Sooo dissapoint

[The Solutor]

If you seriously compare MX browns with RD/scissors,

 
Some RD and scissor boards aren't just better than a brown switch are hugely better, bad for you if you haven't tried one.

then typing is not the primary objective you seek in a keyboard

:pound:

What is not my main purpose is to blindly buy what some talibans are saying, for me a good keyboard is a good keyboard whatever is the technology under the hood, but looks like that only fanboys are well accepted by people like you.

[Arcanius]

If you want a good RD, go for it. The majority of switches here are ones that you don't have to bottom out on to get actuation, or ones where the tactile bump actually coincides with the actuation. That's the major advantage of mechanical switches, you should know this. Go use an RD board or scissor board, but those are heavier than most cherry boards, and the effort on RDs is higher.
If you want to make remarks about how your opinion isn't Ghandi's, go to the off-topic board, not here where people are looking for help. It's not hard to say things that are unrelated and insulting, it seems to be hard for you to give advice without also insulting though. Everywhere you post, you're against everybody else's choices, which is totally alright, but don't go along flaming mechanicals on what is a mechanical keyboard forum, because nobody will care or listen. You live in Italy, correct? Of course the price will seem steep by Italian standards, hey, I'm Romanian, and any Romanian I tell I bought a $120 keyboard will think I'm crazy, but I can afford it. The same with Topre people. If they like it, and have the money, why is it my (or yours, because you're the one going on about how mechanicals are overpiced) business if they bought it and spent $400?

[The Solutor]

Do you have chamomile in Romania ?

You should try it.

but don't go along flaming mechanicals on what is a mechanical keyboard forum

The only one that are flaming here are you, and no this is not a mechanical keyboard forum, at least this is what is written on the forum's title.

[Arcanius]

I live in Canada, thanks.
Okay, not only mechanicals, but mostly. How many threads do you see about Rubber Domes? How many times have you seen a rubber dome board sell as quickly as a mechanical in the classifieds.

I'm not flaming, I haven't insulted you once this whole thread. I've stated my opinion, as opposed to you calling us talibans, telling us the word of the day is "brain," suggesting I try chamomile. That's in a few of yours. Disagreeing is fine, being rude is another.

[The Solutor]

I live in Canada, thanks.
How many times have you seen a rubber dome board sell as quickly as a mechanical in the classifieds.

And this means what ?

Btw we aren't discussing about mechanicals here we are discussing about MX browns, do you remember ?

So whats the point in shifting the discussion to a stupid mechanical vs ROW ?

I haven't insulted you once this whole thread.

Flaming doesn't imply insulting

I've stated my opinion, as opposed to you calling us talibans

Us ? :twitch:

I call talibans the talibans, the integralists, call them whatever you like. If you feel you are part of that category...

telling us the word of the day is "brain," suggesting I try chamomile.

Never heard anything about irony, jokes and so on ?

I replied to Ripster that at least (sometime) has a bit of sense of humor, where's the problem ? and why you feel involved ?

[woody]

Some RD and scissor boards aren't just better than a brown switch are hugely better, bad for you if you haven't tried one.

When RDs start actuating halfway on travel we can also start talking about proper tactility. Until then you're just a raving lunatic.
And, yes, MX brown is good all-around switch.

[The Solutor]

When RDs start actuating halfway on travel we can also start talking about proper tactility.

What has to do the tactility with the actuation point ?

A brown switch has crap tactility and actuates halfway, an Olivetti board has an awesome tactility and actuates at the bottom, an XM switch has a decent tactility and actuates at the beginning.....


And btw the actuation point placed halfway is more a side effect than a pro, call it with a neutral "feature" if you want, but surely is not an advantage.

Do you remember where is the actuation point on the mechanical typewriters ?

[N8N]

And btw the actuation point placed halfway is more a side effect than a pro, call it with a neutral "feature" if you want, but surely is not an advantage.

At least for me personally, that is a huge advantage and the main appeal of the mechanical-switch keyboards.  It's why I fondly remember using Model M's back in the day; why I searched a couple out and used them at home, and why I eventually found my way to this forum, in an attempt to find an open-office-friendly keyboard that would maintain the features that I found so appealing about the M but without the clacketiness.

My theory is that I started to develop fatigue in my hands after typing on a RD keyboard all day due to having to bottom out the keys to get them to register.  Since I've been typing on Cherry switch based boards, my hands feel much better.  I attribute that to the actuation point not being at the bottom of the travel, and to a lesser extent the tactile point roughly corresponding to the actuation point.

Now that's just for me personally, but for me, a board can be as tactile and wonderful feeling as it can get, but if I bottom out when typing, I don't like it.  It's why I don't like RDs - because I have to bottom out - and it's also why I don't like Alps - because I may not have to bottom out, but I end up doing it anyway, because the force required to actuate the switch is just about the same force that will send the key to the bottom.

And no, I'm not a HUGE fan of browns, although I think that if I gave myself enough adjustment period, I could get used to the ones on the Noppoo Choc Pro.  For reasons I can't explain, they're the most tactile browns I've typed on (several used Cherry boards and a Filco being my other experiences with them.)  I do like the clears, probably because I've become used to a heavier switch.  I also like blues and ergo clears because they feel more tactile to me than browns, although the noise of the blues becomes a little annoying after a while.

[The Solutor]

At least for me personally, that is a huge advantage and the main appeal of the mechanical-switch keyboards.

This is your respectable opinion. and perhaps I haven't told that I don't agree with this preference. What I said is that isn't written anywhere that bottoming out is bad, is matter of personal preferences and personal habits.

You started with model M and you feel natural the halfway activation, I've started with the Ti99, ZX spectrum, QL, Envision, and the Olivetti boards and all of them actuate at the bottom.

Ther's no right or wrong behavior here, there's a personal preference, that's the point.

[Chobopants]

This is your respectable opinion. and perhaps I haven't told that I don't agree with this preference. What I said is that isn't written anywhere that bottoming out is bad, is matter of personal preferences and personal habits.

You started with model M and you feel natural the halfway activation, I've started with the Ti99, ZX spectrum, QL, Envision, and the Olivetti boards and all of them actuate at the bottom.

Ther's no right or wrong behavior here, there's a personal preference, that's the point.

Whereas you started with:

Funnily enough browns are suggested by everyone to the newbies, and are at the same time the worst kind of cherry switches, likely the worst kind of any mechanical keyboard.

And my preference is that cherry browns are the perfect middle of the road switch. Hell, it's what I use 90% of the time at home here and I have a perfectly good Realforce sitting right next to me (which I also love but for totally different reasons).

You should really go through the thread and read what you say. On one hand you make basically flame everyone and then you just say "oh it's all preference who cares." Seriously, I fear you're bipolar or something.

[jpc]

Cherry browns are pretty great! They're cheaper than (also great) topres. They're smoother than most ALPS. They won't make your fingers fall off like 80g buckling springs.

Browns have just enough tactility to orient you, not too much. They work well if you touch type with small muscle movements. If you hunt and peck with your triceps, you'll bottom out on browns. That's not the switches' fault.

EDIT. My complaint about browns is that Cherry Corp. builds them into very few Cherry-branded keyboards. What's that about?

[The Solutor]

And my preference is that cherry browns are the perfect middle of the road switch.

Middle of the road are the ergo clears

[The Solutor]

Browns have just enough tactility to orient you, not too much. They work well if you touch type with small muscle movements. If you hunt and peck with your triceps, you'll bottom out on browns. That's not the switches' fault.

Is technology that must serve the humans, not viceversa.

If you have to force yourself to type in an unnatural way that technology is just wrong.

[Arcanius]

That implies that all humans are alike and absolute, with no flexibility. This is why we have preferences. I like lighter switches, my next door neighbor, Bob, doesn't. But I can and will type on heavy switches because my body WILL adapt to it.

[kwantz]

well update, as the days go on with this keepboard i am starting to like it more and more, I am naturally starting to type less hard.  Still bottoming out but no where near as bad as I was at first. I say im like 90% there though as compared to typing on my island style mech.  I give her another week and hopefully Iw ill be typing a lot better on this leopold than on my laptop. If I were to replace the keys on my stock leopold, would it make the bottoming out less noticeable? or just does it make it a deeper thud or clack???

[Magna224]

You should try to pick up some cheap ALPS board somewhere just to try it. You could be missing out on your favorite switch if you never try.

[Arcanius]

Different keycpas will change the pitch more than the volume. For volume reduction, o-rings or soft-landing pads would be best!
Glad to hear you're adjusting!

[Finax]

I had the same issue. When I got my Browns I wasn't blown away like I thought I would be. They were louder than I thought and dull. I don't mind the sound so I replaced it with Blues. I'm much happier with these switches.

The noise isn't nearly as loud as some would say. I got used to not bottoming out quickly on the blues because of the click.

Also, my keyboard did ring/ping. That sucked.

[jpc]

Browns have just enough tactility to orient you, not too much. They work well if you touch type with small muscle movements. If you hunt and peck with your triceps, you'll bottom out on browns. That's not the switches' fault.

Is technology that must serve the humans, not viceversa.

If you have to force yourself to type in an unnatural way that technology is just wrong.

Hunt and peck is bad for you. It's how I learned to type, with no instruction, at age 5. It's inherently high impact, regardless of switch, it'll make your hands fall off after a few decades. There are better ways.

Colemak layout, touch typing, ergo form factor, and light switches -- this is how I'm beating RSI, with low impact typing. Cherry browns work great here.

[The Solutor]

Hunt and peck is bad for you. It's how I learned to type, with no instruction, at age 5. It's inherently high impact, regardless of switch, it'll make your hands fall off after a few decades. There are better ways.

There's always a better way, in any human activity, but given the limited resource and time everyone choose his priorities.

I learned to type when I was 6 year old, and I learned on a mechanical typewriter, so I like a good tactility and I'm more used to the activation at bottom, although I don't dislike the activation halfway and i like a lot the activation on top like on the XM switches.

Colemak layout, touch typing, ergo form factor, and light switches -- this is how I'm beating RSI, with low impact typing. Cherry browns work great here.

Have you tried blues, ergo clears or reds ? Are you comparing the brown switches with other kind of cherry switches or it's meant as  generic comparison between mechanical and rubber dome ?

[RiGS]

Why are you keep recommending ergo clears. Half of the geekhackers who tried that mod complains about sticking switches. I would never recommend a mod with such a high failure rate...

[keyboardlover]

Half? I recall like 2 complaints about that. I've experienced it. It's sporadic and the switches typically right themselves in a second.

[RiGS]

I read dozens of complaints about that. Maybe you just decided to ignore them because you are a fanboy.

[redpill]

Half? I recall like 2 complaints about that. I've experienced it. It's sporadic and the switches typically right themselves in a second.

You should start a custom switch service KL, where people ship you their board, you desolder all the switches, replace the springs, and resolder them again before sending it back.  For reasonable compensation, of course.

[The Solutor]

Why are you keep recommending ergo clears.

Because is the best cherry MX switch.

Simple as that.

[RiGS]

Man up. Cherry black is the best.
Of course the switch poll indicates otherwise.

[RiGS]

Also If you quote someone do it right!

Why are you keep recommending ergo clears. Half of the geekhackers who tried that mod complains about sticking switches. I would never recommend a mod with such a high failure rate...

[The Solutor]

Man up. Cherry black is the best.
Of course the switch poll indicates otherwise.

If the pols have to indicate something right we will never had  Bush,  Berlusconi, Hitler or Mussolini.

Also If you quote someone do it right!

I think is more a placebo effect than a real problem, I don't have any sticking switches aside of a couple of defective ones quickly replaced before star to use the keyboard.

[redpill]

Man up. Cherry black is the best.
Of course the switch poll indicates otherwise.

Most of the people in the switch polls probably vote for what they have regardless of whether they've tried any other switches or not.  But I find cherry blacks too stiff personally.  And (plate mounted) browns feel too light.  I haven't tried blues yet but want to.  If only they made more White Duckys!

[jpc]

There's always a better way, in any human activity, but given the limited resource and time everyone choose his priorities.

Have you tried blues, ergo clears or reds ? Are you comparing the brown switches with other kind of cherry switches or it's meant as  generic comparison between mechanical and rubber dome ?

Yes, everyone chooses their priorities. Pain was threatening my career, so I learned to type a better way.

I've tried various ALPS, buckling springs, cherry browns, and variable topres. Browns and topres are the most comfortable among those, I like the actuation force below 50g and the subtle tactility.

Reds and blues must be nice too, but I've not tried them.

[woody]

Reds and blues must be nice too, but I've not tried them.

Be sure to give blues a try, even just for the curiosity. I know where you come from, so it's more than a general advice. Even if the effect on your RSI is unknown, you will love the tactility.

[Chobopants]

If you like Browns you might love Reds! For RSI gentleness especially they do a great job. The slight tactility of Browns edge them out for gaming for me but for pure typing I love Reds very much!

Blues are...interesting. I like em...no plans on selling the board (in fact I just ordered new keys for it), but that board gets the least amount of use for me. Dunno. They're good, though, and I can see how people can love them.

[nhwhaup]

Reds and blues must be nice too, but I've not tried them.

I'm glad you like the Realforce. If you get a chance, try the reds. They are the only switch I can type on non-stop with no hand fatigue or pain.

[kohtachi]

I got the filco 45 gram browns and found that my fingers started to hurt after long game play. But, on the topre 55 gram my fingers did not hurt. Maybe I'm bottoming out on the filco browns. And the tactical feel? hardly felt it. Waiting on the leopod 45gram reds, hoping that would feel better.

[redpill]

I got the filco 45 gram browns and found that my fingers started to hurt after long game play. But, on the topre 55 gram my fingers did not hurt. Maybe I'm bottoming out on the filco browns. And the tactical feel? hardly felt it. Waiting on the leopod 45gram reds, hoping that would feel better.

I think you are correct.  Your fatigue on the browns likely comes from bottoming out.  On the Topre you have this luscious cup rubber underneath that makes for a soft landing even if you do bottom out.

[keyboardlover]

I read dozens of complaints about that. Maybe you just decided to ignore them because you are a fanboy.

Nope. Never saw them.

Dozens? Prove it.

[ashort]

Funnily enough browns are suggested by everyone to the newbies, and are at the same time the worst kind of cherry switches, likely the worst kind of any mechanical keyboard.

I'm typing this on brown Cherry switches so, of course, I don't understand. Why brown cherries?  I'd think, if you were going after cherry as the "worst", you go with either red or black.  Brown makes no sense at all.  Very light and tactile and I don't think I type faster on anything else I've touched, but just maybe Alps.

[sordna]

Even though I'm coming from a completely different point of view than the Solutor (who doesn't like linear switches) I too found browns the worst Cherry MX switch for my taste. I like the smoothness of reds and black switches, I appreciate the tactility of blues, but browns??? They are just gritty to me. Not tactile enough to tell if you actuated them or not when you type fast, and an unpleasant feeling of friction when you type slow. I've used browns for years and never got to like them... the Kinesis Advantage with reds was a phenomenal improvement for me over the regular one with browns.

[HaiiYaa]

The soluter as we know him. He doesn't know the meaning of the word preference

[Lanx]

and i'm the opposite of sordna, i like the most tactile available so that's clears, and i turn off the speaker on the kinesis (since we both use the kinesis now, i view it as two opposing ends).

[sordna]

and i'm the opposite of sordna, i like the most tactile available so that's clears, and i turn off the speaker on the kinesis (since we both use the kinesis now, i view it as two opposing ends).

Actually, I like tactile switches (as well as linears), I like mx blues and buckling springs... it's the browns I don't like.

[ashort]

That's good input peoples!  I didn't realize there was a contingent out there who actually disliked brown switches.  Obviously I don't understand why you don't like them, because I love them!  

Thank you!

[Urglifast]

That's good input peoples!  I didn't realize there was a contingent out there who actually disliked brown switches.  Obviously I don't understand why you don't like them, because I love them!  

Thank you!

seconded.  i type on Blues at work and i'm actually growing to dislike them more and more.  my keyboard with browns feels more natural to me.

[enoy21]

But it if pings you think it's just a breaking in period right ?  


Ironically my Wyse 60 pings like a mofo and it's like 20 yrs of broken in.

[ashort]

wouldn't know.  The only keyboard I've had that I've observed a ping-like-effect in was my Matias Tactile Pro.  And I may be assuming ping because it just makes so MUCH racket.

[Lethal Squirrel]

Like many have said, just give it a while. maybe a week or two. You will cringe when you go back to your laptop keyboard

[Lanx]

Actually, I like tactile switches (as well as linears), I like mx blues and buckling springs... it's the browns I don't like.

i was trying to make a cool point! (but who doesn't love BS, they are my fav switches too).

[Magna224]

Browns aren't bad by any means they are just no fun. =P
To me mechanical has to have that sharp click and that snappy feel you get from clicky ALPS/MX Blue and such.

[nhwhaup]

Yes, everyone chooses their priorities. Pain was threatening my career, so I learned to type a better way.

I've tried various ALPS, buckling springs, cherry browns, and variable topres. Browns and topres are the most comfortable among those, I like the actuation force below 50g and the subtle tactility.

Reds and blues must be nice too, but I've not tried them.

jpc - I'm the one that you purchased the variable Realforce from.  I'm glad to hear you like it.  Due to your RSI, I highly recommend you try the MX reds.  I like a light switch and I really feel they are the best out there for me.  I also will tend to have some wrist pain when typing a lot all day and if I'm also working into the evening.  The reds work the best for me overall.  I like the quiet typing and if you really want complete silence, you can use the sound dampening pads. The touch is really so light and I find myself barely touching the keys and just gliding over them.  I have both both the full sized Filco and Tenkeyless and also the Poker with reds.  I like the Poker without any sound dampening as the keys against the plastic plate is really a nice sound/feel in itself when I do bottom out.

Seriously you should try the reds when you get a chance - I think you will really like them and they definitely won't play into any RSI issues.

[duncan]

Browns aren't bad by any means they are just no fun.

+1

Browns are trying to be the medium choice that offends no-one and in the process fail to have any strong features so they fail to have a strong character to force a love it / hate it reaction.

The fun starts when you start to make choices that have strong features (very light /  very heavy / very loud / whatever) and in that lack of compromise comes true character and provides something to react to and/or against.