04 »
OK, both of you...have you each used both keyboards in question?

Even if you have, stop stating opinion as fact. For some, the TP keyboard is amazing. For others, it's trash. I hate cherries, you hate buckling springs, he hates topres, she hates ALPS, whatever.

Keyboards are actually a lot like cars in that what one person finds a necessity, others find useless, or downright uncomfortable. You might drive an SL500, I might think that's absurd, while you find my Focus feels like a downright toy (disclosure, I love my Focus). You might want built in nav, I might prefer an aftermarket.

It's all preference. There are objective facts about keyboards. But "board feel" is not one of them.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #92 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 13:53:42 »
Quote from: theferenc;328020
OK, both of you...have you each used both keyboards in question?

Even if you have, stop stating opinion as fact. For some, the TP keyboard is amazing. For others, it's trash. I hate cherries, you hate buckling springs, he hates topres, she hates ALPS, whatever.

Keyboards are actually a lot like cars in that what one person finds a necessity, others find useless, or downright uncomfortable. You might drive an SL500, I might think that's absurd, while you find my Focus feels like a downright toy (disclosure, I love my Focus). You might want built in nav, I might prefer an aftermarket.

It's all preference. There are objective facts about keyboards. But "board feel" is not one of them.


You are obviously right, but a "discussion forum" is meant to share opinions.

If you purge  the opinions about the keyboard feel from a forum like this you probably will get a forum with zero messages.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #93 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 14:17:08 »
For whatever reason, whether it be the quality of the scissor switch implementation, the keycaps, the construction of the keyboard unit or whatever, some laptop keyboards feel much better than others to type on. Thinkpads have some of the better ones. Vaios (in either consumer or business variety) tend to have some pretty dire, wobbly keys.

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #94 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 14:31:28 »
Quote from: ch_123;328040
For whatever reason, whether it be the quality of the scissor switch implementation, the keycaps, the construction of the keyboard unit or whatever, some laptop keyboards feel much better than others to type on. Thinkpads have some of the better ones. Vaios (in either consumer or business variety) tend to have some pretty dire, wobbly keys.


I think that the "whatever reason" is the IBM heritage.

With few exceptions an IBM keyboard is almost always better than any similar keyboard, no matter how technology they use.

The same applies also to Olivetti who shared with IBM the role of best typewriter maker.
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #95 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 14:34:06 »
EVERYONE loves American poop culture!

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #96 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 15:40:03 »
Quote from: ripster;328064

Kinda like Olivetti.  Americans think EU countries are so socialist they might as well be communist.


And then ?
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Offline Pylon

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« Reply #97 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 18:23:35 »
This is what happens when the bourgeoisie control the means of production.

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #98 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 18:41:04 »
Quote from: ripster;328175
In Soviet Russia THIS is what happens.

The $1000 Optimus Maximus.
Show Image


Here you are paying for good design.  And Art Lebedev.


They now are building the "ripster limited edition" it will cost 2.500$ because it's improved oleds and because the pricey paint needed to make it otaku.

:biggrin:
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Offline spolia optima

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« Reply #99 on: Mon, 30 May 2011, 20:27:08 »
Liberté, Égalité, Topré !
keyboards!