Author Topic: Buying First Buckling Spring Keyboard (Read 18843 times)

HighNoon · « **on:** Wed, 06 July 2011, 15:00:12 »

I have never typed on a buckling spring keyboard, and I want to try one.

I have been browsing ClickyKeyboards a bit and noticed that I can get a used IBM Model M 1391401 (white label) 1987-1992 for $80, the same price as a Unicomp 101/104/105/SpaceSaver. After reading a lot on here, it seems like the 1391401 white label is the best Model M for someone new to buckling springs.

After browsing Unicomp's site a bit I can't see any major differences between between the 101/104/105/Spacesaver except for the fact that the 101 doesn't have windows keys and the SpaceSaver's case is a bit smaller than the others.

I like the Unicomp boards because I like the idea of getting a new, non-used product, but I know that sacrifices in quality have been made over time, resulting in modern Unicomps not being built as well as old Model Ms. (reference Ripster's Wiki)

tl;dr Deciding between Model M 1391401, Unciomp 101/104/105/SpaceSaver. What would you recommend?

woody · « **Reply #1 on:** Wed, 06 July 2011, 15:42:58 »

Quote from: HighNoon;374740

tl;dr Deciding between Model M 1391401, Unciomp 101/104/105/SpaceSaver. What would you recommend?

Unicomp. Has the nice side effect of keeping them in business.

gilgam · « **Reply #2 on:** Wed, 06 July 2011, 15:51:55 »

GO unicomp

I bought them a customizer 102 (azerty iso) service is fine, shipping is fast and you have the pleasure to get a brand new USB fantastic keyboard (my topre lies in a cupboard now), with new keycaps.

I don't have any share but go Unicomp. Model M are overpriced (they may be heavier and feel sturdier but they are old, may have some broken plastic rivets and you have to buy a ps2/usb adaptator within years as ps/2 disappear).

(am i good jim owens ? :-)
now just send me my left green shift ISO...)

pederlol · « **Reply #3 on:** Wed, 06 July 2011, 16:09:14 »

Please tell me if they are able to ship a left green shift ISO... I want an RBG modifier set so bad

TexasFlood · « **Reply #4 on:** Wed, 06 July 2011, 16:20:12 »

I would kinda like to get a Unicomp Spacesaver. Thing is that I already have a bucking spring and the Rosewill RK-9000 which I'm actually using now so kinda hard to justify. But at some point I'm going to have to have one.

HighNoon · « **Reply #5 on:** Wed, 06 July 2011, 16:37:46 »

Quote from: TexasFlood;374794

I would kinda like to get a Unicomp Spacesaver. Thing is that I already have a bucking spring and the Rosewill RK-9000 which I'm actually using now so kinda hard to justify. But at some point I'm going to have to have one.

I'm in a similar predicament. I really don't need another keyboard... but I want one. I already have my Leopold for home and my PLU for work (when it arrives). A Unicomp SpaceSaver is only $90 shipped though, so I'm sure it will be an impulse buy in the near future.

REVENGE · « **Reply #6 on:** Wed, 06 July 2011, 16:43:36 »

Quote from: HighNoon;374811

I'm in a similar predicament. I really don't need another keyboard... but I want one. I already have my Leopold for home and my PLU for work (when it arrives). A Unicomp SpaceSaver is only $90 shipped though, so I'm sure it will be an impulse buy in the near future.

If you're buying new, get a Unicomp for the same price. It has a 104 key layout and intact rivets.

N8N · « **Reply #7 on:** Wed, 06 July 2011, 19:25:30 »

My personal opinion is get the cheapest 1391401 you can off eBay or your local Goodwill (if they have such.) I bought a cheap one just for the keycaps and ended up "restoring" it (really cleaning it and replacing the missing caps) and it was my favorite board until it got lost in a move. Maybe I just got lucky but these boards don't really seem to go bad. Built like little clicky tanks.

REVENGE · « **Reply #8 on:** Wed, 06 July 2011, 19:40:12 »

Quote from: N8N;374952

My personal opinion is get the cheapest 1391401 you can off eBay or your local Goodwill (if they have such.) I bought a cheap one just for the keycaps and ended up "restoring" it (really cleaning it and replacing the missing caps) and it was my favorite board until it got lost in a move. Maybe I just got lucky but these boards don't really seem to go bad. Built like little clicky tanks.

Always good if you can find one cheap, but for $90 it better be bolt-modded and like new.

HighNoon · « **Reply #9 on:** Wed, 06 July 2011, 19:41:56 »

Quote from: N8N;374952

My personal opinion is get the cheapest 1391401 you can off eBay or your local Goodwill (if they have such.) I bought a cheap one just for the keycaps and ended up "restoring" it (really cleaning it and replacing the missing caps) and it was my favorite board until it got lost in a move. Maybe I just got lucky but these boards don't really seem to go bad. Built like little clicky tanks.

That sounds interesting but I'm lazy and don't really want to go hunt down a board at goodwill or somewhere similar. eBay might be an option... I'm checking prices now.

If I decide to go Unicomp, I'm going to go for the SpaceSaver since it is the same price as the 101/104/105 and is simply better. Should I go PS/2 or USB though?

theferenc · « **Reply #10 on:** Wed, 06 July 2011, 20:20:58 »

I've got bolt modded Model Ms, about to post them for sale in the classifieds in the next day or so (need to finish a couple, take pictures, etc.). Not sure if you would be interested in that as an option, but they are cheaper than a new Unicomp. More expensive than all but the nicer or overpriced ones on ebay though, generally.

Shoot me a PM if you're interested.

N8N · « **Reply #11 on:** Wed, 06 July 2011, 20:21:58 »

Quote from: HighNoon;374965

That sounds interesting but I'm lazy and don't really want to go hunt down a board at goodwill or somewhere similar. eBay might be an option... I'm checking prices now.

If I decide to go Unicomp, I'm going to go for the SpaceSaver since it is the same price as the 101/104/105 and is simply better. Should I go PS/2 or USB though?

personal preference. personally I don't like space saver keyboards, but whatever makes you happy. 1391401 and Unicomp both are only 2KRO so there's really no difference PS/2 or USB.

TacticalCoder · « **Reply #12 on:** Wed, 06 July 2011, 20:42:50 »

Quote from: N8N;374986

1391401 and Unicomp both are only 2KRO so there's really no difference PS/2 or USB.

Besides the fact that there are already quite some computers (like a great many laptops) not offering a PS/2 port anymore ; ) (not that this ever prevented me from acquiring vintage keyboards but still, that's a difference worth mentionning)

HighNoon · « **Reply #13 on:** Wed, 06 July 2011, 21:02:01 »

Quote from: TacticalCoder;374993

Besides the fact that there are already quite some computers (like a great many laptops) not offering a PS/2 port anymore ; ) (not that this ever prevented me from acquiring vintage keyboards but still, that's a difference worth mentionning)

My desktop has a PS/2 port so I should be fine. However... my Macbook Air does not (no surprise there). I only plan on using the keyboard with my desktop though, so no worries. I'll still probably go with USB if I get a Unicomp though

sordna · « **Reply #14 on:** Wed, 06 July 2011, 21:54:27 »

I hear Unicomp ones have lighter springs than the old IBMs, so would be more comfortable to type on. I'd go Unicomp, the Endurapro/USB looks nice, one cable handles keyboard and trackpoint !

TexasFlood · « **Reply #15 on:** Wed, 06 July 2011, 22:00:10 »

Quote from: N8N;374986

personal preference. personally I don't like space saver keyboards, but whatever makes you happy. 1391401 and Unicomp both are only 2KRO so there's really no difference PS/2 or USB.

Personally I'd go with USB which is really the standard going forward and get a PS/2 adapter if needed.

False_Dmitry_II · « **Reply #16 on:** Wed, 06 July 2011, 23:27:04 »

Unless the controller on the keyboard supports it USB to PS/2 does not exist.

In other words, filcos, etc have both protocols on their controllers.

There is no such thing as an active USB to PS/2 adapter.

TexasFlood · « **Reply #17 on:** Thu, 07 July 2011, 07:36:55 »

Quote from: TexasFlood;375047

Personally I'd go with USB which is really the standard going forward and get a PS/2 adapter if needed.

Quote from: False_Dmitry_II;375122

Unless the controller on the keyboard supports it USB to PS/2 does not exist.

In other words, filcos, etc have both protocols on their controllers.

There is no such thing as an active USB to PS/2 adapter.

I stand corrected. So if you need it to work with both USB and PS/2, you'll probably want to get PS/2 with a PS/2toUSB adapter like the Belkin deal that has recently been posted about here.

weipim · « **Reply #18 on:** Thu, 07 July 2011, 08:23:24 »

FYI i got my brand new model m (from 1995) for 80 usd, I bought it just because it was brand new.

If I am you instead of spending 80 dollars on a used model m, i'd get unicomp

westajay · « **Reply #19 on:** Thu, 07 July 2011, 14:45:20 »

Love my unicomp spacesaver

aggiejy · « **Reply #20 on:** Fri, 08 July 2011, 15:38:58 »

Gig'em Aggies. Class of '02. ;-)

PlayerZero · « **Reply #21 on:** Fri, 08 July 2011, 15:40:09 »

Quote from: nycemac;376380

hope you didnt spend 80$ on something you could have bought for less...

nyce
516.997.7197 - mention geekhack, i guarantee you i charge much less than that.

Fail advertiser fails. C'mon admins. He might not be in NY, and gas to drive there would cost a ****load more than $80. Don't even get me started on plane tickets.

alaricljs · « **Reply #22 on:** Fri, 08 July 2011, 15:47:53 »

PZ - NYCE is legit and that is their number and they are in Westbury... and they can pack a box and ship as easily as you could. Not that I ever bought from them, but I'm in the general neighborhood so I know of them.

HighNoon · « **Reply #23 on:** Fri, 08 July 2011, 20:03:01 »

Did I miss nycemac's post? Where did it go?

HighNoon · « **Reply #24 on:** Fri, 08 July 2011, 20:04:13 »

Quote from: aggiejy;376382

Gig'em Aggies. Class of '02. ;-)

Haha. Gig'em. I'm class of '11, just graduated.

alaricljs · « **Reply #25 on:** Fri, 08 July 2011, 20:08:20 »

Yeah, it got nailed... Apparently the dude had no self control and decided to plaster his name/number on multiple threads... on top of turning out to be a jerk by posting his willingness to publish POs from clients to prove his claims, not to mention an attempt to sully someone here.

PlayerZero · « **Reply #26 on:** Fri, 08 July 2011, 20:28:40 »

He sounded like a **** to me.

bettablue · « **Reply #27 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 14:55:38 »

I personally love my model M's. The last bolt modded 401 cost only $35.00, and is actually better than new. But either way you go, there will be good points, and bad. You just have to weigh those and decide for yourself. In the end, only you can tell if an original Model M, or a Unicomp is best for you.

The Solutor · « **Reply #28 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 15:48:14 »

Quote from: HighNoon;374740

tl;dr Deciding between Model M 1391401, Unciomp 101/104/105/SpaceSaver. What would you recommend?

Why not start with a nice and cheap M2 to test the feel, and buy a model M later, if you like it ?

theferenc · « **Reply #29 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 17:14:20 »

Because so many M2 keyboards don't function without putting in a lot of work replacing dried out caps. And you never know until you get it, since there is often a lag between testing and sale.

ch_123 · « **Reply #30 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 17:22:28 »

Because M2s are far more rare than Model Ms? They're around the same price when they actually do show up anyway. They're also not up to the same standard.

I'd go for Unicomp, that way you get the piece of mind of getting a new one with a warranty.

hella · « **Reply #31 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 17:32:02 »

Hey guys, I've heard from many people that unicomp buckling springs are lighter than the IBM/Lexmark varieties. Has anyone empirically verified this, and if so, how much lighter is the former board?

theferenc · « **Reply #32 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 17:35:50 »

I haven't noticed anything with my Unicomp, but it's currently in the office, so I can't verify it for you right this second. If no one else has chimed in before tomorrow, I'll head over and give it some nickels.

TexasFlood · « **Reply #33 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 17:43:09 »

Quote from: hella;377691

Hey guys, I've heard from many people that unicomp buckling springs are lighter than the IBM/Lexmark varieties. Has anyone empirically verified this, and if so, how much lighter is the former board?

Per, I think Ripster, in the Wiki Keyboard Peak and Activation Forces section:
IBM Model F - 62g - Source (measured using Euro 10c.).
IBM Model M - 70g - Source.
Unicomp SpaceSaver- Buckling Spring - 65-70g.
Most people think that the Unicomps are a tad lighter than a Model M. This difference however is hard to measure because of the rather random nature of a spring buckling and is maybe 2-3g at most.

The Solutor · « **Reply #34 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 19:00:05 »

Quote from: theferenc;377680

Because so many M2 keyboards don't function without putting in a lot of work replacing dried out caps. And you never know until you get it, since there is often a lag between testing and sale.

Half $ and 20 minutes of work (most of them spent in opening the case) aren't really a dealbreaker..

The Solutor · « **Reply #35 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 19:05:47 »

Quote from: ch_123;377687

Because M2s are far more rare than Model Ms?

Ascaii only had 8 or 9 of them to sell in the last weeks

Quote

They're around the same price when they actually do show up anyway.

For something like 15€

Quote

They're also not up to the same standard.

They have pros and cons, btw a keyboard that lasted 20 years looks more than robust to me.

theferenc · « **Reply #36 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 19:17:25 »

20 minutes of work for an EE or someone similarly comfortable with electrical work. For most people though, it would take much longer than that. Also, if it takes you most of 20 minutes to open up the case of any keyboard, something is a bit wrong.

hella · « **Reply #37 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 19:21:21 »

Thanks for the help. It sounds like there's a marginal difference between both boards!

Theferenc, if price were not an issue, would you prefer the same model unicomp or model M keyboard?

The Solutor · « **Reply #38 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 19:22:40 »

Quote from: theferenc;377739

Also, if it takes you most of 20 minutes to open up the case of any keyboard, something is a bit wrong.

Looks like you've never opened an M2

Quote

20 minutes of work for an EE or someone similarly comfortable with electrical work.

Replacing the capacitors is matter of 30 seconds for people comfortable with electrical work, maybe 5 minutes for anyone with a minimal skill in manual works.

theferenc · « **Reply #39 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 20:27:43 »

My first buckling spring keyboard was a Unicomp with a customized layout. Since then, I've only purchased IBM made Model M keyboards, preferably from before 1990. The main reason for this is that I prefer the older wire stabilizers on the vertical keys, as I feel they are smoother.

Also, I'm a bit iffy on the controller in the Unicomps. Well, not the controller itself, but the contact based connection for the ribbon cables. They just sit there, and according to ripster at least, can short if you torque the sides of the keyboard in opposite directions (not sure why would do that, but...).

Further, if you're going to bolt mod the keyboard at all -- I do to change the layout -- the Unicomp and Lexmark Model Ms are not the best choices for this, due to their controller position and the issue I mention above. It's kinda frustrating to put it all back together. But if you're only bolt modding to change the layout, just order that layout direct from Unicomp. That's by far the easiest way to go, especially if you get it in USB and use it on multiple computers. No remapping necessary.

On the other side, Unicomps come with warranties, and if anything goes wrong, they fix it for you. With any Model M, you're on your own. I have enough spare parts it isn't a problem if I lose a key, or a spring gets wonky or loose.

If you're only getting 1, and using it as is with no intention of opening it up or modifying it, I would probably go for the Unicomp. If you're more interested in mods, or enjoy refurbishing keyboards, as I do, then a Model M might be your best bet. I would still stick to the 1391401 models, though, simply due to the controller changes.

Maybe I'm overly concerned about that, but I just feel the older ones are much more robust. The really old ones, that I like the best, are even more robust, but comparitively harder to find, due mainly to their age. Also, I imagine as time when on, more and more were made, simply because more and more computers were in use in the business world. In the late 80s, that was much less common.

jpc · « **Reply #40 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 21:56:41 »

I like newer IBM-branded Model Ms from the 1990s. In the wild, these often are cleaner and with crisper springs than 1980s boards. Meanwhile, the belief that early boards are desirable has made newer boards more affordable. Some of the design changes were for the better, like the addition of drainage channels.

The design differences over time are slight. If you like one Model M you'll like another.

bdpq · « **Reply #41 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 22:05:07 »

Those IBM buckling boards are build to last. Of all the M, I really like those 122-key terminal boards. It reminds me of the computer classes in high school. We used to fist-punch the keyboard for, er, a primitive NKRO test, and see what keys would register. Those keyboards survived the kids before and after us. It's amazing.

theferenc · « **Reply #42 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 22:18:24 »

Oh, there are definitely very few differences. I definitely like typing on Unicomps. I just don't like taking them apart. Well, really I don't like putting them back together.

False_Dmitry_II · « **Reply #43 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 22:42:25 »

The one that I use when I use a model M (I have 2) is a 42 model. This is mainly because the other (older) one is alot noisier. I don't know how many rivets on either are missing because I haven't actually opened either one yet.

theferenc · « **Reply #44 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 22:56:28 »

That does tend to be the issue. Newer ones are, well, newer, and so less likely to have broken rivets. Like I said, I have no problems with the newer ones, but if you're going to get them, I would definitely just get the Unicomp, since it is basically a 42H with a different badge.

hella · « **Reply #45 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 23:25:16 »

Awesome buddy, that's some great insight and that clarified a few questions I had. I was under the impression that newer Model M's were incorrectly labeled as inferior to white labels. However if the internals are different there may be foundation to the belief that older, is, indeed better.

theferenc · « **Reply #46 on:** Sun, 10 July 2011, 23:31:20 »

It really depends on what you want to do with them. I like to take them apart, swap out the springs, and put them back together. I enjoy doing it. It's a way to relax for me. Doing that on a newer one just isn't as satisfying, partially because it isn't necessary, partially because it's a PITA to put back together.

If you aren't doing that, there isn't really any difference between the newer and older models. I do, so for me, there is a difference. But for most people? Not an issue. They are functionally identical.

ch_123 · « **Reply #47 on:** Mon, 11 July 2011, 04:08:47 »

Quote from: The Solutor;377730

Ascaii only had 8 or 9 of them to sell in the last weeks

For something like 15€

Yeah, but usually they are relatively hard to find. Unless Ascaii has a bottomless supply.

Quote

They have pros and cons,

The M2 is lighter and more compact. That's about it in terms of advantages. The regular M is far better built. Some would say better to type on, but I found the M2 had a good typing feel too.

Quote

btw a keyboard that lasted 20 years looks more than robust to me.

Obviously you've never had to deal with busted rivets, fried membrane traces, worn out springs, and other things that you often encounter with older Ms. If buying my first one, I'd go with one that will work.

Supporting Unicomp is also a good thing.

Quote from: theferenc;377786

Also, I'm a bit iffy on the controller in the Unicomps. Well, not the controller itself, but the contact based connection for the ribbon cables. They just sit there, and according to ripster at least, can short if you torque the sides of the keyboard in opposite directions (not sure why would do that, but...).

That claim sounds dubious. You'd probably have to do that to the internal assembly and not the casing itself. Even then, I'm not sure.

The controller is presssed against contacts on the membrane, but the controller is held in a secure way.

Quote

Further, if you're going to bolt mod the keyboard at all -- I do to change the layout -- the Unicomp and Lexmark Model Ms are not the best choices for this, due to their controller position and the issue I mention above.

Depends on the Lexmark. It only applies to their 42H1292 and related keyboards, which were in the minority compared to the large number of Lexmarks made with the traditional style of controller.

Quote from: hella;377903

Awesome buddy, that's some great insight and that clarified a few questions I had. I was under the impression that newer Model M's were incorrectly labeled as inferior to white labels. However if the internals are different there may be foundation to the belief that older, is, indeed better.

IBM Wiki

See "Are old Model Ms better than newer ones"

The Solutor · « **Reply #48 on:** Mon, 11 July 2011, 05:39:31 »

Quote from: ch_123;378024

Yeah, but usually they are relatively hard to find. Unless Ascaii has a bottomless supply.

Until no one suggest them as good boards, few boards for sale are enough to feed the demand...

Quote

The M2 is lighter and more compact. That's about it in terms of advantages.

Although the model Ms can't be considered ugly, M2s have a way nicer design, they look more Olivetti than IBM.

Quote

The regular M is far better built.

Already discussed here, stronger, heavier, sturdier, bigger aren't always synonyms of better.

Personally I consider the curved profile the only true advantage of Model Ms v.s. M2s

Quote

Obviously you've never had to deal with busted rivets, fried membrane traces, worn out springs, and other things that you often encounter with older Ms. If buying my first one, I'd go with one that will work.

I rebuilt my first membrane on my ZX spectrum in 1982 or 83, one or two year before the Model M release...

Due to rivets (one of the bad things present in model Ms) they are missing on M2

Quote

Supporting Unicomp is also a good thing.

I think Unicomp should support itself with innovation, they really need to do something to attract the new generations, and not just the nostalgic people.

Sell product that people like, and you seell a lot of them, is in this way that free market should work...

ch_123 · « **Reply #49 on:** Mon, 11 July 2011, 06:54:09 »

Quote from: The Solutor;378041

Until no one suggest them as good boards, few boards for sale are enough to feed the demand...

Not really. There's more than enough demand for IBM boards on the second hand market. The reason there are not as many being sold is because of a much shorter production life (5 years vs 25 years), the relatively limited number of systems that they were distributed with and the fact that they die so easily meaning that people are throwing them out instead of selling them on

Quote

Already discussed here, stronger, heavier, sturdier, bigger aren't always synonyms of better.

Personally I consider the curved profile the only true advantage of Model Ms v.s. M2s

There's the flimsier quality of construction, including those ridiculous plastic stablizers that were used on the keys, of which I've seen more than a few break. It's also harder to get replacement keycaps because they aren't made any more. The innards are pretty flimsy too, such as those little clips that hold the controller onto the membrane.

If you want something better built than a Model M, you want a Model F, not an M2 which is built to a much lesser standard than either.

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Author Topic: Buying First Buckling Spring Keyboard (Read 18843 times)

woody

westajay