Help me with NOT buying a topre board

[Lolcakes]

Hey guys!

So here is the deal.... I really want a topre board. A TKL realforce or a HHKB pro2.
2 Months ago I bought a Filco TKL with blue switches and I am loving it. I do quite a bit of programming, some gaming, every day use etc - I love the feel and the sound I also enjoy.

Topre for me is now like the next thing... i want to have it because it seems so cool on videos. Plus, both HHLB and the realforce boards look so SEXY!

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 27019[/ATTACH]
(picture not mine, adding it only to spice up the post)

I suppose I could sell my Filco... but I know I will miss it...I play SC2... I wont be able to do that on a HHKB for example. I really wouldnt like to sell it, its my board, my baby, and it is still very cute.

The reasons why I find the topre boards so attractive to me is because they sound quite sweet, and the looks are nice - I like the white/gray on the realforce more but HHKB's layout is osmething that I might potentially really like - even now I have my Caps lock as a CTRL key on my filco, and I like the compactness.

One big plus for the Realforce though is the F and arrow keys - I use those a lot. Now that I am thinking about it I use the Home and End keys a lot too.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 27018[/ATTACH]
(this pic is mine, thats the... u guessed it...arrow keys)

Anyways, the purpose of this thread is, if possible, for me to convince myself to to save the money - I need them for other things.
So why should I not buy those amazing, sweet sounding boards and save the money to use for other, boring trivial things?

I have come up with a few reasons so far:

1. Im based in England and the keyboardco dont have HHKBs - having to buy one from the US might be a hassle... shipping will take longer, any problems would be more difficult to resolve etc.

2. Regarding the Realforce - the keyboardco do have them, however, I want it in white/gray (cause its more sexy ofc). The only one in white they have is this one http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=794 The US layout doesnt bother me, but its the older model and... I wish it was with all 45g keys

3. Speaking of actuation force - I think I would prefer all 45g, but the white ones from EK are out of stock, which means i should look into HHKB, or try to think if I would like a variable force keyboard.

4. The price...

5. If I manage to convince myself taht there will be a new model coming out, HHKB or a Realforce, not not but in a couple of months, I could be telling myself that I am "waiting" for that future model and that why I am not buying any of the current boards.

A huge part of me is screaming that I should buy both... but that would be really bad for my wallet.
So what do you guys think?

Thanks for reading and thanks for sharing your view/participating in the thread (:

[keyboardlover]

Just buy me one instead. Win, win.

[Lolcakes]

I can help.

Your typical HHKB user looks like this.
(Attachment Link) 27022[/ATTACH]

What is the reason for this phenomena? I a habit of shaving my facial hair and maintaining a decent hair style. Is there something that I am missing?

[Lolcakes]

The HHKB3 should be out any day now.  PFU normally runs on a 2 year development cycle.  The Silent doesn't count (unless you want to slice off your arm and pay THAT price).

Really? that really does get me excited! A feature I would like is... gray key caps with the same tint as the Realforce ones! And dedicated home/end buttons! So i guess I can have this motivate me. And if it does come around Christmas I could treat myself with this beauty! (I promise I will continue to shave my facial hair)

@kl Sure just name which one you want ^^

[Urglifast]

I can help.

Your typical HHKB user looks like this.
(Attachment Link) 27022[/ATTACH]

that's what happens when you spend all your money on a topre keyboard and can't buy a razor.

[Lolcakes]

The other reason is you would be rewarding design engineers that think DIP switches are cool.

But they kind of are, no? I so wish I was able to have my Caps lock of my filco as CTRL on hardware level... just by flippinga DIP switch. Damn ppl at university, they dont allow me to make registry changes to the computers there........ WHY ? O:

[himynameisbunny]

Funny, I was just about to make the same thread. Might as well post here.

Don't get me wrong, I love my variable weighted Browns/Ergo Clears poker...but I want something a bit smoother and quieter.

I just can't get my head around a $300 asking price for one.

Convince me why I should/shouldn't buy one please!

[theferenc]

Springy glory my ass.

Lolcakes, you can run AutoHotKey as a portable executable, meaning you don't have to install it. This is what I did on one of my workstations in my office, where I don't have admin access, and they weren't real keen on me doing a registry remap.

But tomorrow, I get to fight them over the remap, since it fundamentally works better for me.

On topic, the HHKB is totally awesome, and ripster is making **** up with that picture. Everyone I know with a HHKB (and I know quite a few) are sysadmins or faculty, mostly in academia. Mostly clean shaven, or at least properly trimmed. There are definitely compromises, though I feel they are worth it for the feel and the portability.

[himynameisbunny]

There are definitely compromises, though I feel they are worth it for the feel and the portability.

Compromises? I suppose you mean outlay and layout?

lolseewhatididthar

[Lolcakes]

Springy glory my ass.

Lolcakes, you can run AutoHotKey as a portable executable, meaning you don't have to install it. This is what I did on one of my workstations in my office, where I don't have admin access, and they weren't real keen on me doing a registry remap.

Thanks I will try that! I am thinking maybe my reson for not bying a HHKB now is so that I can wait for the HHKB3. Do you also agree that it should be out any time now? Baybe it is going to give me just enough time to acquire more money (=

[himynameisbunny]

Thanks I will try that! I am thinking maybe my reson for not bying a HHKB now is so that I can wait for the HHKB3. Do you also agree that it should be out any time now? Baybe it is going to give me just enough time to acquire more money (=

Remember that the HHKB3 will push the HHKB2 prices down.

Does anybody really think that there's any more room for improvement?

[Lolcakes]

Compromises? I suppose you mean outlay and layout?

lolseewhatididthar

Looking at a picture of a HHKB i am thinking that I can probably get used to pressing Fn K and Fn < to use my home/end keys.

Look at the force curve! Glorified rubber dome if you ask me. What the Topre fanboi calls "smooth" is really mushy compared to the springy glory that is Cherry MX!

I am wondering this... how spring-y are topre switches when you release the keys? i really how my cherry switches jump back into position as soon as I release the key - in that aspect RD seem very sluggish.
I saw some ripometer action on topre switches by ripster with and without the springs in the topre switches and the difference was very small when pressing down. Is it possible the prong to be more about returning the key into up position faster when released?

[himynameisbunny]

Looking at a picture of a HHKB i am thinking that I can probably get used to pressing Fn K and Fn < to use my home/end keys.

What do you use your Home/End keys for? I've just realised I've never used 'em...

[keyboardlover]

Unless you program in emacs/vim the hhkb layout isn't really a great layout for programmers IMHO.

[Paulie]

Plus the fact that the HHKB isn't (although I could be wrong) available with the UK layout. That would seriously annoy me.

[Lolcakes]

What do you use your Home/End keys for? I've just realised I've never used 'em...

Every time i need to go to the top of a page... or to the bottom of a page. Useful when you want to go to the top of your code where your declarations are... or just to the top of a web page.
I find scrolling a lot with the mouse wheel so exhausting ^^ I use PgUP/ Down quite a bit for the same reason (:

[himynameisbunny]

Unless you program in emacs/vim the hhkb layout isn't really a great layout for programmers IMHO.

I don't do programming anymore so I wouldn't be too worried about that...but how suitable is it for just text editing and typing?

[keyboardlover]

I don't do programming anymore so I wouldn't be too worried about that...but how suitable is it for just text editing and typing?

It really all depends on the individual person...some love it, some hate it.

[pyro]

i started off with a blue mx poker, but wasn't quite satisfied and decided to get a hhkb pro 2 next. i was really disappoined at how it felt like just an antiquated expensive rubberdome. if you want a cleaner feel, get cherry reds (or ghettoreds). you can then proceed to throw your money at modded keycaps, if you're into looks, but it'll still be way cheaper than buying a topre.

as a side-story, hp are said to have had really good chiclet-style keyboards on their laptops. after i got the blue poker, i suddenly started to dislike how the keys of my hp felt. with the hhkb as my main keyboard the hp keys felt good again. that says something about the quality of the keys on the hhkb, right? (i'm really happy with my ghettoreds now)

and i wouldn't worry much about layout. as someone mentioned, you can use autohotkey (or similar tools) to remap anything to your liking, especially if you're a programmer.

e:
if you feel like my experience won't apply to you and you absolutely have to try a topre yourself, get a used one off geekhack, so you can resell it for minimum loss afterwards.

[Findecanor]

I think that Lolcakes should keep his Filco Tenkeyless with blues and outfit it with nicer key caps: either vintage double-shot Cherry key caps or from one of the several groups buys.
Why:
* Looks and coolness factor seems to be the biggest reason to get a Topre.
* The need for arrow keys and arrow cluster (very useful when programming .. and you are not using emacs or vi)
* Tactile switches are better for typing than linear. (my subjective opinion from having used Cherry Blacks at work)

The biggest problem might be to get keys for the ISO layout (group buy) or the Filco arrangement (Cherry corp. keys have a different stem position for the Caps Lock/Ctrl). Most key caps that you can buy are for the ANSI layout.

[insilica]

Why:
* Looks and coolness factor seems to be the biggest reason to get a Topre.
* The need for arrow keys and arrow cluster (very useful when programming .. and you are not using emacs or vi) - arrow keys on my TKL - well probably comes in handy for *some* games
* Tactile switches are better for typing than linear. (my subjective opinion from having used Cherry Blacks at work)

• Agree 100% with the Topre fetish, I just could not justify it
• The arrow cluster - well I program for a living in Linux and I use VIM (a better vi) and therefore I use the home row to navigate.
• Sorry no idea about linearity - still a Newbie, listen to the seniors on this

The biggest problem might be to get keys for the ISO layout (group buy) or the Filco arrangement (Cherry corp. keys have a different stem position for the Caps Lock/Ctrl). Most key caps that you can buy are for the ANSI layout.

That is exactly why I went ANSI - even though I'm a newbie to GH and I live in the UK.

[Lolcakes]

I think that Lolcakes should keep his Filco Tenkeyless with blues and outfit it with nicer key caps: either vintage double-shot Cherry key caps or from one of the several groups buys.
Why:
* Looks and coolness factor seems to be the biggest reason to get a Topre.
* The need for arrow keys and arrow cluster (very useful when programming .. and you are not using emacs or vi)
* Tactile switches are better for typing than linear. (my subjective opinion from having used Cherry Blacks at work)

The biggest problem might be to get keys for the ISO layout (group buy) or the Filco arrangement (Cherry corp. keys have a different stem position for the Caps Lock/Ctrl). Most key caps that you can buy are for the ANSI layout.

I was so impressed by the looks of litster's filco! Hes got double shot key caps from a group buy. I think I will definitely participate in the Group buy 4 because those key caps are so awesome. However its gonna take so much time ):

I am thinking that if keyboardco get some of them white TKL realforce boards with all 45g switches I might as well buy it. I will keep the Filco.. its too nice to sell. I will then have two sweet boards and an empty wallet ^^. However the kayboard co dont have white all 45g realforce boards so I am safe for now.

As for the layout, I think i dont *need* UK layout...
I wish I was able to try a topre button somewhere


Edit:

That is exactly why I went ANSI - even though I'm a newbie to GH and I live in the UK.

I think ANSI layout is probably superior... I like the idea of a bigger left shift and that enter... i dont need it to be so big ^^

[tuffy]

Looking at a picture of a HHKB i am thinking that I can probably get used to pressing Fn K and Fn < to use my home/end keys.

I thought I could too, but found it was too much of a pain over time.  Now I'm much happier with a Realforce tenkeyless.   I get the benefit of physical navigation and F keys, can remap caps lock to ctrl for all my Emacs needs and all while enjoying Topre's excellent keyswitches on a keyboard that's still quite compact.  It's the best keyboard I've found yet.

[theferenc]

Whereas I've actually mapped the HHKB function layer onto my other UNIX layout keyboards, using RControl as the layer switch (using linux). Because once you get used to using it, it feels weird not having it.

[hcry4]

I can help.

Your typical HHKB user looks like this.
(Attachment Link) 27022[/ATTACH]

It's true that I haven't shaved in a while. Though I can't grow much of a beard.
 

Every time i need to go to the top of a page... or to the bottom of a page. Useful when you want to go to the top of your code where your declarations are... or just to the top of a web page.
I find scrolling a lot with the mouse wheel so exhausting ^^ I use PgUP/ Down quite a bit for the same reason (:

Spacebar w/ shift, my friend.
 

Remember that the HHKB3 will push the HHKB2 prices down.

Does anybody really think that there's any more room for improvement?

The only thing I really miss is the right ctrl. With that and an extra Fn key on the left side, it would be much better. It made me consider the HHKB Pro JP layout, but the backspace, enter, and right shift are just wrong. The smaller spacebar may have been tolerable.
 

The HHKB3 should be out any day now.  PFU normally runs on a 2 year development cycle.  The Silent doesn't count (unless you want to slice off your arm and pay THAT price).

I think I inadvertently promised them the soul of my firstborn. Oh, well. That's something for future hcry4 to worry about. I don't envy that guy.

[Jago]

Do not get a HHKB but do get a Topre Realforce. HHKB is a Topre that is both more expensive and less enjoyable.

[redpill]

I second the tenkeyless Realforce.  Fantastic keyboards for everything.  I like the uniform weight on the two I have, but I've not tried the variable ones.

[hcry4]

We're not really helping him NOT buy a Topre.

[pitashen]

OP, you are just trying to justify your desire of getting one huh? If you got the money, WHY NOT? Resell it if you end up not liking it, you won't lose too much of the original value.

If you are a budget minded person, cost alone should have stop you from getting the topres.

[itlnstln]

As a matter of fact, I have my 103UB for sale - $200 OBO.  Hit me up on PM if you want it.

[hcry4]

IF you are concerned about ping and noise and such get the $550 Silent version.  The Topre pings a bit so that is something else to be concerned about.  A bit.

Type-S "pings"/rings about the same as the regular one.

[itlnstln]

Type-S "pings"/rings about the same as the regular one.

Well, that completely invalidates the extra $200.  Fail.

[hcry4]

That's surprising.  I would have thought the foam ring would dampen the upSnap!

They said 30% or something. It's quieter, yes.

[pitashen]

ping* pinG* ppipipiping*  OMG!! my ears, my ears!!

[keyboardlover]

On keyboards with the REAL ringing issue, you can hear it in the next room.

[hcry4]

He should close this thread, buy a Topre, then open a new one lauding his new purchase and those who helped him decide.

[calavera]

Stop visiting GH so you'll loose interest in keyboards = saves you tons of money.

[insilica]

Dear OP.  Have I mentioned the Topre fart?

oh man seriously - "Topre fart" - ripster I have to say I really enjoy reading some of your posts... I don't think this place would be the same without you

[Urglifast]

I should have called it the Topre Whoopie Cushion.

Comes from the air escaping these channels.
(Attachment Link) 27087[/ATTACH]

or the Topueef

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

Possible side-effects of Topre may include:

• Increased risk of obesity due to lack of exercise stemming from a newfound love of typing
• Skepticism and/or jealousy from friends, family, significant others
• 30% higher risk of becoming addicted to World of Warcraft
• giddiness
• Chronic Wallet Fatigue
• Buyer's remorse

In most side-effects were mild. Do not take Topre if you are nursing, pregnant or may become pregnant.

[Lolcakes]

The "sticking" issue, and the misaligned key caps seem pretty dreadful... I wouldn't like any of that. If i bought it from the US it would be such a major hassle to RMA or resolve things from a distance... This is why I would prefer to buy from the keyboardco, they seem nice and local (If i do buy,but its best that I dont).

http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=794  This is the only one in white that I can get from these people, at the moment at least. I suppose the  Realforce 86U suffers from the same problems anyways.

Thanks for the responses guys. Ripster in particular does a good job in making me like the idea of a topre board less, which might end up being a healthy thing for my wallet.

I dont like the feel of the rubber dome keyboards... but again before my Filco with Blues ive had only £10 keyboards - they feel so slow when pressing down and when they are supposed to snap back into position after release. I am trying to find out how different the topres are compared to my previous RD boards - my guess is very different but still confusion is taking over.

As for gaming - im already addicted to SC2 and have 100% chance of getting addicted to Diablo 3 when it is released I have no idea how SC  will feel on the Realforce... i dont know how fast keys snap back into position.

An idea -

If somebody has a high speed camera and a topre and a cherry board maybe they could record and determine how long it takes for those different switches to snap back into position after being released. I like how springy the cherry's feel, the faster they spring back the better (-:

I wonder how many HHKB type S do i have to NOT buy in order to be able to buy a high speed camera?

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

In fairness to Topre switches using the same technology as rubber dome keyboards, it is a bit like comparing a Ferrari to a Pinto: they both run on four wheels and burn gasoline, but that's where the similarities end.

[hybridsoul5]

Haven't read the rest of the thread so I don't know if this has already been stated...


I use a Realforce 86UB for work and the topre switches are so light after the activation point that it's really hard not to bottom out. This plus the combination of a metal plate mount leads to painful fingertip banging as the key bottoms out if you aren't light enough on it.

[jpc]

I like my Realforce 86U, but I like cherry browns a bit more. I bet the cherries last longer.

[sordna]

Did I mention yet you can buy 5 Rosewill RK-9000s for one HHKB-S?

Or 3 very diverse keyboards: A Kinesis Advantage, a Filco, and a Poker.

HHKB == way WAY overpriced, and it has just about the same features as the Poker. If it were programmable/etc it would be much more desireable, but as it stands, I'd much rather have a Kinesis Advantage, a Poker, and a Filco or an IBM SSK for the price of one HHKB-S.

[jpc]

Or a clean used Realforce 86U, a Contour Design RollerMouse Pro, a Wang 724 and a couple of PS/2-to-USB adapters. Which is like half my stash.

[pitashen]

Seriously, just man up and save some bucks if you are in any sort of doubt. The economy is bad enough already. Learn to save money. kid.

[nhwhaup]

I really go back and forth on my favorites - Realforce 87U Silent, Poker with Reds (broke my first one - now waiting on a replacement to arrive) and my Filco with reds.

I would love to have a silent HHKB but the price is just ridiculous and I would totally miss the arrow keys. Even as much as I love my Poker, going back and forth to the embedded arrows is a bit of a pain.

JPC - glad to see you still like the 86U.

[himynameisbunny]

Spacebar w/ shift, my friend.

My God, how did I not know about that - Ctrl + Space as well!

While I'm still sitting at work waiting for my damn SGS2 to copy crap over to it...

I've been eyeing off a HHKB for a couple of days now, and to be honest this thread hasn't given me much information to swing me either way.

Some of you have said they feel like springy domes, some of you have said they are far smoother than that.

What is in my head is that I want a very very smooth switch to type on. The only time I've used a good rubber dome lately is when I went over to my friends place on Tuesday - old Logitech dome. It was okay I suppose, had a good snap to it, but really if that's what Topres are like I believe i'm better off looking elsewhere.

Really, I can't justify the price - I could afford it I guess, but I just can't see that it's what I'm looking for.

But the fact that Pokers are available in Reds gives me some sort of thought. I'm thinking that maybe that those might be what I'm looking for.

So what do people think of Reds versus the Topres?

[duncan]

So what do people think of Reds versus the Topres?

My favourite boards is my Filco Blue so that needs to be taken into account. If noise is not a problem then the tactile and audible feedback is what I find the most satisfying when I really want to get some work done. That speeding train click-clack tells me work is happening and gives me a sense of 'getting things done'. Take that into account.

My Poker with reds and o-ring mod is more fun to type on and to play with. The layers are fun (if sometimes slightly difficult to get my fingers working on - if I used the Poker as my main board then I reckon I'd get the muscle memory but it is not natural and not likely to be given the usage pattern I expect for this board.) The Poker does feel a little fragile and I do expect that one day I'll go to use it and one or more keys will be dead or, more likely, the connection will have broken (see the relevant thread from nhwhaup). I just don't trust it as an all-day pounder at work.

The Realforce 86u is somehow more 'grown up' and more boring but massively better built and solid. The RF is my board for work where I was sick of the complaints about the noise complaints for Filco Blues and Browns. The people who complain about such things are often very experienced whiners and whingers so the bosses cave in to them just to make the tedious little twit go away. So the Topre is my all-day pounder because I have come to trust it and it is definitely nicely built (it would want to be for 2.5 times the price of a Poker.

I would love to try a plated board (Filco / Leopold) with Reds to see how that fits into the picture (how much of the Poker stuff is due to PCB mounting?). Hard to find one when in a buying mood (after all I don't need another board).

But for my workplace the RF is the right option for right now.

The comments about the Topres being like a rubber dome are kind of true but also misleading. Perhaps an exceptional RD board might be 70-80% of a Topre for the first couple of months but then you are likely to start feeling the RD show signs of getting tired and not being quite what it was. At that point the Topre is just starting to come into it's stride. The differences in material and craft applied to the RF mean that even if the technology is somewhat similar the results in use are not.

I would join with others here. Buy yourself a Topre and give it a decent tryout. If you really don't see the benefit you should be able to sell it on with the difference being in the range of $50 bucks. It's not a huge gamble if you are truly interested in being forever after being able to happily buy $100 Leos or similar in sure knowledge that, for you, a $250-300 Topre is not the right answer. Don't die wondering.