Author Topic: Why tenkeyless?  (Read 65087 times)

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Offline Zamorph

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Why tenkeyless?
« on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:00:01 »
I asked this a few months ago, but I do want to ask again.

Why tenkeyless?  
Since I came to GH, I learned about boards and bought a filco, but I never used tenkeyless so I got a 104.  I was mainly scared I wouldnt like it just because of all the years I had a numpad on my board. (You know,  like nostalgia)  
I always think about trying a tenkeyless now, but idkkkk.  (Not saying I dont like my 104, just wanna try something new)

@ programmers, do you use tenkeyless?
« Last Edit: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:16:16 by Zamorph »

Offline Lanx

  • Posts: 1915
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:03:52 »
ergonomic reasons - mouse is closer to mouse hand, shoulders don't have to be stretched far apart if you aren't some 6ft giant.

others like it for compactness.

Offline Quarzac

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:04:14 »
TKLs are nice for people who don't use the numpad too much. They take up less desk space, keep the mouse closer to you, and apparently because of the reduced movement, can be slightly better for you (RSI wise) over time.
Risen from the dead for a model F.

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Offline Zamorph

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:05:20 »
Anyone have any stories where they didnt know if they would like tenkeyless, bought one, and liked it?

Offline kaiserreich

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:09:46 »
I did.

Bought a tenkeyless, and also a poker. Found out that hands don't have to be stretched so far apart, it feels rather comfortable.
Now that I am using my 101-key Model M again, spreading my arms apart feels rather awkward.

Offline Lolcakes

  • Posts: 122
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:10:14 »
The biggest reason for me to like the tenkeyless design more than the full size is that it allows me to have my hands closer to one another since the mouse can go further left. The space i save is also nice and as result its easier to rotate the keyboard (I like to move my chair, and when I do, I rotate the keyboard so that its in front of me)

Not to mention that I dont need the numpad ^^ The number row feels more comfortable for me because when I need to type a number I am typing a lot of letters anyways, so going to the numpad, just for a number isnt too nice (programming job)

This is my reasoning (=


PS: Yep, I wasnt sure if id like it before i bought it. When my kb arrived it took me one day to get used to the form factor. I cant operate those huge "full size" keyboards anymore, they get in the way of my mouse O:
« Last Edit: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:12:24 by Lolcakes »

Offline Lanx

  • Posts: 1915
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:12:41 »
i "grew up" learning to touch type and that means entering in numbers with a numpad (no accounting work, but i can enter in a credit card superfast), i also gamed with the numpad for years on fps/mmo, i modded keyboard and tried out TKL, was pretty easy to get adjusted to the numrow to enter in numbers (not as fast), still like it, more ergo. I mean worse case scenerio you pay a bit more for a numpad (more for mech numpad of course). then there are some of those TKL with the programmed button that lets jkl/uio act as a numpad.

Offline Zamorph

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:13:39 »
Your a programmer and dont use the numpad a lot? /confused
explain lolcakes


@ programmers, do you use tenkeyless?
« Last Edit: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:15:51 by Zamorph »

Offline alaricljs

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:27:06 »
When I was programming (and still now when I write scripts) since my hands were already in position on the alphabet it was always easier to use the number row for whatever numbers were needed for loops and so forth rather than swinging over to the numpad.

It's like using shift/ctrl-Ins for copy/paste while using the mouse to hi-light/navigate.  Lots of hand movement for no reason.  Using Ctrl-C/V/X is way easier if you're mousing to navigate.
Filco w/ Imsto thick PBT
Ducky 1087XM PCB+Plate, w/ Matias "Quiet Click" spring-swapped w/ XM Greens

Offline Lolcakes

  • Posts: 122
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:27:44 »
Quote from: Zamorph;417929
Your a programmer and dont use the numpad a lot? /confused
explain lolcakes


Programmer is different than accountant :P Well basically with any programming language you will be using symbols like {}();$%&! a lot! All of those are on or around the number row  - therefore the number row feels more comfortable than the num pad. Also keep in mind that programming in any programming language will involve more letters than numbers in your code, and I believe its easier to press a button that is right above the letters and then go back to the letters as opposed to going all the way to the numpad.

I would guess that an accountant would be typing a lot of numbers all the time so they probably do need a numpad. But again, Im not an accountant so I dont know (:

Hope that was helpful,
Cheers

Edit: typo
« Last Edit: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:37:04 by Lolcakes »

Offline Zamorph

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:35:23 »
Thanks cakes, I thought programmers used more numbers in general
You indeed did help.

Offline iindigo

  • Posts: 103
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:38:41 »
As someone who dabbles in everything from design (photoshop, illustrator, etc) to 3D graphics to Mac/iPhone programming with all kinds of random things inbetween, I found the lack of a numberpad extremely annoying since it is used and required in some software. I know a lot of people like tenkeyless but to me it's an annoyance.

Offline ironman31

  • Posts: 834
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:43:36 »
just get one cheap kinesis or goldtouch numpad with browns and stick it to the right of your mouse. I'm really liking this set up.
Keyboards:
IBM Model M Space Saving Keyboard (Used), HHKB Pro 2 (White, Lettered), Realforce 87U all-45g in White, Filco Majestouch 2 TKL with Cherry MX Browns, Model F PC/ATNoppoo Choc Mini (MX Browns), Model F XT, IBM Model M 1397735 (bought NIB), (2) Siig Minitouch (GHSS) one with XM, one with complicated ALPs (modded),2 Dell AT101W, Cherry G80-11900HRMUS (modded with MX browns)



Pointing Devices:
Logitech G500, Evoluent VerticalMouse 3, Logitech G5, CST 2545W, Microsoft IntelliMouse Trackball, Logitech M570, Logitech MX revolution


Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2249
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:45:11 »
Quote from: Zamorph;417937
Thanks cakes, I thought programmers used more numbers in general
You indeed did help.


I'm a programmer and I ditched numpads years ago. Besides, I use straight-column keyboards like the Kinesis Advantage, which makes it very easy to touch-type the number row. With this keyboard, I never have to look at the keys.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Soarer

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:46:01 »
Why would a programmer need to enter a lot of numbers? Sure, there's the occasional number, but the number row is plenty good enough for that. Being able to have the main qwerty part of the keyboard more central in front of you is a big benefit, all the time.

But no, I don't use TKL, having to move between the cursors and the pgup/pgdn/etc block sucks.
84-key AT layout, or Raptor K1 (Cherry 1800)... with numlock OFF!

Offline Lolcakes

  • Posts: 122
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:48:08 »
Quote from: Zamorph;417937
Thanks cakes, I thought programmers used more numbers in general
You indeed did help.


I hope thats not too annoying for you to look at. Posting just for the sake of comparison and so that you can see how few numbers you get to type.
By the way this is the beauty of fluid dynamics and thats opengl code in C. Id love to talk about it but I know i have to limit myself to keyboards here (which are just as exciting) :P

Code: [Select]
void CPool::Update(float deltaTime)
{

int xc,zc;

for (xc = 0; xc < m_xSize; xc++)
{
for (zc = 0; zc < m_zSize; zc++)
{
int ArrayPos = xc+zc*m_xSize;

m_Oscillators[ArrayPos].newY = m_Oscillators[ArrayPos].y;

//check, if this oscillator is on an edge (=>end)
if ((xc==0) || (xc==m_xSize-1) || (zc==0) || (zc==m_zSize-1))
;//TBD: calculating m_Oscillators at the edge (if the end is free)
else
{
 //calculate new speed

float AvgDifference = m_Oscillators[ArrayPos-1].y //left neighbor
+m_Oscillators[ArrayPos+1].y //right neighbor
+m_Oscillators[ArrayPos-m_xSize].y  //upper neighbor
+m_Oscillators[ArrayPos+m_xSize].y  //lower neighbor
-4*m_Oscillators[ArrayPos].y;

m_Oscillators[ArrayPos].UpSpeed += AvgDifference*(deltaTime/m_OscillatorWeight);

m_Oscillators[ArrayPos].UpSpeed *= (1.0f-m_Damping);

 //calculate the new posit
m_Oscillators[ArrayPos].newY += m_Oscillators[ArrayPos].UpSpeed*deltaTime;
 


}
}
}

//copy the new position to y:
for ( xc = 0; xc < m_xSize; xc++)
{
for (int zc = 0; zc < m_zSize; zc++)
{
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].y =m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].newY;
}
}
//calc new norm vect
for ( xc = 0; xc < m_xSize; xc++)
{
for (int zc = 0; zc < m_zSize; zc++)
{


SF3dVector u,v,p1,p2;

if (xc > 0) p1 = F3dVector(m_Oscillators[xc-1+zc*m_xSize].x,
  m_Oscillators[xc-1+zc*m_xSize].y,
  m_Oscillators[xc-1+zc*m_xSize].z);
else
p1 = F3dVector(m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].x,
  m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].y,
  m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].z);
if (xc < m_xSize-1)
p2 = F3dVector(m_Oscillators[xc+1+zc*m_xSize].x,
  m_Oscillators[xc+1+zc*m_xSize].y,
  m_Oscillators[xc+1+zc*m_xSize].z);
else
p2 = F3dVector(m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].x,
  m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].y,
  m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].z);
u = p2-p1; //vector from the left neighbor to the right neighbor
if (zc > 0) p1 = F3dVector(m_Oscillators[xc+(zc-1)*m_xSize].x,
  m_Oscillators[xc+(zc-1)*m_xSize].y,
  m_Oscillators[xc+(zc-1)*m_xSize].z);
else
p1 = F3dVector(m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].x,
  m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].y,
  m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].z);
if (zc < m_zSize-1)
p2 = F3dVector(m_Oscillators[xc+(zc+1)*m_xSize].x,
  m_Oscillators[xc+(zc+1)*m_xSize].y,
  m_Oscillators[xc+(zc+1)*m_xSize].z);
else
p2 = F3dVector(m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].x,
  m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].y,
  m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].z);
v = p2-p1; //vector from the upper neighbor to the lower neighbor

SF3dVector normal = Normalize3dVector(CrossProduct(&u,&v));


if (normal.y > 0.0)  
{
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].nx = normal.x;
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].ny = normal.y;
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].nz = normal.z;
}
else
{
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].nx = -normal.x;
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].ny = -normal.y;
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].nz = -normal.z;
}
}
}

}

Offline Zamorph

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 211
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:52:23 »
Wowzer, its not annoying to look at I just dont know what im looking at lol.  What script is that?.....If its even a script lol

@soar, you use your numpad for things other than numbers?:O what do you do for a living?
« Last Edit: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:55:41 by Zamorph »

Offline redpill

  • Posts: 503
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:54:55 »
I love tenkeyless for gaming and typing on the net.  I keep a Model M in a tray below my RF 87UB 55g at home for doing various financial stuff, payroll, etc.  At work I alternate between a RF 104UB 55g and a tenkeyless Ducky, and a Poker for meetings.  

There are times when I really find a numberpad handy, so I do like to have that option, but 90% of the time I'd say I much prefer my RF 87UB 55g at home over anything.  I can keep my trackball close and for gaming it's great.

^ Current Favorite ^  Topre Realforce 87UB 55g  |  Topre Realforce 103UB 55g | KBC Poker/Browns/Sanded KeycapsDucky 1087 | Filco MajesFoam-2 | IBM Model M 1390131 Feb '87 | Still Love: Microsoft Trackball Explorer x3 | Now Unused:  Microsoft Natural Ergo 4k x2

Offline Lolcakes

  • Posts: 122
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:57:33 »
Quote from: Zamorph;417946
Wowzer, its not annoying to look at I just dont know what im looking at lol.  What script is that?.....If its even a script lol


nope, its not a script i dont script (: Its part of a class to calculate ripples that form on the surface of a fluid when a particle collides with it. It uses the openGL library for displaying it in 3D and the language is
C++. It is just applying physics models (this is why i said the beauty of fluid dynamics :P)

Offline Zamorph

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:58:01 »
@redpill, why not just use the little numpad accessory?  Like bringing in the big guns for the numpad? ;)
Also, can you really feel the difference with the numpad gone in terms of ergo?

@cakes, o I want to do that.  I could make up BS and everyone would believe me :) lol

Offline Lolcakes

  • Posts: 122
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 22:21:18 »
Quote from: Zamorph;417949
@cakes, o I want to do that.  I could make up BS and everyone would believe me :) lol

Its nicer when you see stuff working finally. This i clip i took cause i was excited about my camera controls working.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9M2gnZFiIA

Ps: for work i code boring stuff ): This is for university stuff

Edit: For some reason my sentences dont make sense; too tired. Need sleep. Good night forum
« Last Edit: Sat, 17 September 2011, 22:27:01 by Lolcakes »

Offline Zamorph

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 22:24:00 »
That was awesome:).  I would have gone into programming, but I choose a different path.

Offline bach0

  • Posts: 13
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 22:39:07 »
I've never used Tenkeyless before and although I don't use.the numpad much, I was worried that I wouldnt like it. But only way to find out was to actually use one and I've ordered Filco tenkeyless. I just love it. I don't miss the numpad at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline bojinglebells

  • Posts: 40
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #23 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 23:19:56 »
more ergonomic, less hand travel when moving mousing hand to keyboard, more desk space, travels easier
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Filco M2 TKL R - SteelSeries 6Gv2 - Cherry G80-3494 - Razer BlackWidow[/SIZE][/FONT]

Offline Malphas

  • Posts: 247
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #24 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 23:42:43 »
I hadn't even heard of tenkeyless until very recently when I started looking into buying a new keyboard, but I'd often thought the numpad was a bit pointless and outdated (for me personally, that is).  Makes sense to me just to ditch it and save desktop space.  I can't think of a single time I've used a numpad in at least a decade.

Offline pitashen

  • Posts: 1200
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 17 September 2011, 23:59:40 »
shorter reach to the mouse from the typing area. Numpad has very little use to me.
\\\\ DSI Mac Modular Keyboard (Brown) w/ Leo  Blank Keycaps //
\\\\ Leopold 87keys Keyboard (Brown) w/ Black CherryCorp + SP DoubleShots //
\\\\ Filco Majestouch 2 NINJA (Black) w/ White CherryCorp + SP DoublsShots //

Offline theferenc

  • Posts: 1327
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 18 September 2011, 00:16:00 »
I have keyboards from the HHKB to a 122 key Model F, and I have to say, I find it frustrating using a keyboard without the numpad. I do a lot of programming, and like most people who do that, numbers tend to be confined to variable and constant declarations, all in a block at the top of a file or the top of a function. As such, when typing them in, I find it vastly easier to use the numpad. But when writing actual code, numbers are comparitively rare, since they are all stored in variables instead of hard coded.

Also, I'm more of a keyboard shortcut person. I find that people who prefer tenkeyless generally tend to use the mouse a lot. I have mousekeys enabled in X, and I use keyboard shortcuts for almost everything. Basically, I'm rarely using both the keyboard and the mouse. It's almost always one or the other, and I always move the unused item out of the way. So for me, the arm reach issue isn't an issue.

Whenever I boot up a game like Dragon Age though, I prefer to use my keyboards without tenkeys. Because that's just about the only time I use both keyboard and mouse simultaneously.

So it's all in how much you use your mouse.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline Deverica Wolf

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 18 September 2011, 00:39:21 »
Quote from: Zamorph;417921
Anyone have any stories where they didnt know if they would like tenkeyless, bought one, and liked it?

Me. I just bought my first Tenkeyless (Filco) as a gift for my Mother but have been playing with it first. I have noticed how much more comfortable and natural my hands are with the keyboard right in-front of me, which is impossible with the full-size. I can only imagine it wiould make one a better and faster typer. It's something you don't know until you order one 'cause proir to that, I was just fine with the Numpad being there. Now I am thinking of getting two new keyboards in Tenkeyless.

Also, the standalone Filco Numpad is better than the normal Numpads due to the extra buttons.
UNICOMP.Spacesaver BS  |  FILCO Majestouch-2 TKL  |  FILCO Majestouch-2  [-_-]~ TKL  |  FILCO Majestouch-2 TKL
FILCO Majestouch-2 TKL  |  Deck Legend - ToXic  |  CHERRY Touchboard ITA

Offline shrap

  • Posts: 215
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 18 September 2011, 01:47:00 »
I used a circular saw to hack the numpad on one of my Microsoft Natural Elite keyboards six years ago. Prefer tenkeyless ever since, even though I currently don't use one.

Offline HeavyArms

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #29 on: Sun, 18 September 2011, 02:25:02 »
Quote from: Lanx;417917
ergonomic reasons - mouse is closer to mouse hand, shoulders don't have to be stretched far apart if you aren't some 6ft giant.

others like it for compactness.


This.
Head in the clouds.

Offline RickyJ

  • Posts: 550
  • Location: Victoria, BC
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #30 on: Sun, 18 September 2011, 02:33:38 »
I started using my left hand for numpad duty a long time ago for entering numbers while mousing with my right.  I never thought I'd be able to do without the numpad right on the keyboard, but I find it works infinitely better using a separate numpad to the left of the keyboard.  My desk isn't that big, so it allowed the alpha keys on my keyboard to move further to the right, into a more natural position with my chair.  I find that everything I do day-to-day is much more comfortable using a tenkeyless board, and I don't forsee myself switching back.
Currently GMMK Pro: lubed 68g U4T, FR4 plate, extra gaskets, etc

Offline daerid

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #31 on: Sun, 18 September 2011, 02:43:27 »
I would love to go exclusively -10key for all my boards, but unfortunately I make my living using software that requires the -10key for any serious work (Pro Tools).

But having said that, if anybody tried to take my -10key brown, there'd be blood.

Offline cmh

  • Posts: 30
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 18 September 2011, 03:14:58 »
I recently bought a new 104 Filco but in the last couple of days I started to use my tenkeyless "Otaku" again to force myself to start being more accurate with my touch typing.  After using it for gaming I noticed how the small size of the keyboard was more comfortable to use than a regular size keyboard and decided to not switch back.  Having the extra desk space where you can move your mouse pad closer to the keyboard is very nice.  I'm also able to angle my keyboard a lot better for obvious reasons.  I wish the gaming companies would adapt this form factor but it seems all their consumers want is flashing lights and 500 macro keys.  Not that there's anything wrong with back-lighting.
Leopold FC700r (MX reds) | Realforce 87u 45g | Filco MJ2 Metallic Blue (MX Brown) | Filco MJ2 Tenkeyless (MX Red/Brown/Blue) | Ducky Shine II Tenkeyless  White LED (MX Red) | CM Storm QFR (MX Red)

Offline nhwhaup

  • Posts: 230
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #33 on: Sun, 18 September 2011, 03:42:58 »
I originally didn't even think about a TKL until I found this forum. After I picked up my first TKL, I found that I like the smaller format better. Mainly due to it being a little more centered as well as not having to have the mouse so far apart. and then at home my rather small keyboard tray doesn't allow for a full sized keyboard and mouse together.  It didn't take me long to get used to working without a number pad. I have separate ones to plug in if I have to work heavily with numbers.
Current in order of preference:  RealForce 87U Silent White with variable weighted keys X 2, Filco Majestouch 2 Tenkeyless with Linear Reds, Filco Number-pad, Poker with Linear Reds

Sold or returned:  Multiple Microsoft and Logitech keyboards, Das Keyboard Silent, Cherry 6140, RealForce 103UB, RealForce 86U, Filco Majestouch 2 full sized with Linear Reds

Offline jedcred

  • Posts: 13
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 18 September 2011, 12:00:56 »
I bought a tenkeyless because I thought I would use it at home (where I have right-handed only mice), then started using it at work instead (where the ergo guys had gotten me used to mousing with my left hand for the reasons stated above).  Now I have a tenkeyless and I mouse on the left anyway.  Now there's even this weird associative disorder where I can't mouse on the right at work because it "feels" wrong, and vice-versa at home.  D'oh!
Keyboards:
Filco tenkeyless with Cherry Blues
IBM Model M \'93
Razer Blackwidow x 2 (because parts)
Goldtouch Adjustable
Logitech MX 5500

Offline Khenra

  • Posts: 65
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #35 on: Sun, 18 September 2011, 13:14:04 »
I recently bought my first mechanical keyboard, and I decided to go with a tenkeyless layout. I learned touch typing with the regular number keys, so I didn't miss the num pad at all. I'll never switch back to a full size keyboard: with a tenkeyless layout it is much more comfortable to switch from using the mouse to typing, and vice versa.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Filco Majestouch-2 Tenkeyless Cherry MX Brown

Offline Fuzzy Dunlop

  • Posts: 79
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 18 September 2011, 14:55:53 »
I'm a lefty and my desk setup is an L-shape; a full keyboard barely fits in my tray, and it leaves my left elbow bumping up against the adjoining desk. I don't use the numeric keypad, so a TKL board makes the most sense for me.


Topre ReɅlforce 86UB   |   Razer DeathAdder Black Edition

Offline jbluzb

  • Posts: 17
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #37 on: Fri, 02 December 2011, 02:26:16 »
I am using a filco tenkeyless, and it is a breath of fresh air. It is something really good. Maybe typing speed has actually increased.

I would like to also comment that I hear the famous ping of Filco on the backspace. But still no biggie as this is my first venture in owning a mechanical keyboard.

Offline hazeluff

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #38 on: Fri, 02 December 2011, 09:02:04 »
Personally will not get a TKL. I love typing numbers into my compiler/calculator(/or infact anything that needs numbers) using the number pad.
Fight For Freedom. Stand with Hong Kongers

Offline bloodygood

  • Posts: 310
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 02 December 2011, 16:29:41 »
I am a programmer and I use a tenkeyless Filco. Although I am planning on upgrading to a 62 key DOX soon. (62 in my case refers to the backspace being replaced by 2 keys instead of 1 long backspace.) Similar in feel to the happy hacking keyboard. Each person has different tastes though. My reasoning is I love the compact design perfect for taking to work/school/friends or anywhere else I might need to take it. Also that means I can leave the larger tenkeyless at home where I use it for everything from coding to data input to speed typing to gaming. I planned out my layout for the keys in the most optimal way I could still have all the functionality of a tenkeyless without the size using a Fn modifier. If you want to look into creating your own follow the DOX keyboard thread in the modifications subforum.
Current collection: Filco Tenkeyless MX Brown, IBM Model M, Happy Hacking Keyboard Lite II, Dell AT101W.
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Offline dorkvader

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 02 December 2011, 17:16:53 »
Quote from: hazeluff;462740
Personally will not get a TKL. I love typing numbers into my compiler/calculator(/or infact anything that needs numbers) using the number pad.

Same here. I have my unicomp right near my CMstorm for the tenkey usage. I'd say the best method is to have a TKL keyboard, with an add on tenkey. I might get some ALPSulaters for that purpose.

Offline fohat.digs

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 02 December 2011, 19:05:25 »
I use my numpad quite a bit for work, since I do a lot of price calculations and estimates.

For personal use, I suppose that I could get away without a numpad, but I already switch between multiple keyboards and the disconnect is jarring.

My laptop has a numpad, too, and so now I feel like it "should" be there.

By the way, I moved my mouse to the left, even though I am a hardened right-hander, and it has been a good move.

Still looking for a dead simple, no frills, lightweight symmetrical mouse. I have a wired beige Microsoft from about 5 years ago that I like pretty well.
"However, even though I was born in the Mesozoic, I do know what anyone who wants to reach out to young people should say: Billionaires took your money. They took your chance to buy a home. They took your chance at a good education. They stole your opportunities. Billionaires took the things you want in life. If you really want those things, you have to take them back.
That's the message. That's the whole message. Say that every day, not just to reach America's frustrated young white men, but people of every age, race, and gender.
Late-stage capitalism is a wealth-concentration engine, focused on vacuuming up every dollar and putting it in as few hands as possible. Republicans are helping that vacuum suck.
How does a tiny fraction of the population get away with this? They do it by dividing the other 99% of Americans against themselves."
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Offline patrickgeekhack

  • Posts: 1460
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 02 December 2011, 20:37:29 »
Quote from: Soarer;417944
Why would a programmer need to enter a lot of numbers? Sure, there's the occasional number, but the number row is plenty good enough for that. Being able to have the main qwerty part of the keyboard more central in front of you is a big benefit, all the time.

But no, I don't use TKL, having to move between the cursors and the pgup/pgdn/etc block sucks.
84-key AT layout, or Raptor K1 (Cherry 1800)... with numlock OFF!


Some programmers do. I used to be a Visual Basic programmer working mainly on mangement information systems storing a lot of numbers in the database. The project leader of the company I worked for was very very picky. When you say that your portion is done, he should not be able to find a bug, otherwise, he'll let you know in a not so nice way. That means we needed to create our own data to test. This was were the number pad came in handy.

At home, I did consider a tenkeyless and separate number pad, but ended buying full-size keyboards, and an Evoluent ouse instead. I also try to use keyboard shortcuts as much as possible. I don't think I can live without a number pad because I use Excel a lot. Every night I enter all my expenses.
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline alaricljs

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 02 December 2011, 20:43:03 »
Wait, what?  You're a programmer and you created data by TYPING it?  That's a little disturbing.
Filco w/ Imsto thick PBT
Ducky 1087XM PCB+Plate, w/ Matias "Quiet Click" spring-swapped w/ XM Greens

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #44 on: Fri, 02 December 2011, 20:52:45 »
Yes, we had to as hard as it is to believe. It was a requirement to have the data as close as production data. We were not allowed to "automate" the data production. By using the software to actually input the data allowed us to make sure every textbox on the screen was working as they should. The motto was: "The user should not be able to do anything he/she is not supposed to do." So, as part of the testing process, we had to pretend to be a dumb user doing the stupidest things. Why? We, the programmers were biased. If we did not force ourselves to pretend we were dumb users, we would have tested the software by doing things "right." And believe or not, it was for a government agency (before coming to Canada).

One thing I learned though for the rest of my life I think is:  think well before implementing. I have seen my fair share of bad code in Canada.
« Last Edit: Fri, 02 December 2011, 20:57:30 by patrickgeekhack »
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline alaricljs

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #45 on: Fri, 02 December 2011, 20:56:15 »
So write an automation script that automates the data input to the actual software to create the data... but yeah, being as how it was in the government there's no surprises about the level of stupidity.
Filco w/ Imsto thick PBT
Ducky 1087XM PCB+Plate, w/ Matias "Quiet Click" spring-swapped w/ XM Greens

Offline patrickgeekhack

  • Posts: 1460
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #46 on: Fri, 02 December 2011, 21:02:11 »
Quote from: alaricljs;463141
So write an automation script that automates the data input to the actual software to create the data... but yeah, being as how it was in the government there's no surprises about the level of stupidity.

It was for the management of military mess (messes?). The guys were very good with guns, but not so good with computers. I don't work as a programmer anymore. I am working towards becoming a translator (French/English) because I like grammar more. The only skill I have kept and still update is Crystal Reports and SQL. Crystal Reports is definitely a nice skill to have.
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline Clickey

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #47 on: Fri, 02 December 2011, 22:18:57 »
Nice avatar :nod:
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Offline Soarer

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Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #48 on: Sat, 03 December 2011, 06:02:56 »
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;463133
I don't think I can live without a number pad because I use Excel a lot. Every night I enter all my expenses.

I guess I might turn NumLock on if I were entering a long series of numbers (and use enter / tab to move to the next box in the column / row). But, expenses include descriptions etc, so actually even there the numbers are only a part of it.

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;463139
... as part of the testing process, we had to pretend to be a dumb user doing the stupidest things. Why? We, the programmers were biased. If we did not force ourselves to pretend we were dumb users, we would have tested the software by doing things "right."

I've worked with some great testers over the years, and some annoying ones. None of them were annoyed at finding bugs though - the annoying ones were particularly gleeful! It's just not sensible for a programmer to spend too much time testing, but when the need arises I find it helps to move to a completely different PC, or at least reboot to a separate OS installation that doesn't have dev tools etc, or at least change keyboard - even to a rubber dome if it helps change the mindset!
« Last Edit: Sat, 03 December 2011, 06:05:17 by Soarer »

Offline patrickgeekhack

  • Posts: 1460
Why tenkeyless?
« Reply #49 on: Sat, 03 December 2011, 08:27:53 »
Quote from: Soarer;463295
I guess I might turn NumLock on if I were entering a long series of numbers (and use enter / tab to move to the next box in the column / row). But, expenses include descriptions etc, so actually even there the numbers are only a part of it.

True. There are descriptions, but I keep track of my expenses, as well as my wife and my daughter's.  I should have gotten a tenkeyless and separate number pad, but they would have cost me much more than just a Topre keyboard alone.

In some cases, it is not possible. I am currently using an AEK II at work.  

Quote

I've worked with some great testers over the years, and some annoying ones. None of them were annoyed at finding bugs though - the annoying ones were particularly gleeful! It's just not sensible for a programmer to spend too much time testing, but when the need arises I find it helps to move to a completely different PC, or at least reboot to a separate OS installation that doesn't have dev tools etc, or at least change keyboard - even to a rubber dome if it helps change the mindset!

Yes, it helps a lot when you change your mindset when testing. At least, that's what I found.


Quote from: Clickey;463173
Nice avatar :nod:

You mean my avatar? If yes, it's a nice one indeed :)
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1