Author Topic: Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show  (Read 16414 times)

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Offline RiGS

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« on: Wed, 29 June 2011, 06:56:56 »
Alex talks with Texas congressman Ron Paul about the TSA and the unconstitutional war on Libya.

[video=youtube;C-Z7mhcWACo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-Z7mhcWACo[/video]

[video=youtube;-dvIv0CvDM0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dvIv0CvDM0[/video]
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Offline keyboardlover

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 29 June 2011, 07:04:39 »
I like Ron Paul but Alex Jones is a complete nutcase.

Offline RiGS

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 29 June 2011, 07:13:02 »
One day you might wake up from trance, then you will realize that he is the man.
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Offline xargos

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 29 June 2011, 07:50:21 »
Personally, I think both of these guys are completely off their rockers.  What else can I think when we're talking about someone who basically doesn't care about funding what people need going on a show run by someone who repeatedly claims people are censoring him when he says whatever he pleases?

At least Alex Jones keeps the tinfoil hats listening to the shortwave radio.  Without him the market for those radios might just go kaput!

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #4 on: Wed, 29 June 2011, 08:00:35 »
Quote from: RiGS;369892
One day you might wake up from trance, then you will realize that he is the man.

Maybe the next time I have an acid flashback.

Offline redpill

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« Reply #5 on: Wed, 29 June 2011, 09:53:50 »
I'll prob vote for Ron Paul next year, no one else in DC makes any sense.

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Offline Lpb45

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 29 June 2011, 12:01:27 »
I dont get why american politics are such a big deal to you Rigs you're not even american.  Does stuff like this affect the country you live in?  I mean this as a serious question.  Are they discussing foreign policy in this or something?  I am at work so cant watch it right now.
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Offline RiGS

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 30 June 2011, 08:38:12 »
[video]http://cnn.com/video/?/video/politics/2011/06/29/jk.ron.paul.war.powers.cnn[/video]
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Offline misteralias

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 30 June 2011, 22:27:51 »
i used to follow him closely myself.

[video=youtube;TACalwg360c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TACalwg360c&feature=related[/video]

you might be interested in jacque fresco's venus project(formally sociocyberneering), his interview on larry king would be a good place to start: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCH0BQ2nSMo

Offline RiGS

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 01 July 2011, 06:07:11 »
Quote from: Lpb45;370014
I dont get why american politics are such a big deal to you Rigs you're not even american.  Does stuff like this affect the country you live in?  I mean this as a serious question.  Are they discussing foreign policy in this or something?  I am at work so cant watch it right now.

 
It's quiet simple. Ron Paul stands against the private "federal" maffia banksters who take over the US and the rest of the World.
As you may know they control the Dollar, and the Dollar is the current reserve currency.

He also an advocate & the defender of the Constitution. Those principles and values what made America great and the land of the opportunity.
If he gets elected it will effect the whole World.
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Offline Daniel Beaver

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 01 July 2011, 07:55:36 »
Quote
Does stuff like this affect the country you live in?
Yes. For better or for worse, the man in the oval office has a lot of influence over the entire world.

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Offline RiGS

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 02 July 2011, 15:37:13 »
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Offline RiGS

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 13:35:09 »
[video=youtube;9RtMm6d60og]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9RtMm6d60og[/video]
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Offline Lpb45

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 15:44:27 »
Quote from: RiGS;371128
It's quiet simple. Ron Paul stands against the private "federal" maffia banksters who take over the US and the rest of the World.
As you may know they control the Dollar, and the Dollar is the current reserve currency.

He also an advocate & the defender of the Constitution. Those principles and values what made America great and the land of the opportunity.
If he gets elected it will effect the whole World.

He's not going to get elected.  period. end of story.  I might give what you had to say more weight if you werent such a troll 99% of the time.
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Offline keyboardlover

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 15:45:47 »
We currently have a black president.

Nothing is impossible.

Offline Lpb45

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 16:40:28 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;373271
We currently have a black president.

Nothing is impossible.

Care to wager on it?
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Offline RiGS

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« Reply #16 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 16:49:04 »
Quote from: Lpb45;373269
He's not going to get elected.  period. end of story.  I might give what you had to say more weight if you werent such a troll 99% of the time.

 
Why do you ask when you seriously don't give a ****?
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Offline keyboardlover

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 16:58:12 »
I liked Lpb45 a lot better when he had just joined GeekHack and didn't troll people.

Offline Lpb45

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 19:54:40 »
That is the exact response I expected of you nowadays KL, you do nothing for anybody here at geekhack and not saying I do eithor but I dont go around acting like all the little people here at Geekhack owe you something because you made a couple polls and have done NO actual tests of anything.  Just look at your Sig, all I see is I me and I'm.  

I come to Geekhack because its a community of mostly good people and you add absolutley nothing to it.  Rigs although somewhat trollish atleast will help people, just look at the Dell thread where he posted drivers to help someone out.  You do nothing that doesnt serve your ego.

Incoming "U MAD" pic, I do it for the Lulz or whatever other 4 year old meme your using today.
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Offline Lpb45

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 19:55:32 »
Quote from: RiGS;373305
Why do you ask when you seriously don't give a ****?

I voted in the last election how bout you bro
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Offline keyboardlover

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 19:58:52 »
@Lpb45 - dunno what you're talking about; I post helpful stuff whenever I see I can add something that makes sense. I do it as much as I can. All I see from you is trolling.

Offline Lpb45

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 20:06:31 »
ya obviously im trolling when I type a response to you like I just did.  OBVIOUSLY thats trolling.  Seriously I dont have a problem with you I just dont understand how youve been acting lately.  We(Geekhack) are  THE keyboard forum for this half of the world despite whatever the elitists at Deskthority would like to say(all 3 of them),  all of us need to put aside the crap and just get back to keyboards, science and more keyboards.
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #22 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 20:10:04 »
ಠ_ಠ


I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Shiiiiiit. You know I ain't changed. I'm still the same ol' G.

Offline ClosedBSD

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 06 July 2011, 16:40:52 »
Ron Paul is such a funny candidate; he always says something completely reasonable to draw me in, like actually pointing out that the military budget is overblown...and for awhile, I think Ron Paul is OK.

But of course, Ron Paul can't help himself and spouts off about how businesses shouldn't have to serve black people if they don't want or starts yammering on about going back to the gold standard or supports ending all welfare and I remember that he's ****ing nuts.

Offline TexasFlood

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 06 July 2011, 16:41:53 »
Quote from: ClosedBSD;374814
Ron Paul is such a funny candidate; he always says something completely reasonable to draw me in, like actually pointing out that the military budget is overblown...and for awhile, I think Ron Paul is OK.

But of course, Ron Paul can't help himself and spouts off about how businesses shouldn't have to serve black people if they don't want or starts yammering on about going back to the gold standard or supports ending all welfare and I remember that he's ****ing nuts.
Yup, that's his M.O., can't seem to help himself.

Offline ClosedBSD

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 06 July 2011, 16:53:52 »
Quote from: TexasFlood;374816
Yup, that's his M.O., can't seem to help himself.


For ****s and giggles, some friends and I played a drinking game during the second republican primary debates, and one of the rules was "drink every time Ron Paul turns a question not about monetary policy into something about THE FED"

Didn't buy enough booze for that one.

Offline redpill

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 06 July 2011, 18:13:50 »
Considering the Fed has had a substantial hand in the current economic depression, I'd say that's an appropriate tactic.  Or should he have spent more time answering the retarded "coke or pepsi" questions before commercial breaks?

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Offline ClosedBSD

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 06 July 2011, 18:32:48 »
Quote from: redpill;374894
Considering the Fed has had a substantial hand in the current economic depression, I'd say that's an appropriate tactic.  Or should he have spent more time answering the retarded "coke or pepsi" questions before commercial breaks?


While the Fed is certainly not innocent, a larger part of what happened in the depression was due to shady banking practices by companies like Goldman Sachs, AIG, and other.

Paul thinks it is due simply to inflation because he thinks they are "just printing money", when in reality inflation is a very useful monetary tool to encourage investment and allow an economy to grow. His advocacy of a deflationary gold-backed currency would make the depression much worse, and would centralize the money into even fewer hands than it is now.


The thing about Paul is that he is frequently correct about what problems we face, but for the wrong reasons.

Offline redpill

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 06 July 2011, 23:07:25 »
Quote from: ClosedBSD;374914
While the Fed is certainly not innocent, a larger part of what happened in the depression was due to shady banking practices by companies like Goldman Sachs, AIG, and other.

Time to take the red pill, friend.  You are saying it's not Curly's fault, it's really Larry and Moe.  Central banks are the genesis of what we face today.  It happened only a decade after the Federal Reserve was established in 1913 and they fueled the roaring 20s only to result in a crushing depression and it's been a predictable boom and bust cycle at their hands ever since.  Ironically, avoiding such cycles is precisely the justification given for having a central bank in the first place.  But that horrible 100 year experiment is seeing its bitter decline today.  We've reached what they call the Keynesian endpoint.

Quote from: ClosedBSD;374914
Paul thinks it is due simply to inflation because he thinks they are "just printing money", when in reality inflation is a very useful monetary tool to encourage investment and allow an economy to grow. His advocacy of a deflationary gold-backed currency would make the depression much worse, and would centralize the money into even fewer hands than it is now.

Willful inflation through debasement of currency is not useful, nor is it a monetary "tool."  It is an artificial scourge that is an inevitable result of the abuse of fiat currency and has shown to be true through many failed governments, civilizations and empires throughout human history.  Claiming that having sound money would concentrate wealth into the hands of the few defies history.  The more central bank interference we've had, the more the gap between the wealthy and poor has grown.  In fact it has accelerated especially over the last year.  Why is that?  Because central banks reward the financiers, because they are one in the same.

Quote from: ClosedBSD;374914
The thing about Paul is that he is frequently correct about what problems we face, but for the wrong reasons.

Please, wake up from the Keynesian nap.  The music has stopped playing.  The patient is in cardiac arrest, and there's only so much monetary "life support" can do.

What you need to understand is that it is not left versus right, or rich versus poor.  It is the vast majority of the citizenry against a financial oligarchy that is joined at the hip with the central banks of the world and the politicians that partner with them.

If you are going to sit here and believe that "inflation" is a "monetary tool" then we have really nothing further to discuss.  But if there's one request, I'd ask you'd attempt to read some material that is not fueled by the same system that gives you cable news and 401k plans with 6 loaded mutual fund options.  Some good places to start:

http://www.zerohedge.com
http://www.chrismartenson.com
http://www.sovereignman.com

Best,
rp
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 July 2011, 23:12:01 by redpill »

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Offline ClosedBSD

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 00:27:08 »
Quote from: redpill;375102
Time to take the red pill, friend.  You are saying it's not Curly's fault, it's really Larry and Moe.  Central banks are the genesis of what we face today.  It happened only a decade after the Federal Reserve was established in 1913 and they fueled the roaring 20s only to result in a crushing depression and it's been a predictable boom and bust cycle at their hands ever since.  Ironically, avoiding such cycles is precisely the justification given for having a central bank in the first place.  But that horrible 100 year experiment is seeing its bitter decline today.  We've reached what they call the Keynesian endpoint.



Willful inflation through debasement of currency is not useful, nor is it a monetary "tool."  It is an artificial scourge that is an inevitable result of the abuse of fiat currency and has shown to be true through many failed governments, civilizations and empires throughout human history.  Claiming that having sound money would concentrate wealth into the hands of the few defies history.  The more central bank interference we've had, the more the gap between the wealthy and poor has grown.  In fact it has accelerated especially over the last year.  Why is that?  Because central banks reward the financiers, because they are one in the same.



Please, wake up from the Keynesian nap.  The music has stopped playing.  The patient is in cardiac arrest, and there's only so much monetary "life support" can do.

What you need to understand is that it is not left versus right, or rich versus poor.  It is the vast majority of the citizenry against a financial oligarchy that is joined at the hip with the central banks of the world and the politicians that partner with them.

If you are going to sit here and believe that "inflation" is a "monetary tool" then we have really nothing further to discuss.  But if there's one request, I'd ask you'd attempt to read some material that is not fueled by the same system that gives you cable news and 401k plans with 6 loaded mutual fund options.  Some good places to start:

http://www.zerohedge.com
http://www.chrismartenson.com
http://www.sovereignman.com

Best,
rp

Linking me to a bunch of gold bug blogs isn't going to convince me of anything.


Are the inherent flaws in deflation really lost on you?

To make this simple, let's pretend there are 10 people in the world, or our "economy". In this world, we have 1000 ounces of gold,
and no more - we've checked. Since we plan on using this gold as a metric to facilitate trade in our world but are not willing to
carry around and chop up gold to describe transactions, we invent dollars and cent and say each ounce of gold is worth $1, and we
write into law that 1 ounce of gold will equal 1 dollar forever.

Now in order to make money, decide to use the money I inherited from my father ($100, he was wealthy) to start a business making
FoodPacks to sell to the other 9 people on the planet. I hire you, a middle class man with only $5 to your name to make FoodPacks
for me to see for 10 cents a day.

Over the years, our business does well. Between labor and supply cost, each FoodPack costs me 20 cents to produce, and I sell them
for 50 cents each, netting me big profits. Wealth gets moved around between people trading, I now have $200, you have worked your
way up to an impressive $20, and the rest of the $1000 in the economy is divided roughly evenly between the other 8 members of our
society.

Over these years though, the world has grown a bit. The 10 people in our world have socialized, gotten married, and have given
birth to 10 more people, all of whom are ready to work and participate in the economy.
So, now there is 20 of us, but the gold/dollars are in the hands of the original 10. Since we have to create roughly twice as many
FoodPacks now due to greater demand by the other participants in our "economy", I have to hire on a second person to help produce
enough of them. When it comes time to set wages for the new employee and yourself after your yearly review, I am stuck in a
conundrum.

You see, before now our economy was pretty stable. We had exactly 10 participants who were trading goods back and forth at a
fairly constant rate, so have exactly $1000 in circulation was not a problem - in fact, it worked out perfectly. Now though, our
economy has grown, we are producing more, have more workers, and more importantly, have a much greater (double, in fact) demand
for gold for trading. Since this doubling in demand has essentially caused my net work to double over night, I realize something:
I can pay you half of what I did before (due to the greater demand for dollars, what I am paying you, while lower in numbers, is
the same in value). Due to my materials costing less as well, I am now paying 10 cents for labor plus materials, and can charge 25
cents each while keeping my same profit ratio. Since there is also twice the demand for my product, I am actually earning the same
number of dollars every week.

My personal expenditures used to be $1/week, but now due to deflation I am only spending 50 cents/week (technically, the same
'value' as before). I am now able to just stashed the other 50 cents of every dollar I spent in savings.

Time continues, and there is a constant greater and greater demand for dollars due to growing populations and newer product being
released. I continually keep spending a smaller and smaller fraction of my wealth on expenditures and saving more and more as the
deflation continues, which makes my portion of the dollars in the economy swell up to $900 of the $1000 in gold, while the rest of
the population (now around 50 people) spend and trade.

Long story short, I keep saving my money as the value of the dollar deflates until one day I start spending. As I have a
disproportionate amount of the money compared to the rest of the populace due completely to the fact that I let the rest of you
increase it's value by expanding the economy by making more products and babies while I just stored my money away, I am able to
buy up all the property in our little world and keep it all to myself.

I really can't think of a good ending to this story besides you and the rest of the population rising up, killing me, seizing my
assets, and creating a new, inflating fiat currency that accurately represents the economic growth of the world and encourages the
new investing class to invest in new projects today lest their dollars graudally devalue over time, so we'll say that's what
happened.



The only people who benefit from your gold-based, deflationary money ARE the financial oligarchs, as every day their large sum of money is worth more and more, and they can keep spending less of it for the same labor that they did before. It accelerates the accumulation of wealth into the hands of the rich.

It also very much discourages investment - why take a risk on an investment today, when thanks to deflation their is zero risk of my money will be worth more tomorrow?
Once again, I'm not defending the Fed as much as I'm defending properly controlled inflation. Also, it's not just the oligarchs vs everyone, but it is very much rich vs poor in this country, ad the recent trend of union-busting going on has shown.



And no, I don't get my news from the 24-hour channels, I usually hang out in places like this (http://forums.somethingawful.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=46) where you can expect a ban if you make a claim without backing it up with hard math, historical evidence, or at least a peer-reviewed article; not some blog by an alarmist who is trying to get me to buy precious metals because they are 'valuable'.
« Last Edit: Thu, 07 July 2011, 00:29:34 by ClosedBSD »

Offline ClosedBSD

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 00:32:12 »
Probably shouldn't have bothered to write that, since you likely won't read it, let alone admit that deflationary gold-backed currencies are flawed from the start. My fault for not having the sense to never posting in a thread with Alex Jones and Ron Pauls' names in the title.

Offline redpill

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #31 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 09:50:18 »
Quote from: ClosedBSD;375176
Probably shouldn't have bothered to write that, since you likely won't read it


Not when you start with absurd statements like this:

Quote from: ClosedBSD;375172
Linking me to a bunch of gold bug blogs isn't going to convince me of anything.


I wouldn't characterize any one of those three as gold bugs, so the fact you make such ignorant blanket statements just shows that you're not interested in hearing the truth, but rather only seeking out information that confirms your world view, aka confirmation bias.

Regardless, the editors of those three sites certainly advise hedging with precious metals, which is a position that has done extremely well in the face of the monetary inflation that has been occurring.  I'm not sure how you can argue with the wisdom of that.

Quote from: ClosedBSD;375176
let alone admit that deflationary gold-backed currencies are flawed from the start.


Having sound money is not inherently deflationary.  And you have things rather backwards, I'm afraid.  Throughout human history, it has not been sound money that has caused the downfall of great civilizations, but rather currency debasement and/or inherently inflationary fiat.  But hey, I'm sure the central bankers appreciate you defending their ailing regime.  Best of luck in blue pill land.

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Offline ClosedBSD

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 12:37:23 »
Quote from: redpill;375379
Not when you start with absurd statements like this:



I wouldn't characterize any one of those three as gold bugs, so the fact you make such ignorant blanket statements just shows that you're not interested in hearing the truth, but rather only seeking out information that confirms your world view, aka confirmation bias.

Regardless, the editors of those three sites certainly advise hedging with precious metals, which is a position that has done extremely well in the face of the monetary inflation that has been occurring.  I'm not sure how you can argue with the wisdom of that.



Having sound money is not inherently deflationary.  And you have things rather backwards, I'm afraid.  Throughout human history, it has not been sound money that has caused the downfall of great civilizations, but rather currency debasement and/or inherently inflationary fiat.  But hey, I'm sure the central bankers appreciate you defending their ailing regime.  Best of luck in blue pill land.

No, I'm well aware that the bankers are the problem. The issue isn't, and hasn't every been "sound" money vs. fiat, it has been the bankers and the rich continuously leveraging their advantage in the world vs. the poorer classes by refusing to raise wages while profits soar, cutting benefits, busting up unions, and outsourcing across the board in order to make short-term profits at any cost. I was never defending the bankers, in fact I believe greed in general is the source of most, if not all, of the world's problems; and their disconnect from reality and selfishness is obscene.

Arguments against precious metals are as such: no major world economy plans on switching back to it, it IS deflationary (as resources to back currency are limited on this planet), and Gold isn't actually valuable in and of itself, it really holds no more value than that which backs the dollar - the faith of the people who use it as currency every day.

Also, your red/blue pill shtick is cute. Yeah, most of us have gone through our "college libertarian" phase where we know "the truth". Spend some less time at reddit, go out in the real world and talk to some people. People different than you - white people, black people, asian people, rich people, poor people.. Realize that everyone dealing in the economy is human, and lots of the economic behavior you are seeing can be explained by human behavior and not some vast conspiracy to inflate your money out of your hands.

Also, I would love some actual examples of where sound currency caused a civilization's downfall instead of other rampant corruptions, live privatization mixed with cronyism (which is the actual problem with these Wall Street and corporate deals, and was the same thing that brought down Rome.)

Offline redpill

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #33 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 12:57:10 »
Quote from: ClosedBSD;375470
No, I'm well aware that the bankers are the problem. The issue isn't, and hasn't every been "sound" money vs. fiat, it has been the bankers and the rich continuously leveraging their advantage in the world vs. the poorer classes by refusing to raise wages while profits soar, cutting benefits, busting up unions, and outsourcing across the board in order to make short-term profits at any cost.


And what do think makes that incredible leverage a possibility?  

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws."
- Mayer Amschel Rothschild

You are missing the forest for the trees.

Quote from: ClosedBSD;375470
Arguments against precious metals are as such: no major world economy plans on switching back to it, it IS deflationary (as resources to back currency are limited on this planet), and Gold isn't actually valuable in and of itself, it really holds no more value than that which backs the dollar - the faith of the people who use it as currency every day.


You have a fundamental misunderstanding of sound money.  Firstly, you are incorrect that major world economies are not looking to gold these days, central banks have been buying it furiously in anticipation of continued tumult in fiat currency markets.  Secondly, while there is a finite amount of gold on the planet, much of it is still in the ground, and there is plenty to back a currency with.  That gold "isn't actually valuable in and of itself" is precisely why it works well as real money.  But it does have unique properties.  It's portable, relatively liquid, fungible, and easily recognizable.

Quote from: ClosedBSD;375470
Also, your red/blue pill shtick is cute. Yeah, most of us have gone through our "college libertarian" phase where we know "the truth". Spend some less time at reddit, go out in the real world and talk to some people. People different than you - white people, black people, asian people, rich people, poor people.. Realize that everyone dealing in the economy is human, and lots of the economic behavior you are seeing can be explained by human behavior and not some vast conspiracy to inflate your money out of your hands.


Wow, what a ****ing condescending paragraph that is.  Here's one more tip for you: don't make assumptions about people you don't know.  I'd be willing to bet I'm older than you, wealthier than you, and have been to more obscure parts of this planet than you even know the names of.  Stop swinging your e-peen and open your brain to possibilities outside of what you've been indoctrinated with.


Quote from: ClosedBSD;375470
Also, I would love some actual examples of where sound currency caused a civilization's downfall instead of other rampant corruptions, live privatization mixed with cronyism (which is the actual problem with these Wall Street and corporate deals, and was the same thing that brought down Rome.)


They all tend to go hand in hand, debasement of currency is as much corruption as any other crime of absolute power.

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Offline ClosedBSD

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #34 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 13:18:19 »
Quote from: redpill;375477
And what do think makes that incredible leverage a possibility?  

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws."
- Mayer Amschel Rothschild

You are missing the forest for the trees.

Inflation and the ability to inflate is much less of a control then the general hoarding of it, which is what is happening, especially on Wall Street.

Quote from: redpill;375477
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of sound money.  Firstly, you are incorrect that major world economies are not looking to gold these days, central banks have been buying it furiously in anticipation of continued tumult in fiat currency markets.  Secondly, while there is a finite amount of gold on the planet, much of it is still in the ground, and there is plenty to back a currency with.  That gold "isn't actually valuable in and of itself" is precisely why it works well as real money.  But it does have unique properties.  It's portable, relatively liquid, fungible, and easily recognizable.
Still having some 'in the ground' does not change the fact that there is a finite amount of it, making it unsuitable for an economy that will grow in size past the total amount of gold. In order for gold backing to properly work, we must set an exact dollar to gold ratio that we must maintain forever - so what happens when all of it is in circulation and we start producing twice as much due to growing populations and more products? Deflationary spiral starts, that's what.

Quote from: redpill;375477
Wow, what a ****ing condescending paragraph that is.  Here's one more tip for you: don't make assumptions about people you don't know.  I'd be willing to bet I'm older than you, wealthier than you, and have been to more obscure parts of this planet than you even know the names of.  Stop swinging your e-peen and open your brain to possibilities outside of what you've been indoctrinated with.

I'm sorry, it was a bit condescending, but I generally see your logic come from one of two crowds: shut-in college Libertarians, OR older Libertarians who, maybe by luck, maybe by hard work, maybe by being born into the right family, have accumulated a small fortune for themselves. They see themselves as hard-workers, and attribute every dollar they own to hard work (note, this is what the bankers tell themselves as well. They upset me somewhat, because most of them have a view that the poor in the world are just poor because they are lazy, when in fact they don't realize that sometimes poorer people are born into much more terrible circumstances. I generally think that people who have a 2-dimensional view of the world do not get out enough to see the viewpoints of others, and forget that human nature plays the biggest role in the economies and structures in our world.
Since these college libertarian types (or anarcho-capitalists or whatever they call themselves now) are also aware enough to see that something is wrong with the world, but blame things like inflation over greed (much like they have sometimes) as the cause, because while inflation definitely plays a part in the corruption, it is not nearly as big a problem as the rich requesting bailouts, devising securities that will intentionally fail to scam people out of money, and refuse to pay their share of taxes (see: companies using taxation methods like the Double Irish loopholes to avoid paying US taxes in full.) all in an attempt to hoard capital and refuse to pay back to the society that made them rich.

You need to be less condescending as well, calling me indoctrinated at every turn. For full disclosure, I DID grow up with strongly Republican parents, but soon slid away to the democratic party after realizing the religious reasons were an awful thing to base the party on. That didn't last long either, as after going to college and meeting all sorts of different people and participating on web forums and made a fast slide towards Marxism until I realized that pure communism faced the same problem as free market advocacy does - it assumes all people are rational, act in their best interests, or are all willing to protect each other, so I am fairly solidly what you would call a "far left Socialist"

Offline redpill

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #35 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 13:45:23 »
Quote from: ClosedBSD;375488
Inflation and the ability to inflate is much less of a control then the general hoarding of it, which is what is happening, especially on Wall Street.

I couldn't disagree more.  But if you are looking at the world through the clouded eyeglasses of Keynes or Marx while I see it from the perspective of Mises and Hayek, we won't soon come to agreement.

Quote from: ClosedBSD;375488
Still having some 'in the ground' does not change the fact that there is a finite amount of it, making it unsuitable for an economy that will grow in size past the total amount of gold.

This is what I mean when I say you have a fundamental misunderstanding of sound money.  For one, I could counter by saying there is a finite number of trees in the world and therefore we can't use paper as money because someday the economy will grow bigger than the number of trees we can grow.  It's nonsensical.  The value of gold will scale according to the amount of production/material/labor equivalent it is exchanged for.  The economy can never "grow in size past the total amount of gold" because the body of all gold, or other method of sound money backing, will always equal the entirety of economic activity and individual apportionment of that metal or other sound money backing therefore buys more or less depending on the size of the economy.  

Sound money obeys the same laws of supply and demand as other commodities, just in a different way.  But these fluctuations are nothing compared to the roller coaster of fiat currency.  Over thousands of years an ounce of gold has had remarkably stable purchasing power.

Quote from: ClosedBSD;375488
In order for gold backing to properly work, we must set an exact dollar to gold ratio that we must maintain forever

Completely wrong.

Quote from: ClosedBSD;375488
I'm sorry, it was a bit condescending, but I generally see your logic come from one of two crowds: shut-in college Libertarians, OR older Libertarians who, maybe by luck, maybe by hard work, maybe by being born into the right family, have accumulated a small fortune for themselves.

Horrible generalizations.  You should meet more libertarians.  Thinking they are all introvert collegiates or independently wealthy trust beneficiaries couldn't be farther from reality.  The vast majority I've come across don't fit into either category; rather they want to be able to live their lives without folks such as yourself asking the government to seize their property by force.  You may see that has hyperbole, but it's funny how perceptions change between the person holding the gun and the person who has it pointed at them.

Quote from: ClosedBSD;375488
You need to be less condescending as well, calling me indoctrinated at every turn. For full disclosure, I DID grow up with strongly Republican parents, but soon slid away to the democratic party after realizing the religious reasons were an awful thing to base the party on. That didn't last long either, as after going to college and meeting all sorts of different people and participating on web forums and made a fast slide towards Marxism until I realized that pure communism faced the same problem as free market advocacy does - it assumes all people are rational, act in their best interests, or are all willing to protect each other, so I am fairly solidly what you would call a "far left Socialist"

Not shocking we vehemently disagree then.  I can scarcely imagine being such a statist that must inherently believe in vigorous use of government aggression and central planning.  After what we've witnessed over the past several years that there are still people left that believe MORE government is the solution is simply mind-boggling to me.  But good luck.

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Offline ClosedBSD

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #36 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 14:09:58 »
Quote from: redpill;375498
I couldn't disagree more.  But if you are looking at the world through the clouded eyeglasses of Keynes or Marx while I see it from the perspective of Mises and Hayek, we won't soon come to agreement.


You're right, the only thing we will probably agree on is the hoarding of wealth at the

Quote from: redpill;375498

This is what I mean when I say you have a fundamental misunderstanding of sound money.  For one, I could counter by saying there is a finite number of trees in the world and therefore we can't use paper as money because someday the economy will grow bigger than the number of trees we can grow.  It's nonsensical.  The value of gold will scale according to the amount of production/material/labor equivalent it is exchanged for.  The economy can never "grow in size past the total amount of gold" because the body of all gold, or other method of sound money backing, will always equal the entirety of economic activity and individual apportionment of that metal or other sound money backing therefore buys more or less depending on the size of the economy.  


You're right again, I must have some misunderstanding, as I don't see how floating the value of the money:gold ratio doesn't directly cause either deflation (as earlier participants in the economy can pull out their gold, was for the value to be worth more dollars, and then cash in) or cause inflation (if you prevent people from doing that, in which case you've just re-invented fiat, only claiming that your money could theoretically be exchanged for splinters of gold.

Quote from: redpill;375498

Sound money obeys the same laws of supply and demand as other commodities, just in a different way.  But these fluctuations are nothing compared to the roller coaster of fiat currency.  Over thousands of years an ounce of gold has had remarkably stable purchasing power.


The stable purchasing power is likely directly related to the stable demand for it, demand would not be stable if it was required for currency, it would skyrocket.


Quote from: redpill;375498

Horrible generalizations.  You should meet more libertarians.  Thinking they are all introvert collegiates or independently wealthy trust beneficiaries couldn't be farther from reality.  The vast majority I've come across don't fit into either category; rather they want to be able to live their lives without folks such as yourself asking the government to seize their property by force.  You may see that has hyperbole, but it's funny how perceptions change between the person holding the gun and the person who has it pointed at them.


I guess I'm sorry that I haven't met more either, yet most of the Libertarians I know fall somewhat into either one of those two categories, generally haven't spent much time learning about the plights of people outside of the race and social class.

Also, I never understood the grand worship for property rights. Yes, a person is entitled to their property, but it seems in Libertarian circles that they regard their property over everything, even the lives of those around them. I never fully believed this, and saw it as such: one day, I will die. Everything I acquire over the course of my life will be worthless to me. Also, it is completely unfair that I, having won the vagina lottery and being born into a white, middle class American family, am much more worthy of a proper education, food, shelter, and employment that a child that was born to a single black mother in downtown Chicago. Once I learned that much of my property was mine less due to merit (I may have 5 times the money as someone, does that mean I work 5 times as hard? Hell no. I would never be able to work as hard as the average immigrant working in the fields), I learned that the almighty 'property rights' I believed in so hard helped no one but myself.

Yes, people are entitled to personally possessions and home, but it is our duty as human beings to take care of each other and provide everyone with the same basic care, services, and opportunities as the other. In fact, a socialized populace as this leads to a much more 'free' market than the one Libertarians are after, as everyone can participate more on merit than on social class at birth.



Quote from: redpill;375498

Not shocking we vehemently disagree then.  I can scarcely imagine being such a statist that must inherently believe in vigorous use of government aggression and central planning.  After what we've witnessed over the past several years that there are still people left that believe MORE government is the solution is simply mind-boggling to me.  But good luck.

 
And here is where I believe you are most wrong. It is almost fully the de-regulation that has come since the Reagan years that has allowed the banking industry to set up their arcane system that allows them the manipulation and freedom that is causing the problems you and I are seeing. Had we, as a people, stated from the beginning that we should restrict things like the Federal Reserve, Wall Street, and other to work within very confined rules; they would not have been allowed to pull some of the securities schemes they did, and had we outlawed corporate donations to government we could have cut down on the cronyism by large amounts.

Offline redpill

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« Reply #37 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 14:42:02 »
Quote from: ClosedBSD;375511
The stable purchasing power is likely directly related to the stable demand for it, demand would not be stable if it was required for currency, it would skyrocket.

In many times in history it HAS been used as currency, and has been stable despite that.

Quote from: ClosedBSD;375511
Also, I never understood the grand worship for property rights. Yes, a person is entitled to their property, but it seems in Libertarian circles that they regard their property over everything, even the lives of those around them.

Incorrect.  It may seem that way because property rights are of vital importance in the relationship of the individual and the state.  If you do not truly own your own labor and the fruits of it, the shadow of slavery is present.  From the Libertarian perspective, the best thing they can do for the lives of those around them is to advocate for the restraint of government.  Conversely, can the same be said for the statists who urge the government to take by force the rightful property of their fellow citizen?  Do they truly care about their fellow man, or are they arrogantly assuming the state can allocate wealth more justly than those who rightfully earned it?  The ends do not justify the means.  Do not tell me you care for others if you ask the government to rob them for the sake of your social agenda.

Quote from: ClosedBSD;375511
Yes, people are entitled to personally possessions and home, but it is our duty as human beings to take care of each other and provide everyone with the same basic care, services, and opportunities as the other. In fact, a socialized populace as this leads to a much more 'free' market than the one Libertarians are after, as everyone can participate more on merit than on social class at birth.

Really?  Was the "socialized" populace free in the Soviet Union?  Are the Greek people more "free" because of their cradle-to-grave social safety net?  Because right now I can tell you they don't feel very free at all.  You are presenting the false dichotomy that the only way we can care for each other is to have government steal and redistribute wealth.  It's a horribly close-minded and dangerous viewpoint that begs for dictatorship.

Quote from: ClosedBSD;375511
And here is where I believe you are most wrong. It is almost fully the de-regulation that has come since the Reagan years that has allowed the banking industry to set up their arcane system that allows them the manipulation and freedom that is causing the problems you and I are seeing.

Sorry but that just comes off as leftist rhetoric.  If we had true deregulation the banks would lose their balls.  Without the government constantly running interference for them with Fed policies, the FDIC, bailouts, you name it, banking would be a largely trust-based and localized phenomena that would be far more rational and anti-corporatist than it is today.  This is the problem I have with your perspective, the actions you advocate lead to centralization of economic and political power, and with that centralization comes horrible corruption.  What you seek to eliminate you make 1000x worse by distilling it into an oligarchical nightmare.

Quote from: ClosedBSD;375511
Had we, as a people, stated from the beginning that we should restrict things like the Federal Reserve, Wall Street, and other to work within very confined rules; they would not have been allowed to pull some of the securities schemes they did, and had we outlawed corporate donations to government we could have cut down on the cronyism by large amounts.

Large banks, the Federal Reserve, and the US Treasury are largely are one in the same.  Often it's the same people rotate amongst the three.  They are the financial elites.  There are incredibly confining rules already, the problem is that they confine the competition of the rest of us due to the concentration of power into a financial oligarchy.  The more government gets involved, the more power and liberty you are ceding to these very same people.  And so you get more angry, you want to double down, let's do MORE, let's regulate more, let's make more laws.  And the problem will get worse.  And worse.  The question is, will you ever stop and realize that it is your "solution" that continues to fuel the problem?  Will you realize you are enabling the expansion of corruption by centralizing power, instead of actually doing something to eliminate it?
« Last Edit: Thu, 07 July 2011, 14:44:22 by redpill »

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Offline ClosedBSD

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« Reply #38 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 15:14:17 »
Quote from: redpill;375537
In many times in history it HAS been used as currency, and has been stable despite that.
Yes, but gold was constantly introduced into the system then by mining, as I have constantly said, their is a finite amount.


Quote from: redpill;375537
Incorrect.  It may seem that way because property rights are of vital importance in the relationship of the individual and the state.  If you do not truly own your own labor and the fruits of it, the shadow of slavery is present.  From the Libertarian perspective, the best thing they can do for the lives of those around them is to advocate for the restraint of government.  Conversely, can the same be said for the statists who urge the government to take by force the rightful property of their fellow citizen?  Do they truly care about their fellow man, or are they arrogantly assuming the state can allocate wealth more justly than those who rightfully earned it?  The ends do not justify the means.  Do not tell me you care for others if you ask the government to rob them for the sake of your social agenda.


Also, what is earned wealth? Are you telling me that the billionaire capitalist, who makes $100 million a year, is slaving away to earn every one of those dollars? No he isn't, he is skimming profits off his workers. Is it that much to ask that he provides a fair portion of those earnings back to the workers and customers that made him so rich, ensuring that they are cared for? You have a horrifically self-centered worldview. You say that people don't truly own the fruits of their labor in Socialism, but they do so much less under capitalism, where those that own the means of production own a large share of their labor.



Quote from: redpill;375537
Really?  Was the "socialized" populace free in the Soviet Union?  Are the Greek people more "free" because of their cradle-to-grave social safety net?  Because right now I can tell you they don't feel very free at all.  You are presenting the false dichotomy that the only way we can care for each other is to have government steal and redistribute wealth.  It's a horribly close-minded and dangerous viewpoint that begs for dictatorship.

The Soviet Union was hardly actually socialized, and had more privatization of services and contractor and whatnot than the US today does.

Quote from: redpill;375537
Sorry but that just comes off as leftist rhetoric.  If we had true deregulation the banks would lose their balls.  Without the government constantly running interference for them with Fed policies, the FDIC, bailouts, you name it, banking would be a largely trust-based and localized phenomena that would be far more rational and anti-corporatist than it is today.  This is the problem I have with your perspective, the actions you advocate lead to centralization of economic and political power, and with that centralization comes horrible corruption.  What you seek to eliminate you make 1000x worse by distilling it into an oligarchical nightmare.

Power naturally centralizes, humanity, and the universe in general, prefers strong order. Without strong regulations, large and early players would be able to form more powerful monopolies and force out competitors.

Quote from: redpill;375537
Large banks, the Federal Reserve, and the US Treasury are largely are one in the same.  Often it's the same people rotate amongst the three.  They are the financial elites.  There are incredibly confining rules already, the problem is that they confine the competition of the rest of us due to the concentration of power into a financial oligarchy.  The more government gets involved, the more power and liberty you are ceding to these very same people.  And so you get more angry, you want to double down, let's do MORE, let's regulate more, let's make more laws.  And the problem will get worse.  And worse.  The question is, will you ever stop and realize that it is your "solution" that continues to fuel the problem?  Will you realize you are enabling the expansion of corruption by centralizing power, instead of actually doing something to eliminate it?

Creating a state, but putting strict oversight and rules on the leaders by the people spreads the power out further. Libertarian ideal societies with weak states only create a new vacuum for large powers to arise and consolidate, only without the burdens of regulations or having to deal with voting peoples. Naturally, your blanket response to this is "if people don't want that to happen, competitors will enter the field". This is wrong for two reasons, since not all people are rational or make the best decisions for themselves, sometimes out of lack of knowledge, sometimes not, but human emotion is often involved. Secondly, large unbridled powers, like the robber barons, will do what they always do when new competition enters the market: take temporary losses and price them out, turn public opinion against them, and so on. Your solution does not solve the problem, at best it changes the hands the power is in, at worst it exacerbates it.


I see your view as horribly self-centered, borderline sociopathic in its hatred of statism, as if something like a democracy where everyone gets a say violates your personal freedoms. You view government as some monolithic entity that arose from the depths of the earth to impose rules on people, when the reason government exist is far more benign - they are a social agreements between people who believe proper structure in the world to chaos. It's borderline hyperbolic and overused at this point, but your Libertopia exists in this world, and it's called Somalia. Has a horribly weak state and no regulation led to thriving private enterprises there, or has it led to people turning to warlords and religion, re-centralizing power into far worse hands than any state?

Offline ClosedBSD

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« Reply #39 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 15:17:14 »
Likewise, I can't understand why you think society is so 2-dimensional, as if currency control is the only thing affecting human interaction, like society can be mapped out on some flow chart and deregulation and a weak state is some straight path to a better world.

Offline redpill

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« Reply #40 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 15:20:35 »
Quote from: ClosedBSD;375573
Likewise, I can't understand why you think society is so 2-dimensional, as if currency control is the only thing affecting human interaction.

Where did I say any such thing?  I don't have time right now to respond to the (tired and) typical allegations of being self-centered (as if it's self-centered to object to government aggression against everyone), but will try to get time to respond this evening.

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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #41 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 15:30:26 »
Quote from: Lpb45;370014
I dont get why american politics are such a big deal to you Rigs you're not even american.  Does stuff like this affect the country you live in?  I mean this as a serious question.  Are they discussing foreign policy in this or something?  I am at work so cant watch it right now.

 
In case you haven't noticed, your country is the most powerful in the world, and worryingly large amounts of US affairs affect the rest of the world, not always in a good way. So I think it's more than fair that people outside of the US have opinions, many strong, on how your country is run.

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #42 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 15:32:56 »
Yea...a lot of foreigners be jelly. That's why we have deskothority.

Offline ClosedBSD

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 15:36:55 »
Quote from: redpill;375574
Where did I say any such thing?  I don't have time right now to respond to the (tired and) typical allegations of being self-centered (as if it's self-centered to object to government aggression against everyone), but will try to get time to respond this evening.
It seemed implied. I'll give you this - libertarianism would work perfectly in a world where everyone was born an emotionless robot, all looking exactly the same and being born in the same conditions.

It seems that you wholly neglect that things like slavery are still well and alive in the world, by claiming that people 'rightfully earn' every dollar they have.

Capital works only because of profit - someone has to be getting more out of a deal than they are putting into it. In buying products, this makes sense - I would rather cede the cost that comes on top of the parts and labor involved in making a product I buy rather than spending the time acquiring them and assembling them.

Libertarians apply this to jobs as well. They say that if you aren't being treated fairly at a job, if you aren't getting paid what you need or the benefits you deserve, you have the option of switching jobs or furthering your education to get a new job.


The idea of a deregulated Free Market is in its purest form, economic Darwinism. It says that the lazy workers do not deserve food or housing or any pity from the system. This is all well and good, until you realize that the real world does not work this way. Some people can't work due to injuries, or mental illness, or lack of education. Some people are not picked for jobs simply because of their race, or their religion, or their particular political leanings. Some people cannot simply pick up and leave their job for a new one, as their low wages are barely enough to feed their starving children. Should all these people be left behind as the better educated people, the wealtheir people, and the people born into a certain race or class soak up the resources they feel entitled to and leave them to wallow in their unfortunate conditions to die?


Is it more of a crime to ask those with more resources, most of which they earned by skimming off the labor of their workers, or off the capital of their customers, to give a portion of their money towards the care of those who made them rich; or is it more of a crime to allow the wealthy business owner to continue profiting until there is a clear divide between the haves, and have nots, of the world?

Offline ClosedBSD

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Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #44 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 15:43:23 »
Also, shamelessly stolen from SA but still funny, a typical day in redpill's life:

This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy.

I then took a shower in the clean water provided by a municipal water utility.

After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like, using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

At the appropriate time, as regulated by the U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the U.S. Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank.

On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the U.S. Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and Fire Marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables, thanks to the local police department.

And then I log on to the internet -- which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration -- and post on geekhack.org forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.

Offline redpill

  • Posts: 503
Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #45 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 15:56:00 »
Quote from: ClosedBSD;375597
Also, shamelessly stolen from SA but still funny, a typical day in redpill's life:

More false dichotomies that because the government is involved in all those things that they couldn't be done without government.  What you describe is the problem, and it does not mean those who object are hypocrites.  The entire point is that I don't have a choice when it comes to most of those things, they are forced upon me by people like you.

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Offline ClosedBSD

  • Posts: 20
Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #46 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 16:03:29 »
Quote from: redpill;375605
More false dichotomies that because the government is involved in all those things that they couldn't be done without government.  What you describe is the problem, and it does not mean those who object are hypocrites.  The entire point is that I don't have a choice when it comes to most of those things, they are forced upon me by people like you.

This is pure speculation on your part, which is not nearly as good as the fact that all those things have been accomplish by the government.

Also, failing to acknowledge that socialist policies have put you in the position you are in today, fairly well off, likely without major problems in your life (you can counter-claim to this, but you are posting on a forum for people who buy moderately highly-priced keyboards, so it's basically firstworldproblems.txt) and claim that a business, who's only real motive is more profit, could have done it the same or better, is a bit hypocritical.

Offline redpill

  • Posts: 503
Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #47 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 16:18:42 »
Quote from: ClosedBSD;375611
This is pure speculation on your part, which is not nearly as good as the fact that all those things have been accomplish by the government.

Pure speculation?  Please.  There are private examples of every single item you listed.

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Offline speakeasy

  • Posts: 181
Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #48 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 16:26:35 »
Quote from: ClosedBSD;375611
This is pure speculation on your part, which is not nearly as good as the fact that all those things have been accomplish by the government.

That's not speculation, a lot of things that the government has a monopoly on today (even things like fire departments) were once in the private sector and ran just fine. In fact, some things that were once heavily under government control became much better once the private sector moved in, like the internet.

If you want to say a business' only real motive is power, then you must be willing to admit that a poltician's only motive is to get more power. The difference between a money hungry business and a power hungry government is that I can choose to stop funding the business by not buying its products or services. I can't choose to stop funding a power hungry government because first of all, my taxes are taken out of salary before I even receive my paycheck. And even if they weren't, if I were to stop paying my taxes, armed men would show up at my door and imprison me/shoot me.

I am on the side of neither big business or big government, because often the two go hand in hand, but at least the business can't use threats of violence to force me to do things I don't want to do.
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Offline ClosedBSD

  • Posts: 20
Ron Paul on Alex Jones Show
« Reply #49 on: Thu, 07 July 2011, 16:27:43 »
Quote from: redpill;375622
Pure speculation?  Please.  There are private examples of every single item you listed.

Feel free to post some original ideas that the free market has provided that would be a soutable replacement for any of them.