Author Topic: Amazon drops California associates  (Read 5423 times)

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Offline Input Nirvana

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Amazon drops California associates
« on: Wed, 29 June 2011, 22:55:28 »
http://money.cnn.com/2011/06/29/technology/california_amazon_associates/

I love California, I'm a fan of Jerry Brown, but I think forcing Amazon to pay sales tax for these services is not the best choice. The sales tax should only apply if it's an in-state purchase. So Amazon pulled out, just as I would have done. Gutsy move considering the population of the Golden State.
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Offline Lanx

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 29 June 2011, 23:06:28 »
this doesn't affect california "per say" this only affects associates who do affiliate marketing for amazon and live in california (along with the other ny/ri blah blah states).
so if megabloguy.com was running amazon ads and he currently lives in CA, then he would be dropped from the program.

Offline hyperlinked

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 29 June 2011, 23:15:39 »
I hope this bites Amazon in the ass. I'm 100% for collecting sales tax on Internet purchases both because our state (California) really needs it and also because this exemption on sales tax is murder for local small biz retailers.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 30 June 2011, 00:04:12 »
Quote from: Lanx;370384
this doesn't affect california "per say" this only affects associates who do affiliate marketing for amazon and live in california (along with the other ny/ri blah blah states).
so if megabloguy.com was running amazon ads and he currently lives in CA, then he would be dropped from the program.

Correct, it affects the CA affiliates mostly, but the CA affiliates probably sell more out of California than in-state for the same tax reasons. I think it is a bad choice to try and squeeze Amazon just because they do a large amount of business. Just another example of unfriendly business tactics here in CA. I purchase hundreds of thousands of dollars of material every year mostly from out of state, then I re-sell. Last year California tried to levy a "Use Tax" on $ 800,000 of out of state purchases I made AFTER THE FACT. My tax would have been $70,000. It took almost a year and a lot of fighting to get out of that. My entire life there has never been sales tax for out of state purchases, via "mail-order" in the old days. It's hard to get used to.

Amazon won't lose much, if anything. Again, I would do the same thing.
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Offline wanabe

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 30 June 2011, 00:23:57 »
maybe amazon takes a small dink from this, but nobody is really gaining anything here...affiliates lose out on a huge audience, ca gains no new taxes from amazon, customers have less choices.  good deal all around

Offline 7bit

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 30 June 2011, 01:33:47 »
Quote from: hyperlinked;370392
I hope this bites Amazon in the ass. I'm 100% for collecting sales tax on Internet purchases both because our state (California) really needs it and also because this exemption on sales tax is murder for local small biz retailers.

 
- California will not earn one $ more through this stupidness.
- Amazon will not earn one $ less through this stupidness.
- The only ones who suffer from this are those who fund their websites with advertisements.

Somehow, I believe California is member of the EU. How else could it be that they make such stupid laws?
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 30 June 2011, 01:36:22 »
There will be new non-California affiliates from many states to replace quite a few of the 10,000 CA affiliates that have just been dropped. The new affiliates  will sell in California, generating no new sales taxes. The big difference is that the businesses are non-California businesses and the money doesn't come to California or get spent in California. The small mom and pop businesses in California still won't see much of an increase in business, because the people that buy online will still buy online. This isn't just about sales tax, it's about where the products come/go, employment, and overall money logistics. Consider all the sales tax on all the money that the 10,000 California affiliates would be spending in the state. And the jobs, income tax, and commerce. That's all gone now. I believe the lawmakers didn't think Amazon would do this, or they did it so they would look good.

Plan backfire.
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Offline hyperlinked

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 30 June 2011, 03:33:58 »
Nirvana, what does purchases made "after the fact" mean? If you made the purchases and they weren't taxed then they're subject to use tax. If you think you managed to dodge a large tax bill, you shouldn't be talking about it so publicly. It's one thing if you corrected a gross accounting error, but if you got away with one, they can still come back to get you later.

My view is going to be really unpopular here because many people here make decent income selling online and some need every advantage they can get to stay afloat. I have to deal with the brick and mortar side of the world all the time and those people are getting royally screwed and because they get screwed, I get screwed since they're my clients. There are also a lot of online retailers who have been levying the proper sales tax all along. They're getting screwed too. I'm sure Brian at EliteKeyboards isn't too upset today. I bought two keyboards from the guy and both times he charged me the proper sales tax for my purchase. The world just got a little bit fairer for him, for me, and for many of my clients.

This isn't a rant. I think people need to see the other side and I'm actually sympathetic to your argument as to why this new law is stupid, but I just can't accept it as a good enough reason to keep looking the other way. I can easily see how it could backfire and I'm fearful of that.  At the same time, I see no end to the erosion of what was a very dependable and necessary tax basis for local municipalities and a way of small business for a lot of people. While this could end up pushing sales elsewhere, the people who are evading their "use taxes" weren't going to be volunteering up that money anyway.

Making an attempt to level the playing field is risky, but totally ignoring that there's a problem isn't exactly a good solution. If this even partially works, there will be plenty of other states that will be lining up to close this loophole too. California isn't the only state that's hurting. We just make the headlines in a bigger way.

Also, "Use Tax" isn't just a California phenomenon. Every state except for Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, and Oregon ask for "use taxes". Most of them are just more lax about enforcing it. I'd rather see a federal mandate to ensure that every state enforces their use tax so that people can't just go buy from a seller who lives somewhere that makes it easier for their residents to cheat on their taxes.

It's not a pretty situation. The rules were not fair to a lot of people as they were and now they're not fair to people like you either. This does indeed have the potential to end up being a lose-lose scenario, but I'm still optimistic that something good will eventually come of it.
« Last Edit: Thu, 30 June 2011, 04:21:55 by hyperlinked »
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Offline Daniel Beaver

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 30 June 2011, 07:30:53 »
I hate sales taxes in general, and I love buying from Amazon, but...

All the arguments I have seen against taxing Amazon (and internet sales in general) fall flat in my mind. I don't like it, but this decision makes sense.

And on the other hand, I can't disagree with Amazon's decision to pull out of the state. They are allowed to take their ball and go home if they don't like the conditions forced upon them by California.
« Last Edit: Thu, 30 June 2011, 07:33:29 by Daniel Beaver »

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Offline Input Nirvana

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 30 June 2011, 10:22:05 »
Quote from: hyperlinked;370470
Nirvana, what does purchases made "after the fact" mean? If you made the purchases and they weren't taxed then they're subject to use tax. If you think you managed to dodge a large tax bill, you shouldn't be talking about it so publicly. It's one thing if you corrected a gross accounting error, but if you got away with one, they can still come back to get you later.

I had never been subject to the use tax, ever. Has it been on the books forever? Yes. But California has not enforced the use tax for many types of business until recently with the drop in revenue, which I understand and agree with. But once enforcement is begun, to go retroactively without notice or forewarning is unethical in principle. If I had known, I would have had the opportunity to conduct business differently and there would have been no problems at all. I play by the rules, but I need to know what those rules are. Also, most of the materials I buy are finished products that are only available in other states 80%, and 20% in California, so it's not that I'm trying to buy and avoid taxation, after all, I have a re-sell license. I try to keep money in the state. It was an ugly, bare-knuckle 10 month fight to have the $70,000 "forgiven". It involved threats of class-action suits, threats that I would close the business, and cost me thousands with the audits and legal fees. I triumphed, but at what cost? I'm not trying to get away with anything, I'm upfront with everything and just want the right thing to be done by all parties.

Quote from: hyperlinked;370470
My view is going to be really unpopular here because many people here make decent income selling online and some need every advantage they can get to stay afloat. I have to deal with the brick and mortar side of the world all the time and those people are getting royally screwed and because they get screwed, I get screwed since they're my clients. There are also a lot of online retailers who have been levying the proper sales tax all along. They're getting screwed too. I'm sure Brian at EliteKeyboards isn't too upset today. I bought two keyboards from the guy and both times he charged me the proper sales tax for my purchase. The world just got a little bit fairer for him, for me, and for many of my clients.

This isn't a rant. I think people need to see the other side and I'm actually sympathetic to your argument as to why this new law is stupid, but I just can't accept it as a good enough reason to keep looking the other way. I can easily see how it could backfire and I'm fearful of that.  At the same time, I see no end to the erosion of what was a very dependable and necessary tax basis for local municipalities and a way of small business for a lot of people. While this could end up pushing sales elsewhere, the people who are evading their "use taxes" weren't going to be volunteering up that money anyway.

Making an attempt to level the playing field is risky, but totally ignoring that there's a problem isn't exactly a good solution. If this even partially works, there will be plenty of other states that will be lining up to close this loophole too. California isn't the only state that's hurting. We just make the headlines in a bigger way.

Also, "Use Tax" isn't just a California phenomenon. Every state except for Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, and Oregon ask for "use taxes". Most of them are just more lax about enforcing it. I'd rather see a federal mandate to ensure that every state enforces their use tax so that people can't just go buy from a seller who lives somewhere that makes it easier for their residents to cheat on their taxes.

It's not a pretty situation. The rules were not fair to a lot of people as they were and now they're not fair to people like you either. This does indeed have the potential to end up being a lose-lose scenario, but I'm still optimistic that something good will eventually come of it.

There are no easy answers, but we make the world we live in, so we are all responsible for the outcome.
« Last Edit: Thu, 30 June 2011, 11:53:14 by input nirvana »
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 30 June 2011, 11:39:11 »
Quote from: acfrazier;370604
That's like saying if I own a house I am not subject to pay taxes on it (this varies by state, so please do not harp on me) simply because it isn't enforced. You just admitted to knowing about the tax, and yet not doing anything about it. Therefore you are the moron here. I hope CA comes back and bites you in the ass.

You're not very astute with tax laws. There are thousands of laws that are not enforced due to gentrification, amendments, application, etc. It is not a perfect system by any means. For the record I didn't know of the use tax, not that ignorance is an excuse. But no one in my industry was aware of a series of laws passed in the 1950's (before I was born) and were never applied until 2007. That was the basis of of the complaint and the threat of the class-action suit. They could have sent an intend-to-tax-notice. California ultimately agreed.

If you like, perhaps I can forward all of my contact information, and you can deal with the California Board of Equalization, Franchise Tax Board, etc. to inform them that you feel their decision is wrong, and they should bite my butt.

Thanks for your opinion, I won't respond to your comments in the future, this is a one-time freebie.

You sound like a lovely person. Have a nice day.
« Last Edit: Thu, 30 June 2011, 11:45:06 by input nirvana »
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Offline Lanx

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 30 June 2011, 12:16:46 »
Quote from: input nirvana;370412
Correct, it affects the CA affiliates mostly, but the CA affiliates probably sell more out of California than in-state for the same tax reasons.
No incorrect, as an associate it does not matter where you live, other than the fact that due to certain states have very strict internet-tax laws it is difficult to do so. for instance http://www.new novel ebooks.com could just be a website reviewing the latest ebooks and just have an ad pointing to the kindle. Now the owner of this website could live anywhere in the us and even the world (well some countries are not allowed). BUT, if that owner just so happens to live in these internet nono tax states such as CA, then he can't play amazon ads on his website anymore. Of course the next obvious move for this website owner would be to play sony reader ads or nook ads, unless of course this state law is about all internet orders and not amazon specifically?

Offline Input Nirvana

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 30 June 2011, 12:25:06 »
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-amazon-tax-20110630,0,4344787.story

Again, not an easy answer.

-JOB LOSSES
-less income tax collected
-less money being spent by the people that earn money working for or with business that are affected (home/car/food/clothing/etc. purchases)
-more out of state sales (money leaving the state)
-less products shipped to California
-less product shipped out from California
-less business conducted in California

Think of this:
Where do people play football? Stadiums? Parks? Streets?...They play where the ball is. Less business conducted in California is a bad thing.

Does this level the playing field? Theoretically, yes. In reality, doubtful. If Amazon and Overstock didn't pull out, then maybe.

I'm done with this thread, but wanted to point out the difficulties that exist.

I am not an Amazon affiliate.

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« Last Edit: Thu, 30 June 2011, 12:27:32 by input nirvana »
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 30 June 2011, 12:27:17 »
Quote from: Lanx;370636
No incorrect, as an associate it does not matter where you live, other than the fact that due to certain states have very strict internet-tax laws it is difficult to do so. for instance http://www.new novel ebooks.com could just be a website reviewing the latest ebooks and just have an ad pointing to the kindle. Now the owner of this website could live anywhere in the us and even the world (well some countries are not allowed). BUT, if that owner just so happens to live in these internet nono tax states such as CA, then he can't play amazon ads on his website anymore. Of course the next obvious move for this website owner would be to play sony reader ads or nook ads, unless of course this state law is about all internet orders and not amazon specifically?

All internet orders, not Amazon only. Amazon and Overstock are getting rid of their associates by tomorrow. Others may or may not do the same thing.

Right, the affiliate does not actually have sell physical anything (but he might, and very well probably does).
« Last Edit: Thu, 30 June 2011, 12:31:12 by input nirvana »
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Offline Lanx

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 30 June 2011, 13:25:51 »
if it is all internet orders, then 60% of the business world that does business online that has an affiliate program will drop any and all affiliates who have a residency in CA, that's what happened to the previous states.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 30 June 2011, 14:56:10 »
Quote from: acfrazier;370692
That seems a bit harsh. But, seeing as you probably have me on ignore I'm wasting my time to write this.

I'm not into getting into a silly scrape with you, it takes 2 people for that, and I don't really care to contribute to such nonsense. You offered a "personal" opinion about me (really?), which is very cool I suppose, but I disagree and will leave it at that. I don't believe your house analogy is accurate either, but no matter. My fight was less about the $70,000 than it was about the principle. I have a use tax tracker on everything that it applies to currently, now that myself and everyone else in our industry has been adequately informed.

I don't get involved enough in a forum to use ignore lists, that seems to give it far more importance that it could ever possibly justify.

I'm responding because it sounds like I may have hurt your feelings, and that is not my intention. I should have known better than to post or respond to anything in the "Off Topic" forum in the first place. Learned my lesson. I only did it because of the significance of online E-tailors relating to keyboards, etc, and how that applies to this forum and less about a political statement. I only cited my business altercation to put a face on it and highlight that entities such as municipalities, state government, and such are not autonomous organizations that operate without impunity. They can be wrong, and often are unfair since such large sweeping control can't really be "fair" to everybody all of the time.

Remember "We the People"...? Don't ever forget...government is us, we ARE the government. In the U.S. more than almost anywhere else. It's only as good as you make it.


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« Last Edit: Thu, 30 June 2011, 15:00:32 by input nirvana »
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Offline hyperlinked

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 02 July 2011, 10:28:38 »
I'm quite delayed in posting a follow-up and I don't really have anything else to add except to say that I wish everyone was as even keeled as Input Nirvana when someone disagrees with him. I was sure that this was going to end up being a pointless flame war, but it didn't.

I buy a healthy number of books through Amazon and as of this month, I am absolutely not buying anything from Amazon or through Amazon unless there is some crucial reason that I have to get it through them. Buying certain things on Amazon has simply become a reflex to the point that I stopped realizing other options for getting the same items. Well, I've rediscovered that Barnes and Noble has any book that I'd want too.
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Offline redpill

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 02 July 2011, 15:50:28 »
Yeah unfortunately, regardless of the intentions behind the legislation, in the end this just hurts California.  People aren't going to find a mom and pop store, they'll just find someplace else online to order it, probably out of state.  I shop online and pay the shipping not because I couldn't possibly find a product locally, but because I hate going to stores, so it's worth it for me.

After all, a retailer has a product shipped to them from the manufacturer too.  If you're a Californian willing to pay shipping to have a product shipped directly to you from another state, what does that have to do with California?

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Offline Input Nirvana

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 10:50:41 »
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Offline Lanx

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 13 July 2011, 04:03:03 »
i hope amazon wins and then eventually overturns the ny taxes too!

Offline Input Nirvana

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Amazon drops California associates
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 24 July 2011, 22:11:03 »
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