Why are filco keyboards so expensive?

[spitfire6000]

Does anyone know exactly why they charge so much for filcos compared to so many other brands that are all made at the same factory?

Is it because the filco units are given more care or are put together by the senior master keyboard assembler?

The das prof S silent has a poor cosmetic design due to foolish choice of materials (black piano acryllic sucks), but the most important thing: the sound and feel of the keys and caps are pretty much perfect. I tried to find errors or irregularities in 2 different das model s silents, and couldn't pin point a single difference. They were robotically identical on every single key, from key to key on the keyboard itself, to key to key compared to the other keyboard. Very impressive.

Now...the filcos do not have a usb hub like the das, nor do they have any features like media control or audio ports like the thermalake.

Also...the filco does NOT have lazer etched printing on their key caps, meaning faster wear. (the das does)

I saw lots of complaints recently about even the brand new ninja brown boards having pinging and ringing sounds that shouldnt be happening considering these boards are advertised as having more stabilization than all the others...

"[Not only appearance but also basic functions have improved!]

FR-4Double layers is adopted for a new board. Through a hole of each switch has been firmly soldered.
With this, it can release any excess load or vibration that you make when you type in to a board not only to a metal plate inside.
It enables you to enjoy a better typing feel!
We also brought the rate of its data transfer for PC to the highest which provides you faster response.
This function as well as N-key rollover meet for the professional gamers."

http://cgi.ebay.com/Filco-FKBN104M-EFB2-Majestouch-NINJA-Brown-Switch-/250842096683?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item3a675aa42b

http://www.auspcmarket.com.au/info/KE-FKBN104M-EFB2/
This link says its designed in Japan...awesome didnt know that =)

So im just curious, whats the premium being charged for?

Also, now that mech keyboards are catching on and becoming more popular, will Filco be able to continue setting such a high pricepoint?

[Haes]

like ripster said due to lacks of distributors around the world. but it's a general issue.
for example topre is also pretty expansive and there's a hugh difference between distributors.
the finnish topre distributor which sells iso fin version of realforce demands
about 170€ + 15€ shipment. kc demands about 240€ (incl. shipment) for the same realforce though they offer
more iso versions.

[redpill]

It's also more expensive because Geekhackers keep RMAing their keyboards for this silly ping issue.

Hey, no shilling before 9am.  It sure doesn't seem silly when you're the one that just paid premium dollars for a Filco and it rings like a bell.

[whocares1195]

Also, now that mech keyboards are catching on and becoming more popular, will Filco be able to continue setting such a high pricepoint?

I'm hoping Logitech and Microsoft bring out a line of mechanical keyboards in the future and that SteelSeries and Razer update their line with different switches.  The main reason being to drive down the prices on mechanical keyboards.  It's kind of ridiculous the kind of money we pay for these keyboards.  These keyboards are awesome and they're the best to type on but it's just a keyboard.  Then again they have mice that run in the $100+ range which is retarded also.  Oh well.

[Wallach]

I'm hoping Logitech and Microsoft bring out a line of mechanical keyboards in the future and that SteelSeries and Razer update their line with different switches.  The main reason being to drive down the prices on mechanical keyboards.  It's kind of ridiculous the kind of money we pay for these keyboards.  These keyboards are awesome and they're the best to type on but it's just a keyboard.  Then again they have mice that run in the $100+ range which is retarded also.  Oh well.

Yeah, I kind of feel the same way. Rosewill getting into the scene should help with that if they can start cranking up their production.

[whocares1195]

As much as the DAS guys cry and ***** about their shiny case I've seen more issues/complaints "OMFG, my dog can barely make out a ping" regarding Filcos which seem to be regarded as the gold standard of boards.

Still, I can't get the "I want a Filco" devil off my shoulder

Yeah, that "Filco" devil likes to talk a lot.  He likes to whisper to you to look at pictures, watch videos, and read keyboard forums to check on any threads involving a Filco.  Horrible I tell you.  Horrible.

[sinis]

For me it was Filco or Das, because this are the only MX Browns boards with NKRO easily available here. So distribution is a reason.
DAS has this shiny Case. My Shiny Zowie EC1 looks and feels terribad, when you dont wipe the stuff off a few times a day. So no DAS for me.
Then Filco is available in tenkeyless.
And size matters!

[drsauced]

I generally do what my rice krispies tell me.  Unfortunately, they say, "filco, filcofilco, ffffilco."

[Megaweapon]

I have emailed DAS about getting a key pad less keyboard and was told something like, "Thanks for your input, son.  However if we take your advice on products and produce something like it - you can sue us for stealing your idea.  No go fo sho"

By that logic they couldn't do it even before you emailed them because someone else had already made a tenkeyless board and so they MIGHT GET SOOOED!

[redpill]

I call this rule of Internet Forums periodically going bat**** over non-existent manufacturing flaws

 
Bull****.  It's not some random internet phenomenon, the keyboard would ring loudly.  Stop shilling for two seconds.

[redpill]

It's extremely difficult to build a new set of stairs that don't squeak?  lol.  Someone's doing it wrong.

[redpill]

Let's just say I know a lot about new homes.  And it isn't hard to make stairs that don't creak.  There are products specifically designed for it.

[redpill]

The Scandinavians are big on pre-fab housing also.  Certainly a far cry from grannie's double-wide.

[Tony]

Why are Mercedes, Rolls-Royce and Lamborghini cars so expensive? Same for Filco keyboards.

[penpoints]

It's also more expensive because Geekhackers keep RMAing their keyboards for this silly ping issue.

No one has returned their keyboards for a "silly ping issue."

Some Filco's are defective, with at least some keys that don't deaden the sound correctly. This causes a loud sustained ringing (the "tuning fork effect") that can be very annoying.

Clearly you haven't encountered one of these ringing Filco's yourself, or you wouldn't be so close-minded on this issue.

[redpill]

Why are Mercedes, Rolls-Royce and Lamborghini cars so expensive? Same for Filco keyboards.

lol more like Toyota versus Kia.

[spitfire6000]

1) step 1: Hire 5-10 people to troll the internet spamming amazing reviews of filco
2) step 2: limit production and put price point WAY above all competitors
3) step 3:
4) step 4: PROFIT

GENIUS!

[spitfire6000]

Why are Mercedes, Rolls-Royce and Lamborghini cars so expensive? Same for Filco keyboards.

Filco shares most of its parts with the other keyboards that are cheaper than it....and theyre made it the same factory.

Many people forget that the main part of the keyboards....the switches...are all the same for all boards. Those are the most expensive parts of the keyboard by a huge margin, the rest that goes around it is fluff.

The Hyundai sonata isnt made 20 feet away from a rolls-royce phantom, and a kia elantra isnt made under the same roof as a lamborghini gallardo. ^_^ poor analogy

[redpill]

Say what you will but I'd rather have the new Optima than a Camry.

 
I hear you, but that wasn't the point

[woody]

Filco shares most of its parts with the other keyboards that are cheaper than it....and theyre made it the same factory.

So? Does that mean that the contractor requested/paid the same materials, operations, QA, etc?

Just to make you think. Lots of weak assumptions/examples recently.

In other words - unless someone is working at Costar (or wherever) and has the information mentioned above (which is probably restricted), do realize it's only your wild speculation.

[PlayerZero]

For me it was Filco or Das, because this are the only MX Browns boards with NKRO easily available here. So distribution is a reason.
DAS has this shiny Case. My Shiny Zowie EC1 looks and feels terribad, when you dont wipe the stuff off a few times a day. So no DAS for me.
Then Filco is available in tenkeyless.
And size matters!

Here in America, bigger is better.  Hence macro keys...

[Adhesive_X]

Are they really THAT expensive? Majestouch-2 for 150 bucks.....
Considering the fact that I regularly see the 7G, BW Ultimate, and Xarmor for that same price. They all have the own quality issues as well.
You can save 5-10 on a Leopold, but I couldn't find feedback from actual owners....

[theferenc]

You know, I hate to agree with ripster, but I listened to a lot of the sound samples of pinging filcos, and I noticed 2 things:

1) I rarely heard a ping at all
2) When I did, it was when the key was being pressed and released very very very slowly. No one types that slowly.

It's a spring, for crying out loud...when allowed to, they will vibrate. This is sometimes called pinging.

Now, as to why they are expensive...because that's the price people are willing to pay for them. If they could charge more and maintain similar sales, you better believe they would be even more expensive.

[redpill]

You know, I hate to agree with ripster, but I listened to a lot of the sound samples of pinging filcos, and I noticed 2 things:

1) I rarely heard a ping at all
2) When I did, it was when the key was being pressed and released very very very slowly. No one types that slowly.

It's a spring, for crying out loud...when allowed to, they will vibrate. This is sometimes called pinging.

Now, as to why they are expensive...because that's the price people are willing to pay for them. If they could charge more and maintain similar sales, you better believe they would be even more expensive.

1) It's not the spring, it's the metal plate.  It's plate ring, not spring ping.

2) It would get worse the faster you type because greater vibrations make louder resonance in the plate.

[theferenc]

2) It would get worse the faster you type because greater vibrations make louder resonance in the plate.

I do not think that word means what you think it means. Resonance happens at specific frequencies. Springs don't maintain the same frequency of vibration at different decompression rates.

[Tony]

Same factory does not mean same quality and same typing feel.

There are not so many keyboards can be sold each day, so they tend to be manufactured by the same factory to save cost of transportation of switches and the keyboard controllers.

[HaveANiceDay]

I like the body. Filco has the prettiest body of all the keyboards I've seen. It's the equivalent to big tits for me.
I'm a sucker for good design.

[Mazora]

1) step 1: Hire 5-10 people to troll the internet spamming amazing reviews of filco
2) step 2: limit production and put price point WAY above all competitors
3) step 3:
4) step 4: PROFIT

GENIUS!

3) step 3 (consistant) : Play minecraft

[redpill]

I do not think that word means what you think it means. Resonance happens at specific frequencies. Springs don't maintain the same frequency of vibration at different decompression rates.

It's not the springs, it's the plate.  How many times does that need to be said?

[redpill]

The plate would ring when knocking on the desk next to a keyboard.  Hell I would be typing on my KBC Poker and I could hear the plate ringing on the Filco six inches away just from the vibrations through the desk!  Individual pinging springs have nothing to do with that and are a separate issue.

[daerid]

Jesus christ... we already have a thread about the ringing. Take it over there

[keyboardlover]

Hey, we already have a thread about religion. Please take your comments about Jesus Christ there.

[theferenc]

I guess you really don't know what resonance means. It's caused by vibrations. Typing causes vibrations. Springs rebound vibrate. Resonance can't happen without vibrations to resonate with.

My comment about the springs was simply that typing at different rates causes them to vibrate at different rates, and if the plate rings all the time, it can't be resonance. Now, as requested, that's my last comment on the matter.

[The Solutor]

Unless it's a Xarmor.  

 
Yes, you can't use it as a gong, as a dog-chaser, as a mosquito repeller and so on :happy:

[Larry Dallas]

Say what you will but I'd rather have the new Optima than a Camry.

 
Id rather have the new 6000 SUX.[video=youtube;fl8mQhxhE_Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl8mQhxhE_Q[/video]

[joysick]

this thread is like asking, why is gold so expensive, there are many metals like it.

[sordna]

My stairs don't squeak.

They must be made by Filco.....

Does that mean they ping instead ?

Actually in Japan I visited a friend that works at P&G Kobe.  His manufactured house is made by Toyota.

 
Hope they come with manual transmission, most Toyota's in the USA don't :-)

[The Solutor]

Ahh, I see.  You were basing your opinion on aesthetics, rather than performance and reliability.

 
I will not buy an Hummer even if it will last until the end of the time..

Have fun rma'ing your xarmors

Don't compare nice looking keyboards with cars horrorifized specifically to please the american's [lack of]taste

[theferenc]

We lack taste, yet for some reason, Ford, GM, Honda, and probably others have a unified world wide lineup. A focus is a focus is a focus. An accord is an accord is an accord. Anywhere you go, in any country, if the car is sold there, it's the same as the one sold everywhere else.

And don't even for a second claim the Focus doesn't sell well outside the US. Or the Accord.

Also, typical continental bull**** from you, yet again. We often get mocked for taking a US-centric view of the world. Well, it's often because we got tired of being looked down on all the time, so now we just ignore you.

[The Solutor]

We lack taste

Nobody is perfect, you have a lot of pros and a lot of cons as every inhabitant of the planet (ripster excluded, obviously).

Good taste is not in the pro list, I'm afraid.

Ford, GM, Honda, and probably others have a unified world wide lineup.
 

They have some to have larger numbers, are usually gray cars, not horrible, not nice. A sorta of brown switch.

And don't even for a second claim the Focus doesn't sell well outside the US.

Focus is extremely cheap, sell relatively well in Italy also, just because is the cheapest car of it's segment.

Also, typical continental bull**** from you, yet again.

I was born in a Island, you can't find a less continental person...

so now we just ignore you.

we ?

who are you ?

Obama ?

The american ambassador ?

[Larry Dallas]

I will not buy an Hummer even if it will last until the end of the time..



Don't compare nice looking keyboards with cars horrorifized specifically to please the american's [lack of]taste

 
Horrorifized? Yeah, I'd rather have this sleek piece of Italian artwork than a Camaro.

[gilgam]

Horrorifized? Yeah, I'd rather have this sleek piece of Italian artwork than a Camaro.

Show Image

 
They changed the design since, unfortunately that was one of my favorite car design.



Talking back about keyboards are leopold the same quality than filcos ? The price is lower but the filcos are so pricey (not talking about realforce, but their quality is awesome) that there must be some marketing trick, no ?

[daerid]

Good taste is not in the pro list, I'm afraid.

Wow. Arrogant and condescending. Ignored.

[sordna]

It's not the springs, it's the plate.  How many times does that need to be said?

redpill, no. If I tap my Kinesis board on the side, it pings, and it has no plate. Any kind of vibration excites the springs, even if you don't touch the keys.
I agree with Ripster, the sound source is the springs, the plate (as well as the keyboard case) just helps amplify it.
If anyone has a keyboard with switches or springs removed, and plate/pcb in place, I bet it's not going to ring no matter how hard you tap it.

Hey with those spring swap discussions going around, it would be a good opportunity to test this hypothesis, while springs are removed.

[redpill]

the sound source is the springs, the plate (as well as the keyboard case) just helps amplify it.

Wrong, and wrong.  Even tapping lightly on the plate, I can tell it is the plate that is ringing, not the springs.  And the case doesn't have anything to do with it, it would ring just as loudly with the case off.

If you have a Cherry MX switch part in a block of wood with no spring it also does not vibrate.

I'm sure it's the spring that makes the sound.   It's like a guitar.  Some tonewoods make different sounds with the same metal strings.  I don't like maple necks.  Ebony fretboards FTW!

IBM Model Ms make a ping sound.

So do Kinesis Keypads with Cherry Blues.

So does my Cherry Corp PCB mounted Ricercar SPOS if I do an arpeggio and listen very carefully.

So do Topres if I do an arpeggio if I put my ear to the BACK of the keyboard.

Not remotely comparable.  You are comparing springs sounds to a the entire plate ringing.  It's entirely different.  Different springs make different pings and pongs.  My Filco would ring the same B flat no matter what.  And claiming it's the same phenomenon as you putting your ear up to the back of a nearly silent Topre is absurd and intellectually dishonest.  It's not even in the same ballpark of conversation.  My Topre makes no noise (and my KBC Poker with browns doesn't ring either for that matter) while the Filco would ring so loudly you could hear the B flat outside of my office.  I know, because someone came in and asked "Doesn't that tone bother you after awhile?"  

Oh but let me guess, it's some McGurk/Guitar/Made-up/Topres do it too/Filcoshill excuse of the day.

[sordna]

Wrong, and wrong.  Even tapping lightly on the plate, I can tell it is the plate that is ringing, not the springs.  And the case doesn't have anything to do with it, it would ring just as loudly with the case off.

I cannot be 100% sure, but there's no way to isolate the plate from the springs, unless you remove the springs. In my view, the plate/switches/springs are so tightly coupled together, there's no way to prevent vibration from going from one component to the other, even if you just slightly tap the plate directly. Something less invasive than removing springs to test this hypothesis, is to put some weights (perhaps books) on ALL keys, so all the switches are bottomed out. Then tap the side of the keyboard. I believe it will not ring.
It's an easy test to do on a flat keyboard.

[redpill]

I cannot be 100% sure, but there's no way to isolate the plate from the springs, unless you remove the springs. In my view, the plate/switches/springs are so tightly coupled together, there's no way to prevent vibration from going from one component to the other, even if you just slightly tap the plate directly.

Well apparently there is, because most plate-mounted mechanicals don't have this problem.  Are you trying to say it's the springs so you can blame it on Cherry instead of Filco?
 

Try putting the back of your Topre up to your ears like this and type.

Why would anyone do such a thing?  It's irrelevant, no one types that way.  The Filco was ringing during normal typing, and it became very annoying.  I don't care if it rings inaudibly, only if it rings loud enough to be heard down the hall.

Sometimes I hear the Topre "Fart" too. Google it if you don't believe me. #1 hit.

Good for you, make a Topre Fart thread then, that has absolutely nothing to do with the metal plate on a Filco being loud enough to be heard down the hallway by the customer service department.  Not even remotely relevant.

[redpill]

I'm not being hostile, just explaining why I think you're wrong and that it's nothing to do with guitars and Abe Lincoln.

[sordna]

Well apparently there is, because most plate-mounted mechanicals don't have this problem.  Are you trying to say it's the springs so you can blame it on Cherry instead of Filco?

No, I'm interested in finding the root cause, whatever it might be. I thought you would be happy with my testing idea:

If you have a keyboard that pings when you tap it on the side and believe it's the plate, stack some books on it to bottom out all the switches, and try tapping the keyboard again. If you get the same ping, it's the plate. If you don't hear a ping, or if there is a ping with a completely different pitch due to the compression, it's the springs.

[Adhesive_X]

I heard Abe Lincolns beard used to ping. It was even worse when he wore his top hat.

I blame the top hat top.

Real downer at the gettysburg address.....