How many times as Paypal screw you over as a seller?

[BiNiaRiS]

I sent an invoice to a guy in new york last week for $800. He paid me 6 days ago, and i told him I was on vacation and that I would be back 4 days later. It's now 2 days from then. He emailed me asking if it had shipped a few hours ago and then 30min later filed a dispute in paypal saying he was really worried that I'm not going to ship his stuff...the stuff that was sitting on my desk, packaged up, ready to be dropped off.

And of course, Paypal, since they always side with the buyer, took that $800 from out of my account until this dispute is finished. I told the guy I won't be sending him **** until he closed the dispute.

Why the hell does Paypal allow a dispute to be filed so quickly after a purchase? Every year I do business with this fraudulent company, it makes me more aware of how ridiculous they are. Masquerading as a bank without having to follow any of the rules that banks have to follow.

[EverythingIBM]

I never had any issues with paypal. I only use it for:
A) redirecting cash from selling albums
B) buying stuff on ebay

I don't use it to sell items to people though. People are hard to deal with.

So really, when issues arise with paypal, it's because of people, not the service itself. Sort of like Windows. When I hear people complain about Windows, it's the user's fault.

[litster]

You can't send the goods now that the money is removed from your account.  That really is the only thing you can do.  Effectively, the deal is off.  The bad thing is there might be a "record" on you with paypal.  That sucks.

[Oqsy]

Re: thread title.

Once too many. They kept limiting my account and requiring I link a bank account. The money there (my balance) was in limbo until I did. I said **** off and will never use it again. I've had some difficulties as a result, but so far ppl willing to use Amazon payments have made it easier on me.

I appreciate those of you that have been willing to do so, or take a money order or personal check.

I realize that most of you prefer and default to PayPal for your own reasons. Just be careful, they're playing games with the definition of "bank", and have no hesitation about claiming your balance as theirs.

See sig.

[sordna]

What are the pros/cons of Amazon payments compared to Paypal?

[keyboardlover]

What are the pros/cons of Amazon payments compared to Paypal?

I would say one of the big ones is that the don't f**k you over (that I know of).

Don't get me started on PayPal. I've been using it for like 12 years now and it's only gotten worse.

Here's the latest bull**** they're putting me through:

From now on, money you receive will be temporarily held in a pending balance. To learn more, please read our Payment Holds policy.

When some sellers receive payments, we may hold the money in a pending balance for up to 21 days to help make sure that there are funds in the seller's account to cover potential refunds or claims. The funds may be released early if PayPal determines that the transaction has been fulfilled and customers are satisfied.

While funds are pending, the money belongs to you but isn't available to spend or withdraw.

If payments on your account are held, we'll notify you. PayPal will re-evaluate your account every 35 days and decide whether or not to continue holding payments. If we decide to stop holding future payments, we'll contact you.

[Input Nirvana]

Seems to be a lot of strings attached for what should be a simple money transfer. I'd rather receive another form of payment (money order, cashiers check) that doesn't cost so much. I feel paying $7 for a $200 transfer of money is WAY too much.

[Lanx]

isn't paypal not a creditor, not a bank, so like no laws really affect them?

[arplod]

0 times.

I don't do dumb things, and I communicate fully.

[BiNiaRiS]

0 times.

I don't do dumb things, and I communicate fully.

Just trying to be an ******* or something?

I did both of those and Paypal still screwed me.

I talked with a lady in disputes yesterday and she confirmed that any buyer CAN file a dispute immediately after purchase. Why the hell is that allowed? And once it's disputed, even for bad reasons, your money is put on hold.

I did what paypal asked me to...send with signature confirmation since the purchase was large. USPS attempted to deliver, but no one was home. My money is now on hold because my buyer doesn't have time to go to the post office. Why the hell is my money be held ransom because of that ****?

[Daniel Beaver]

I haven't been screwed by sellers or buyers yet, but Paypal constantly yanks my chain. I've had the account locked on multiple occasions for various arbitrary reasons, only to have those locks lifted a couple days later with no explanation given. I hate paypal, but I continue to use it because it is the defacto standard of online payments.

[redpill]

Just trying to be an ******* or something?

I did both of those and Paypal still screwed me.

I talked with a lady in disputes yesterday and she confirmed that any buyer CAN file a dispute immediately after purchase. Why the hell is that allowed? And once it's disputed, even for bad reasons, your money is put on hold.

I did what paypal asked me to...send with signature confirmation since the purchase was large. USPS attempted to deliver, but no one was home. My money is now on hold because my buyer doesn't have time to go to the post office. Why the hell is my money be held ransom because of that ****?

Keep in mind PayPal has to protect itself as well.  Fraud on eBay and the internet at large is rampant.  You always have the option of arranging alternative payment, but the reason PayPal has survived and become a dominant online payment company is that they are very cautious about transaction disputes so that buyers continue to feel comfortable using them.

[Rafen]

Finally signed up for a pay pal account and after I do, I see this thread. Great. I hope this crap doesn't happen to me because I will be very angry. :mad2:

[EverythingIBM]

Well I just opened a dispute with a seller.
Kind of ironic after this thread came up. Never had issues with sellers before.

This guy never responded to my message, or even SHIPPED my item yet! It's been over two weeks now. I hope opening a dispute will get his attention.

[BiNiaRiS]

Keep in mind PayPal has to protect itself as well.  Fraud on eBay and the internet at large is rampant.  You always have the option of arranging alternative payment, but the reason PayPal has survived and become a dominant online payment company is that they are very cautious about transaction disputes so that buyers continue to feel comfortable using them.

And in the US it's essentially a monopoly at this point. So is eBay...and eBay owns Paypal. And you for sure said it...they protect the buyer. I rarely if ever hear of anyone complaining about Paypal as a buyer. The sellers take all the heat. Paypal essentially bends the sellers over backwards.
 

Well I just opened a dispute with a seller.
Kind of ironic after this thread came up. Never had issues with sellers before.

This guy never responded to my message, or even SHIPPED my item yet! It's been over two weeks now. I hope opening a dispute will get his attention.

That is beyond reasonable. 2 weeks with no communication and no delivery deserves a dispute. I started this thread because I had been in contact with my buyer and it had been less than 6 days after payment when he disputed me.

[grasshopper]

isn't paypal not a creditor, not a bank, so like no laws really affect them?

I don't know about the US, but in Europe Paypal is regulated in the same way as any other bank. If you have a dispute with them then you have the right to go to an independent ombusman and Paypal has to pay the costs even if the ombudsman finds in their favour.

[Quarzac]

I haven't really been screwed over, at least I hope not, but I just got a refund on a keyboard that I bought because the seller thankfully checked if it was in full working order before he shipped it, and it wasn't, and paypal is "holding the money" for some reason. So basically my $80 are in paypal limbo, I guess, because they didn't include it in my pending balance, which is about $80 from a phone I sold on eBay. I'd really like to know exactly where this money is, but hopefully it'll show up.

EDIT: I called paypal, and apparently when you do an instant transaction, it's instant because paypal forwards money immediately while the bank takes 3 or so days to get it to the account. When the refund is issued immediately, the bank's sent money has to catch up to your account, so paypal holds the money being sent back, and will reissue it to your account once the bank's money has reached it. This sucks, because it means that the majority of my money I have to spend online is currently tied up in paypal holding limbo.

[BiNiaRiS]

Oh how I wish that were true.

(of course, my comments apply more to obvious seller-fault issues - a perceived delay in shipping when explained up front is no logical reason for a dispute as long as there is communication about status available and the ability to opt out at the buyer's discretion)

Yeah...my point was that I was in communication with the buyer and it came down to him be super impatient.

[litster]

I hope you are able to resolve this with the buyer and paypal.

[QualityMechKeyboards]

Paypal definately doesn't care about the seller. I sold an item and they didn't pay after 10 days and didn't respond to PM's so I filed a dispute. What does paypal do? Give the buyer 30 days to respond after which you can submit a request to paypal customer service which they may or may not rule in your favor. Meanwhile you have no idea whether you will be paid and can't relist the item in case you are. After about 5 more days the buyer paid finally, but more importantly I learned not to trust paypal as a seller.

[Lanx]

i think for paypal, it's easier to make sure you have a good rep with buyers, rather than sellers, cuz if there's 1 seller for every 10 buyers, it's better on a PR perspective to just keep buyers happy and tell the sellers to live with it, i'm not explaining this properly in the morning...

[QualityMechKeyboards]

Yes, plus the fact that if they attract the buyers, the sellers have no choice but to use them, since supply has to meet demand not the other way around. It doesn't matter how many sellers want to sell with paypal if nobody is buying with it, its all about the buyers.

Kind of makes me want to set up my own online brokerage firm, sell it to google, make millions and put paypal out of business.

[keyboardlover]

^ I'm willing to bet you're a buyer MUCH more often than a seller.

[keyboardlover]

I've never seen you sell something on GeekHack.

[iMav]

I've never had issues with PayPal.  I appreciate their bias towards the buyer, as I've filed disputes as a buyer several times (received my money back in less the a week...always due to non-receipt of purchased items).

[fohat.digs]

I have bought and sold hundreds of items on ebay for almost a decade using 3 different accounts.

My experience is that ebay/paypal always sides with the buyer and against the seller, unless the buyer is me.

I have seen roughly 1%-2% of transactions experience some real problem, beyond overgrading or not describing items properly. 3 out of 4 sellers have told me to jump in the lake when I complained, the others gave me my money back and told me to keep the item anyway. Usually it is carelessness or ignorance, with keyboards a lot of sellers don't understand what they have or what its strengths or weaknesses are.

I can count the times I have gotten complaints when I was the seller on one hand, and I have usually done something like refund a third or half of the selling price.

The feedback system on ebay is deeply flawed, but it is actually an ingenious way for strangers all over the world to trust each other.

The fees that both ebay and Paypal charge are obscene, since it costs them nothing, it is all automated, and they have no exposure or risk themselves.

Having said all that, I use ebay almost exclusively since it is "the only game in town" if you really might get the best price for your item in Tasmania.

Also, I have mostly given up on auctions as a seller. I list an item at the highest price I think I might reasonably get, and lower it 10%-20% per week until it sells. A lot of buyers, like myself, will pay more on a sure thing than waiting a week to **** around and wonder what everybody else is going to do.

[whiskerBox]

I currently have a paypal payment being held. I sold a laptop sleeve on ebay and shipped to Indonesia. I promptly shipped the item the day after the auction and then two days later I got an email from paypal advising me not ship. Now they are doing an investigation and I assume i will never see this money. from this I dont think I will be shipping internationally ever again.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

Never had issues with PayPal myself. Whether that's because of PayPal or my own luck, I'm not sure. I've known people who have had problems however. One, an eBay seller, involving non-payment from a buyer who eventually closed his accounts to escape justice; the others, involving the accounts of private Torrent trackers being arbitrarily frozen for receiving "too many" gifts. In each instance the problem wasn't so much the dispute itself but rather the lack of any easy way to resolve it. If I have a bogus charge on my credit card I just call my credit card company and have them reverse the charge; with PayPal, it's not that simple. Their dispute resolution service forces people to jump through a lot of additional hoops, leaving many feeling as though they're being treated like criminals.

[fohat.digs]

In my first few years I was mostly selling collectible vinyl LPs. I had a couple of buyers who thought that I had overgraded my records, I usually worked out partial refunds or replacements with them.

My biggest problem, and the greatest flaw in the system as I see it, is that "Delivery Confirmation" outside the US is difficult, and it is far too easy for a "buyer" to claim that he never received the item, even if he did. Ebay then blames the seller, of course.

Not selling internationally is certainly one way to solve the problem, however, a large percentage of my business has been international, and often they will pay considerably more than domestic US customers.

Without getting into a political dissertation about how China will rule the world, very soon, way ahead of schedule due to the stupidity of American rulers in starting insane and illegal wars, I would certainly be grateful if ebay/paypal would create a mechanism for US sellers to export our national treasures (such as IBM Model Fs and Model Ms) to the rest of the world in a more equitable manner.

[fohat.digs]

Hate to make 2 posts in a row, but here is a new way for sellers to get screwed:

I "sold" a keyboard on ebay 2 days ago. The buyer, who I have sold to before, under a slightly different username, has not yet paid me.

My Ebay "settings" say that "Buy-It-Now" purchases require immediate payment.

I have sent 3 invoices and been ignored (from a buyer who showers you with "robo-messages" after he buys from you) but when I went to Ebay to cancel the deal and re-list the item, I learned that you cannot even cancel a transaction until 4 days after you have sent the first invoice.

So what the heck does "require immediate payment" mean?

Still, I am convinced that ebay is the place to go to get top dollar for your interesting merchandise .....

[Azrael]

I would say Paypal screws me with every payment I receive.

If someone pays 3,50Eur for an item sold for 1 Eur on ebay where I received 2,50Eur for shipping, then paypal charges me about 0.40Eur for their "service". The fact that ebay bought paypal also hasnt improved the situation. pretty rediculous if you ask me.

[whiskerBox]

Surprisingly Paypal didn't screw me this time the funds were released

[iMav]

Indonesia.  Only Nigeria and Italy are worse.

To what are you referring?

[whiskerBox]

Indonesia.  Only Nigeria and Italy are worse.

 
I guess I just felt bad for the guy because I always want stuff from other countries and have trouble getting it.

[Lanx]

paypal is the reason i just packrat everything, imo if i sold stuff, i know buyers are stupid, and they have all the power to "shut" you down and just say stupid stuff to paypal, i mean if you really look at it, the big weak link in the chain of buyer/seller/ebay/paypal so much paypal... and it's only one-sided. Plus i wouldn't be able to deal with customers, customers are needy and stupid. Yea i know, i sound horrible and yea i buy lots from ebay, but i used to be salesman as well, so i know how stupid and annoying customers can be, and with one quick paypal claim... they could shut you down just cuz, well they felt like it. They most likely don't even know that, that one dispute can have paypal going all sherlock holmes on you, they just prolly jumped the gun on purchasing or are regretting it, or were drunk or it was late at night... again buyers are stupid. Oh yea there are bad sellers too lol, but i'm looking at this from a potential seller's perspective, which why i stick with just packratting (i don't throw out stuff, unless like it's beyond broken... pentium 60 chip and motherboard? yup in my closet, does it work? who knows)

[Azrael]

Its true that paypal sucks, but on the other hand I think its a necessary evil. Have any of you done an international bank transfer before? At a bank? With IBAN/SWIFT? Or even before that?
With the comparatively new IBAN/SWIFT it was easier, at least within Europe. But that also cost like 1 eur if I remember correctly, and it took like5 days to transfer the money. But before that it was totally disastrous if you needed to transfer money to abroad. Took ages and costs started on 2,50Eur for any kind of transfer.

[Ekaros]

Its true that paypal sucks, but on the other hand I think its a necessary evil. Have any of you done an international bank transfer before? At a bank? With IBAN/SWIFT? Or even before that?
With the comparatively new IBAN/SWIFT it was easier, at least within Europe. But that also cost like 1 eur if I remember correctly, and it took like5 days to transfer the money. But before that it was totally disastrous if you needed to transfer money to abroad. Took ages and costs started on 2,50Eur for any kind of transfer.

Inside Europe bank-transfer may even be free, ofc reversibility is worse. So you need to work with police if you are scammed, on other hand it's non-anonymous.

[BababooeyHTJ]

I've always had good luck with paypal over the years. You have to be careful when trading online.

My only gripe is that the fees are a bit steep.

[BiNiaRiS]

I've always had good luck with paypal over the years. You have to be careful when trading online.

My only gripe is that the fees are a bit steep.

I think Paypal fees are completely fine. Paying $3 for a $100 transaction isn't bad.

It's eBay fees that are out of control. Add in fees from Paypal (which they of course own now) and it gets even worse.

[Lanx]

what're the ebay fee's like?

[Azrael]

I think Paypal fees are completely fine. Paying $3 for a $100 transaction isn't bad.

It's eBay fees that are out of control. Add in fees from Paypal (which they of course own now) and it gets even worse.

That is true, but I just checked my account to see how much it was exactly. last time I received a payment of about 3,70Eur, and what about the fees? 0,42Eur.
So if the sum is big, there is no problem. But what they do with small sums is horrific.