The Phantom - and interest check

[litster]

mtl, what keycaps would you use to accommodate the nipple?

[Cata1yst]

If its a reasonable price im in,

are you going to make the option of letting us bundle in keycaps?

[mtl]

@litster: Not sure yet, but will have to cut away at the keycaps to accommodate the nipple. See zmurf's pic:

[N8N]

any thoughts on using a "quick stem change" plate design as has been kicked around here before?

stole this from a post in another thread

http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=22587&d=1311861100

that would just make this all kinds of awesome all over.

NB: I haven't actually tried this mod; but once the rest of the stuff I've ordered shows up, I may try it when I change the space bar switch on this WASD I'm typing on (for some reason they used a blue switch for the space bar instead of using a similar but stiffer switch like Cherry does) to see if it really works and if it negatively affects switch stability at all.  If I do that before anyone else does I'll be sure to post.

Edit: it's probably waaaaaay too late to suggest this, but have you given any thought to making the PCB such that it can be used on a Filco 104 as well, with a cut line to hack off the unused numpad area for use on a TKL?  that would be even more awesome.

[litster]

+1 for quick stem change plate design!

[bpiphany]

any thoughts on using a "quick stem change" plate design as has been kicked around here before?

stole this from a post in another thread

http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=22587&d=1311861100

that would just make this all kinds of awesome all over.

NB: I haven't actually tried this mod; but once the rest of the stuff I've ordered shows up, I may try it when I change the space bar switch on this WASD I'm typing on (for some reason they used a blue switch for the space bar instead of using a similar but stiffer switch like Cherry does) to see if it really works and if it negatively affects switch stability at all.  If I do that before anyone else does I'll be sure to post.

Edit: it's probably waaaaaay too late to suggest this, but have you given any thought to making the PCB such that it can be used on a Filco 104 as well, with a cut line to hack off the unused numpad area for use on a TKL?  that would be even more awesome.

The first problem with the quick-stem-change-cutouts is that no-one has done it so no-one actually knows how much space would be required (at least that I know of). There is not a whole lot of space left between the holes as it is and the plate needs to have some sort of stability.

The second problem is that it actually increases the risk of pulling the switch apart when pulling keycaps off. This has happened to me more than once and it is usually a rather catastrophic event in the life of a Cherry switch =P

Making the PCB full size increases the price somewhat and most people here just haven't realized the awesomeness of the numpad (why is beyond me...) and would probably just see it as a hassle to have to cut it off. The full size Filco is also constructed somewhat differently than the tenkeyless. It would be possible to combine those functionalities but I don't think it will happen this time around.

[bpiphany]

Thanks, PrinsValium!

The hole should be located such that, after key caps are installed, the hole is centered horizontally between right edge of G & left edge of H, and vertically between bottom edge of G|H and top edge of B. zmurf has some pictures of the keyboard membrane and a hole he drilled, to get an idea. Lowpoly also posted some work-in-progress pictures up here of his Guru keyboard, but I can't seem to find them now.  Maybe zmurf, input nirvana, lowpoly, or ricercar (or someone else) can comment on the specific dimensions? I don't have a TrackPoint stick yet to measure it -- perhaps in a week or two.

Here are a couple pictures for inspiration: 1, 2

I really do think it looks like the hole is not half way between the rows, rather offset some distance into the GH-row.

[litster]

If I want to switch between 1.5 and 1.25 front row setup, is it just a matter of de-soldering and re-soldering switches, or would I need to reprogram the controller as well?  Thanks.

[N8N]

The first problem with the quick-stem-change-cutouts is that no-one has done it so no-one actually knows how much space would be required (at least that I know of). There is not a whole lot of space left between the holes as it is and the plate needs to have some sort of stability.

Looking at the jar-o-parts(tm) that I have sitting here it appears that the latches for the switch top are only about 1/32" or so deep, so slightly more than that should be sufficient.  But, I haven't actually tried it either.  I agree that you wouldn't wamt to make the slots any deeper than absolutely necessary.

The second problem is that it actually increases the risk of pulling the switch apart when pulling keycaps off. This has happened to me more than once and it is usually a rather catastrophic event in the life of a Cherry switch =P

Eh, for the types of people that would appreciate a quick-stem-change plate design, I don't think that that would be a keyboard killer.  Just sayin'

Making the PCB full size increases the price somewhat and most people here just haven't realized the awesomeness of the numpad (why is beyond me...) and would probably just see it as a hassle to have to cut it off. The full size Filco is also constructed somewhat differently than the tenkeyless. It would be possible to combine those functionalities but I don't think it will happen this time around.

I don't have a tenkeyless Filco, so I didn't know that.   I was just ASSuming that they would be similar.  And throwing ideas out there... I know that not every idea can be incorporated into a design, and I don't expect them all to be... but I figured it was worth throwing out there.

[mtl]

And what would the exact size of the hole be?

The hole on the Lenovo USB trackpoint keyboard is 8mm. However, there are 3 other holes for mounting screws.  While it's possible to accommodate them between the key switches, these holes are different depending on the trackpoint unit. There are pictures on this forum of trackpoints with 4 mounting holes, for example. So I'm not sure there's a universal set of holes you can drill through (or route traces around) the PCB for all trackpoint units.  However, drilling the main hole where the trackpoint goes through would be helpful, especially on the mounting plate since that hole is harder for people to make (can get away with fastening mounting screws to the PCB, not going all the way through the switch plate).  The center hole doesn't need to be 8mm.  You can get away with as little as 4mm with the parts I have.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 24511[/ATTACH]

[BiNiaRiS]

Bump to keep this alive. Any new updates? The wait is killing me.

[bpiphany]

Bump to keep this alive. Any new updates? The wait is killing me.

Me too!!

I did some more work on the cutouts for the mounting plate. HaveANiceDay seems to think that if it works with Costar stabilizers everyone will be happy. If they also work almost like they they should with Cherry stabilizers that is a bonus (they stabilized keys might be somewhat tricky to remove). I also added the slots for "easy stem swapping". I didn't have a switch handy when I designed them so I haven't adjusted the measurements yet, I was only guessing from memory. I have a spread sheet that generates the KiCAD modules for the stabilizers and other cutouts. So it's a simple thing to adjust them. I'm attaching a dxf-drawing of the ANSI plate. It should be AutoCAD compatible and there is a free program called QCAD that will open it as well.

I would still need more a more accurate description of where the hole for the track point goes. It is not centered between the rows in the pictures I have seen.
Edit: And by the way. Don't expect to fit anything underneath the pcb in a Filco case. There is very little room there...

I think HaveANiceDay have been on vacation, but he should be back..

[laden3]

Bump.

[hashbaz]

Mark me down in the interested column too.

[bpiphany]

Any way to do a stuffing option in case you'd prefer to use Filco compatible keys?  Like the KBCs for example?  Should be just a matter of a few extra pads and mounting holes.  Extra traces might be a PITA though.

I'm more interested in just getting a Teensy stuffable PCB myself.

And I'm not so sure about this applying to Cherry Corps.  The Filco/Leopold main cluster to nav cluster is smaller than IBMs.

Somebody measure their PLU-87.
(Attachment Link) 26081[/ATTACH]

The PCB will be Filco "compatible" in the sense that there will be switch locations in the exact same locations as on the Filco. So a pure Teensy upgrade would be possible using the Filco original mounting plate.

Having switch locations "almost" in the same locations as on the Filco is somewhat troublesome, a little more off is doable, but that would mean a larger PCB, and that would probably not fit the Filco case. So that is a no go.

Mounting holes are really only a problem if they interfere with the controller. Cut traces are not that hard to replace with jumpers. Judging from how confident people around here seem to be about their soldering skills I doubt they would be able to not mess the hole drilling up badly though.

So using the PCB with something else than a Filco tenkeyless case will only be possible if it has the exact same physical layout. And it might require some tweaking still. The PLU looks sort of promising though.

If HaveANiceDay doesn't return to manage this thing though, there will be no PCBs at all.

[litster]

Where has HaveANiceDay gone?  I see he was last active on GH this morning.

[RiGS]

At least he didn't run with the group buy money like weipim did.

[sordna]

At least he didn't run with the group buy money like weipim did.

The pink PLU group buy? Weird. I had a good experience buying a Poker from him in July, and his 26 reviews are all very good. Maybe something happened to him?

[RiGS]

I think they all took the bait.

[laden3]

If HaveANiceDay doesn't return to manage this thing though, there will be no PCBs at all.

HaveABadDay and die in great remorse... jk...

I believe there are a lot of lurkers who are interested in this project, please keep it alive...

[BiNiaRiS]

If HaveANiceDay doesn't return to manage this thing though, there will be no PCBs at all.

What all was he in charge of? I would be willing to help get this rolling distribution-wise, etc.

[litster]

BiNiaRiS to the rescue!   Yes!

[Oqsy]

Cool project. Plans for full nkro over usb? (yes, its possible. At least 2 ghers are doing it with teensy / teensy++). I wish I'd hung on to that filco TKL now, i could have swapped in clears and had a super *****in' board!

[bpiphany]

It was HaveANiceDay's idea and I still consider it his project. I am going to wait longer than this before I give the CAD files out to anyone else.

I think the problem at hand right now is to find someone to do the plates. So if anyone has suggestions they are welcome. Water cutting from DXF-design files is what I have done previously. I think that any serious machining company should be able to handle DXF-files.

The cherry data sheet specifies 0.012" radii when cutting. The company I used said their thinnest jets give 0.016" radii, which also worked fine.

[bpiphany]

Cool project. Plans for full nkro over usb? (yes, its possible. At least 2 ghers are doing it with teensy / teensy++). I wish I'd hung on to that filco TKL now, i could have swapped in clears and had a super *****in' board!

The Teensy will be loadable with any pre-written code from anyone, or your own. So yes, but probably there will be no such code provided by me or HaveANiceDay.

[sordna]

6KRO is fine. 18 (leopolds) is almost overkill, I guess useful in the rare occasion when 2 players share the same keyboard and both of them will need to push 9 keys each at the same time. HIGHLY UNLIKELY.

Is full NKRO worth the trouble? Who will use more than 18 fingers on a keyboard simultaneously? One reason I chose a Poker over a Noppoo, is the silly NKRO making the Noppoo finicky with linux and incompatible with macs.

[RiGS]

Sure, Leopold has the best controller out there.

[Oqsy]

Soarer has the best controller out there.

[Soarer]

6KRO is fine. 18 (leopolds) is almost overkill, I guess useful in the rare occasion when 2 players share the same keyboard and both of them will need to push 9 keys each at the same time. HIGHLY UNLIKELY.

Is full NKRO worth the trouble? Who will use more than 18 fingers on a keyboard simultaneously? One reason I chose a Poker over a Noppoo, is the silly NKRO making the Noppoo finicky with linux and incompatible with macs.

What it is that makes the noppoo incompatible, I don't know, but it isn't the NKRO as such. We've examined some of the >6KRO implementations and found a variety of issues - each implementation seems to have a different one somehow!

From experience, I've found that once you go for more than 6KRO, making it full NKRO is more compatible, neater, and easier to implement.

Whether you need or want >6KRO is another matter entirely, and to each his own :-)

Soarer has the best controller out there.

It's a converter, but thanks! (A controller version will happen at some point, but I don't know when).

[N8N]

What I've *heard* is that the Noppoo actually reports to the PC as several different keyboard controllers, each with 6KRO.

What I've *seen* is that on Ubuntu, the caps lock LED doesn't work.  My suspicion is that the LED is on a different "controller" than the caps lock key itself.  This seems to be an actual problem w/ Ubuntu, as when I press the caps lock key on the laptop keyboard, the LED on the external keyboard doesn't light up (true for all I've tried - Cherry, Filco, or WASD.)  I did report this to Launchpad and it was marked confirmed, but for some reason I've been unable to log in to Launchpad to see whatever happened to it.

Edit: I assume that this shouldn't be an overly difficult fix for the coders as the panel applet that gives status of the various keys (caps lock, num lock, scroll lock) works correctly.  I installed it on the recommendation of someone here and it corrected an issue that I'd had with my laptop, namely, no status lights on the keyboard (whiskey tango foxtrot?  Stupid Dell.)

[litster]

His profile shows he was just online on gh an hour ago.

[Soarer]

Your suspicion about the caps lock sounds spot on - I had that at one point, and moving the LEDs to the same endpoint as the keys fixed it.

The other thing that makes life easy for >6KRO is using Full Speed USB - most of these flaky ones insist on sticking with Low Speed to save a few cents

[sordna]

Sure, Leopold has the best controller out there.

 

Soarer has the best controller out there.

Kinesis has the best controller out there, bar none.

[RiGS]

The rapoo is only 2kro. I have experienced problems with 6kro as well. It is just not enough, and I hate the idea of PS2.
That Leopold 17KRO over USB uber alles.

[sordna]

The $40 Rapoo has the best controller out there, bar none.

Fully HW programmable without any custom stinking drivers.

Needs windblows software to remap it though. The Kinesis is programmable from the keyboard itself, without any software. You can remap it even while sitting in the BIOS screen :-)

I do congratulate Rapoo though, I wish more folks add this feature, instead of gold plated connectors or camo colors.

[Oqsy]

Sorry Soarer, converter that acts like a controller in many ways.

[woody]

This is why the Filco Red Limited Edition I'm typing on spews out so many posts.

Just imagine what an USB 3.0 keyboard could do.

[Soarer]

I believe the Black Widow just auto sets it at 1000Hz.

I think, though am not certain, that the Gen2 Filcos may be 1000Hz.  This is why the Filco Red Limited Edition I'm typing on spews out so many posts.

I just got round to looking into this report rate thing a bit more - it looks like it is set by the keyboard, and is in milliseconds. Whether the setting can be overridden (by the OS or a util) later, I don't know.

There's a byte in the endpoint descriptor which sets the "Interval for polling endpoint for data transfers". In the PJRC keyboard sample code, it's set to 1mS (and I haven't changed it from that in my code, or even thought much about it before). In the appendix of the HID spec which describes an example keyboard configuration (the classic 'boot mode'), it shows 10mS. I suspect many standard 6KRO keyboards use this 10mS (100Hz) value. The Blue Cube does, for example.

Note that this doesn't mean a report is sent every time the device is polled, it merely gives it the opportunity to send a report.

Presumably this accounts for the claims of "data transfer to maximum" etc!

[Soarer]

What it is that makes the noppoo incompatible, I don't know, but it isn't the NKRO as such. We've examined some of the >6KRO implementations and found a variety of issues - each implementation seems to have a different one somehow!

What I've *heard* is that the Noppoo actually reports to the PC as several different keyboard controllers, each with 6KRO.

The other thing that makes life easy for >6KRO is using Full Speed USB - most of these flaky ones insist on sticking with Low Speed to save a few cents

Thanks to polpo, we have had the Noppoo Choc Mini report descriptors since January!

To summarise them: it's a Low Speed device, with two endpoints, each with 8 byte reports. They aren't 6KRO reports, that wouldn't be enough :-) They are mainly bitfields (one bit per key), with the keys divided fairly evenly between the two reports.

The caps lock led is on the first report, and the caps lock key is on the second.

Also, its report interval is 10mS (in other words the polling rate is 100Hz), although that's not relevant to compatibility.

[BiNiaRiS]

HaveANiceDay!!!! Where are you?

[litster]

If HaveANiceDay doesn't come back, I hope we can still move forward with this project.  I am defiinitely in for 2, or 3.

[Glockateer]

I'm interested in something like this, too.

[iohcuyk]

Me too
i am interested

[laden3]

HaveANiceDay!!!! Where are you?

His mother burned all his keyboards and he is still weeping, refusing to give us a reasonable explanation.

[bpiphany]

HaveANiceDay!!!! Where are you?

I have sent him an email asking what's up, and if he wants me/us to carry on with this without him in a managing position.

I could order the PCBs and have them sent to me, distributing boards to Europe from me, and sending a package of all US boards to someone across the pond. They would be manufactured by pcbwing in China and they didn't seem to bother to write a correct value last time. So Swedish sales tax will probably not apply anyhow.

The mounting plates on the other hand, I don't know where to have them produced. I could do it locally here, but then there will be sales tax and I don't know how to and/or have the time to arrange with having it withdrawn on international transfers. If anyone knows of good non-european shops to do the water cutting, speak up!

[laden3]

bump

[BiNiaRiS]

I have sent him an email asking what's up, and if he wants me/us to carry on with this without him in a managing position.

I could order the PCBs and have them sent to me, distributing boards to Europe from me, and sending a package of all US boards to someone across the pond. They would be manufactured by pcbwing in China and they didn't seem to bother to write a correct value last time. So Swedish sales tax will probably not apply anyhow.

The mounting plates on the other hand, I don't know where to have them produced. I could do it locally here, but then there will be sales tax and I don't know how to and/or have the time to arrange with having it withdrawn on international transfers. If anyone knows of good non-european shops to do the water cutting, speak up!

I will do some research this week on plate cutting. I literally know nothing about it though.

I can do us distro on the PCBs.

Sent from my EVO

[BiNiaRiS]

I just got an initial quote from a local water cutting place. These plates have a lot of cutting to them so stainless steel is expensive (takes much long to cut it all). Aluminum plates are the most reasonable.

I also talked with a local company that does anodizing. They offer black, gold, red, and blue but the guy I needed to talk to was out of the office so I'll call him tomorrow.

Not sure where everyone stands on anodizing, but I think adding color to the plate will give it a much better look. I would be happy with any of the colors except gold. Apparently blue and red are 40% more expensive than the other colors though so we will have to see.

[litster]

Thanks BiNiaRiS for taking on this!  $15 seems very reasonable.  Even Stainless steel for $40 isn't too bad for the extra heft.  Would love to know the price for red and blue anoidizing.

[kaiserreich]

Any ideas how much the PCBs would cost?