Author Topic: Why do you use a numpad?  (Read 22903 times)

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Offline stupefaction

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Why do you use a numpad?
« on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 00:38:14 »
My first two computers were the original Macintosh and the original PowerBook, neither of which came with a numpad. When I switched to Linux and started to use PC keyboards, I still had no reason to use the numpad, except if I had to move diagonally in certain games. After I learned to touch-type, I really didn't need the numpad to enter digits any more. I imagine it's possible to use the numpad by touch, but I don't see how that would be any faster than using the top row.

My question to numpad users is this: why do you feel a need to use the numpad? Have you considered using the top row instead, and have you tried to do so for an extended period? Do you use the numpad by touch alone, or do you have to look at it while entering numbers? Do you touch-type in general?
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Offline Lpb45

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 01:18:43 »
I use the numpad for work and use it constantly all day long as numbers are a huge part of my job (logistics) so I have to have one at work although lately I have been thinking about getting a seperate numpad and bringing in one of my tenkeyless's.  All 3 of my home boards are tenkeyless's like you said no use at home.

I would say 98% of the people who use numpads use them only for work.
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Offline Magna224

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 01:21:39 »
I use it for garrys mod it is absolutely necessary
If you live in AZ you can try my keyboards. I usually keep plenty of different ALPS and MX and buckling springs.

Offline What is X?

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 01:58:10 »
the numpad is MUCH faster for entering numbers and arithmetic than the top row could ever be. That being said, i use it very rarely.

Offline Floob

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 02:26:25 »
Data entry necessitates the use of the number pad, as well as alt+3 for ♥ symbols in Starcraft 2.

Offline stupefaction

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 02:32:38 »
I understand that people use the numpad to enter numbers. What I don't understand is why they feel that the numpad is a better way to enter numbers than the top row of digits. In particular, it seems to me that fast typists, i.e., touch typists, would benefit from using the top row rather than the numpad.

If you're an inveterate numpad user, let's say you woke up to a world in which numpads were abolished. Would you really suffer that much? It might take you a day or two to adapt, but wouldn't you end up using the top row at least as efficiently as the numpad? Consider that you can use the top row with both hands, the left for digits 1 through 5 and the right for 6 through 0. You can't use the numpad with both hands, can you?
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Offline What is X?

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 03:21:45 »
Quote from: stupefaction;327798
I understand that people use the numpad to enter numbers. What I don't understand is why they feel that the numpad is a better way to enter numbers than the top row of digits. In particular, it seems to me that fast typists, i.e., touch typists, would benefit from using the top row rather than the numpad.

If you're an inveterate numpad user, let's say you woke up to a world in which numpads were abolished. Would you really suffer that much? It might take you a day or two to adapt, but wouldn't you end up using the top row at least as efficiently as the numpad? Consider that you can use the top row with both hands, the left for digits 1 through 5 and the right for 6 through 0. You can't use the numpad with both hands, can you?

the zero is large and right next to the thumb, the numpad is rectangular and better fits the hand, and the arithmetic operators are far more accessible and don't need the shift modifier to actuate.

Offline bpiphany

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 03:27:32 »
Quote from: stupefaction;327798
Consider that you can use the top row with both hands, the left for digits 1 through 5 and the right for 6 through 0. You can't use the numpad with both hands, can you?


Exactly this is the problem. You "HAVE" to use the top row with both hands for it to be effective in any way. The numpad is easily operated with one hand only. Freeing up your other hand for other tasks.

Offline BaconKnight

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 04:30:30 »
Quote from: What is X?;327803
the zero is large and right next to the thumb, the numpad is rectangular and better fits the hand, and the arithmetic operators are far more accessible and don't need the shift modifier to actuate.

What this guy said. The number row is just too far above home row to be comfortable to use, unless you shift your entire hand up, but then the problem is things like +, - which need the shift button which is super uncomfortable to use if you're hands are up on the number keys as home row.

Also you'd be relying on you're weakest finger (the pinkys) to actuate the important keys you'd need in this set up like shift, plus, minus, equals sign. And then there's the issue of multiplication and division. Multiplication would either be x button all the way down there on the bottom row or the * button which is another shift modified button. Division probably would be the / button, another out of the way button especially if you're typing on the number row. It's just a bad, bad, bad, set up.

If you ever took a business class in high school where they taught you tenkey, you'd see just how much faster it is, espeically when dealing with mathematical/computational situations.

Lastly, tenkey is the set up for a lot of counter machines like cash registers. It's a standard already, part of it being that it saves space (can you imagine a long row of numbers at a cash register?). This is also why tenkey was standardized, as another poster said, so the other hand can do something which someone at a cash register needs to do often.

EDIT: Note this is coming from a guy who has a tenkeyless board lol. For home use I don't need it but what I pointing out here is the reasons for why it exists and as a purely numerical input device, it's better in a lot of situations if ALL you're gonna be putting in is numbers.
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Offline paat

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 04:37:09 »
I use the numpad for gaming, because i'm lefthanded and WASD with the right hand doesn't work for me very well.

Offline Pylon

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 06:49:52 »
The top row is really wide. You need 2 hands to use it at any sufficient speed, and you need liberal use of shift in order to access + and *, and you need to reach down to hit /. That means you need a ton of hand motion to use the top row. Numpad on the other hand is easily used with one hand, with all the numbers placed in a nice grid that requires a lot less finger movement.

Offline Eric5676

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 10:08:37 »
I'm right handed so I find the numpad to be a bit more convenient than the numbers at the top. Thankfully I have space for it although the Rosewill isn't a "large" full sized keyboard.

I could live without the numpad if I had to but it's a nice convenience to have for me.

Offline Brummell

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 14:08:33 »
Quote from: stupefaction;327798
I understand that people use the numpad to enter numbers. What I don't understand is why they feel that the numpad is a better way to enter numbers than the top row of digits. In particular, it seems to me that fast typists, i.e., touch typists, would benefit from using the top row rather than the numpad.

If you're an inveterate numpad user, let's say you woke up to a world in which numpads were abolished. Would you really suffer that much? It might take you a day or two to adapt, but wouldn't you end up using the top row at least as efficiently as the numpad? Consider that you can use the top row with both hands, the left for digits 1 through 5 and the right for 6 through 0. You can't use the numpad with both hands, can you?


You don't know any accountants, do you?
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Offline Brummell

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 14:14:43 »
Quote from: ripster;328033
I want to have sex with my CPA.  He made sure I paid less taxes than General Electric!


Hell, there's no skill involved in that.
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Offline Brummell

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 14:20:23 »
I have no basis on which to judge your skill at gay sex except to say that I can't imagine you being as good at it as MW.
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Offline Brummell

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 14:24:33 »
Quote from: ripster;328047
We need to stop picking on the poor guy.  He's become like a meme.


Maybe we should replace him with The Solutor for a while?
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Offline keyboardlover

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 14:24:52 »
He doesn't even POST here anymore!

Offline Brummell

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 14:26:46 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;328051
He doesn't even POST here anymore!


Too worn out after all the gay sex.
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Offline keyboardlover

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 14:30:14 »
Welly doesn't post here anymore either.

MW: obvious troll
Welly: political troll
Hamblet: HILARIOUS troll. Best ever. Wish he still posted.

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 14:43:04 »
Quote from: stupefaction;327776
I imagine it's possible to use the numpad by touch, but I don't see how that would be any faster than using the top row.
...
My question to numpad users is this: why do you feel a need to use the numpad? Have you considered using the top row instead, and have you tried to do so for an extended period? Do you use the numpad by touch alone, or do you have to look at it while entering numbers? Do you touch-type in general?

Quote from: stupefaction;327798
I understand that people use the numpad to enter numbers. What I don't understand is why they feel that the numpad is a better way to enter numbers than the top row of digits. In particular, it seems to me that fast typists, i.e., touch typists, would benefit from using the top row rather than the numpad.


Have you ever tried to enter a very long list of numbers using one hand, while using your other hand to hold a ruler as you go through the list of numbers to enter to make sure you enter the numbers correctly? Try doing this on the number row and see how effective and efficient you can be.

Also sometimes, some applications require that you type a number then press on Enter, then enter another number, then press on Enter, etc. The Enter key is too far from the number row for that kind of application.


Nothing against you, but this is the question that makes laugh all the time. Just because I don't need a numpad does not mean that no one does. Thinking this way is similar to a horse wearing blinkers.

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 14:53:45 »
Quote from: ripster;328033
I want to have sex with my CPA.  He made sure I paid less taxes than General Electric!


Is not GE the smart company who uses taxpayers' money to not pay taxes?

Offline keyboardlover

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 14:59:14 »
Yea...one of the **** companies that we unfortunately bailed out.

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 15:02:24 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;328073
Yea...one of the **** companies that we unfortunately bailed out.


It is sad, but there will always be companies looking to work the system.

Offline Brummell

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 15:04:49 »
Just smart enough to job the system to avoid taxes.
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Offline alaricljs

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 18:19:18 »
Quote from: Brummell;328036
Hell, there's no skill involved in that.


Really?  You do know they got like $1.2 billion in tax 'relief' ?  Meaning the idiot fed's not only didn't take any money from them, but gave that much to GE.
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Offline stupefaction

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 18:56:33 »
The one-handed argument makes sense to me. I can see that an accountant would want to enter numbers with one hand while using the other to pet his dog or stir his coffee, or even to move a ruler down a list of numbers that he's copying.

I'm still not sure that justifies the expense to manufacturers of building a numpad into keyboards by default, and the expense to discerning consumers of buying a numpadless keyboard. The way I see it, keyboards should be tenkeyless by default, and it's the accountants who should pay extra for a numpad. The world is upside down!
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Offline CephalicCarnage

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 18:58:53 »
Who needs a tenkey numpad when we can all learn to type numbers like this guy?


I can touch type numbers on the number row but I still prefer the comfort of the tenkey layout for heavy numeric entry.

Speaking of... I've got a Goldtouch GTC-0077 in the mail!
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Offline RiGS

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 19:00:26 »
Lol, he is Russian.
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Offline keyboardlover

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 19:11:15 »
Russians are always experts at stuff that doesn't matter. Like chess, and handball.

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #29 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 21:04:45 »
Quote from: stupefaction;328196
The one-handed argument makes sense to me. I can see that an accountant would want to enter numbers with one hand while using the other to pet his dog or stir his coffee, or even to move a ruler down a list of numbers that he's copying.

I'm still not sure that justifies the expense to manufacturers of building a numpad into keyboards by default, and the expense to discerning consumers of buying a numpadless keyboard. The way I see it, keyboards should be tenkeyless by default, and it's the accountants who should pay extra for a numpad. The world is upside down!


I think it would be a mistake to think that the cost of having a numpad on a keyboard is significantly more than not having it. I would not be surprised if the manufacturing cost of a keyboard is under $10. In my opinion, the whole point of having a numpad offered by default is due to one thing: consumers demand.

Let's see why it makes sense for keyboard manufacturers to offer numpad by default.

First. People know that keyboards are available with numpads. Most people are good at using calculators. They would not want to invest the time to learn using the number row when a numpad is available.

Second, most people don't care much for what keyboard they are using, if it's mechanical or not. All they care about is being able to type and enter numbers. These people don't see a tenkeyless keyboard as getting a lot for their money. And since keyboards are not like a newly developed drug, keyboard manufacturers don't want to risk losing sales. This makes sense. Why do you think a tenkeyless Filco cost more than a standard size Filco? It's because those who want tenkeyless keyboards are significantly outnumbered by those who want standard size keyboards. The demand for tenkeyless keyboards is lower and therefore, manufacturers have to charge more to compensate. Moreover, most users don't want to spend too much money a keyboard. In fact, most of them want to spend the least amount possible, that's why they don't replace the keyboard which comes with their computer. Buying a seperate numpad means spending more money in their case.

If I were to start my own keyboard brand for sale, I would go for standard size. It will be hard for me to convince the majority of users than a tenkeyless keyboard is better for them, that it brings the mouse closer to them.

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #30 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 21:08:08 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;328208
Russians are always experts at stuff that doesn't matter. Like chess, and handball.


I would not call chess and handball things that don't matter :-)

Does not playing chess force you to think a lot, and therefore helps your brain developing more neurons? What I learned in Psychology is that giving one's brain a workout regularly is a good way to protect oneself agianst alzheimer. Handball is a sport, and therefore is a way of keeping in shape.

Offline keyboardlover

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #31 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 21:21:11 »
Joke. Killed.

Ugh.

Offline stupefaction

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 22:17:10 »
Is there some mathematical explanation for why tenkeyless keyboards, which are produced in small numbers, cost more than the abundant tenkeyful keyboards? I only wish there were some graphical device that one could use to illustrate and generalize this curious phenomenon.
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Offline Brummell

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #33 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 22:39:17 »
Dammit, man.
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Offline godofdeath

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 10 April 2011, 22:42:31 »
excel

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 11 April 2011, 05:28:21 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;328262
Joke. Killed.

Ugh.


Sorry...LOL.

Offline Ekaros

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 11 April 2011, 06:21:27 »
Quote from: stupefaction;328294
Is there some mathematical explanation for why tenkeyless keyboards, which are produced in small numbers, cost more than the abundant tenkeyful keyboards? I only wish there were some graphical device that one could use to illustrate and generalize this curious phenomenon.


Umm....

Take a number of X which is cost of developing, desigining and making master tools and parts for keyboard.
Take a number X which is same, minus savings from tenkeyless.

Now
You sell 1000 normal keyboars. Price Y + X/1000
You sell 100 tenkeyless boards Price 0.9Y + X/100

Savings in material cost, don't realy overcome the volume.

BTW, ISO is superior for number entry on numrow ;D Enter is in better place...
So I should add something useless here yes? Ok, ok...
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woody

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 11 April 2011, 06:29:54 »
Slimmer is more expensive usually. Laptops? Girls?

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #38 on: Mon, 11 April 2011, 06:47:25 »
Quote from: Ekaros;328437
Umm....

BTW, ISO is superior for number entry on numrow ;D Enter is in better place...

The . is also farther from the number row than it is from the numbers on the numpad. Of course, some people can say that the period can be remapped, but most people don't even know that they can remap the keys. Moreover, I have been typing in both English and French for years, and I am so used to having my ~ key where it is that moving it to somewhere else will only cause frustration.

Offline vicariouscheese

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« Reply #39 on: Mon, 11 April 2011, 11:45:34 »
Quote from: woody;328439
Slimmer is more expensive usually. Laptops? Girls?


baaaaahaha nice

Offline Oxblood

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 11 April 2011, 13:31:32 »
I think we should make calculators that mimic the top row keys, they would me more efficient because I could use 2 hands to type on them . . .

O wait that's why I learned to use a slide rule.

Offline kill will

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 11 April 2011, 15:02:34 »
i use one to input poker calculations
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Offline Tallon

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 11 April 2011, 15:17:47 »
I prefer using the tenkey than the top row. I usually have to use the tenkey at work, but I still catch myself using it at home every now and then - enough that I'd prefer to have a tenkey around somewhere. Usually it ends up being used for seeing how our budget is (we're living on a tight budget right now, so I have to pay attention to it...). Oh, I also use it for certain apps - sometimes the enter on the numpad has a slightly different result than the normal enter key (photoshop is one example) and that can be darn useful.

As others have said - it's far easier to use the numpad =-\

-Tallon

Offline geonny

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #43 on: Tue, 12 April 2011, 19:33:56 »
If you watched someone who uses numbers a lot, like an accountant, you will see that they use an adding machine like most people use a keyboard to touch type.  They don't look at their hands, they just rapidly punch in the numbers.  The keyboard number pad is set up the exact same was as  an adding machine, so anyone who is familiar with touch typing on an adding machine can touch type on a keyboard's number pad.

Offline craZivn

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #44 on: Tue, 12 April 2011, 20:14:57 »
I use my numpad for first-person shooters! The keys are very conveniently placed and far less cramped than using a WASD layout. (Not to mention it keeps my keyboard hand far, far away from the dreaded Windows key :D) I'm left-handed, so getting rid of the numpad wouldn't bring my trackball closer to me anyway. Plus the numpad is perfectly located for my right hand, which is the keyboard hand for gaming.

Offline escargot

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #45 on: Tue, 12 April 2011, 20:15:25 »
Hmm... Roguelikes, Adobe Creative Suite, as Tallon mentioned, number input when using a ruler to check data or to pass through pages with my left hand. I also have seen me forced to access to /*-+ through the numpad, since I've happened to swap my layouts many times (not because I wanted to though).
But I guess Roguelikes is an important reason, I just can't enjoy them without aligned keys.

Offline himynameisbunny

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #46 on: Thu, 16 June 2011, 00:20:02 »
I work in accountancy and the numpad is a godsend.

I had been using my NoFaeces for a month or so at work and trying to use the top row/staggered FN numpad was slowing me down immensely.

Now have the new membrane board that I chucked aside for the Noppoo, and it's that much quicker just because it has a numpad.

Lucky I have a Goldtouch coming from the U.S. very soon to compliment the Poker and M570 trackball...
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Offline redpill

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #47 on: Thu, 16 June 2011, 00:22:06 »
I crush columns of numbers with a numpad, speed and accuracy are miles above trying to use the number row.

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Offline Lethal Squirrel

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #48 on: Thu, 16 June 2011, 00:29:26 »
Garry's Mod and GTA IV trainers. That's about it.

Offline Tony

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Why do you use a numpad?
« Reply #49 on: Thu, 16 June 2011, 20:40:25 »
A lot of games use numpad for movements to all directions, with 5-numpad as waiting.

Example: Deadly Rooms of Death (dungeon puzzle game)
Keyboard: Filco MJ1 104 brown, Filco MJ2 87 brown, Compaq MX11800, Noppoo Choc Brown/Blue/Red, IBM Model M 1996, CMStorm Quickfire Rapid Black
Layout: Colemak experience, speed of 67wpm