Red will be the new brown

[hybridsoul5]

Disclaimer: this is an opinion piece.

When I first joined the mechanical keyboard world, I was pointed to cherry browns by basically every source I read. The pros were good and there were few, if any, cons. Light activation, not too hard or soft, with a tactile bump that provides feedback without being as noisy as blues. Sounded perfect at the time so I went ahead and bought a keyboard with cherry browns.

After spending some time with the browns and getting some more experience with mechanical keyboards, I noticed a few things about the browns.

They really are great for a starter switch and they're readily available to US buyers.

The tactile bump is almost impossible to feel when typing quickly. Because of this, it provides no real feedback at normal typing speeds.

After some time, the bump begins to just get in the way of a switch that essentially functions as a linear switch. It feels like the key press is rough or grainy part way through the travel. I'm left wishing that the bump simply wasn't there.

I finally confirmed my thoughts today. I took a visit to Cleverly 2 in Akihabara and was able to test the switches side by side after finding a 10keyless in cherry red. After playing around with it, I realized that this was the switch I wanted my browns to feel like. The reds kept the nice, light, responsiveness of the browns and did away with the crappy bump that I had started to resent. They really felt great.

I honestly think the only reasons why more people don't recommend reds are that they are not as readily available as browns and an a result, fewer people have tried them. I still think browns are a great switch as an introduction into the mechanical keyboard cult. They're light, but not too light, responsive, not overly loud, and easy to find. But the next time you feel like grabbing a new keyboard and default to you standard browns, I entreat you to take a little risk. If the choice is there, take the reds.

TL DR: reds>browns *puts on fire suit*

[N8N]

no input on your post, but I really wish that I'd known where to go when I was in Japan to actually test drive some of this stuff.  Spent a while poking around Yodobashi Camera but that was about it.  Got a set of noise cancelling headphones for the flight home, which saved my sanity...

[Zhuni]

I do still think the browns are the perfect starter switch. You get a little taste of everything with them, and its easy to work out what you want more/less of.

[Tony]

Cherry Corporation knows how many brown and red switches are demanded by us each year.

They decided to stop produce red switches due to low global demand a few years ago.

[litster]

I agree with OP.  I had a brown, a topre, and really wanted to try red.  I am glad a did.  2 months later, I now have 3 reds and paired them with double-shot keycaps.  They are indeed very similar to brown.  But I like red better.  I still have 2 browns. I also agree that due to red being not as available as other switch types and more expensive, fewer people have used them and therefore fewer recommend them.  People usually what they know or what they have.  Now you can't even find Filco reds unless you buy from China or Taiwan.  Chinese clones still haven't shipped their red models AFAIK.

We need a Cherry Red Club thread!

[Tony]

Cherry Corporation knows how many brown and red switches are demanded by us each year.

They decided to stop produce red switches due to low global demand a few years ago.

[The Solutor]

The tactile bump is almost impossible to feel when typing quickly.

This is why brown should be superseded by ergo clears, just like what's happening with blacks v.s. reds.

Btw reds have their own appeal a completely different experience but a nice one.

[hybridsoul5]

Litster, we really do. I'm seriously considering going back there and picking up a red 10keyless if they're out of stock of the realforce I was eying...

Zhuni, I agree. For that reason, browns will always have their place. I just wish we had a larger selection of reds in the states.

[ch_123]

I agree with the OP, I found the Browns to be rather scratchy. There was no real satisfaction from typing on the switches. I've never typed on a full red switch keyboard, but I think it may be something of an improvement.

[nhwhaup]

I originally tried the browns as my first mechanical and kept wanting something better. For me the reds are perfect!  I love the light touch and use the sound dampening pads so I don't have any bottoming out.  I have both my full sized and tenkeyless reds decked out with white key caps and I've found my perfect keyboards. I have a Filco number pad to go along with my tenkeyless for at home but hardly ever use it as it has brown switches. After typing with the reds the browns just don't cut it for me anymore.  I even like the reds way better than my topres.

[daerid]

I have 3 red boards sitting on my desk in front of me: My Filco, Poker, and PLU. They are all awesome. Not so sure I agree with the sentiment about them being better than browns (well, plate mounted browns anyways), but I at the very least reds are my second favorite switch.

There's something about the stroke of a plate mounted brown switch that just satisfies me. The bump combined with the sound and the plate... I dunno.. it's just sexy to me. Reds are just barely under browns for me.

Just my $0.02.

[litster]

I have 3 red boards sitting on my desk in front of me: My Filco, Poker, and PLU. They are all awesome. Not so sure I agree with the sentiment about them being better than browns (well, plate mounted browns anyways), but I at the very least reds are my second favorite switch.

There's something about the stroke of a plate mounted brown switch that just satisfies me. The bump combined with the sound and the plate... I dunno.. it's just sexy to me. Reds are just barely under browns for me.

Just my $0.02.

And that's okay.  We all can have our own favorite or favorites.  I have so much love I can love them all!

[flaming_june]

I disagree.  But then again I've never had a single mechanical keyboard in which, I've kept for more than a year.

[IvanIvanovich]

Since I received my Poker reds its now my primary keyboard, replacing Leopold brown, which had previously replaced Cherry g80 with blacks. After thinking about it the browns does kind of feel like a red that had a day at the beach with sand got everywhere. Red is my favorite MX switch so far. Oddly enough I bottom out the least on these. Still waiting to try blues which I will get whenever the Poker groupbuy shows up.

[sordna]

I agree with the OP, and with kalrykh and ch_123 about the browns feeling gritty. Whet you type fast, you don't feel the bump. When you type slow, it feels vague & scratchy, and doesn't even match the actuation point.
So my preference is strongly for the red switches. For folks that like tactility, blues are better than browns anyway.

[HaiiYaa]

Sounds good The bump was the thing I hated about the browns too, so I went back to black. But they are just a bit too stiff for my liking

Tomorrow I will have the Leopold FC500R and I can't wait to try out the red switches

[Bern]

When you try reds and browns side by side it make it seem as if there is something wrong with the brown switches.  The reds feel so much cleaner and smoother by comparison.

[daerid]

That's funny, cuz I feel like something's missing in the reds

[Trueepower]

I have only tried blues, and now reds. I didn't like the tactile feeling overall with blues especially during games. I didn't have a problem though with the spring of blues. It was just the bump, it made me think of the bump (like I could feel it coming in the back of my head) and that made me just think too much while typing, and gaming. The tactile bump was especially annoying while riding the actuating point while using WASD and moving.

Its just a matter of preference. With the reds I feel a smooth "swift" key press that is satisfying. The benefits of using a stiffer switch is to reduce accidental key presses, and that is definitively good. Tactile feedback can be good for learning to touch type, and then to know you have pressed a key while gaming.

All key switches will continue to have a fan club. The red switch should eventually become as popular or maybe even more popular than most switches. Once they are widely available. I thought it was hype at first while circling the forums, but the reds really are smooth to type on. They have simple, but yet satisfying feeling to them. In gaming I still see blacks as great, and in some ways better. They would prevent accidental key presses. Reds help while holding down buttons, and are just less stress on the fingers (so can prevent any type of possible fatigue). I see blacks, and reds as great for gaming as many have said. Both with different benefits. Its just that many people need to type a lot, and do not prefer blacks for typing. I haven't tried blacks myself, and would probably find them alright. But, lighter does seem to be a good thing while typing, gaming for hours on end.

The red switches are so easy to press down, and so smooth that's really hard seeing "a lighter" switch being produced by cherry. The actual force needed is so little that it doesn't seem necessary to have anything lighter than a red, or brown spring. I can only imagine what a Topre 30g switch must feel like.

Reds are the only switch I have heard people say they like more than Topre switches. That is indeed a big statement to make. Considering that Topre are considered hands down overall the most comfortable switch.

[daerid]

What's funny about that is Cherry initially dropped red production due to low demand, and now they're fetching a premium price because there's not much availability and so many people want reds.

Even though I say I like Browns more than reds, I do have 3 Red boards, and only 2 Brown boards (one of which I don't like that much since it's PCB mounted - the Poker). Do what you will with that.

[litster]

Reds feel and sound even better when you use them with old-school, thick cherry double shot keycaps.

[RiGS]

When you try reds and browns side by side it make it seem as if there is something wrong with the brown switches.  The reds feel so much cleaner and smoother by comparison.

 
I find it similar comparing Cherry mx switches with Topre.
The Topre is so much smoother and frictionless, yet I think the springy cherry switches are the better.

[Chobopants]

That's funny, cuz I feel like something's missing in the reds

I agree with you daerid. The Reds are my daily driver at work and the Browns are my daily at home. I have to say that I prefer my browns a bit more as they just has that neat little bump that makes them pretty unique. Probably tied with Topre and Blacks as the most fun to type on switch.

While I find the Reds less fun to type on I use them for my mass typing at work because they're arguably the easiest on my fingers. As I've said multiple times in many threads, if there were any keyboard that I could give if I could only choose one it would be my Browns. Even after having all of the core switches I have to say that the Browns are still my go to switch.

[Bern]

That's funny, cuz I feel like something's missing in the reds

 
I was able to try reds at the same time I tried browns.  Never having touched either before may have had an effect on my opinion.

[litster]

Yes, switch preference is very personal.  It depends on what you used before, what you are currently using now, your hand size and finger strength.  It is great that there are quite a few different switch types for us to choose from.

[REVENGE]

Any more opinions on Red vs. Blue? Need to make a decision so I can order my KBC Poker.

[elitekeyboards]

Browns tend to grow on most people, so I always contend that they're the most well rounded switch in the MX lineup. If someone opines that reds *feel* the best, that's fine, but if you're gonna get picky about switches, the usage needs to be considered as well. Tactile switches have the advantage of confirmation of actuation by feel, whereas linear switches do not; linear actuation must be visually confirmed (or aurally if you have an app that makes fake clicky sounds when you type:)...or you can just bottom-out every keystroke, but this ignores one of the advantages of mechanical switches to begin with: being able to type with confidence that every switch will actuate consistently mid-stroke; gorillas need not apply.

[sordna]

The problem with the browns, is that they're hardly tactile. As some folks pointed out they feel like something's wrong with the switch... it's just frictiony and the bump is vague. It doesn't even match the actuation point... I can get past the bump without registering a keystroke. It can best be described as a tactile switch that lost its tactileness, or a linear switch that got some dirt inside. I've been using browns for years, what a relief the Advantage LF keyboard has been with the reds!

[litster]

I do bottom out regularly.  That may explains why I like red.  Plus with thick double shot keycaps, there is more "bass" in the throck sound when you buttom out, which I like.

[sordna]

Browns tend to grow on most people, so I always contend that they're the most well rounded switch in the MX lineup.

I wouldn't call them well-rounded, I would call them a bad compromise; an indecisive switch!
The problem with the browns, is that they're hardly tactile. As some folks pointed out they feel like something's wrong with the switch... it's just frictiony and the bump is vague. It doesn't even match the actuation point... I can get past the bump without registering a keystroke. It can best be described as a tactile switch that lost its tactileness, or a linear switch that got some dirt inside. I've been using browns for years, what a relief the Advantage LF keyboard has been with the reds!

[Input Nirvana]

Brown, maybe not enough tactile bump.
Reds, no tactile bump. (brown springs)

So what about a switch with Brown springs and more tactile bump?
---Ergo Clears---?

I want to get 3 samples of each switch.

[sordna]

I haven't tried ergo clears. How do they feel compared to blue switches?

[litster]

I have a ton of clear switches now.  I just don't have enough blue or brown springs.  anyone has some for trade for clear stems?  I want to try ergo clear...

[AndrewZorn]

After a few days with my Red board, I'm missing the click, and may go back to Blue. For a FPS game or something, it would be fine, but typing and SC2 do seem to benefit from the feedback... the feel is subjective and I go back and forth all the time as to which I'd ultimately prefer.

Good thing there's a Brown on its way. I started with Brown, would be funny if I ended up using it exclusively again after two years.

[Trueepower]

After a few days with my Red board, I'm missing the click, and may go back to Blue. For a FPS game or something, it would be fine, but typing and SC2 do seem to benefit from the feedback... the feel is subjective and I go back and forth all the time as to which I'd ultimately prefer.

Good thing there's a Brown on its way. I started with Brown, would be funny if I ended up using it exclusively again after two years.

 
That's the thing some people really prefer the feedback, and I can see their perspective as well. During gaming there were times when I really liked the feedback, and then there were times when I didn't. Overall, I found tactile feedback helpful at times, but not necessary for everyday use. I just see both perspectives though.

[Trueepower]

I do bottom out regularly.  That may explains why I like red.  Plus with thick double shot keycaps, there is more "bass" in the throck sound when you buttom out, which I like.

 
That's exactly how I think. I am going to bottom out a lot anyways so why pick a spring with more resistance, and why have tactile feedback? I think for tactile feedback was good in someways though while gaming. Just overall not needed. Although, as I said in my last post.... I see both perspectives. People are different, they like different switches.

I wish I could get my hands on some double shots. That definitely would create a different sound when bottoming out.

[bojinglebells]

i'd rather have brown in my pants than red *cough*

and I'd rather have clearish/white

[elitekeyboards]

I wouldn't call them well-rounded, I would call them a bad compromise; an indecisive switch!
The problem with the browns, is that they're hardly tactile. As some folks pointed out they feel like something's wrong with the switch... it's just frictiony and the bump is vague. It doesn't even match the actuation point... I can get past the bump without registering a keystroke. It can best be described as a tactile switch that lost its tactileness, or a linear switch that got some dirt inside. I've been using browns for years, what a relief the Advantage LF keyboard has been with the reds!

Yawn...you're being sensational. It really doesn't matter to me if people prefer browns over reds...we just carry more reds and sell the same amount of boards...but I'm not still in business because I make knee-jerk decisions and listen to hype.

You're of course entitled to your opinion, but saying things like you can "get past the bump without registering a keystroke" sounds like exaggeration..."oh yea? if I press this switch eversoslightly at a rate of 0.1mm per second I can pass the bump without actuating..." And so what? Lots of people can "trick" systems that otherwise work perfectly fine in normal intended operational environments, but it doesn't mean it is a failure as a system. The fact linear switches have no tactile indication of actuation is MAJOR shortcoming for people who aren't looking at the screen or point of input while typing something.

[HaiiYaa]

The fact linear switches have no tactile indication of actuation is MAJOR shortcoming for people who aren't looking at the screen or point of input while typing something.

 
Really? Never ever was a problem for me

After using linear switches for more than a week you will know exactly when its the keypress have been registered

[elitekeyboards]

Really? Never ever was a problem for me

After using linear switches for more than a week you will know exactly when its the keypress have been registered

"Never ever" is one week? I've been using them for over a year off and on. I'm unimpressed. They're so light with no tactility you almost always bottom out, so that might not be a problem most the time, but that doesn't mean it won't always not be a problem.

I'm not here to spread FUD, like I said, brown or red makes no difference to me, so arguing with me on this basis in any regard is of no utility. The point is that browns have been a staple for a long time, and for good reason, with good research and millions of hours of field testing; reds have not. The grass is always greener on the other side...

[flaming_june]

I do bottom out regularly.  That may explains why I like red.  Plus with thick double shot keycaps, there is more "bass" in the throck sound when you buttom out, which I like.

Understandable, as the more quicker we type, the more force we apply with each finger.  As you said, it's about personal preference.  LOL, never ever.

[sordna]

The fact linear switches have no tactile indication of actuation is MAJOR shortcoming for people who aren't looking at the screen or point of input while typing something.

I'm not saying tactility is a bad thing. It's great, implemented correctly, like in the case of buckling springs or cherry blues. However the cherry browns' tactility doesn't provide enough feedback. You can't "float" the keypresses they way you can with buckling springs or cherry blues... it just feels like a weird friction with the brown switches in particular, at least to me.
I like blues, and I love reds, each for different reasons, but I find browns a mediocre switch.

[litster]

The grass is always more red to me

[The Solutor]

I wouldn't call them well-rounded, I would call them a bad compromise; an indecisive switch!
The problem with the browns, is that they're hardly tactile. As some folks pointed out they feel like something's wrong with the switch... it's just frictiony and the bump is vague. It doesn't even match the actuation point... I can get past the bump without registering a keystroke. It can best be described as a tactile switch that lost its tactileness, or a linear switch that got some dirt inside. I've been using browns for years, what a relief the Advantage LF keyboard has been with the reds!

 

Exactly

[The Solutor]

So what about a switch with Brown springs and more tactile bump?

 
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?17357-U9BL-Beige-edition-(clear-switches-brown-springs)&p=333606&viewfull=1#post333606

[HaiiYaa]

"Never ever" is one week? I've been using them for over a year off and on. I'm unimpressed. They're so light with no tactility you almost always bottom out, so that might not be a problem most the time, but that doesn't mean it won't always not be a problem.

I'm not here to spread FUD, like I said, brown or red makes no difference to me, so arguing with me on this basis in any regard is of no utility. The point is that browns have been a staple for a long time, and for good reason, with good research and millions of hours of field testing; reds have not. The grass is always greener on the other side...

Not everyone is the same. I absolutely HATE the bump

You been using them for a year but yet haven't learned to touch type?

[Input Nirvana]

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?17357-U9BL-Beige-edition-(clear-switches-brown-springs)&p=333606&viewfull=1#post333606

AAAhhh....your "ergo clear" mod I was just reading! Is my best bet to go to Mouser or Digikey and buy the handful of misc. switches to try out?

[daerid]

The point is that browns have been a staple for a long time, and for good reason, with good research and millions of hours of field testing; reds have not.

 
Not yet... but apparently the demand for reds is growing, and growing pretty strong.

Speaking of which, after lubing up the stabilizers on this PLU ML-87, I'm almost diggin it more than my Filco Linear R... maybe it's the material the caps are made up. But the sound is most satisfying.

[The Solutor]

AAAhhh....your "ergo clear" mod I was just reading! Is my best bet to go to Mouser or Digikey and buy the handful of misc. switches to try out?

 

You could take a look also to armygroup (last time I checked they were sold out) and to cherry boards off ebay.

For me a brand new cherry board was the cheapest option, likely for you is different...

[Trueepower]

"Never ever" is one week? I've been using them for over a year off and on. I'm unimpressed. They're so light with no tactility you almost always bottom out, so that might not be a problem most the time, but that doesn't mean it won't always not be a problem.

I'm not here to spread FUD, like I said, brown or red makes no difference to me, so arguing with me on this basis in any regard is of no utility. The point is that browns have been a staple for a long time, and for good reason, with good research and millions of hours of field testing; reds have not. The grass is always greener on the other side...

 
The grass isn't always greener on the other side. It just so happens that the popularity of browns, and reds is more even than maybe anticipated. How even is it? Who knows. But, there seems to be a legit following for red switches developing. Time will tell how many people really like red switches.