Filco majestouch2 brown metallic ringing

[redpill]

I just got a Majestouch-2 with Browns, and I can hear what people are talking about.  However, I believe the reason is actually the acoustics of the keycaps magnifying the spring noise when the sound waves bounce back across the metal plate.  To test this, I stuffed some bits of soft paper towel into one of the key caps, just enough to deaden the acoustics but not enough to interfere with the action of the key.  The result?  The ping becomes inaudible.  This also is consistent with some folks saying the ping is louder on larger keys.  That's because the internal acoustics of the larger keycaps make it more audible.

Based on this experience, I don't believe resoldering the switch is going to make a difference.

[redpill]

Well, are there any notable differences in the construction between Gen1 and Gen2?  Could the keycaps weigh less?  Thus the springs pushes them up more easily, resulting in the resonance after they fully pop back up?

[redpill]

Only seems to happen when bottoming out also.  I wonder if those pads from EK or the silicone washers would make a difference.

I'll be able to test different keycaps also when the engraved PBT keys arrive.

[skamtet]

So the Filco Majestouch 2 with blue switches don't have this problem?

[ambroise]

So does that mean Leopold are better?




I'm confused...

[sordna]

The ringing has to do with the switch, not the keyboard. The spring just so happens to oscillate differently from switch to switch. It comes with the territory of mechanical switches, just get over it, turn up the music, or go back to membranes. The keyboards are perfectly fine.

[redpill]

The ringing has to do with the switch, not the keyboard. The spring just so happens to oscillate differently from switch to switch. It comes with the territory of mechanical switches, just get over it, turn up the music, or go back to membranes. The keyboards are perfectly fine.

Uh, well I have two keyboards on my work desk.  One is a KBC Poker with MX Browns that just clicks, and one is a Filco Majestouch 2 with MX Browns that rings like a tuning fork.  So no, it's not the switch.  It's the interaction of the switch with the metal plate, because the acoustics of the keycaps and the metal plate make a distinctive ping that does not exist on a keyboard without the metal plate.  I don't find it annoying, but it's definitely there.  Maybe prior versions of the Filco board don't have it, I have no idea, I'm just telling you what is.

It definitely is resonating across the metal plate, because I can listen to different places on the keyboard while hitting the escape key and it sounds like the sound is coming directly from under my ear.  There is some dynamic occurring wherein the metal plate of the Filco is magnifying the sound of the spring along with the natural acoustics of the keycaps.  Maybe it's Solutor's soldering issue, maybe it's something else, I don't know.  But it's definitely there.

[The Solutor]

Maybe it's Solutor's soldering issue

If the switch is not tightly coupled with the plate, the dampening effect represented by the contact of two or more materials with different resonating frequencies is attenuated or missing.

Likely you never touched an old Italian £ 500 coin



but maybe you have touched one of 1 or 2 euro



 which uses the same bimetallic technology.

Well those coins doesn't "ding" like any other coins, exactly for this reason: the two metals are tightly coupled and have different resonating frequency, slightly different in the euro coins case (two different kind of Cupronickel alloys)  greatly in the Italian one (bronzital and stainless steel).

So Soldering correctly the switches have the same effect on plate mounted boards.

[sordna]

Solutor,
I don't think soldering has anything to do with it. I have some pinging keys, both frame and pcb mount, and even if I remove the keycap, and squeeze the switch body as hard as I can with my fingers to eliminate any vibration, it still pings.  It's the spring that's vibrating, not the switch body.
Did you honestly resolder switches and found it resolves the sound issue, or is it just speculation on your part ?

[The Solutor]

Solutor,
I don't think soldering has anything to do with it. I have some pinging keys, both frame and pcb mount, and even if I remove the keycap, and squeeze the switch body as hard as I can with my fingers to eliminate any vibration, it still pings.  It's the spring that's vibrating, not the switch body.
Did you honestly resolder switches and found it resolves the sound issue, or is it just speculation on your part ?

 
I don't think is the spring that pings, rather the springy part of the contact, the point where the sound originates.

Whatever the origin is the plate helps to transmit that sound and the space between PCB and plate acts as a resonating chamber.

BTW resolder a switch is a so quick task that is quicker to try than to discuss endlessly w/o trying anything else.

In the worst is matter of 5 minutes wasted.

[The Solutor]

You first

I'm sorry but likely i soldered and desoldered more switches in two monts than most of the geeckhack users in a whole life, maybe you included

You're the only one that keeps bringing it up.

I'm used to act while some other  other love to talk.

Actually no other one has tried, so we doesn't have a good statistic about the problem.

I doesn't own high quality (:pound:) filco board, so just a couple of my switches were pinging, and they doesn't ping anymore.

[sordna]

I can get some keys on Kinesis contoured keyboards to ping. Both thumb area (PCB mount) and keywell area (frame mount). It's not the soldering, and there is no plate to resonate either. If it's the contact instead of the spring, I do not know for sure. But it's coming from inside the switch.

Ripster, you probably have loose MX switches lying around, do they ping ? And can you tell if it's the contact or the spring that generates the sound?

[nhwhaup]

Now keep in mind I don't have the Filco with the browns but two Filcos with reds. My full sized one really pings quite a bit. Now I never really noticed it before this thread and it doesn't bother enough to take away the enjoyment of typing on the reds. My tenkeyless Filco with reds has absolutely no pinging. I can speak from experience that the sound dampening pads and new PBT keys will not stop the ping. My full sized with the pinging has the firm sound dampening pads and white PBT keycaps from Imsto. I do also have it on a rubber matt and still pings away. Like I said before I still really like that keyboard and will continue to use it as my main board at work.

Now interestingly my tenkeyless version is ping free. I did put the soft sound dampening pads on it but I believe it has always been ping free. So what do you suppose is the difference between the two?  Maybe the extra length gives less rigidity and more movement?  Not that I notice any flex, but it's odd to me that these are so different. Both were purchased through Keyboard Company the full sized via Amazon and the tenkeyless direct.

[morethanless]

While I owned CeeSA's switch try  boards http://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=780 I noticed that the mx brown switches made a metallic noise from the springs.
The reds, blacks didn't do it. These try boards where PCB mounted.

So maybe the pinging really comes from the spring.

[Surly73]

Hey I gotta try that ringing trick!

Show Image

If any Canadians have one of those Loonies you can seperate into two pieces I have keys (or USA nickels) if you want to trade. Mine is the wrong year.

That's a TWOnie

[daerid]

Spoke too soon! Came in to work today and found out that my MJ2 Brown TKL rings on the left control key. Not too bad though since it's one of the lesser used keys, and it only rings when I snap it (not hold it down as a modifier).

[daerid]

Yeah, I do, but unfortunately we're both at work. I don't have a good quality mic either

[keyboardlover]

Although if you want to do that too, and record it, I for one wouldn't mind.

[daerid]

All she has to do is stand in the other room in listen.  It's not like you're screwing in the cubicle or anything.

I would do both. But alas, we don't work at the same place.

[The Solutor]

I managed to find a pinging switch and I recorded it

[sordna]

Can you upload it here? Die daten ist nicht downloadbar.
We need 2 samples, one original, and one after you resolder it.

[morethanless]

Yeah it says 'the file you are accessing is currently not available, please try again later'

[keyboardlover]

I love how we have a lot of threads about the same topic.

Between that and discussion about Moogle's signatures, it makes the whole group 3 buy waiting game MUCH easier.

[keyboardlover]

I'm still waiting for someone to post a pic of Moogle's first sig. I can't for the life of me remember what it was!

[keyboardlover]

You posted his second one. He had one before that which 7bit claims was much manlier.

[The Solutor]

@sordna

#1 I'm currently at the hospital because an emergency about the healt of my mother, so I haven't time to do anithing more for now

#2 I uploaded the file because someone asked, not to demonstrate anything.

#3 I if you wan't to try if my point is right or wrong just try to resolder your pinging switches, is matter of 5 minutes and has no side effect.
As I said before we are on geeckhack not on lazypussies :-)

#4 being an audio file is likely that it will checked before being available, the forum engine doesen't accept wav files.

[keyboardlover]

Sorry to hear about your Mom. I hope she will be OK.

[The Solutor]

thank you guys.

were fearing moments but looks like she is going well.

[keyboardlover]

Certainly takes precedence over this nitpicking issue.

 
I find the fact that you used The Solutor's incident to try to add relevancy to your point horrifying.

[sordna]

Actually, it's way more horrifying to see Solutor posting on Geekhack from the hospital.
Anyway, dear Solutor, I wish the best for your mother, and I do hope you will NOT read these posts until after everything is well and back to normal.

However, you mentioned the soldering issue as a matter of fact, as a proven solution, giving the impression that you or someone you know of tried it successfully. We appreciate these ideas, but please indicate whether something you offer is a possible solution to try, or a known/proven solution. Some of the people here have never desoldered a switch, and would be rather pissed to destroy a PCB run or smear solder over adjacent contacts, and void their warranty, only to find out that the solution doesn't even work.

[The Solutor]

Actually, it's way more horrifying to see Solutor posting on Geekhack from the hospital.

 
Should I wait w/o doing anything just to not horrifying you ? what's the difference between reading a newspaper and posting on a forum ?

I'm aware that Internet in mobility is a relatively new thing for Americans but I use it since 1998 and for me is  a normal activity.

However, you mentioned the soldering issue as a matter of fact, as a proven solution

Exactly

giving the impression that you or someone you know of tried it successfully.

Exactly

But keep in mind that proven solution !=  definitive answer to the argument

Some of the people here have never desoldered a switch

Who said that you have to desolder the switch ? You have just to melt the four soldering point while firmly pushing the switch to eliminate any loseness...

[redpill]

The switches don't feel loose on mine, and they all seem to cause the same resonance in the metal plate.  I thought about trying to stuff the case with foam, but I don't know if it'll help.

[sordna]

There's no looseness. I believe that IS the problem, there is too good sound transfer due to lack of looseness (like guitar strings transferring the sound to the soundbox through the bridge). In fact I think that if you remove all solder from a switch, and the pins are loose in the PCB holes, there would be no ping. Just a switch that doesn't register :-)

[The Solutor]

Btw i converted the file in mp3 and now is directly attached  (message #87)

[The Solutor]

Lol.

Does The Solutor own a Filco?

 
The solutor owns a bunch of brown switches...

[The Solutor]

I thought we were saying this was a Filco only problem?

 
Looks like the problem affects more filco boards than other. My xarmor had just two switches pinging (and Xarmor doesn't present itself as a first on class)

I presume that Filco is more affected because the wire bridge instead of the led on one side of the switch, it's way easier to push the led than the jumper during the soldering process.

[The Solutor]

I'd buy into your theory ONLY if Filcos had wire jumpers.

 
Even worse, with just two contact (like a cheap BW) that keep the switch in place my "theory" is even more supported.

Next theory?

We don't need a next theory.

[The Solutor]

I can predict what people are going to say.

Just use the brain (like other people do) and you have right answers

[The Solutor]

I know where you get your theories from.

I think there were no need to write ripster on the left, everything figured that the one in black represents you :smokin:

[redpill]

I tried padding under the PCB and it didn't make a noticeable difference.  I think it would need to be in contact with the metal plate or the keycaps themselves to do a good job of dampening the ring.  Ideally there would be a foam sandwich in between the plate and the PCB.

[alaricljs]

Hmmm, anyone crazy enough to spray that expanding insulation foam into their Filco?  

[redpill]

Haha ya know that just might do it but I don't know if it's worth the risk.  You'd feel like a real ******* if it didn't work afterwards.

[redpill]

The PCB isn't what is resonating, the metal plate is.  I like the foam injecting idea, but I just think I'd wind up with a quiet keyboard that didn't work when I plugged it in.

[redpill]

Something like this?  Dunno what's in the stuff, would it get in the switches or ruin the PCB??

http://www.amazon.com/Fill-Seal-Triple-Expanding-Foam/dp/B0002YX9GG

[redpill]

I'm tempted.  I'll try some other things first and consider that the nuc-u-lar option

[redpill]

For what purpose?

[keyboardlover]

You really aren't having a good day are you KL?

 
I was gonna say the same thing about you? You got beaten up in like 3 threads lol.

[keyboardlover]

But...only like one person believes you.

Lol.

[redpill]

But...only like one person believes you.

Lol.

 
Are you suggesting ripster is biased in favor of Filcos? :peep:

[canon.tk]

I'll take the ring a ping a ding of a Filco over almost any other board out there.