ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.

[Dox]

I started designing a "OTD class" split ergo keyboard this weekend based on the key64 and I was thinking that maybe we could make it possible if there was some people interested.

The design is not final and there is still a lot of work to be done but here is where I am.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 28310[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 28306[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 28307[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 28308[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 28309[/ATTACH]

Current design (based on feedback and comments) still not final:

THE LAYOUT PRESENTED IS NOT FINAL. THE CONTROLLER WILL BE PROGRAMMABLE.

The price will be high ±400$ (highly depending on how many we are).

What would be included:
Full CNC anodized aluminium case and plate,
PCB.

What may be included or self-served:
Switches,
Keycaps,
Diodes,
Cable,
Teensy,
Assembly

Leave your interest and comment below.

[dorkvader]

Now available via Massdrop!

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox

(You will need to make an account with them)

Updated with list:

Interest collected via Geekhack:

Code: [Select]

01. Dox...................2. (The creator himself!)
02. DorkVader.............1. (Very likely)
03. iWuzHere..............1p (under $150-200)
04. demik.................1? (Looks Awesome, worried about soldering)
05. Litster...............1. (Definitely interested)
06. Sordna................1-2(Looks GREAT!) (will save 200 without case)
07. RColinTaylor..........1p (if under $300)
08. Mazora................1? (dependent on layout)
09. Input Nirvana.........1? (Possible Interest)
10. TheSoulHunter.........1p ($300 range)
11. Christoffer.Braathen..1. (ALL IN!!!)
12. Bretrex...............1. (Pcb only)
13. Karacho...............1. (I want one)
14. Quarzac...............1p (Interested, but worried about cost)
15. REVENGE...............1. (Fantastic Project)(definitely want one now)
16. Sleuth................1p (will see about cash)
17.
18. Ascaii................1. (very interested; Heavy Metal only)
19. Laffindude............1p (under $300) (still in this)
20. Chef..................2.
21. eagleeye..............1P (under $300, depending on design)
22. cyclonechuah..........1P (I'm interested if it's under $300.)
23. Gilgam................1
24.
25. Gfresh404.............1P (maybe around $200)
26. inaneframe............3+. (Currently looking to sell his car) ("Dox, you're beautiful")
27. funkymeeba............1P (under $350 or so) (or more!)
28. Hoggy.................1. (This is exactly what he needs!)
29. mharrison.............1. (One if by trackpoint)
30. wrtcedar..............1P (If under ~$300+)
31.
32. fim...................1. (Does not want to solder)
33. obra..................1. (interested in soldering service)
34. bonega................1. (Soldered & ship to sweden, under 300)
35. richie................1. (under $400& assembled)
36. parak.................1? (Possible)
37. Ironman31.............1. (If the keys come with it)
38. mioytan...............1P (under 300)
39. boli..................1-2($400)
40. Icarium...............1P ($400)
41. moogatronic...........1P (under $400)
42. dzd...................1. (Wants one too!)
43. itlnstln..............1. (would be in for one)
44. heuristicist..........2P ($500 for all parts. $600 tops.)
45. REVENGE...............1+ (Definately interested)
46. Zanth.................1. (I would be in for one)
47. Tafryn................1P (around $300)
48. Thirdkind.............2. (definitely be in for 2)
49. Sicyo.................1. (Would certainly be interested)
50. pjpettis..............1? (I'm about 95% in for one.)
51. ksweber...............1. (I am also interested in getting one)
52. jedcred...............1. (Interested up to the shoulder with this design)
53. gilgam................1. ("i want one of this" Who doesn't?)
54. Salash................1. (Standard message of interest)
55. minnus................1. (Please add me to the interest list as well)
56. ekw808................1p (under 200)
57. ic07..................4P*(2-4 pcb and 0-2 cases, depending on price)
58. Laggy-gaga............1p (around 200)
59. dirge.................2. (One put down [on] the list)
60. ped...................1p (Not much over 400 :D )
61. Kisakuku..............1.
62. seferphier............1p (200-250)
63. Mycroftxxx............1p (depends on material)
64. speedkills............1p (500, assembeld)
65. molto.................1p (50, PCB only)
66. Jesuswasazombie.......1p (Awesome if under 200)
67. Inf3rn0_44............1p (Interested under 300)
68. geekabit..............1p (Interested under 200)
69. Necroleachate.........1p (Dreams will be fulfilled if under 200)
70. jblack801.............1p (Definately in for $250)
71. tradet................1p (Maybe under 200 tempts him)
72. beguiledfoil..........1p (under 400 and blank)
73. itunesacc.............1p (around 200)
74. rburrows..............1p (around 400 soldered)
75. tjweir................1p (interest at 300)
76. OrangeJewce...........1-2(400 for all, assembled)
77. Spharx................1p (miraculously 200)
78. Sherryton.............1. (Dork put him down)
79. bjarven...............1. (Interest Looks Great!)
80. Whiterice.............1p (I'm in. 400.)
81. Autolyze..............1. (totally interested)
82. didjamatic............1-3(Depends on final price)
83. merijn................1p (Starving Student Budget)
84. mSSM..................1-2(well interested)
85. effh..................2. (PCB for amazing firmware/hacking ability)
86. Salisen...............1p (interested in "300")
87. Zifle.................1. (Timeline and Interest Check.)
88. forcefollow...........2-3(hopes it will be produced soon)
89. Surger................1-2(Most definately interested, what about f# keys?)
90. Djuzuh................1p (might be interested, depending on price)
91. ashleydev.............1. (Can I put in an order?)
92. bisl..................3. (kinesis/ergoDOX club)
93. braaaiiins............1P (Pcb only if under 100)
94. SubGothius............1P ($500 budget.)
95. Hashbaz...............1. (Added to list.)
96. localredhead..........1. (Count me in!)
97. jochu.................1-2(Consider me interested)
98. prdlm2009.............1. (may be interested)
99. Tsangan...............1. (interested only after seeing the prototype working)
100.Mkawa.................1. (in to help as usual)
101.StaCT13...............1p (under $500 for everything, assembled)
102.The_Beast.............1. (Always interested in a pcb)
103.docomoz...............1. ("I'm in. No matter what the cost")
104.kta...................1p ($500 range, at least noe set)
105.bebuxe................1. (No matter what the cost!)
106.gdaian................1. (Ergodox relieves frustration)

Removed interest:
31. Architect.............1-3. (one for sure. two more possible)

From DT:

Code: [Select]

01. Webwit................1. (I'm in for one if it comes to a group buy.)
02. jakobcreutzfeldt......1. (Too "mad" to be marked yet)
03. xbb...................1. (Thanks added to list)
04. jcrouse...............1. ("I want one list")
05. pingbat...............1. (utron dreams)
06. forcefollow...........1. (one to replace his drool-damaged HHKB
07. wiredPANDA............1. (Watches it develop)
08. domoaligato...........1-2(from following this thread)
09. PrinsValium...........3. (See #12 on GH. Needs a couple for "Reference")
10. HzFaq.................1. (Really startnig to look awesome)
11. bjarven...............1. (Waiting on this or kinesis
12. yobfish...............1. (Joined the forum to be added!)
13. nathanak21............1P (Without breaknig the bank)
14. mintberryminuscrunch..1. (PCB Only)
15. Findecanor............1. (all but case)
16. DanGWanG..............1. (In for one!)
17. AKIMbO................1. (Looks Amazing)
18. ondast................1. (Interested in full version)
19. justcallmecrash.......1-2(Again, depending on the costs. If it really is $30 ->2)
20. regak.................1-2(Got his name down.)
21. Possum................1. (Who wouldn't want one?)
22. Damorgue..............1.
23. yobfish...............1
24. maxrunner.............1p (200-250)
25. nodnerb...............1  (In for one pair)
26. Jim66.................1. (Moved From GH)(will be in for one)
27. Kurrk.................1P (under the magic $300)
28. WarlockD..............1. (Exactly what He's been looking for)
29. maxrunner.............1. (he's interested in any way!)
30. Aleksander............1. (He's on the list now, that's an excuse to get one)
31. Fossala...............1. (on the list now)
32. plaset36..............1. (interested in one)
33. gilsoriano............1. (One whole)
34. stevedreams...........1. (Has been counted)
35. off...................1? (really starting tolook great)
36. bill..................1. (case and PCB's)
37. TheProfosist..........1. (somewhat interested)
38. SubGothius............2. (two PCB's and more case ideas)
39. mikelanding...........1. (Put me 1 in)
40. Ian S.................1? (Subscribed)
41. judascleric...........1? (ErgoDOX is an awesome project)
42. sc3...................1. (In for 1 set of PCB's and maybe a case)
43. lowkey144.............1. (added to this list)
44. trygg.................1-2(if the price is right)
45. AloisiusFauxly........1. (At least PCB to dip in Canadian Syrup)

I like to have a little thing about what the poster had to say about it, so I can better gauge interest and prices, feel free to tell me if you want it removed, or updated.

Here is a list of people interested in receiving an assembled keyboard.

Code: [Select]

wiredPANDA
Hoggy
Fim
Obra
Demik?
bonega
Richie
Boli (1-2)
Icarium
itlnstln (assembled up to the keycaps in cherry brown)
Mazora ?
Zanth (assembled up to the keycaps reds or browns)
Thirdkind (natural Al, assembled, 'Otaku', Reds)
Sicyo (natural Al assembled)
speedkills
rburrows (would probably be okay with a kit)
OrangeJewce (1-2)
Surger
Quarzac
yobfish
domoaligato
gilsoriano
mikelanding
jochu
StaCT13


I am considering a soldering service: if someone else wants to do this, I'll add their info, but if no-one else wants to, I might do it. Anything to help the project!

List of people offering some sort of soldering/assembly service

Code: [Select]

The Profosist (USA)
Dork Vader (USA)
Geekabit (EU)
Dirge (UK)
localredhead (?)
(I am sure there will be others when the time comes)

If you're interested, PM me or post in this topic.
Please also tell me if I missed you, or have any mistakes.

[Dox]

It have a slope if you look at the side picture but it was easier to only model some flat spherical keycaps. Final keycap shape is not determined yet and my be left to the user.

Yes the headers are for connecting the 2 halves.

[iWuzHere]

That looks pretty sweet, though price is quite high

[demik]

that looks awesome

[litster]

I am interested definitely.  How many do we need to get to the $400 range?

[Dox]

I was thinking something between 5 and 10 but the more the better.

[litster]

That's not a very high number to make.  We should be able to get at least 5.  Input Nirvana should be getting at least 2!    More demand if we include the Korean community.

What kind of keycaps would fit?  Geninue double shot Cherry keycaps?  Any suggestions on the default layout?

[demik]

since i dont know how to solder.. or actually build a keyboard.. would i be screwed in putting it together? im interested.

[litster]

It isn't very hard at all.  I just taught a 11-year-old to solder this last weekend.  There are a lot of youtube videos that teach you how to solder.  Take a look at them.  If you think you can do it, go to Radio Shack to buy a $10 kit to give it a try.  If you can solder that kit, you should be able to solder switches and diodes onto the circuit board.

[demik]

i was actually going to try to solder this weekend lol. i want to make a switch box for a CST trackball, and i was going to try it on that since i figured it wouldn't be too expensive if i messed it up.

[alaricljs]

The hard part of soldering is not cooking components.  The components on a KB are really quite heat tolerant.  80 some odd switches and just as many diodes would be plenty of training in order to not cook the controller.  Since Dox is specifying a teensy you don't even solder the controller, just board to board connections.

[Dox]

That's not a very high number to make.  We should be able to get at least 5.  Input Nirvana should be getting at least 2!    More demand if we include the Korean community.

What kind of keycaps would fit?  Geninue double shot Cherry keycaps?  Any suggestions on the default layout?

Yeah I'll probably take 2 for myself too so we are already at 5! Genuine cherry keycaps will fit just fine except for the larger keys.

For the layout I was going for something similar the original key64 but in qwerty. This will be completely re-programmable.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 28376[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 28377[/ATTACH]

[Findecanor]

Why flat?

I could elaborate a bit on this, but I'll summarize: curved is hard.

[alaricljs]

And curved PCBs are friggin expensive.

[sordna]

Looks GREAT !
Curving is a bit overrated, sometimes I think my kinesis is a bit too curved. What I really want is a split design so I could build cardboard bases and tilt the 2 sides anyway I want, all the way up to vertical, which I can't do with the fixed Kinesis, but I can definately do with what you are presenting here!

It would be a nice improvement if you can do 4 thumbkeys per side instead of 2. (The Kinesis Advantage has 6, and even there I find myself wishing for more). Anyway, the extra thumbkeys will allow you to have an Fn key in each side, which will make it far easier to type things like ) and ".  A trackpoint would be awesome too.

[litster]

Show Image

Show Image

Your keymaps don't match the keycap layout on the picture.  On the picture, the left side, top row has one 2x width key on the left and six 1x width keys.  The bottom row is also missing a 1x width key.

[Lanx]

looks great! an aluminum kinesis! i have comments if you want to hear them... they might sound negative tho, so i don't want to sound like i'm thread crapping.

[Dox]

Thanks sordna, I'll look at what I can do to add some more thumb buttons.

Your keymaps don't match the keycap layout on the picture.  On the picture, the left side, top row has one 2x width key on the left and six 1x width keys.  The bottom row is also missing a 1x width key.

I know, the layout pictures are from the key64. I need to work on the correct one for this iteration.

looks great! an aluminum kinesis! i have comments if you want to hear them... they might sound negative tho, so i don't want to sound like i'm thread crapping.

I'm want to hear your comments. That's the purpose of this thread.

[Mazora]

Depending on the layout, I would be interested. By the way, it looks amazing.

[litster]

I know, the layout pictures are from the key64. I need to work on the correct one for this iteration.

No problem, I will make one with my preference and post it here.

[litster]

Thanks sordna, I'll look at what I can do to add some more thumb buttons.

Is it possible to make the two large outermost thumb keys into 2 separate keys each?

[Lanx]

Is it possible to make the two large outermost thumb keys into 2 separate keys each?

i wouldn't recommend it, as in 2 seperate buttons up and down? you kinda want a longer 1.25 key to (rest) your thumb on.

i'd recommend something like this
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/freestyle-vip-features.htm
not all those features, but instead of how ppl put the feet/tabs that make a keyboard slope on an incline, do that to the two boards and have 4 small feet/tabs(2 per side) so that you can slope it inwards.
like sordna, i'd recommend following kinesis thumb layout more than the c64, that is to have the 6 buttons on the thumb area, rather having extended buttons past towards the del/tab/numlk/enter area.

if you "force" yourself to learn to use enter/backspace with the thumbs, these aren't needed.

i've mocked the layout (since i actually had pcb's laying around) and for a 5 10' guy, the thumbs are really close, i think they need to be out more.

imo and prolly sordna has more experience, the spherical keycaps on a kinesis homerow are awesome, while the rest of the keycaps are regular cylindrical. I believe this is the best arrangement because the spherical will allow you find "home row" easily while moving towards the other keys freely with a cylindrical shape.  

I guess f-keys are done by some keylock?

[litster]

Here is my preferred layout.  The Fn layer is not done yet.  But for regular layout is very close to what i want given the fewer number of keys.  I use the left Ctrl, Shift, ESC, and Tab all the time (but not Capslock), and I much prefer Tab, BackSpace, Enter, and right Shift at where they normally are.  In general I prefer a layout that is as close to  regular ANSI layout as possible.  

[alaricljs]

So litster... How do you get Win-L ?  Only common combo I see getting blocked so far...

[litster]

You mean the left Windows key?

Ah, I see what you mean.  You mean the Windows keys on the Fn layer.  Yeah, they don't make any sense on the Fn layer.  There is already a Windows key on the left side, so that should be good.

[Input Nirvana]

Hats off! Love it! I see the Key64 influence. My input: I would strongly suggest a serious consideration for an integrated pointing device. I've had my split Kinesis (see signature link) and I can tell you from over 6 months experience, that once you split, separate, incline, ergo layout, ergo key position, and macro, that moving your hand off the home row for cursor pointing becomes absolutely ridiculous. And that's the polite way of expressing the emotion. I have an Apple Mighty Mouse on the left and an IBM trackpoint on the right. I like touch pads and some trackballs, but again, leaving the home row becomes a cumbersome chore. As a matter of fact, the integrated pointing device really started the split Kinesis project.

Regarding keywell curvature: I may not understand Sordnas view of the Kinesis wells being too curved, but then again, I rest my hands on the Kinesis palm pads. My hands are a mens large, so maybe that has something to do with it? I have a Kinesis Freestyle, and prefer the curved keywells, but the Freestyle is not a matrix layout nor does it have the columns height adjusted. I have not used anything like this particular configuration.

I didn't notice, but is there any work on an awesome programmable controller?

I have possible interest

NOTE:
I've recently had some extreme changes in my life that have dramatically shifted my time and priorities. I was about to administer the wood key cap buy, try and lead the custom controller project, and do some in-depth reviews with awesome pics of my Datahand, Alphagrip, Kinesis, and fully update and document the split Kinesis project. I wanted to build up these areas for Geekhack since GH has done so much for me. I apologize to anyone that has been waiting for me to perform on various topics, as I'm not certain when I will be able to continue.

P.S.
Wood key caps will probably go through WASD Keyboards soon.

[TheSoulhunter]

Id get one if its in the 300 USD range...

[cactux]

why not just taking baby steps first like.
Reuse an ergonomic shell like the goldtouch board (not expensive) and add a custom PCB + internal logic + switches.

[Dox]

i wouldn't recommend it, as in 2 seperate buttons up and down? you kinda want a longer 1.25 key to (rest) your thumb on.

i'd recommend something like this
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/freestyle-vip-features.htm
not all those features, but instead of how ppl put the feet/tabs that make a keyboard slope on an incline, do that to the two boards and have 4 small feet/tabs(2 per side) so that you can slope it inwards.
like sordna, i'd recommend following kinesis thumb layout more than the c64, that is to have the 6 buttons on the thumb area, rather having extended buttons past towards the del/tab/numlk/enter area.

if you "force" yourself to learn to use enter/backspace with the thumbs, these aren't needed.

i've mocked the layout (since i actually had pcb's laying around) and for a 5 10' guy, the thumbs are really close, i think they need to be out more.

imo and prolly sordna has more experience, the spherical keycaps on a kinesis homerow are awesome, while the rest of the keycaps are regular cylindrical. I believe this is the best arrangement because the spherical will allow you find "home row" easily while moving towards the other keys freely with a cylindrical shape.  

I guess f-keys are done by some keylock?

Thanks for the input! I will try to work on the thumb area in general this week and post some new render when it's done. As for the keycaps, I really have no plan for this yet but I like the idea of the spherical home row only.

Hats off! Love it! I see the Key64 influence. My input: I would strongly suggest a serious consideration for an integrated pointing device. I've had my split Kinesis (see signature link) and I can tell you from over 6 months experience, that once you split, separate, incline, ergo layout, ergo key position, and macro, that moving your hand off the home row for cursor pointing becomes absolutely ridiculous. And that's the polite way of expressing the emotion. I have an Apple Mighty Mouse on the left and an IBM trackpoint on the right. I like touch pads and some trackballs, but again, leaving the home row becomes a cumbersome chore. As a matter of fact, the integrated pointing device really started the split Kinesis project.

Regarding keywell curvature: I may not understand Sordnas view of the Kinesis wells being too curved, but then again, I rest my hands on the Kinesis palm pads. My hands are a mens large, so maybe that has something to do with it? I have a Kinesis Freestyle, and prefer the curved keywells, but the Freestyle is not a matrix layout nor does it have the columns height adjusted. I have not used anything like this particular configuration.

I didn't notice, but is there any work on an awesome programmable controller?

I have possible interest

NOTE:
I've recently had some extreme changes in my life that have dramatically shifted my time and priorities. I was about to administer the wood key cap buy, try and lead the custom controller project, and do some in-depth reviews with awesome pics of my Datahand, Alphagrip, Kinesis, and fully update and document the split Kinesis project. I wanted to build up these areas for Geekhack since GH has done so much for me. I apologize to anyone that has been waiting for me to perform on various topics, as I'm not certain when I will be able to continue.

P.S.
Wood key caps will probably go through WASD Keyboards soon.

Thanks input nirvana, I will seriously consider an integrated trackpoint in the design.  I got to say that I spent a lot of time looking at that kinesis wiki.

That's some good news for the wood keycaps!

[Dox]

Id get one if its in the 300 USD range...

Good to know, thanks!

why not just taking baby steps first like.
Reuse an ergonomic shell like the goldtouch board (not expensive) and add a custom PCB + internal logic + switches.

Because I can, and the only way to get things the way I want them is to build it myself (my first and only cherry based boards are my doxkb).

[christoffer.braathen]

I'm ALL IN!!!

Looks great, and the idea of splitting the two parts completely is great.
Sing me up for one.

Best Regards
Christoffer Braathen
Oslo, Norway

[Lanx]

Regarding keywell curvature: I may not understand Sordnas view of the Kinesis wells being too curved
NOTE:
 Kinesis, and fully update and document the split Kinesis project.

So far i'm in love with the depth and curve of the kinesis keywells (they could be angled/sloped towards the middle more i think many of the kinesis users agree on this).
yea there's zero kinesis hacking/modding atm, imma try to fill the gap with that.

[Dox]

I reworked the thumb area a bit. Tell me what you think.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 28744[/ATTACH]

[litster]

That is nice!  More placement options.

[bretrex]

I'd throw in for just the pcbs. It shouldn't be difficult to lay out the circuit board to be functional mirrored, allowing you to use the same board for both sides, helping cut the per-board cost. The full metal enclosure seems a bit rich for my blood, but would make an amazingly solid input device for those who can afford it.

[Dox]

I'd throw in for just the pcbs. It shouldn't be difficult to lay out the circuit board to be functional mirrored, allowing you to use the same board for both sides, helping cut the per-board cost. The full metal enclosure seems a bit rich for my blood, but would make an amazingly solid input device for those who can afford it.

The pcbs wont be symmetrical as the controller is on one half and the columns and rows of the other half have to be routed to the other side. The mounting plate will be symmetrical.

[calavera]

Do you have a plan view (top view) pic of the design?

[Findecanor]

I reworked the thumb area a bit. Tell me what you think.
(Attachment Link) 28744[/ATTACH]

That looks like the thumb-key configuration that the Kinesis has. I find that on my Kinesis, I can not reach for the smaller thumb keys easily, and I wish that there was instead a key in-between the thumb keys and the main group. For me, the problem is mostly with the "Alt" keys, which is the topmost thumb key in each of the Kinesis' thumb groups.

[dorkvader]

The pcbs wont be symmetrical as the controller is on one half and the columns and rows of the other half have to be routed to the other side. The mounting plate will be symmetrical.

You could just leave the controller area blank on one of the boards, but I don't think this will work because I don't think the cherry switch is symmetrical.

[Dox]

Do you have a plan view (top view) pic of the design?

Here we go:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 28763[/ATTACH]

That looks like the thumb-key configuration that the Kinesis has. I find that on my Kinesis, I can not reach for the smaller thumb keys easily, and I wish that there was instead a key in-between the thumb keys and the main group. For me, the problem is mostly with the "Alt" keys, which is the topmost thumb key in each of the Kinesis' thumb groups.

Having them on the same level as the other keys will probably help with the reach and you still have 2 extra buttons at the "interior" of each hand.

You could just leave the controller area blank on one of the boards, but I don't think this will work because I don't think the cherry switch is symmetrical.

Not really, leaving the controller area empty on one side side and using a symmetrical pcb would simply route the signals of one half to the columns/rows of the other one and not to the controller. And as you said, cherry switches aren't symmetrical.

[Karacho]

In my opinion and in result of my own tests, two buttons for the thumbs are best.
Additional thumbbuttons are not good to reach.
I want one to
It should be reprogramable, right?

[Quarzac]

I won't pledge definite interest, but when would you be ordering all this? I like the idea, but I don't know if I could afford it. If it wasn't for a good long while, I'd have to start saving now, and maybe I could do it. It would be good if only to force me to type correctly.

[Dox]

I dont know, I still have a lot of work to do on the design and I'll have to save some cash too. I was thinking that maybe in 2-3 months would be good.

[Quarzac]

Hmm... If I get a job, that could work. I'll keep up with this, and closer to the trigger date I'll have a definitive answer.

[sordna]

In my opinion and in result of my own tests, two buttons for the thumbs are best.
Additional thumbbuttons are not good to reach.

Well, being a Kinesis user I appreciate the additional thumbkeys. Of course the smaller keys are a bit harder to reach than the larger ones, that is inevitable. But since this is programmable, you would put slightly less frequently used keys there. We do want the extra keys, however, definitely... I like to have 2 controls, 2 alts, 2 win keys, and 2 Fn (2nd layer keys) keys so I can always avoid one-hand combos which are bad for rsi/carpal tunnel issues. The extra thumb keys allow doing 2-handed combos all the time; which is ergonomically superior.

[dorkvader]

I dont know, I still have a lot of work to do on the design and I'll have to save some cash too. I was thinking that maybe in 2-3 months would be good.

I'll start saving now, too.

[litster]

With the new keys, I think I got everything on the first layer except F1-F12 and PrintScreen, Scroll Lock, And Pause/Break.  I keep most of the modifiers in the usual location as they are how I prefer :-).

[REVENGE]

Fantastic project Dox! Hope you guys are able to put this into production!

[slueth]

I'm interested but we will see about cash lol.. Time to get a work working.