01. Dox...................2. (The creator himself!)
02. DorkVader.............1. (Very likely)
03. iWuzHere..............1p (under $150-200)
04. demik.................1? (Looks Awesome, worried about soldering)
05. Litster...............1. (Definitely interested)
06. Sordna................1-2(Looks GREAT!) (will save 200 without case)
07. RColinTaylor..........1p (if under $300)
08. Mazora................1? (dependent on layout)
09. Input Nirvana.........1? (Possible Interest)
10. TheSoulHunter.........1p ($300 range)
11. Christoffer.Braathen..1. (ALL IN!!!)
12. Bretrex...............1. (Pcb only)
13. Karacho...............1. (I want one)
14. Quarzac...............1p (Interested, but worried about cost)
15. REVENGE...............1. (Fantastic Project)(definitely want one now)
16. Sleuth................1p (will see about cash)
17.
18. Ascaii................1. (very interested; Heavy Metal only)
19. Laffindude............1p (under $300) (still in this)
20. Chef..................2.
21. eagleeye..............1P (under $300, depending on design)
22. cyclonechuah..........1P (I'm interested if it's under $300.)
23. Gilgam................1
24.
25. Gfresh404.............1P (maybe around $200)
26. inaneframe............3+. (Currently looking to sell his car) ("Dox, you're beautiful")
27. funkymeeba............1P (under $350 or so) (or more!)
28. Hoggy.................1. (This is exactly what he needs!)
29. mharrison.............1. (One if by trackpoint)
30. wrtcedar..............1P (If under ~$300+)
31.
32. fim...................1. (Does not want to solder)
33. obra..................1. (interested in soldering service)
34. bonega................1. (Soldered & ship to sweden, under 300)
35. richie................1. (under $400& assembled)
36. parak.................1? (Possible)
37. Ironman31.............1. (If the keys come with it)
38. mioytan...............1P (under 300)
39. boli..................1-2($400)
40. Icarium...............1P ($400)
41. moogatronic...........1P (under $400)
42. dzd...................1. (Wants one too!)
43. itlnstln..............1. (would be in for one)
44. heuristicist..........2P ($500 for all parts. $600 tops.)
45. REVENGE...............1+ (Definately interested)
46. Zanth.................1. (I would be in for one)
47. Tafryn................1P (around $300)
48. Thirdkind.............2. (definitely be in for 2)
49. Sicyo.................1. (Would certainly be interested)
50. pjpettis..............1? (I'm about 95% in for one.)
51. ksweber...............1. (I am also interested in getting one)
52. jedcred...............1. (Interested up to the shoulder with this design)
53. gilgam................1. ("i want one of this" Who doesn't?)
54. Salash................1. (Standard message of interest)
55. minnus................1. (Please add me to the interest list as well)
56. ekw808................1p (under 200)
57. ic07..................4P*(2-4 pcb and 0-2 cases, depending on price)
58. Laggy-gaga............1p (around 200)
59. dirge.................2. (One put down [on] the list)
60. ped...................1p (Not much over 400 :D )
61. Kisakuku..............1.
62. seferphier............1p (200-250)
63. Mycroftxxx............1p (depends on material)
64. speedkills............1p (500, assembeld)
65. molto.................1p (50, PCB only)
66. Jesuswasazombie.......1p (Awesome if under 200)
67. Inf3rn0_44............1p (Interested under 300)
68. geekabit..............1p (Interested under 200)
69. Necroleachate.........1p (Dreams will be fulfilled if under 200)
70. jblack801.............1p (Definately in for $250)
71. tradet................1p (Maybe under 200 tempts him)
72. beguiledfoil..........1p (under 400 and blank)
73. itunesacc.............1p (around 200)
74. rburrows..............1p (around 400 soldered)
75. tjweir................1p (interest at 300)
76. OrangeJewce...........1-2(400 for all, assembled)
77. Spharx................1p (miraculously 200)
78. Sherryton.............1. (Dork put him down)
79. bjarven...............1. (Interest Looks Great!)
80. Whiterice.............1p (I'm in. 400.)
81. Autolyze..............1. (totally interested)
82. didjamatic............1-3(Depends on final price)
83. merijn................1p (Starving Student Budget)
84. mSSM..................1-2(well interested)
85. effh..................2. (PCB for amazing firmware/hacking ability)
86. Salisen...............1p (interested in "300")
87. Zifle.................1. (Timeline and Interest Check.)
88. forcefollow...........2-3(hopes it will be produced soon)
89. Surger................1-2(Most definately interested, what about f# keys?)
90. Djuzuh................1p (might be interested, depending on price)
91. ashleydev.............1. (Can I put in an order?)
92. bisl..................3. (kinesis/ergoDOX club)
93. braaaiiins............1P (Pcb only if under 100)
94. SubGothius............1P ($500 budget.)
95. Hashbaz...............1. (Added to list.)
96. localredhead..........1. (Count me in!)
97. jochu.................1-2(Consider me interested)
98. prdlm2009.............1. (may be interested)
99. Tsangan...............1. (interested only after seeing the prototype working)
100.Mkawa.................1. (in to help as usual)
101.StaCT13...............1p (under $500 for everything, assembled)
102.The_Beast.............1. (Always interested in a pcb)
103.docomoz...............1. ("I'm in. No matter what the cost")
104.kta...................1p ($500 range, at least noe set)
105.bebuxe................1. (No matter what the cost!)
106.gdaian................1. (Ergodox relieves frustration)
Removed interest:
31. Architect.............1-3. (one for sure. two more possible)
01. Webwit................1. (I'm in for one if it comes to a group buy.)
02. jakobcreutzfeldt......1. (Too "mad" to be marked yet)
03. xbb...................1. (Thanks added to list)
04. jcrouse...............1. ("I want one list")
05. pingbat...............1. (utron dreams)
06. forcefollow...........1. (one to replace his drool-damaged HHKB
07. wiredPANDA............1. (Watches it develop)
08. domoaligato...........1-2(from following this thread)
09. PrinsValium...........3. (See #12 on GH. Needs a couple for "Reference")
10. HzFaq.................1. (Really startnig to look awesome)
11. bjarven...............1. (Waiting on this or kinesis
12. yobfish...............1. (Joined the forum to be added!)
13. nathanak21............1P (Without breaknig the bank)
14. mintberryminuscrunch..1. (PCB Only)
15. Findecanor............1. (all but case)
16. DanGWanG..............1. (In for one!)
17. AKIMbO................1. (Looks Amazing)
18. ondast................1. (Interested in full version)
19. justcallmecrash.......1-2(Again, depending on the costs. If it really is $30 ->2)
20. regak.................1-2(Got his name down.)
21. Possum................1. (Who wouldn't want one?)
22. Damorgue..............1.
23. yobfish...............1
24. maxrunner.............1p (200-250)
25. nodnerb...............1 (In for one pair)
26. Jim66.................1. (Moved From GH)(will be in for one)
27. Kurrk.................1P (under the magic $300)
28. WarlockD..............1. (Exactly what He's been looking for)
29. maxrunner.............1. (he's interested in any way!)
30. Aleksander............1. (He's on the list now, that's an excuse to get one)
31. Fossala...............1. (on the list now)
32. plaset36..............1. (interested in one)
33. gilsoriano............1. (One whole)
34. stevedreams...........1. (Has been counted)
35. off...................1? (really starting tolook great)
36. bill..................1. (case and PCB's)
37. TheProfosist..........1. (somewhat interested)
38. SubGothius............2. (two PCB's and more case ideas)
39. mikelanding...........1. (Put me 1 in)
40. Ian S.................1? (Subscribed)
41. judascleric...........1? (ErgoDOX is an awesome project)
42. sc3...................1. (In for 1 set of PCB's and maybe a case)
43. lowkey144.............1. (added to this list)
44. trygg.................1-2(if the price is right)
45. AloisiusFauxly........1. (At least PCB to dip in Canadian Syrup)
wiredPANDA
Hoggy
Fim
Obra
Demik?
bonega
Richie
Boli (1-2)
Icarium
itlnstln (assembled up to the keycaps in cherry brown)
Mazora ?
Zanth (assembled up to the keycaps reds or browns)
Thirdkind (natural Al, assembled, 'Otaku', Reds)
Sicyo (natural Al assembled)
speedkills
rburrows (would probably be okay with a kit)
OrangeJewce (1-2)
Surger
Quarzac
yobfish
domoaligato
gilsoriano
mikelanding
jochu
StaCT13
The Profosist (USA)
Dork Vader (USA)
Geekabit (EU)
Dirge (UK)
localredhead (?)
(I am sure there will be others when the time comes)That's not a very high number to make. We should be able to get at least 5. Input Nirvana should be getting at least 2! ;) More demand if we include the Korean community.
What kind of keycaps would fit? Geninue double shot Cherry keycaps? Any suggestions on the default layout?
Why flat?
Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=28310&d=1318280038)Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=28376&d=1318342570)
Your keymaps don't match the keycap layout on the picture. On the picture, the left side, top row has one 2x width key on the left and six 1x width keys. The bottom row is also missing a 1x width key.I know, the layout pictures are from the key64. I need to work on the correct one for this iteration.
looks great! an aluminum kinesis! i have comments if you want to hear them... they might sound negative tho, so i don't want to sound like i'm thread crapping.I'm want to hear your comments. That's the purpose of this thread.
I know, the layout pictures are from the key64. I need to work on the correct one for this iteration.
Thanks sordna, I'll look at what I can do to add some more thumb buttons.
Is it possible to make the two large outermost thumb keys into 2 separate keys each?i wouldn't recommend it, as in 2 seperate buttons up and down? you kinda want a longer 1.25 key to (rest) your thumb on.
i wouldn't recommend it, as in 2 seperate buttons up and down? you kinda want a longer 1.25 key to (rest) your thumb on.Thanks for the input! I will try to work on the thumb area in general this week and post some new render when it's done. As for the keycaps, I really have no plan for this yet but I like the idea of the spherical home row only.
i'd recommend something like this
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/freestyle-vip-features.htm
not all those features, but instead of how ppl put the feet/tabs that make a keyboard slope on an incline, do that to the two boards and have 4 small feet/tabs(2 per side) so that you can slope it inwards.
like sordna, i'd recommend following kinesis thumb layout more than the c64, that is to have the 6 buttons on the thumb area, rather having extended buttons past towards the del/tab/numlk/enter area.
if you "force" yourself to learn to use enter/backspace with the thumbs, these aren't needed.
i've mocked the layout (since i actually had pcb's laying around) and for a 5 10' guy, the thumbs are really close, i think they need to be out more.
imo and prolly sordna has more experience, the spherical keycaps on a kinesis homerow are awesome, while the rest of the keycaps are regular cylindrical. I believe this is the best arrangement because the spherical will allow you find "home row" easily while moving towards the other keys freely with a cylindrical shape.
I guess f-keys are done by some keylock?
Hats off! Love it! I see the Key64 influence. My input: I would strongly suggest a serious consideration for an integrated pointing device. I've had my split Kinesis (see signature link) and I can tell you from over 6 months experience, that once you split, separate, incline, ergo layout, ergo key position, and macro, that moving your hand off the home row for cursor pointing becomes absolutely ridiculous. And that's the polite way of expressing the emotion. I have an Apple Mighty Mouse on the left and an IBM trackpoint on the right. I like touch pads and some trackballs, but again, leaving the home row becomes a cumbersome chore. As a matter of fact, the integrated pointing device really started the split Kinesis project.Thanks input nirvana, I will seriously consider an integrated trackpoint in the design. I got to say that I spent a lot of time looking at that kinesis wiki.
Regarding keywell curvature: I may not understand Sordnas view of the Kinesis wells being too curved, but then again, I rest my hands on the Kinesis palm pads. My hands are a mens large, so maybe that has something to do with it? I have a Kinesis Freestyle, and prefer the curved keywells, but the Freestyle is not a matrix layout nor does it have the columns height adjusted. I have not used anything like this particular configuration.
I didn't notice, but is there any work on an awesome programmable controller?
I have possible interest :)
NOTE:
I've recently had some extreme changes in my life that have dramatically shifted my time and priorities. I was about to administer the wood key cap buy, try and lead the custom controller project, and do some in-depth reviews with awesome pics of my Datahand, Alphagrip, Kinesis, and fully update and document the split Kinesis project. I wanted to build up these areas for Geekhack since GH has done so much for me. I apologize to anyone that has been waiting for me to perform on various topics, as I'm not certain when I will be able to continue.
P.S.
Wood key caps will probably go through WASD Keyboards soon.
Id get one if its in the 300 USD range...Good to know, thanks!
why not just taking baby steps first like.Because I can, and the only way to get things the way I want them is to build it myself (my first and only cherry based boards are my doxkb).
Reuse an ergonomic shell like the goldtouch board (not expensive) and add a custom PCB + internal logic + switches.
Regarding keywell curvature: I may not understand Sordnas view of the Kinesis wells being too curved
NOTE:
Kinesis, and fully update and document the split Kinesis project.
I'd throw in for just the pcbs. It shouldn't be difficult to lay out the circuit board to be functional mirrored, allowing you to use the same board for both sides, helping cut the per-board cost. The full metal enclosure seems a bit rich for my blood, but would make an amazingly solid input device for those who can afford it.The pcbs wont be symmetrical as the controller is on one half and the columns and rows of the other half have to be routed to the other side. The mounting plate will be symmetrical.
I reworked the thumb area a bit. Tell me what you think.
(Attachment) 28744[/ATTACH]
The pcbs wont be symmetrical as the controller is on one half and the columns and rows of the other half have to be routed to the other side. The mounting plate will be symmetrical.You could just leave the controller area blank on one of the boards, but I don't think this will work because I don't think the cherry switch is symmetrical.
Do you have a plan view (top view) pic of the design?
That looks like the thumb-key configuration that the Kinesis has. I find that on my Kinesis, I can not reach for the smaller thumb keys easily, and I wish that there was instead a key in-between the thumb keys and the main group. For me, the problem is mostly with the "Alt" keys, which is the topmost thumb key in each of the Kinesis' thumb groups.
You could just leave the controller area blank on one of the boards, but I don't think this will work because I don't think the cherry switch is symmetrical.
In my opinion and in result of my own tests, two buttons for the thumbs are best.
Additional thumbbuttons are not good to reach.
I dont know, I still have a lot of work to do on the design and I'll have to save some cash too. I was thinking that maybe in 2-3 months would be good.
I was wondering if you could simplify the design. Here's what I was thinking.Show Image(http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu23/calaveratf/keyboards/b.jpg)
Or something more drastic and "dynamic."Show Image(http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu23/calaveratf/keyboards/a.jpg)
(my first and only cherry based boards are my doxkb).
Thought you said you had a WYSE around here somewhere?I got a wyse on ebay for the keycaps and to try some different switches (black and getto red) for my doxkbs.
It seems like every day my interest in this project grows. If we can get this under $200: I'm in for sure, under $250: good chance, under $300: okay chance, depends on timing.
Given the interest garnered thus far, it sort of looks like we've a shot of getting 10+ made, which is pretty awesome.
Show Image(http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu23/calaveratf/keyboards/b.jpg)
might wanna think about lining up the num-row with the fingers like kinesis/maltron. It's actually easier for me now to touch type numbers on a matrix layout, than ever before, and i'm a numpad snob (of course i'll always num-type faster with num-pad, but matrix num-row is very good).
Edit: Oh, and is "ErgoDOX" a good name? I read it somewhere, and liked it.
So I wanted to look at the number of people interested in this, so I added up everyone that looks like they may be in on one
Dox is the only one who said they want 2.
p means they are dependant on price,
? means they didn't specifically say they wanted one, but looked interested from their posts.
Parenteses indicate notes I took from their posts.
So I count ~6 or so who are interested regardless of anything.
If the cost is acceptable the number grows significantly to ~12
The total of all people who look interested is 19 ( or actually 20 sets of boards, and 19 sets of cases.)
So if we got 15-20 orders of this, what would the price look like? 'Cause if it means it'll be $250-$350, we'll get a LOT of interest.
ErgoDox Interest check Compilation:
01. Dox...................2
02. DorkVader.............1p (see above)
03. iWuzHere..............1p (Looks sweet)
04. demik.................1? (Looks Awesome, worried about soldering)
05. Lister................1 (Definately interested)
06. Sordna................1 (Looks GREAT!)
07.
08. Mazora................1? (dependant on layout)
09. Input Nirvana.........1? ("Possable Interest")
10. TheSoulHunter.........1p ($300 range)
11. Christoffer.Braathen..1 (ALL IN!!!)
12. Bretrex...............1 (Pcb only)
13. Karacho...............1 (I want one)
14. Quarzac...............1p (Interested, but worried about cost)
15. REVENGE...............1? (Fantastic Project)
16. Sleuth................1p (will see about cash)
17. Jim66.................1? (Will keep eye on thread)
18. Ascaii................1 (very interested)
19. Laffindude............1p (if under $300)
Hope this helps!
---
Edit: Oh, and is "ErgoDOX" a good name? I read it somewhere, and liked it.
Let's do it! I want to solder something!
You read it here:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22412-Truly-Ergonomic-Communication-Sept-27-2011&p=431524&viewfull=1#post431524
I'm quite interested, especially if the keyboard comes with all the parts (including red MX switches), and preferably assembled and working :-)
none for me, i'm just giving feedback from my experience modding a similar layout and using kinesis.
red switches are very hard to get. If you want red switches, you are better off buying and gutting a Poker or Leopold tenkeyless or some other cheaper red-switch keyboards. It might not be a bad idea as I think you can resell the Leopold keycaps, especially that "special" spacebar :-).It's not that special after SP gets production up for the 6-post "combined" spacebars.
100% agree. All split matrix keyboards are consistent, Kinesis, Maltron, Typematrix, and even the TrulyErgonomic as well as the Fingerworks Touchstream (my photo below).
1 is above Q, 5 is above T, 6 is above Y, 0 is above P (assuming qwerty layout).
(Attachment) 30155[/ATTACH]
I would *probably* be interested at $300 depending on the final design.I'll add you now. :)
Please put me down on the list :)
Note on the thumb keys:Could you indicate the location of the keys that you would like to add on my render, this sounds interesting.
Kinesis users will attest that the quantity of keys in the thumb cluster is a big plus. I have never heard of anyone unhappy with the quantity of thumb keys, and a couple wanted more. With my unscientific experiments, I have come to the conclusion that 2 additional keys per thumb could be added within the EXISTING 'range of thumb movement'. A 3rd key (low frequency) with a slight additional movement could be added. I may have a pic in my Kinesis Split Mod article...
Note on case design:
Being a Kinesis user I'm very in tune with this part....it seems to me that the case needs to be as minimal as possible where the butt of your palm would be -OR- larger with a palm rest "built in". Probably only Kinesis users will see this the way I do.
I'd like to hear some feedback on this.
Would it be possible to add holes to screw in 'legs'?
Saw a photo a long while back showing a metal keyboard that had holes to screw in some pegs (these had a threaded metal shaft and a rubber base). If there's two or three holes in line, then the user can choose the hole to control the tent.
Just an idea, sadly it adds a bit to the cost.
I'm interested if it's under $300.interest checked (and added to the list)
More interested in lilster layout thou, prefer qwerty. looks like my ordered double shot from 7bit won't be as compatible as this awesome split type keyboard.
For cherry MX switch, i can supply you, if you're interested.
I would be interested, but it looks like the keyboard was designed without thought for the functionality. there isnt even enough keys for all of the standard keys on a keyboard. heres my thoughts: you need to have all of the standard keys exactly where you would expect to find them. i would put space on both sides on thumb keys, and the second thumb key could be CTRL on the left and ALT on the right. the row on the bottom needs another key (underneith the shift keys on both sides) so that the bottom row can be F1 through F12. the thick vertical keys (on the inside of the setup) should be split up to make sure you have enough keys for every standard key to be where it should be in a qewrty layout. i personally would ditch anything (besides numbers) that can be on a number pad, such as home, page up, page down, end, and the arrow keys. maybe the escape key should be split up to fit the tilde next to it. plus, it could then work with novelty escape keys. (or you could move the esc key up to where it says ergodox, and put ergodox next to the lights on the right hand pad. i think that would look cool.Then, you will have to make your own because I don't agree with the majority of your points. Thanks for your impressions.
all in all, i love the idea, but i think it needs a major rework before i would commit money to the end product.
Wow, how could I have overlooked thuis thread until now ? I am absolutely interested if the price doesnt exceed 300 usd by too much. It will be fully programmable, right?Adding you now. Glad you're interested. :p
Add me on the list please.Adding you as well.
for everything (the switches i may get them from the group buy).
For the record I am not interested.Added.
It is so awesome that we have so many keyboard projects going on here. Really look forward to this one.
I'd definitely be down for one but not for $400. Maybe around $200 though
. . . don't know whether I want to have browns or clears though. I really need to try out some clears because I have no idea whether I'd like them or not.
Just so we're clear, the standard will be Colemak with control to the LEFT of the A!?? OMFG! That's my layout! This is MY keyboard! So epic!I would say the "standard" is 100% programmable for this one. You should be able to set yours up that way, yes. I plan to have a similar thing, but with Dvorak.
I'm LITERALLY in keyboard nirvana right now!
The only thing I might want to change is get rid of the Alt-Gr, put the FN there and place the Enter key where the FN was.
I am DOWN with this $300 or $400 whatever!
. . . don't know whether I want to have browns or clears though. I really need to try out some clears because I have no idea whether I'd like them or not.
You know, I'm not sure why I didn't look at this sooner. It looks pretty sweet. Consider me game if the cost doesn't exceed $350 by much. If MX clears are an option that would be quite swell. If Colemak is the standard, it would be great if I could get caps to fit QWERTY, but I'm sure that's something that I can do even outside of this project.
(Attachment) 34671[/ATTACH]
Hey Dox-
Is this attached image a possible alternative layout? I mean - would that work, or does something prevent that? Or is it possible to position the part above the keys vertically below them, thus creating a foot-bar type thing? I'm not really asking for this as much as trying to better understand the possibilities for keyboard designs.
Who's running this project, Dox or dorkvader? I'm confused.
Could you indicate the location of the keys that you would like to add on my render, this sounds interesting.
I've been working a lot recently and I didn't had much time to put on this but I will continue as soon as I can. I want this to happen.
Oh and a soda fountain built-in! Spikes! We need spikes so that we can decimate our enemy if they ever attack us entrenched in our offices!Almost exactly the same thing happened in Plato's Republic
Oh, oh and you should build-in windshield wiper units so it can clean itself and your monitor. Maybe a vacuum unit built into the bottom of it so it can keep a tidy desktop. . . better make it a wet/dry vac to handle any wayward bodily fluids. . . speaking of which, have you considered attaching a robotic arm that it could like you know reach. . . umm nevermind :tape2:
Almost exactly the same thing happened in Plato's Republic
Yup, on the right, between the YUHJ keys, per Input Nirvana's research (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8110) on the topic ...
I'm LITERALLY in keyboard nirvana right now!
Input nirvana????
Hey Dox, I have two items to nag you about:Keep your input coming!
1)
I've spent a tremendous amount of time contemplating/using/experimenting with Kinesis key placement/add/delete/moves. I believe the most recent render is the best there can be WITHOUT moving fingers from the home row. This is almost the same as what I came up with. (my pic is pretty bad, and the added keys are covering some existing keys, but it's a mock up). It's perfectly ok to have keys that you need to move off home row to hit, but I decided I will not address that until I have made every effort to keep keys within the target range of fingers/thumbs and staying on home row.
(Attachment) 35228[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 35229[/ATTACH]
These are some of my thoughts on the right hand keywell (matching your right hand render):
-The white key extreme lower right under the shift (pinky activated) was to possibly be a Fn key and is replicated on the left keywell. (I've added these 2 keys to my mod, it's quite excellent).
-The white key under the arrow key, next to the right of the space key, if a little lower could be Sordnas palm activated shift key (maybe use a long key?).
Palm key could be interesting.
-The white key to the left lower side of thumb cluster, allows activation without leaving home row.
I'll see what I can do for this but as a vim user, I got to say that there is already enough keys for my intended layout.
-The long white keys to the left of "HN" and "6Y" I was undecided if they could be square (2 square keys to the left of "Y" and "H") or the long keys you see for easier touch-type targets.
Yeah I was thinking that those long keys being further inside could be easier to hit.
The reasons I have been so hell-bent on increasing the number of keys, and keeping them within touch-type range, was to be able to provide dual modifiers (per Sordna, Architect). These adds allow 5 keys per side. With what I have here, Command/Windows, CTRL, ALT/OPT, shift, Fn, can be used by either hand, and still have the ability to have dual enters or whatever. And still have the option of a couple keys that take your fingers off home row, if you really want to do that :)
Dual modifiers is possible in with the current render for me but I understand that some people may need some extra keys and I will consider it.
2)
Regarding the integrated trackpoint (or pointing device). I strongly suggest that you don't feel you can't move forward without it, but don't dare move forward unless you have made provisions for it. Again, I've spent so much time on this. Ask yourself this one question: Why am I making this? A: Ergonomics. What's more un-ergonomic than taking your hand off home row and off the keyboard?. Easy options for pointing devices are trackpoint, multi-direction scrollwheel, and thumb scrollball (see Alphagrip AG-5, I'm a huge fan of these things).
I don't think I said it before but I would LOVE to have an integrated trackpoint. The only problem that I see is...... Where can you buy these things?? I think all the mods with trackpoint I've seen were from some hacked IBM rubber dome keyboards. I have to have something "standard" to be able to implement it correctly. I currently don't even own a trackpoint. If somebody have a source for these we need your help. Otherwise, the best I can do is the place a hole in the plate and PCB and put some traces on the PCB to connect one and leave the choice to the user. You will however always have the options to use mouse keys on a fn (or primary) layer.
Random note. You know this design is screaming to be mounted on chair arms, or similar. What about a pointing device option then? What about tenting this keyboard...even worse, you'd have to "un-tent" your wrist to use a mouse or whatever, then "re-tent". How stone age and RSI prone is that?
I got a few mounting ideas that I want to try and chair mounted is one of them. I know... I know... integrated pointing device....
Hehe, I N at his finest. Just one note on the palm key: Where you have it on your mock up, it's actually an extra (and welcome!) thumb key.
By palm key, I mean a key that will be lower than the thumb cluster, like this:
(Attachment) 35247[/ATTACH]
But the location you put your key, is actually a welcome extra thumbcluster key, especially if you make it parallel with the thumb keys and align it so it lines up with the bottom edge of the space.
I will send an email to unicomp to see what they can do. The trackpoint is not an absolute requirement but it would be a great feature.
No LCD.
I did not have luck with this. I spoke with Bob. Maybe you can do better.
No, the trackpoint is not an absolute requirement, but your exploring all avenues is. You have a great project with a lot of insight. Don't take a last minute short-cut, it's too valuable. Information is power. I'll help you if I can. You can always PM me.
I can be very unhelpful if given the chance.
Synaptics used to, I don't know about anymore though.
I got a few mounting ideas that I want to try and chair mounted is one of them.
If you saw the chair mount mechanics in the Split Kineisis mod article...I've looked at doing a lot of things, that one is the most simple, versatile, robust, and affordable.
I did not have luck with this. I spoke with Bob. Maybe you can do better.
No, the trackpoint is not an absolute requirement, but your exploring all avenues is. You have a great project with a lot of insight. Don't take a last minute short-cut, it's too valuable. Information is power. I'll help you if I can. You can always PM me.
Hi Guys, i have been disconnected from geekhack since last months and then i found this project. What a nice surprise to found somebody who was developing a project with ideas coming from the key64 keyboard.
I started designing the key64 at the begining of the year after the TE fiasco, none of their concepts are new i just borrow them from information i found at geekhack, deskthority and overclock.net and made references to them at the design page (http://www.key64.com/keyboards) with the hope someday i will make it real.
Geekhack is a wonderful place to anybody who find keyboards exciting, but is very addictive so i decided to stay away for a while, Dox: your keybord "the dox keyboard" is awesome, while i still prefer to be minimalistic in design, and follow the key64's motto "No more keys you can type on" i wish you make your design a reality, and share your experiences with us as you have one on the past with the staggered one.
keep up the good work !
p.d. Input Nirvana: i don't like the idea of a trackpoint inside a keyboard. I have a thinkpad and in my personal experience is so painful and is not as faster and as comfortable as a trackball, right now i use a logitech marble mouse, coming from a kensigton trackball.
I also own a Fingerworks Touchstream, which has mousing on the keyboard itself, and that feature is so amazingly awesome that you can't believe.
qwert
asdfg
zxcvb
qwfpg
arstd
zxcvb
KEY:
> = Mouse Speed Increase
< = Mouse Speed Decrease
⇖⇑⇗⇐⇒⇙⇓⇘ = Mouse Movements
0 = Mouse 0 or Left Mouse Button
ǀ = Mouse 1 or Middle Mouse Button
ǁ = Mouse 2 or Right Mouse Button
^ = Scroll Up
ⱽ = Scroll Down
^⇖ ⇑ ⇗ >
ǀ ⇐ 0 ⇒ ǁ
ⱽ ⇙ ⇓ ⇘ <
>⇖ ⇑ ⇗ ^
0 ⇐ ǀ ⇒ ǁ
<⇙ ⇓ ⇘ ⱽ
>⇖ ⇑ ⇗ ^
ǁ ⇐ ǀ ⇒ 0
<⇙ ⇓ ⇘ ⱽ
xkbset m # enable mousekeys
xkbset exp =m # avoid expiring mousekeys
# Choose a keymap that has an extra layer (level 3),
# add compose key (shift+ralt) and caps lock toggle by pressing both shifts:
setxkbmap 'us(altgr-intl)' -option lv3:ralt_switch_multikey,shift:both_capslock
# menu to grave/tilde:
xmodmap -e 'keycode 135 = grave asciitilde grave asciitilde'
# rwin/super to altgr:
xmodmap -e 'remove mod4 = Super_R'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 134 = ISO_Level3_Shift Multi_key'
# caps to altgr (shift+caps locks it!):
xmodmap -e 'remove Lock = Caps_Lock'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 66 = ISO_Level3_Shift ISO_Level3_Lock'
# numpad (just the keys needed for mouskeys)
xmodmap -e 'keycode 30 = u U u U KP_7 KP_Home'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 31 = i I i I KP_8 KP_Up'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 32 = o O o O KP_9 KP_Prior'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 44 = j J j J KP_4 KP_Left'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 45 = k K k K KP_5 KP_Begin'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 46 = l L l L KP_6 KP_Right'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 58 = m M m M KP_1 KP_End'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 59 = comma less comma less KP_2 KP_Down'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 60 = period greater period greater KP_3 KP_Next'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 19 = 0 parenright 0 parenright KP_0 KP_Insert'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 47 = semicolon colon semicolon colon KP_Decimal KP_Delete'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 20 = minus underscore minus underscore KP_Subtract KP_Subtract'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 61 = slash question slash question KP_Divide KP_Divide'
# that's all folks
I'm not sold on the trackpoint yet myself, but I imagine it'd probably be optional anyway.
...
Want me to put you on the list as under $400?
One thing though - I really need a third key above the first double wide in the thumb block. Let's not just use the Kinesis design but improve on it. That extra key will allow for three modifier keys on both sides (Windows, Alt, Control or Command, Option, Control)
I like the idea of the three modifiers being available on both sides. What would that change do to the position of the thumb block relative to the rest of the keys? Or did I not follow what you were suggesting?
Architect, I don't think an extra key is needed, because this keyboard has extra keys in the middle that can be used as modifiers.
If it goes to production I'll buy three.Added!
Like so many others, I'm confident that I'd want one at $300. I might have to think a bit about a cost that's significantly above that, but I like this idea enough that I can't rule it out. How's that for a mushy answer? I guess "$300+" works for now.Changed!
One thing though - I really need a third key above the first double wide in the thumb block. Let's not just use the Kinesis design but improve on it. That extra key will allow for three modifier keys on both sides (Windows, Alt, Control or Command, Option, Control)(emphasis mine)
I'm always surprised to hear ergonomic arguments in favor of the TrackPoint. I can't use them because they drive my tendonitis wild, so I view them as an RSI disaster. I used to work on projects with a group run by the inventor of the TrackPoint. This view wasn't very popular there.Ugh, I used to have to put my wrists (and hands) in ice for 20 minutes, back when I was doing gymnastics. As a whole, Men's gymnastics is much worse on the wrists than women's, and pommel-horse especially so. Luckily, I don't seem to have any lasting issues. Anyway, I've not really been a fan of the TP, though I now prefer them to touchpads when working on customer's computers at work (I work at a warranty laptop repair center near college) because it's easier to use when the computer in question is up on shelf, so you can't see the touchpad. I'm still unsure about their use on keyboards, though.
Yeah that's possible, but the beauty and usability of the three modifier across the top, and the hole there just looks made for it.I agree with you: it seems like a great idea to me, though as I said, I'm a little unsure about how it'll work out in practice, as I've not had any experience with using my thumbs on a keyboard like that.
Well I'm game for a couple either way, but the three would be awesome if anybody else likes the idea.
the hole there just looks made for it.
Hmm, adding jacks for extra switches/footpedals might also be a good idea.
First of all put me down for one with Cherry MX BluesThat one made me laugh this morning. You are ready to sacrifice an ergonomic aspect of the keyboard to save a few bucks but you are interested in cold feeling aluminum keycaps that would increase the cost A LOT.
But I have a few suggestions:
1. Make the keys a true matrix layout. You have lined up the keys vertically, but not horizontally. Kensis/TypeMatrix is a true matrix keyboard. By doing this you'll also be able to save cost as the casting would be smaller.
2. Move the 6 key back to the right side. All the good split mechanical keyboards have the 6 on the right side. Pushing the +/= key to the double size one is fine.
3. Use Kensis' layout of splitting the up/down left/right keys is probably the best thing to do. This way you can keep the {[]} keys together on the right side like Kensis
4. Investigate how much would it cost to also have anodized aluminium keycaps :D This way you can making it a selling feature that the entire keyboard is aluminium
So the theory goes with this 'board, is that -like the kinesis- it's not staggered vertically, so your fingers will only have to move up and down between rows (not the little bit side to side they do now).
I would say that the Kinesis Contoured is vertically staggered. Counting only on the home row, the offsets between index, middle and ring finger is very small, but the offset from the ring finger column to the little finger column is about 40% -- about as much as on flat vertically staggered keyboards.(http://www.ergocanada.com/products/keyboards/advantage_images/kinesis_orthogonal_keywell_609x390.jpg)
I stand corrected on the Kinesis. It is not a true matrix. The only one currently in production seems to be TypeMatrix. You cannot compare the Kinesis to this keyboard. This keyboard is flat while the Kinesis has key wells. That might explain why Kinesis did not do a true matrix.Firstly: don't lose heart! There are lots of POS boards (from Access-is, tipro, and cherry) that are "true-matrix" that you may be interested in. Typematrix isn't the only one.
both use USB cables (is this true for the modern kinesis?)
Like I said: I feel that the kinesis doesn't have a "true matrix" (good thing) because it tries to take into account the relative finger lengths. This one does, too (to some extent). Now, I haven't greatly studied ergonomics, but I feel like I'm at least on the right track here.
Interested, but need:
Soldering and shipping to Sweden.
300-
Due to unfavourable financial circumstances, if this does not come to somewhere around $150-200, im afraid i cant really be part of it.
If it helps, I don't care at all for an aluminum case. The main thing about this keyboard is the split and the ergonomics, not the case material. Plastic is fine by me. I don't even care about the color.
Just to clear a misconception about the case material. The same layered case in acrylic would cost around 20$ more by hand than the current aluminium one.
It's not the material that is expensive, it's the time to machine/cut the plates that is the main part of the cost.
How about 3D printing the case? Heck, with a layered case, it can even be a DIY cardboard affair at minimal cost!
Have you thought about broadening the audience a bit? Throw it on Kickstarter and get 100 people to pay $300. It couldn't hurt.I thought about it but with my current job, I don't have the time to manage something like this.
So... $220 for the plates/case. If we are ordering the switches as a whole, we'll get super-discount pricing from mouser (like $0.79/switch). What are we estimating on 25-50 PCB's: $50/hand? we could do single layer, with using the cutoffs from the diodes to make jumpers if that'll acceptibly bring the price down.The PCB will be double sided. 50$ per hand is a good guess. I pretty sure that machining stamping tools would cost a lot more than the current laser cutting.
Finally: WOW dox: that layer case will look awesome. I'd buy two if I could afford it. Have you looked into CNC'ing a tool for a stamping press? We could get them all manufactured in 5 minutes if we did that.
How about 3D printing the case? Heck, with a layered case, it can even be a DIY cardboard affair at minimal cost!It could be done but I'm not sure about the cost. I really don't think that it would reduce the price significantly. It can be done in cardboard as you said (and litster demonstrated) but I'm going with aluminium.
(Attachment) 36282[/ATTACH]I thought about it but the way the case is designed, there is not a lot of layer combination possible without having to machine the plates afterward (something I try to avoid to keep cost down).
Dox, one suggestion for your plates. If you can use thicker materials for the middle layers, then you don't have to cut as many plates, and that should lower the cost due to fewer layers to cut. You would likely still use thinner (1/16" or 1/8") plates for top and bottom layers.
Are you using all the same keycaps for all the rows since its a flat keyboard?
Let me answer this one: BECAUSE it's a flat keyboard, it should have normal keycaps (which have varying profiles) to give it a contour, just like 99% of the flat keyboards out there.This. But the keycap choice will be left to the users.
Just read though the whole thread and I'm in if its less than $400 and ready constructed!I ordered a few different connectors and cables a couple days ago to decide what is the best way to connect the 2 halves. I plan on having 2 short cables coming out from each halve that could be connected directly together or connected with an extra cable between them to give more separation.
How far can the 2 parts be separated because I'm thinking I can use this with a Wacom tablet in the centre?
So... $220 for the plates/case. If we are ordering the switches as a whole, we'll get super-discount pricing from mouser (like $0.79/switch). What are we estimating on 25-50 PCB's: $50/hand? we could do single layer, with using the cutoffs from the diodes to make jumpers if that'll acceptibly bring the price down.
Finally: WOW dox: that layer case will look awesome. I'd buy two if I could afford it. Have you looked into CNC'ing a tool for a stamping press? We could get them all manufactured in 5 minutes if we did that.
As for switches, I highly recommend people joining the switch group buy over at DT. We currently have a price of 0.60$ per switch. That includes reds and clears! Im getting my switches for the dox there.
Btw, not sure if it's been mentioned or whether it's feasible but I was wondering if we could have a detachable usb cable instead of the built-in one (like the HHKB). That way, it'll be much easier to replace faulty cables and/or use extensions.
Sweet design, i'd buy if it was 200-300.Sure, I'll add you to the list.
The teensy has a mini-b USB port on the shortest side of it anyway. If you wanted it hardwired, you'd have to mod it. Given the shape of the keyboard and the likely placement of the teensy board, it doesn't look like the port will be external to the device. This means the cable is easily replaceable by popping it open but not "detachable" on the fly.Yeah, I looked through the images, and that's what it looks like. I think on mine, I'd make (or buy) a mini-USB cable to plug into the teensy, and come out of the case, about a few inches (like in the concept art) then plug it into a normal extension cable for length. I want this to be portable.
As for switches, I highly recommend people joining the switch group buy over at DT. We currently have a price of 0.60$ per switch. That includes reds and clears! Im getting my switches for the dox there.Hah! It's 7bit's phantom order, also on GH!
Dox, what kind of shop does this have to go through to get the plates cut? I have a few contacts in a couple different machine shops that might be able to get a deal on if that's the kind of service you need. I'd be happy to at least look into it for you, but I don't know what to tell them to get an accurate quote. Thanks.The plates just need to be cut with a plasma cutter or something similar with high accuracy. I was planning to do the threading and the bolt countersunk myself to reduce the cost. I can send you a DWG file for the plates required for 1 hand later today. That way, you should be able to get an accurate quote.
Hmm, some excellent ideas: are you an engineer?1: I personally don't like this placement.
1. nice teensy location next to the thumb. I much prefer it that way, though I'm not sure if DOX would want to completely redesign his.
2. The programming LED is great. Having a programming mode is cool, but having an LED so you know when you're in it is great. Hmm, Another idea is to have a row of LED's somewhere that light up if you're in another shifted layer (for example, hitting capslock shifts to all caps mode. Hitting fn+shift might move it to mousekeys mode, etc. Having lights available to the user to indicate this would be great. Like one lights up when fn is pressed (or if you have a way to "lock" the mode) and another would light up when altgraph is pressed, etc.
3. So you'd join them with a rainbow cable? Wouldn't you be concerned that it'd break, or pull out? I imagine you'd have feet on the keyboard, so that the excess cable can go under the keyboard. Hmm, you could use beefy connectors like the ones that were used in then (unrelated) project:
http://www.amb.org/forum/a-delta1-hat-trick-of-sorts-t776.html
I'll throw out some ideas for connecting two halves together that I researched for my own split project, generally from easiest to hardest, less awesome to more awesome, and obviously less time intensive to "wtf this is taking forever" :p
- Use two controllers, that are separately programmed, with separate USB cables.
- Use one controller, with one usb cable, and bring the matrix over from the other half via some cable (ideally commonly and cheaply available).
- Use two controllers, that are separately programmed, with separate USB cables, and small cable (RJ11 or such) interconnect using SPI (or similar protocol) between the controllers. This allows for things like mod keys on one half affecting the keys on the other half like in 2, but with flexibility of using the halves individually if so desired.
- Use two controllers, each of which picks up its key layout from a single shared memory location. Each half also has a USB2 hub; the controller interconnect is a USB3 cable going into the hub of the other half, with the SPI traffic of step 3 happening over the extra unused wires of the cable.
I'll throw out some ideas for connecting two halves together that I researched for my own split project, generally from easiest to hardest, less awesome to more awesome, and obviously less time intensive to "wtf this is taking forever" :p
1. Use two controllers, that are separately programmed, with separate USB cables.
2. Use one controller, with one usb cable, and bring the matrix over from the other half via some cable (ideally commonly and cheaply available).Needs a relatively large interconnect. (25-pin RS232 is the only common cable I can think of, other than plain ribbon.)
3. Use two controllers, that are separately programmed, with separate USB cables, and small cable (RJ11 or such) interconnect using SPI (or similar protocol) between the controllers. This allows for things like mod keys on one half affecting the keys on the other half like in 2, but with flexibility of using the halves individually if so desired.
Needs a relatively large interconnect. (25-pin RS232 is the only common cable I can think of, other than plain ribbon.)
Single fiber optic cable FTW !
Hmm, some excellent ideas: are you an engineer?
1. nice teensy location next to the thumb. I much prefer it that way, though I'm not sure if DOX would want to completely redesign his.
2. The programming LED is great. Having a programming mode is cool, but having an LED so you know when you're in it is great. Hmm, Another idea is to have a row of LED's somewhere that light up if you're in another shifted layer (for example, hitting capslock shifts to all caps mode. Hitting fn+shift might move it to mousekeys mode, etc. Having lights available to the user to indicate this would be great. Like one lights up when fn is pressed (or if you have a way to "lock" the mode) and another would light up when altgraph is pressed, etc.That's a good idea, however, if you do touch typing that's irrelevant, i just use them for "debuging purposes" and for backwards compatibility with PC 104 keys.
3. So you'd join them with a rainbow cable? Wouldn't you be concerned that it'd break, or pull out? I imagine you'd have feet on the keyboard, so that the excess cable can go under the keyboard. Hmm, you could use beefy connectors like the ones that were used in then (unrelated) project:
http://www.amb.org/forum/a-delta1-hat-trick-of-sorts-t776.html
I like the HDMI cable idea a lot! I will order a few connectors and check the possibilities.
Here (http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/1746679-1/A35075-ND/1246897) is one of the few TH ones, but it's with a panel mount (meh). Haven't yet been able to find others (that are purchasable), so it's all SMD otherwise.
EDIT: Also, what about wireless? Or am I just nuts. Like one receiver (USB) both halves connect to it. Or, the left half connects to the right half wireless, and the right half is USB to the computer.
3: There is no place for those beefy connectors and there is no place for a retractable cable in the case.
It is not fair
Spambot, he made an identical post in another thread. Reported!
I don't think there are any off-the-shelf parts that would let you power the remote unit over fiber.
Looks to me like a normal USB, but with the rubber taken off (or just not put on). I'll check mouser.
Dox, what is that cable connecting to the Teensy? Do you have a link to where I can buy one? I like it that it doesn't have the rubber arond the connector. Thanks.
Looks to me like a normal USB, but with the rubber taken off (or just not put on). I'll check mouser.
---
Forget mouser: here's some digikey:
http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/UX40A-MB-5P/H2958-ND/597534
http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/UX40-MB-5P/H2955-ND/597531
If an IDC connector fits, that's great. Ribbon cables are ugly, and need to be crimped to length with an appropriate tool (or a hammer..), but can be sleeved during that process to look better-ish. Labor intensive, obviously.
Of course, if something like a DB15 or DB25 fit height-wise, that makes it even more heavy-duty, as those cables are actually better for external applications unlike ribbon cables which are easier to damage. Height is about 0.5" from the PCB for either connector. Cables are fairly common (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10215&cs_id=1021501&p_id=542&seq=1&format=2) for either one (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10212&cs_id=1021201&p_id=1583&seq=1&format=2).
I won't get into a debate (which it isn't really as Dox has the last word) which one makes more sense in practical or theoretical terms, especially since I'm still on the fence about getting this board :p
Wow, 18 pages, 268 posts, this project is becoming the next mini-guru, hopefully with a positive outcome !
BTW, I still think HDMI is worth a try, with cheap cables easily found in any length from 1.5ft and up, it's very attractive.
I won't get into a debate (which it isn't really as Dox has the last word) which one makes more sense in practical or theoretical terms, especially since I'm still on the fence about getting this board :pAdded :p
Added :pSomething between 13 and 20
Hmm, you're right about ribbon cables. I'll dig through the amphenol section of my mouser catalog and see what I may see. How many conductors were we after?
Micro-D connectors would work great, except the connectors are $arm and cables are $leg :(well put! Made me laugh.
Wonder if there's a dual cat5 block that has the retention tabs on opposite sides. Easy single hand grip to remove would be nice.You mean like sideways? I've only seen upside up and upside down.
You mean like sideways? I've only seen upside up and upside down.
RJ45 jacks are even taller than DB15 connector, unfortunately, so I don't think they'd work. There's really not much out there that's readily accessible and meets our needs :/Yeah, as you said, RJ45 are even taller than DB15 so there is no chance these will fit in the case.
Okay, seriously, what's wrong with wireless? :)
Nothings wrong with wireless, except I think it's been mentioned and it's rather cost prohibitive since you'll need a total of at least 3 'units'. 1: the receiver on the PC end, 2: left hand board transmitter, 3: right hand board transmitter. And that's only if you can find a tech that enables you to use 2 transmitters on 1 receiver and process both signals at the same time. Maybe ZigBee or something similar, but other than names I don't know too much about it.
Then of course you need a controller in each board to give the transmitter something to send, and then a controller on the receiver end to tell the PC what was sent. ouch, that's a lot of electronic gizmos.
Woohoo! Vote for me often.
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?25737-The-OFFICIAL-2012-Troll-Poll!
Okay, seriously, what's wrong with wireless? :)
Haven't read the entire thread, but I'm interested... as long as it comes with its own keys. I don't mind soldering on the switches though if that lowers the price.
I'll add you, though getting keys for it should be pretty easy via WASD, and the A-Z keyboard area can be taken from any cherry MX.
If you don't have anything constructive to add, I would ask you not to post here.
Thanks in advance!
First constructive post in ten pages, look what I found:Wow, that looks pretty good! I looked on their order page, and I only see evaluation boards. I don't know where we can get the chips, and the company might want us to order 1,000 of them.
http://www.sprintek.com/products/SK5100.aspx
Might even be useful for colemak and dvorak conversions, etc.
This keyboard looks very interesting, sort of like a splittable TrulyErgonomic (or split flat Maltron) with thumb keys similar to a Kinesis, sweet! As a Colemak and Kinesis user for about 4 years, and having tried a TrulyErgonomic and liking it but missing the thumb keys, this keyboard looks right up my alley.I don't know how distribution will go, you may have to order two as a "leap of faith", or there may be more available (like what ragnarock does with his keycaps). I'll put you down for 1-2 if that's okay.
I could afford $400, would prefer no soldering, and would require international shipping. Reprogrammability in firmware is a must, as far as I can see this is a given (excellent, because I'd like to make a few adjustments: number row shifted one to the left, arrow keys and second Enter key on the left hand, and command/option/ctrl on the thumb(s), like my current layout (http://homepage.mac.com/boli/ars/80329_kinesis_colemak_small.png)). It would have to work properly with OS X.
If I'd like it I'd soon need a second one, too, but I won't order 2 right off the bat without having tried it or someone I trust try and review one.
Hiya!I'll add you!
Totally new here, and this caught my eye. Cannot help but *covet* this lovely keyboard. Nice work! I've had the Kinesis Classic and Advantage for over 10 years now, and as much as I love it, this keyboard just looks a whole lot sexier! Sign me up if you can make it for around $300! Thanks!
First constructive post in ten pages, look what I found:
http://www.sprintek.com/products/SK5100.aspx
Might even be useful for colemak and dvorak conversions, etc.
Wow, that looks pretty good! I looked on their order page, and I only see evaluation boards. I don't know where we can get the chips, and the company might want us to order 1,000 of them.
Hmm, the SK7190 integrates a pointing stick controller too.. The chips look fairly low BOM, though I see no mention of key rollover/diode support.
Hmm, the SK7190 integrates a pointing stick controller too.. The chips look fairly low BOM, though I see no mention of key rollover/diode support.
I want to be on the list. 400 $ would be okay if that includes everything. (Except assembly.)
The SK7190 is a pointing stick controller only, no keyboard controller.
BTW, N-key roll over support is explicitely mentioned with the SK5102 chip: http://www.sprintek.com/products/SK5102.aspx
Are you interested in assembly, too? I'll add you after work.
Sorry, I'm confused about the thumb keys in the latest design, at the front page I see two ideas. Are there two thumbers or six? If two then I have to regretfully bow out. Thanks -As far as I know, the latest design has more than two thumbswitches. I believe the two-switch one was proposed at the beginning, and reworked into the kinesis-like grouping.
(and BTW, yes for sure no bluetooth! I've had too many problems with it, I want absolute connectivity in a keyboard)
I'm interested in this and would like to be added to the list. I've not assembled something like this before, but that part sounds almost as fun as having this design actualized! I suppose i'm conditional on the price being at or under 400. Time to start saving I guess! =)Haha! That's the spirit, I'll add you presently.
Hmm, as I look at it again, I think the "wave" is too much. Especially as you curve your fingers to type the lower row (ZXCVB) having to put the ring and middle finger more forward than the others feels unnatural.
The split is essential, since people come in different sizes! As for the wave, I'm not against it, but I think it should be more subtle.
Maybe, OTOH everybody's hands meet in the middle too, as they do for all primates. I'm trying to understand if the split is a ergonomic feature, and why people think so. Not saying it isn't, just looking for the evidence.
Maybe, OTOH everybody's hands meet in the middle too, as they do for all primates. I'm trying to understand if the split is a ergonomic feature, and why people think so. Not saying it isn't, just looking for the evidence.
I want one too!
This seems to be my "ideal" kb design. I was looking for a mix between Kinesis Advantage/Maltron 2D, and Kinesis Countoured - this looks like it!
I also think the Advantage/Maltron 2D designs should have symmetrical 3-modifier key layout and would be EXCELLENT with a well-placed touchpad!
I was going to put my next best hope in the Truly Ergonomic - but it's not even available! Your DOX looks even better. Hope it's available soon.
One more thing - I thought it would be good to have an area below the keys to rest your palms. Don't know if that's been discussed here yet.
I have a Kinesis and my biggest complaint is the moved += button. I see you have moved it as well as other keys.
I'll put my money where my mouth is and create my own "ideal" keyboard.
Added :)
That's a good point: like the kinesis has the palmrests, etc. I still feel that the design should account for that ,but not have them inherent, that way one can make or add one's own to suit one's tastes.
Added :)
So you are interested too? I'll add you anyway.
If rests are desired then these (http://www.amazon.com/3M-Leatherette-Antimicrobial-Protection-WR305LE/dp/B0016OV5MQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1326714496&sr=8-3) should work fine, one on each hand tucked in right in front of the keyboard.
Halved keyboards however, allow you to dynamically alter your ergonomic situation on a whim.
Truly Ergonomic, for example (looks like they did a good job with that - but I've only seen pictures). But I know this might be asking too much from Dox.
Do you think they should be added to the bottom of the casing to ease in creating or adapting a tent or chair-mount setup?
For my own long-slow split project, I'm planning on using ball joints — specifically repurposed camera flash mounts, which are cheap and easy to get — at the back edge of the units. This wouldn't work as-is on the ErgoDox case (can't tap a hole in the layered edge) but something similar might.
(Attachment) 37764[/ATTACH]
I would be in for one with Cherry browns if it's completely assembled at least up to the caps.Added
Me too !I already have you (as #08), but were you also wanting the building service?
I would be in for one with Cherry browns if it's completely assembled at least up to the caps.
In many ergonomic guides a negative slope of the keyboard is propose to minimize wrist bending. Negative slope--meaning that the keyboard angles downward so that the side closest to your body is higher than the side away from your body. The side picture in the first post shows a positive slope.
Hey dox, can you tell me the measurement of the staggering ? ie: how much farther "north" is the W row is than the Q row, E row, etcI can't speak for Dox, but I imagine it'd be like other matrix boards: where the spacing left/right is the same as up/down. If this is the case, then it'd be 0.75 inches between keys, and would work with any 1x cherry mx compatible keycap (see, if it's less than that, the keycaps would hit eachother, and if it's more, you'd have to move your fingers a lot more)
hello
i want one of this, but what about switches and diodes ?
The group buy for the Phantom keyboard and switches is ending and i think i'll order some as the prices are nice.
Ah good to know about the diodes. Here, an amazon seller sells them for 1 cent each, so you can get 100 for $1 + $4.49 shipping = $5.49
http://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express-1N4148-Logic-Diode/dp/B0002KRC7C
lolwut @ Technical Details :D
Precision machined 6 cut RCA connector with split center pinIt IS parts express (sell expensive components for audio). I think they just accidentally pasted it in there.
Available in versions to fit three different ranges of TV sizes
Where's this interest list being kept? I just want to make sure I'm on it.
Thanks
Hah, thanks. Can't believe I missed that.I had you down as #49
It seems that the forum has rolled back a bit and my interest post was lost. I am still interested. Is there any way for people with interest to contribute in any way?I have you and Salash down on the list. I'll update the second post. good thing I keep a backup on my laptop :p
I know we're still looking for a decent connector between the halves (the bulky 3m Ribbon cable one I found looks good, but I'm thinking ribbon cables aren't ideal. HDMI has been suggested, but I really hate appropriating it to this use (It's "wrong", surface mount, dubious strain relief available, etc)), and other ideas have been proposed)You could make each half a stand-alone keyboard. One half could also contain a USB hub for linking up the pair, so you only need one USB cable going to the host (PC, etc.)
You could make each half a stand-alone keyboard. One half could also contain a USB hub for linking up the pair, so you only need one USB cable going to the host (PC, etc.)
This might even let you mirror image the PCB.No: there are some practical reasons we can't mirror it: first off the switches wouldn't fit. (they are asymmetrical).
You can still mirror it if you provision an extra solderable hole for each switch, which shouldn't increase the cost at all.
Also, as far as the connector we should pick something that is easily available and doesn't cause a hassle to be replaced. Couldn't a nice braided USB cable suffice?
My vote still goes for HDMI, due to enough conductors, small size, and very cheap & easy to find cables of varying lengths.
I'm concerned about the surface mount (much less mechanically sound compared with through-hole) and the apparent lack of decent panel mount options for them.
You'd only owe them a licensing fee if you implemented HDMI on the port. I'm wondering if some sadist wants to try implementing 1 half with shift registers and using serial over a small cable using RJ45s or the like.
SPI (4 wires) or I2C (2 wires) would only need an RJ11, but I think that even RJ11 is too high to fit. And yeah, implementing that type of protocol would be quite a substantial amount of work :(
Or use an I²C I/O expander (e.g. 23017 (http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/MCP23017-E%2FSP/MCP23017-E%2FSP-ND/894272)) to get down to 4 conductors, and use 2.5mm audio (http://search.digikey.com/ca/en/products/SJ1-42515TS/CP1-42515TS-ND/659902) connectors. Cheap, compact, and through-hole.
Got any idea of a ballpack price for this thing?
The most I could possibly pay for this board would be 200 O_O even though it looks pretty amazingAssembled? I imaging that's doable at the current rate for self-assembly, labor would probably add $50 - $100.
@dorkvader/dox: If the price can stay below $400 for *everything* (except assembly), I'm definitely interested. If it can stay below $300, I'd like one. If below $150-200, I think I might want two.. lol, or at least an extra case+PCB. Assuming it can get done in the next few months so I can get it together and get used to it before school, and of course that no future design decisions make it not work for me (which I don't expect to be the case). Created an account just so I could track this thread :) .
A few of the things that matter to me:
- The thumbs having a good amount of keys within easy reach (as in the current kinesis looking thumb group)
- The cord between the two being cheap, easy to get, and *small* (as is being discussed). I've never tried, but it seems to me that anything thicker / less flexible than a typical usb cord would be a pain when the two halves of the keyboard were close together on a desk. And aesthetically, a ribbon cable connector or even an ethernet connector (or a pair of them), would ruin it IMO. 2x2.5mm audio connectors (like kps suggested) would be pretty cool, if there's nothing better in a single similarly sized and shaped cable.
A few of the things that don't matter to me:
- Assembly service. If it's going to be done by another member, and/or going to cost more than maybe $20, I may as well take the opportunity to learn :)
- Layout. I'm planning to change it all anyway.
- Whether the parts all come in the same box, or whether we have to get them from different places. As long as they're not way too hard to find/buy, and the total price can stay below my above limits.
Random preferences (if they make a difference here):
- I'm leaning towards cherry browns, after a bunch of reading. I haven't found a place to try them, but they sound like what I want.
- Colored or clear keycaps. I know these would be extra... but if they turn out not to be too much more, it'd be really cool.
- O-rings (the soft ones), probably. I assume these would be extra too.
- For layout, I'll probably do something close to arensito, at least with the AltGr symbol layer.
Other thoughts:
- I'd prefer it not to be red. Lol, though I guess I'd live if it were.
- Once it gets closer to being done, if I'm not the only one here who's a noob at all things hardware, maybe someone could post links to save us searching around for all the parts we'll have to get ourselves, how to put it together (or at least common pitfalls), how to reprogram/reflash the firmware for remapping (and other things?), and all that? I understand it's DIY so I shan't complain, but it'd save me a bit of tangential effort.
Parts: I imagine there'll be a good BOM made up, where We'll distribute the plate/case and PCB, then have a link to where you can buy the rest. You could conceivably have it ordered in a few minutes, Still, if we're distributing the plates/case already, it might be a better idea to distribute the other components at the same time, for possible savings in bulk.
Keycaps: I never imagined keycaps to come with the base kit. Many GH'ers have extra sets, and they're pretty easy to get (WASDkeyboards, anyone?) elsewhere. I also really want clear keycaps to go over my cherry greens in the mail.
As far as colour, we might be able to work something out with the Machine shop to get it anodized different colours. Ofcourse it would be pretty easy to paint it yourself.
Finally: You should look at the phantom guide on the DT WIKI. This is almost the same project (only with the different physical aspect, integrated case, and possible complication of cables/connectors) and there's a lot of good info there. I imagine when it comes time, We'll update it with some ergoDOX specifics. I've always wanted to write up a proper manual in LaTeX for download/distribution.
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Phantom_Instruction
Hmm, that's a nice approach. SDA, SCL, Power, and Ground over the 4 conductors?
Would still need a willing sap^H^H^H volunteer to create some sample code, and breadboard test it with a small matrix, I suppose.
I wish the ErgoDox will be 6KRO for maximum compatibility with any computer / OS. When I see NKRO over USB I run, run away from it; to me it's a useless feature and so I prefer the USB standard to avoid any possibility of issues with the various OSs I use. I lived with 2KRO just fine for years, and 6KRO is even better, and six plus modifiers is really more simultaneous keys than I will ever need.
@parak/kps: You guys make it sound so hard. The Teensy library documentation[1] makes it sound easy. Which makes me feel naive, lol. What am I missing? The only problem (if it is one) that I can see is that this might only give us 6KRO without a lot of work.
( Some relevant stuff i found, just to put it here. Sorry if everyone already knows:
- NKRO is possible with USB, but not common: geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=USB+versus+PS+2#Full+NKRO
- Phantom firmware. I thought it was NKRO, but the post says it's 6KRO, so I'd have to read/learn more to figure it out: geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26742
)
[1] pjrc.com/teensy/td_keyboard.html (with something to handle I²C) in C, or pjrc.com/teensy/td_keyboard.html and pjrc.com/teensy/td_libs_Wire.html in what looks like C++
((sorry for the links, i can't post real ones yet))
EDIT:
Don't mean to clog the thread with dev stuff. Please let me know if there's another place I should put it.
Should I come up with a "roadmap" of stuff that needs to get done? I figure, if I do that, then people can tackle each bit, and we'd get more done faster. Like we could get the CAD files, and some people can talk to local machine shops. We can get someone working on implementing i2c as communication between the halves. We can get someone looking for solutions for the connector problem (either an easy cable for I2C or a larger one for passing the matrix) etc. Then we can have a list of design decisions to be made (fer example, number and placement of thumb keys, etc.)
If I do give it a shot, which Teensy and which I2C IO expander should I use?
I do wonder about the 2.5mm jack though. The datasheet (http://products.cui.com/getPDF.aspx?fileID=7757) has a couple of types, both switched and unswitched. The consideration here is to make sure that insertion and removal of a plug while the teensy is on and providing voltage won't damage the I2C extender, though I'm probably overthinking it and the nonswitched one (CP1-42514-ND) will be fine.Yeah, I'm not sure about that either, though I'm just a programmer with a screwdriver. Personally I would use a mini-DIN connector (with at least 5 pins, and SPI rather than I²C), but connector size seems to be a major concern here.
Having tried a Datadesk smartboard as well as a Kinesis Advantage (I also own a Goldtouch and a Microsoft natural0 I am firmly against any splay. Columns should be completely parallel and keys should be close together to minimize unnecessary hand/finger movement.Trust the sordna!
I like the layout and would definitely would pay $50 for a PCB. The case isn't worth hundreds of dollars to me. I would rather just glue it down to a piece of plywood and save the money for the substantial amount that switches and keycaps will cost. Is the plate necessary or will the PC hold the switches securely?I'll put you down for PCB interest. It seems you're going key64-style on the case? Not a bad decision. You can even DIY it in acrylic relatively cheaply, and easily enough to be worthwhile.
Hehe, subtle is nice. Hmm, I still think with just a 1-2mm adjustment we can fit another thumbkey:
(Attachment) 42252[/ATTACH]
Tell me what you think!
put me on the list for one please.
Metal case please. :D The $400ish price tag isn't an issue as far as I'm concerned, but only if it takes at least another 2 months or so. Dorkvader, could you put me on your interest list? I'll be in for one if it's not much more expensive than $400.I'll add you both to the file and update later.
Yeah, I'm willing to pay for a metal case, but I think $280 for plastic is just too much.
I would be interested in make a purchase depending on final price/material.
I'ld also be interented in helping out with the Firmware development and hardware selection. Can anyone point me to the individual "In Charge" of this.
I would be interested in make a purchase depending on final price/material.
I'ld also be interented in helping out with the Firmware development and hardware selection. Can anyone point me to the individual "In Charge" of this.
I think it'd be awesome if we got some collaboration going on this project.
After thinking about it, I think metal is the way to go, and steel may well be better than aluminium. I'm thinking that the heavier metal will have a larger normal force on the desk, and therefore more friction and less slipping. Also, I really like items with heft!
I'm thinking either a clearcoated or stainless steel, or matte black/red would look the best, but that's all small stuff compared with firmware, etc.
I think it'd be awesome if we got some collaboration going on this project.
After thinking about it, I think metal is the way to go, and steel may well be better than aluminium. I'm thinking that the heavier metal will have a larger normal force on the desk, and therefore more friction and less slipping. Also, I really like items with heft!
I think it'd be awesome if we got some collaboration going on this project.
After thinking about it, I think metal is the way to go, and steel may well be better than aluminium. I'm thinking that the heavier metal will have a larger normal force on the desk, and therefore more friction and less slipping. Also, I really like items with heft!
I'm thinking either a clearcoated or stainless steel, or matte black/red would look the best, but that's all small stuff compared with firmware, etc.
If Y'all want to point me in the direction of some good firmware on teensy/atmel hardware, I'd be interested in looking at your development. I've got no experievce, so it's dubious as to how much I could help out.
I would recommend to stay with aluminum. Price/kg is about $5 and then ofc comes cutting and machining.
I might be able to help with machining for free in return of one of these. But giving no guarantees.
Yes please! :D
I was hoping you'd see this project and take interest in it.
Those who think 280$ is too much for a plastic case from shapeways.....
I got a quote from http://www.firstcut.com/
(Attachment) 43936[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 43937[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 43938[/ATTACH]
Maybe Swede could do better.
I would be happy to provide any help with this. But again I will not guarantee anything.
This all weighs on me having time to do the programming and getting approval from my school. And both are far from certain.
Also shipping from Sweden is expensive as hell.
Switches would be harder to get if they were pcb mounted
It's perfectly good to use plate mount switches, especially for a prototype.
That is a bit of a YMMV. For example, all of my switch donor boards are PCB mounted POS boards, so it's far easier and cheaper for me to come up with PCB mount switches than plate mount. Note that both can be plate mounted, it'd just be up to the PCB board designer if they can account for the extra holes. Of course, the extra legs on PCB mount switches can be cut off, but that's not really an option for me as I need them to be reusable for my own projects :)
It's a little harder to find brand new pcb mx blues from donor boards, and a little less hard for browns. Not to mention, I'm not even sure they have pcb reds.
Kinesis uses PCB reds with pins AND diodes (MX1A-L1DW) in their LF model. They sell a pack of 15 for $15.
? I'm saying I am against pcb mounted switches.
Ok, I should have expressed that more precisely.
It's perfectly fine to use plate mount switches where there is supposed to be PCB mounted ones, especially for a prototype.
There is no big difference between PCB and plate mounted switches. The only thig is that there are two extra plastic pins to orient the PCB mounted switches better. This means that it is completely possible to use plate mounted switches instead where there is supposed to be PCB mounted ones. It only takes some more care to make sure the switches are soldered in straight.
I was wondering, why connect both halves together and only one hand to USB. Wouldn't it be more flexible to give both halves their own processor and USB cable? That way you could even decide to use only one half for single-handed typing.
You could even incorporate a USB hub in the back, so you can daisy-chain the keyboard and plug in your mouse as well.
I don't really think the switch modules were designed with keycap pulling in mind.. The pegs (I guess this is a less confusing word than pin in this case) could possibly contribute to mechanical stability under normal usage as well though. But I still think the main design goal is to make sure the switches are mounted straight. Using the specified diameter for the lead holes, there is quite enough rotational play to allow for messed up functionality.
I dream about a keyboard like this.
Only con is price.
If it gets below $ 200 I would consider buying it.
This was discussed earlier in the thread, and is rather complicated to implement. For one, the two halves still need to connect to each other in some way because certain key functionality doesn't pass from one usb keyboard to another. In addition, there needs to be specific firmware logic that is then able to treat the two separate controllers and matrices as one in some way, considering the key map assignments in dual and standalone modes and such.
If you're willing to consider them truly separate keyboards when connecting them separately, it might be practical. But DOX specifically said he'd use at most 1 Teensy and 1 I/O expander.This.
This.
I got some HDMI connectors today to do some prototyping. Those pins tiny! 0.5mm pitch. Anyone know the best way to solder those with a standard soldering iron?
(Attachment) 45211[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 45212[/ATTACH]
A really fine tip with fine guage wire lol. I could do that with my 12 watt soldering iron, doubt you can do it with a radio shack iron.Alternatively, you can just flood over all the pins with a bunch of solder bridges, then suck off the excess with (normally) some copper braid.
Alternatively, you can just flood over all the pins with a bunch of solder bridges, then suck off the excess with (normally) some copper braid.
Those are surface mount, right? Will there be PCB support for if I want to -say- get some through-hole ones?
I have done the right hand PCB layout. I'll add the option for PCB mounted switch as well as diodes inside the switch.
(Attachment) 45248[/ATTACH]
....Quote from: Dox;553042I have done the right hand PCB layout. I'll add the option for PCB mounted switch as well as diodes inside the switch.How about you make the PCB accommodate cherry switches that include the diodes? (and for folks not using switches with diodes, they can still surface-solder diodes at the same soldering points. Shouldn't be hard to make the PCB take DW switches (with pins, with diodes).
(Attachment) 45248[/ATTACH]
I got some HDMI connectors today to do some prototyping. [...]
Alternatively, you can just flood over all the pins with a bunch of solder bridges, then suck off the excess with (normally) some copper braid.
Those are surface mount, right? Will there be PCB support for if I want to -say- get some through-hole ones?
After a few tries you get the amount of solder correct. After that it is a smooth experience (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t06malVew40) =)
Got I2C working the other day! And spring break's coming up, so I'm hoping (God willing) to have at the very least some beta quality firmware done by the end of next week. I'll post my documentation and code when I get it working. Sorry it's taken so long, but thanks for being patient :) .Great! I'll wait for your documentation!
G'damn these things are small. I ordered a bunch of 0402 components for using when reconstructing the Teensy directly on the main board. Time to do some practice I think, buying a finer tipped soldering iron, and finding someone willing to borrow me a stereo loupe perhaps...Man, thee things are sooo tiny, you should have gone with some 0603 or 0805.
[video=youtube;66GV4OuShzI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66GV4OuShzI[/video]
I've been interested in making something along these lines for a while, and I've done a quick mock up based on Dox's design. Mine will largely be sheetmetal based as that is the tools I have access to, so I'm looking at having the keys plate mounted and having the left and right keyboard mounted on a chair. As far as curvature goes that isn't really much of a problem for me as I can do that pretty easily, but I've been having trouble trying to determine the best direction for curvature and the dimensions.Interesting, are you going to use a curved PCB or just and wire it?
Also what have you used to draw the model and where have you sourced the switch models?
(Attachment) 47545[/ATTACH]
Tin both pads, hold the 0402 down to the board with tweezers hit 1 pad with the soldering iron briefly. Check to see if the other pad got sufficiently heated to be properly soldered. Sometimes it happens. Then finish it out.
Man, thee things are sooo tiny, you should have gone with some 0603 or 0805.
Tin both pads, hold the 0402 down to the board with tweezers hit 1 pad with the soldering iron briefly. Check to see if the other pad got sufficiently heated to be properly soldered. Sometimes it happens. Then finish it out.
As far as curvature goes that isn't really much of a problem for me as I can do that pretty easily, but I've been having trouble trying to determine the best direction for curvature and the dimensions. (Attachment) 47545[/ATTACH]It is not that easy. The edges of each switch hole have to be straight and parallel or the switches will not fit properly.
QuinRiva: that's a good looking keywell. If we could get kinesis-like keywells on this project, it would be amazing!
Couple of manufactureing difficulties:
1. it would be significantly harder to make. I imagine the only cost-effective way to get that shape would be to stamp it
2. It raises the question on how to make a "base" for it. I wolud be fine with what is shown in your image, having an "open" keyboard like that, but if there needs to be some sort of case made, I imagine it would be difficult
3. Making a PCB for that would be difficult, involving either multiple PCBs with connectors, or some sort of shaped/curved/flexible PCB
Nevertheless, the design is good, and all the issues aren't insurmountable. I imagine one could solder it point-to-point without too much difficulty. I don't know what it'd be to stamp them, though.
Right, I was about to say the same thing as Sordna, just a little different. If you want keywells, buy Kinesis keywells and make the rest of the case. Kinesis keywells are plastic but that shouldn't be a problem because there are keys on top of it so you can't see it anyway. :)
Apart from that I would say, if you're going for keywells make sure they're different from the Kinesis it would be much more interesting.
Personally I am very much looking forward to the flat version as well.
I'm sure there has to be low profile enough sockets... a lot of phones/headsets seem to have pretty compact sockets on them.
Can't the PCB have a cutaway so that the socket has more room up and down? Of course the socket should be secured by the case, not by the PCB (you would need some flexible leads between socket and PCB).No, those sockets need to be soldered/fixed on the PCB and even if I was doing that, the distance from the interior bottom to the top of the case is 16mm (13mm usable for a connector) it's still not enough.
I still like the 3.5mm (or 2.5mm) TRRS best, especially aesthetically - as long as it's possible to make it safe from shorting Vcc and any of the other 3. It looks like the size limitations are going to keep things small enough for my taste whatever gets decided on though :) .
If using 2 sockets is an option, have you looked at any of those small coaxial power connectors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_power_connector)?
Or something simple like a small 4 pin molex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molex_connector)? (Actually, I used to think this connector would be too big and not very pretty, but now I'm starting to think it might look cool...)
sordna: If you want a curly phone cable anyway, you could always cut the connectors off one and solder some others in their place. I've been sort of planning on making my own cable if I can, just to get the size and such just right.
I can't seem to find a pcb mounted 4 contact TRRS 3.5 or 2.5mm. I have to continue searching.
I can't seem to find a pcb mounted 4 contact TRRS 3.5 or 2.5mm. I have to continue searching.
Avoiding to short the Vcc is easy, just put the power on the contact that is the furthest outside of the case.
Compiling C: lib-other/pjrc/usb_keyboard/usb_keyboard.c
avr-gcc -c -mmcu=atmega32u4 -I. -gdwarf-2 -DF_CPU=16000000UL -Os -funsigned-char -funsigned-
bitfields -ffunction-sections -fpack-struct -fshort-enums -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -Wa,-adhlns=./li
b-other/pjrc/usb_keyboard/usb_keyboard.lst -I. -std=gnu99 -MMD -MP -MF .dep/usb_keyboard.o.d lib-oth
er/pjrc/usb_keyboard/usb_keyboard.c -o lib-other/pjrc/usb_keyboard/usb_keyboard.o
Linking: firmware.elf
avr-gcc -mmcu=atmega32u4 -I. -gdwarf-2 -DF_CPU=16000000UL -Os -funsigned-char -funsigned-bit
fields -ffunction-sections -fpack-struct -fshort-enums -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -Wa,-adhlns=lib-oth
er/pjrc/usb_keyboard/usb_keyboard.o -I. -std=gnu99 -MMD -MP -MF .dep/firmware.elf.d lib-other/pjrc/u
sb_keyboard/usb_keyboard.o --output firmware.elf -Wl,-Map=firmware.map,--cref -Wl,--relax -Wl,--gc-s
ections -lm
c:/winavr-20100110/bin/../lib/gcc/avr/4.3.3/../../../../avr/lib/avr5/crtm32u4.o:(.init9+0x0): undefi
ned reference to `main'
MAKE[1]: *** [firmware.elf] Error 1
MAKE[1]: Leaving directory `C:/Users/Dox/GIT/benblazak-ergodox-firmware-201e38c/src'
MAKE: *** [all] Error 2
You could probably use threaded 3.5mm connectors for extra connection strength.
Last edited by Dox; 27 Dec 2011 at 17:15.
Damn this is gonna be expensive ;( and also I don't like the shapeways idea.
Did you considered to make this projects more public so that you can find maybe company's who are willing to buy in larger scales or even sponsors?
I would buy a metal version for up to 200$ ... but this would be a miracle if this could be happen.
Pls update the first post if something changes in the design or the price since this is the first information that a informed person will get.
Damn this is gonna be expensive ;( and also I don't like the shapeways idea.As I mentioned on deskthority the case parts of the blue split keyboard would cost around 50€ or even less if optimized for it. which I find rather cheap - but for that flat design a custom PCB would also work, true. But then there would still be no case around it.
I'm sorry for the rant.
If that was a rant I think your blood sugar must be low, or perhaps you're on some depressant?There was a lot of editing...
Did you mean 6KRO or full NKRO?
I'll take a look at the layouts over the weekend if that's okay.
If anyone has some good ideas about how on-keyboard remapping could work though, I'd be interested to hear them; if only because it's a problem I couldn't think of an elegant solution to.
What do you think about the Kinesis way (http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/tech_support/remapping.htm)?
[...] you always move all characters from a key, that is unshifted and shifted. [...]
Personally I like this approach a lot, it's very easy and requires no software. No matter which OS I boot into, I always have the layout I want.
Would the controller be able to handle mouse movements?
[...] it's not possible in the firmware right now, but I think PJRC has some code that would work, so hopefully it won't be way too hard. [...]
Interested. Please put me down dork!Updated the list!
Ok, here is the new case. There is still no trackpoint.
(Attachment) 36215[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 36214[/ATTACH]
2 set of 11 plates (including the mounting plate) per hand. The plates are symmetric for the second hand. I still need to do something to give it some angle/mounting option.
To give you an idea, for 10 set of 11 plates (5 keyboards) not anodized, the cost would be around 110$ per hand (plates only).
Fossala: We're still trying to price things out. The last price update I remember was in december 2011:
Now, I imagine the cost will be somewhat lower, as the quantity will likely be an order of magnitude higher. From what I've read on machine shop prices, it might not be that much lower, though.
So if the case is $200 total, the PCB will likely come in under $100. Switches are ~$0.8*76=$60 (unless you're harvesting them from somewhere, or already bought them from 7bit), teensy is ~$18 (I think?). I don't know what the connecting cable, connectors and that signalling chip is, but I feel like it's under $30 all told.
So all in all, maybe about $400 without keycaps.
The best savings will be in the PCB. Lots of PCB fabs will get you a much better deal in quantities of 50+, which we should have. No idea about getting the case cheaper, though.
Will the keyboard have F# keys? I just noticed there are none on the rendered pics:
I'm interested in one of these! I should have a bit of keyboard soldering experience under my belt by the time this gets produced.I'll add you to the list!
This seems very steep. Hopefully the target price will be reached which will also include keycaps. $400 for an assembled board sans-caps, IMO, might be out of reach for many of us. I suppose only time will tell. If you guys are looking for volunteers related to working with the Keyboard mapping software I suppose I would be down. Seems like it could be an interesting experience.I'm hoping we can get it down under $300, as a lot of people say they're committed up to that point.
Cheers,
Will the keyboard have F# keys? I just noticed there are none on the rendered pics:Well, since it's programmable, all the keys are dedicated F keys, if you want. I imagine though that there's not a huge amount of need, especially considering the prospect of layers. You can have a dedicated "function" key to turn all the regular number keys into function keys. I imagine if you use them a lot, you can even convert some of the modifiers on the side into function keys (as I imagine I'll have more modifiers near the thumb area.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36215)
I don't really see a need for dedicated f-keys. I'd prefer to have to do it similar to the poker where you hold FN+"appropriate number" to get your f-key.
Well, since it's programmable, all the keys are dedicated F keys, if you want. I imagine though that there's not a huge amount of need, especially considering the prospect of layers. You can have a dedicated "function" key to turn all the regular number keys into function keys. I imagine if you use them a lot, you can even convert some of the modifiers on the side into function keys (as I imagine I'll have more modifiers near the thumb area.
How do you press F12 on the Poker? (used to move optical media tray in/out on Macs) :Pfn+"=/+"
Is this project still in flight? Is it Dox's project or a GH community endeavor?
I've been working ~70h a week in the last few weeks so I didn't had much time to put on this.This is why we love you, Dox. You are super busy, and still dedicated.
I have a 3 day weekend and I don't have anything planned so I want to finish the pcb layout and order it as soon as possible.
Wow, that's a good PCB, DOX!Thanks, these are 2 sided. The red traces are on the top layer of the PCB.
I especially like the profusion of mounting holes. We sholud have no trouble with flex.
Are they one-sided PCB's with a lot of jumpers, or does the red denote traces on the second layer?
Nice one, Dox! My eyes started to follow the traces - it wasn't long before I got lost.Thanks, it's quite hard to follow from the picture, especially with the ground planes.
Can u buy me a PCB set please :) I can't wait for a final kit!FYI, the prototype PCBs cost me ~300$ for 2 sets. Prices will be much lower with bigger quantity but I ordered the minimum qty just to test everything.
that's awesome, DOX!Thanks! Your firmware highly facilitate the tracing. I don't know if I have followed your intended matrix as I went for the simplest way to trace it with the assigned pins. There will probably be some remapping needed in the firmware. No big deal.
Will the PCBs be available a la carte?Yes, when everything will be ready and tested!
Nom, I'm with dirge on this! Can I buy a PCB? :DI don't think a lot of people would want to pay 150$ for a set of PCB that are not even tested yet.
Yes, when everything will be ready and tested!
Looking good, DOX! Good to see all the diode placement options. I just recently soldered SMD diodes to my KMAC. It wasn't hard at all. Just need steady hands.Thanks lister! I decided to put the SMD as it wasn't much more work and it's good to have options. I'll probably go for the trough hole ones on the first prototype as I have a few hundreds of them but I may try the SMD on the final or the second prototype PCB.
Kinesis sells individual switches?
Dox I'm loving this, get pics of those boards the moment they arrive! And I'm sure the boards would have been a bit cheaper if we'd thrown money at you for prototypes ;)
Kinesis sells individual switches?
Are those plated through-holes?
sordna, do you know how much they charge for the switches?
Pictures!
(Attachment) 51436[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 51437[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 51434[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 51435[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 51432[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 51433[/ATTACH]
(Attachment) 51438[/ATTACH]
One small problem. I have installed the diodes the same way I have done for the DoxKB but the scanning in inverted in IC07 firmware so nothing registers for the moment. I tested with a jumper and everything seem to work fine otherwise. I'll try to invert the scanning in the firmware as the diodes are a PITA to desolder in the small plated
The TRRS cable works like a charm! A HDMI cable would have been way too bulky.
Does it have no soldermask?No soldermask as it's a "prototype". The final version will have a soldermask.
Wow, that picture of it loaded up with switches, with the LED's on looks amazing! I want to convert it to ascii-art, type it up on the typewriter (I have no printer at the moment) and put it on the wall!
Now that you have the switches on a board, what do you think about the key placement? How does it feel?
So cool! Oh, can you please make sure the firmware is such that cherry switches with built-in diodes work? That's what should dictate the orientation...The way I placed the diodes on the PCB is the same orientation as the built-in diodes. So the firmware should be revised to follow this.
The way I placed the diodes on the PCB is the same orientation as the built-in diodes. So the firmware should be revised to follow this.
I quibble with your use of the word quip.QC'd.
One minor gripe: I would've preferred the Teensy to be on the left side. That way, I could run just the left half for gaming. :evil:I agree with both statements.
But nonetheless, that is just hot s***.
Oh grr, it should. I'll do that then. Might not be able to get to it for a few days though. Sorry to be busy now that things are getting so exciting, lol. I'll make time as soon as I can!No problems, I'll wait for your revised firmware. Yes, we want the rows input with pull-up. Thanks again for doing this!
So what we want (since the MCP23018 is open drain) is to have the columns hi-Z (off) / drive low (on), and the rows input with pull-up?
Dox, I don't know anything about electronics, but I noticed the right hand side has a diode per switch, but the left side hasn't... I'm curious - could you tell me why, please?There are diodes on both side for every switches. The left side diodes are just hidden behind the switches in the picture.
PS - looks really sweet!
One minor gripe: I would've preferred the Teensy to be on the left side. That way, I could run just the left half for gaming. :evil:The good thing is that you can move the halves as you wish. Just place the right hand away and place the left hand beside your mouse.
But nonetheless, that is just hot s***.
Don't know if it's possible to fit the two options in the PCB, but if yes, could you allow for the 2x thumb keys be mountable POS style as an alternative?I don't know why you would want to do this. 2 switches for 1 key = double the activation force. Not something that I would want. And the keys that fits that placement are standard keys with centered stems and standard stabilizers.
I don't know why you would want to do this. 2 switches for 1 key = double the activation force. Not something that I would want. And the keys that fits that placement are standard keys with centered stems and standard stabilizers.
Because it would allow for choosing to divide the keys into two 1x keys if desired. Never mind though, just a thought.Yeah, It could be possible, I'll see what I can do but the case/plate will only support the 2 unit keys.
Yeah, It could be possible, I'll see what I can do but the case/plate will only support the 2 unit keys.
# Documentation : Keyboard Matrix
## Matrix [row##column] assignments
* row and column numbers are in hex
* coordinates without brackets are unused
* left and right hands are mostly the same except that `row += 6` for the left
....... rows x columns = positions; assigned, unassigned .......
....... per hand: 6 x 7 = 42; 38, 4 .......
....... total: 12 x 7 = 84; 76, 8 .......
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[B6][B5][B4][B3][B2][B1][B0] [50][51][52][53][54][55][56]
[A6][A5][A4][A3][A2][A1][A0] [40][41][42][43][44][45][46]
[96][95][94][93][92][91] 90 30 [31][32][33][34][35][36]
[86][85][84][83][82][81][80] [20][21][22][23][24][25][26]
[76][75][74][73][72] 71 70 10 11 [12][13][14][15][16]
[64] 66 06 [04]
[63] [60] [00] [03]
[65][62][61] [01][02][05]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright © 2012 Ben Blazak <benblazak.dev@gmail.com>
Released under The MIT License (MIT) (see "license.md")
Project located at <https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware>
◕ ‿ ◕DAT FACE!
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22780-Interest-Check-Custom-split-ergo-keyboard&p=428524&viewfull=1#post428524
I HATE being misquoted by a moderator!
Dork, please fix.
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/split-ergonomic-keyboard-project-t1753.html?hilit=Dox
Depending on final product I will take 1-3 of them. Can't commit 100% until I know the final product and price. Looks like a great keyboard.
If I can afford it as a student, I will buy one. It looks awesome, and I'd love to have one. Keep up the good work!
I am interested in one of these as well! Please with less Tab Keys though! :D
This really does feel like it's on the cusp! However we haven't seen anything on the case yet, so I would expect at least another month before final touches are made. Excellent, excellent work Dox!I'm working on the case right now. I will order a prototype from shapeways soon (1-2 week).
Cheers,
DAT FACE!
how much are the pcbs at medium quantity? i'd be interested in assembling a few pcbs for people over the next couple of months while case designs are finalized. imo i think it's a good idea to have some pcbs percolating and being beta tested for code development and as an opportunity to make changes to the pcb before a large quantity run
btw, raw or plated pcbs can be just placed on top of soft surfaces to be used/tested, or placed into prototyped cases of various materials ;)
I'll add you all to the list presently. When I saw the tab keys I thought: How many cherry keyboards does DOX have?Haha I don't even have 1 functional cherry keyboard except my DoxKBs. The tab keys are from the SP grab bag. I'm trying to figure what are the best profile for the vertical 1.5 keys. I think the tab is working quite well.
Edit: Keep in mind that a keyset is not planned (yet) so it's up to you DIYers to come up with keycaps. Nevertheless, I believe WASDkeyboards may be a good source if a GB ever occurs. I'd get a blank keyset for obvious reasons :p
Would be interesting to get a hold of some PCB mounted MX switch bottom housing with integrated diode. That's all I really want/need since I've got plenty of switches on the way already.
You have to jump through hoops to not get plated holes when you use kicad.
I've had all sorts of strange behavior with floating pins on ICs
This type of design on a keyboard is has always been what I wanted. Esp. when reclined Vertically. I wonder if we can add that, or just let the users do this. Also, would it not be easier to do the case in a type of hard acrylic (PMMA) by submersion into casts that are vertically assigned in some sort of silicon or rubber?I think the sky and your wallet are the limits when it comes to case design and optional features.
I'll draw the idea in a few days, but basically it is a mold of the cases vertically aligned in a rubber/silica/foam cube with slits of these molds. Kinda like how cd cases are made. If you get it then I won't draw.
Also, the think I like about the size if the fact that we can abuse the Keyboard space to install an MCC or SD port to make it even boot. hehehe, we can even bootstrap a gumstix board to boot Linux with video, sound, wifi, and everything (http://gumstix.org/software-development/pre-built-images.html). God, How I love this era.
For now, lets concentrate on making this truly programmable KB. I wonder if we should do it from the keyboard, or flash the memory from an the computer? Still using the USB as power to flash the memory.
Tell me your Ideas, I know C, I can help in logic, but I do not know the advance stuff like Hex algorithms on the processor. I'd hate to use some proprietary with little documentation. I think I read this was going to be teensy, am I right? And really, I think we should not care about the BIOS compatibility. Everyone by now should have bought flashed ROMs with Phoenix Award BIOS or better yet coreboot. If you are a buyer, and say Nay, please do so.
Also, what encoding wille we use, UTF-8 or one of the latins?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Latin_character_sets_(computing)
I ask to see what I can do for output. I guess I need to read USB in a nutshell.
Also I work full time, so my contributions will be limited. I can offer a wiki if you like. Need to experiment with yawk.
PS
Behold this beauty:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lexus_LF-A_Crystallised_Wind.jpg
And is functionality:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maylan-interior-design-neue-wiener-werkstaette-interlux-roehm-_evonik-_indeustries-contemporary-light-art-sedan-chair-seats-manfred-kielnhofer-illumination-auchtion.jpg
SUSE Linux or The Attachmate Group was not part of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ted_Noten_Grandma's_Bag_Revisited_2009.jpg
If so, what encoding do you all vote? UTF 8‽ (I ask, cause there is a lot of symbols not needed in utf8⁂ lots)※
※If you can't read these, it means you are not using UTF8, and probably do not need them.
Hi guys, I'm new of GH, I found this thread looking for keyboards...and I think this project is awesome!Hello and welcome to GH! I'll add you to the list. There's been a lot of pricing discussion, but nothing is set in stone yet. It all depends on what sort of volume pricing we can get. This is just a guess, but we should be able to get the PCB under $100, and the case maybe under $200. I haven't asked around for quotes yet, though.
I wasn't able to read 43 of the 46 pages of this thread (sorry), so I'm bluntly asking: do you have an idea about when you'll be able to actually sell/ship this fantastic keyboard? And for which price approximately?
As someone previously pointed out, I also think keycaps are not mandatory...I mean, buying keycaps is not a problem as long as the keys are Cherry MX, am I wrong?
Thank you for your work.
Fede
// JTAG disable for PORT F. write JTD bit twice within four cycles.
MCUCR |= (1<<JTD);
MCUCR |= (1<<JTD);
>alaricljsStill unsure of what you're talking about. The scancode for each key is completely customizable at the hardware level by you, the end user.
Yes, but most of the scancodes are standardized HEX Interruption values that the OS decide in your favorite encoding. Most of the scan codes conform with the ISO/IEC 9995 standard. That Is why ask if you like to have another to minimize/optimize in the software overhead that UTF8 is.
Dox and ic07, Great progress so far! and very inspired.
About ghost key problem I have some words to say.
If you use port F you might want to check JTAGEN fuse bit and JTD bit of MCUCR. This JTAG configuration can prevent from operation of port F. Default fuse bit setting of Teensy makes JTAGEN fuse unprogrammed, so you won't have this program, though, I think you still should check this to make sure. See datasheet for detail.
I'd like to recommend you try this code in init function:Code: [Select]// JTAG disable for PORT F. write JTD bit twice within four cycles.
MCUCR |= (1<<JTD);
MCUCR |= (1<<JTD);
And another one, you may want to add small delay between port setting and reading port while matrix scanning. I think you can have delay in _update_rows() in teensy-2-0.c. _delay_us(1 or 5) will be enough for this.
If you don't have this delay you might have a false reading of port.
Though I'm not sure theory behind this :)
static inline void _update_rows( bool matrix[KB_ROWS][KB_COLUMNS], uint8_t column ) {
_delay_us(1);
matrix[0][column] = ! teensypin_read(ROW_0);
matrix[1][column] = ! teensypin_read(ROW_1);
matrix[2][column] = ! teensypin_read(ROW_2);
matrix[3][column] = ! teensypin_read(ROW_3);
matrix[4][column] = ! teensypin_read(ROW_4);
matrix[5][column] = ! teensypin_read(ROW_5);
}
Also, remapping at this point is only possible by modifying the firmware, recompiling, and re-flashing. Good news is, I don't think this will be too hard for anyone here, especially once I get around to writing a short howto. On keyboard remapping is being considered (but only once everything else is done). The rest is up to the OS.
I wonder how easy it would be to write up a quick frontend for changing layouts? Even if it just gave you a quick graphic of what you have, then output the proper source to flash the chip with, it'd be useful (to visual people like me)
I wonder how easy it would be to write up a quick frontend for changing layouts? Even if it just gave you a quick graphic of what you have, then output the proper source to flash the chip with, it'd be useful (to visual people like me)
.progmem.data 0x000000ac 0x348 keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty.o
0x000002a4 _kb_layout_release
0x00000154 _kb_layout_press
0x000000ac _kb_layoutFrom firmware.hex:Also,Post 17 here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?17374-My-keyboard-project). Thanks to calavera.
DOX, do you have a larger version of your avatar? I plan on using it for the About menu on the GUI, as well as making a .ico to use for the launcher. (Assuming you guys don't mind me writing up a front-end.)
Cheers,
:_kb_layout{lf}
ababababababababababababababab{lf}
:_kb_layout_press{lf}
111111121111113111111411111{lf}
:_kb_layout_release{lf}
111111121111113111111411111{lf}where ab is a byte represented in ascii, 1 2 3 and 4 are press, release, layer increment and layer decrement and {lf} is a linefeed character (0x0a in the table)ic07, I think there is a bug with the fn layer. I used the prototype all day at work and sometimes, the fn layer becomes inaccessible after some use.
I looked at the logic again last night, and it still looks right to me... Do you have any ideas? Or at least, in laborious detail, what exactly's happening (maybe this calls for a PM) lol :) . Sorry you have to help debugging stuff I wrote, but I can't think of a way to test it myself... :/ . If *any* keys are registering, those should be working too... I suppose, worst case, I can try to start rewriting the thing next week.
ic07,
It would be helpful if we can keep changes to the backend to a minimum (outside of bug fixes like this), since effh & I will be relying on consistency there to create a usable GUI. Though we'll be hacking the compiled hex directly, it would be nice to be able to know that recompilation we do will give us consistent results. I am having a hard time following what's going on in main.c, in the innermost for loop. Where do you specify a switching between layers?
Cheers,
I am having a hard time following what's going on in main.c, in the innermost for loop. Where do you specify a switching between layers?
follow up: main.c is missing an include in the repo:. Can you add that?
ic07, Make any changes you need/want to make, just keep the layout in a nice sensible array/set of arrays in "progmem". (I need to look up the details of that sometime : )
I'm interested in learning how to do some keymap-making or key layout changing. Is there some sort of documentation on how to do this:
I'm interested in
function layer (s)
Mouse buttons
Hitting both shifts activates capslock
Y'know, things like that. Are there any resources you can share?
I might come up with some proposed keymaps for people.
I'm interested in learning how to do some keymap-making or key layout changing. Is there some sort of documentation on how to do this:
Mouse buttons won't be a part of the software as far as I know. I am not sure how the Teensy would handle this, seems to me it would almost have to register as two pieces of hardware to achieve.
As far as we know, at the very least 2 layers will be available to the end users. A default and function layer.
Not yet, unless you're comfortable with C and have time for a bit of reading. I can post links to the relevant files again if you like. But since OrangeJewce and effh are going to make a GUI, I'd recommend waiting for that. I'm sure it'll be more fun to use, in any case :) .
- Function layers are being debugged. Once done, I'm sure the GUI will make them easy to work with.
- Mouse buttons are in progress, but depend on my eventual comprehension of certain things about USB... I'm trying!
- Hitting both shifts to activate capslock is a good idea. I'll see what I can do after layers work right. It /shouldn't/ be too hard.
It will basically be pretending to be two devices, if I succeed in implementing it. It's not an uncommon thing though - IIRC, several custom firmwares around geekhack have this feature (hasu's included) - I just need to figure out how to do it myself.
Would more be useful? I did the math just now, and I think there's room in flash for ~60 layers... lol. And having extra allocated won't hurt. How many do you think would be good?
One thing about layers that I am afraid many might be missing is that the harware "layers" is not the full story. The keyboard still only sends a combination of keys. There are no actual functions associated wit what the keys do in the OS. That is all up to the OS to decide. If i want for example my '1'-key to be the '&'-key on another layer that will not be the same as defining say 'SHIFT'+'1' as '&', it will not be the shift layer. That layer would be a shifted layer where the '7'-key on a layer with 'SHIFT' activated. Since it is the OS that usually handles layers it is a bit backwards to do it in the firmware. There are of course workarounds.
On the Kinesis you can remap any key to do whatever any other key does. For example the switch the location of '1' and '&', and also program macro keys. The way I understand that they handle this is by defining every keypress as a keycode along with the modifier keys used for that particular key. That is every key is defined as a tuple of keycodes that are used simultaneously. If the '1'-key is set to be a '&'-key, the keyboard woll briefly send 'SHIFT'+'7' when the '1'-key is pressed. This works, but is a lot more tedious than I think everyone here is aware of =)
This is not the full story either... say I want a layer on my keyboard where the 'A'-key is an 'α'-key (alpha), Alpha is not even in the OS keymapping, no combination of keypresses will be able to produce it.
All this may be possible to solve installing other drivers or something, but that I know nothing about, and also that wouldn't be very pretty at all...
We choose to alter the microcontroller because it's easier to do, and it works. Otherwise we'd need to craft OS specific drivers (not likely to happen).
My understanding is the Kinesis allows on the fly hardware mapping outside of the OS. Afaik, has no handle in how the keymap is stored, altered, or saved with regards to the onboard memory of the Kinesis' microcontroller. My guess is its memory is addressable and maybe they use some form of pointer system (pure speculation), and so you can shift around the addressing of the keys directly. Unfortunately for us to implement a feature similar to this would most likely consume much of the available memory on our controller and severely limit the number of layers, with limited additional benefit over a UI.
Also it may or may not take more development time than we currently have, but I defer to ic07 on this issue, since he's doing all the low level work.
My point still stands. There are more and less unsolvable layout issues working with the keyboard side alone.
What do you guys think - can this be a good replacement for a Kinesis?I've not tried a TE, but I see this as a better version of that.
And is there an ETA for the "final" prototype (including the case)?
I am deliberating getting either the Ergo Dox or the Kinesis; I can't afford both. :(
The resale value of the ergodox is likely to be close to the final price.
If you buy the Kinesis first, you will probably miss out on the ergodox. If you buy the ergodox, you'll have the option of the Kinesis later.
Good point; my impression was that the resale price of the Kinesis is reaaaally bad. Neither here nor on deskthority are people particulary interested in those. And eBay is even worse. Last Kinesis went for 25% of its original price. :(
I guess I don't understand then exactly what your point is, so I apologize. The design decision was made to work from the keyboard end to ensure compatibility with any OS, because that would mean doing a single implementation as opposed to many. There are always going to be pros and cons to any design decision.
If you would like to draft up drivers for Windows or any of the other OSes we'd be more than happy to see what it is you come up with. The more the merrier :thumb:.
Cheers,
I thought on the windows side people were pretty happy with what Autohotkey can do?It's not ideal: not easily portable, does not work with certain programs.
It's not ideal: not easily portable, does not work with certain programs.
Good point; my impression was that the resale price of the Kinesis is reaaaally bad. Neither here nor on deskthority are people particulary interested in those. And eBay is even worse. Last Kinesis went for 25% of its original price. :(
An option you might want to look into is having layer lock key combos. This way you could hit Fn-1 (or something similar) and it would switch to the 'qwerty' layer as the default until another layer lock is used. This way a user could have several alternate layouts like dvorak and colemak at a simple key combo press.
I think people would like at least 3, up to (I could imagine) 6
I'd say we should have support for 4 layers, to accommodate practitioners of NEO.
My understanding is the Kinesis allows on the fly hardware mapping outside of the OS.
...
Also it may or may not take more development time than we currently have, but I defer to ic07 on this issue, since he's doing all the low level work.
There is 1kB of EEPROM memory where the firmware can save settings from time to time. That is a lot of layouts.. Keycodes are only 1 byte, pointer probably the same. As Sordna said the Kinesis only supports swapping keys, not really remapping individual "characters". A key swapping function should be fairly straight forward to implement...
How are you looking to switch between layers?
From the keyboard's point of view, I mean. My QPAD changes the backlighting brightness by holding fn and pressing one of two other keys. Could also use some sort of 3-4 way DIP switch on the PCB.
My point is that keymappings on the OS side solves all but the portability issues.
It would be possible to implement Kinesis like remapping, but it involves tradeoffs that, the more I think about them, the less I want to make them. A complete layer (keycode + two function pointers for a 12x7 matrix, function pointers being 16 bit) is 420 bytes, which means the EEPROM could actually only hold two. We could limit special functions from maps with that capability, and store only the keycodes in the EEPROM, or I could devise a method for only storing changed layout info there; or we could limit the number of layers to two. But I don't really like the idea of doing any of that for such an (IMO) limited gain in functionality. I'm open to reconsider though, if I find that there's really enough interest.
It doesn't though. Remapping any of the 'lock' keys, for instance, is hard to do OS side. But I understand what you're saying about limitations. Personally, I'm going to use both methods (OS remapping for Greek characters and OS functions, firmware for everything else).
Storing macros in the EEPROM sounds more interesting to me. I envision those as linked lists of (key, modifiers, next pointer)-triplets. Each list item would take 4 bytes if pointers are 2 bytes.
There is also a micro SD-card adapter (http://pjrc.com/store/sd_adaptor.html) for the Teensys. Imagine GBs of data... I had plans to use one as a keylogger on my own keyboard. I haven't been experimenting any with it, but there are adapters in my home built boards.Hmm, interesting! This would also guarantee I'd never be able to take it into work and use it, though. In a similar vein, are there any good programs (linux or windows) that track how many keystrokes you've done? Sort of a mouse odometer for the keyboard. Peel free to PM me so as not to get too far off topic if you must.
...Of course you are correct. Things the OS doesn't need to know about is best kept in the dark =) I should have said that "character mapping" problems are best solved on the OS side. Once again macros might be the solution I'm actually looking for. Do I want to type 'λ' or really just "\lambda"? =D...
Hmm, I hadn't been thinking about macros; and I would think those were easier to do in the OS (or.. I use gvim, so that's where mine are). Still interesting though, maybe I'll think about them again sometime when I'm not so tired :) . Would you prefer them in firmware? If so, why?...
Hmm, interesting! This would also guarantee I'd never be able to take it into work and use it, though. In a similar vein, are there any good programs (linux or windows) that track how many keystrokes you've done? Sort of a mouse odometer for the keyboard. Peel free to PM me so as not to get too far off topic if you must.
Also< I'd lay that macro-functionality would probably be pretty useful. I can imagine using it for a number of things.
I still disagree with Prins' assertion that the OS is better for handling character mappings than the KB when you're working with a non-standard layout, but it's a dead horse at this point.
I wish I had something intelligent to contribute to this thread.Registering your interest counts as an intelligent contribution.
Registering your interest counts as an intelligent contribution.
Very intelligent, in this case.
In that case, I would like to register my interest as well!
Speaking of, which time frame are we looking at at this point? A couple of months, a year ... ?
I wouldn't be able to afford in the next two or three months, but later in the year, I'd most likely have the finances to cover it.
I've been thinking, not sure whether this has been discussed previously, as I haven't followed the thread the whole way through, will we be able to use either side of the board independently of the other? I could see myself / others wanting to use it as a gaming pad, without having to necessarily have both sides on the desk.
No. Only the right side may be used independently of the other, or at least that is the way it is being designed right now. For the left side to be active, it must be connected to the right side via TRRS cable. The reason for this is that it was decided early on by Dox, I think, that only one controller would be used, which means that one of the halves had to be chosen as the 'host' half, so to speak.
Dox had suggested that the case prototype should be arriving shortly. I am not sure if there will be a second round of PCB prototypes (move thumb keys), after that there isn't really a huge amount of work left from the hardware side. I would say it is looking like it will be in the next 2-3 months as opposed to 6-8. Maybe Dox can chime in here.
Cheers,
I think would be possible to make both halves identical using the same PCB for both the left and right half. It looks to me like there would be enough room to fit both the Teensy as well as the other IC there on top. If the PCB was done this way it would be possible to choose to use any or both halves, and also which half the USB cable would be running to.
The controller parts from the Teensy can be bought elsewhere and surface mounted, this saves some space. The ATmega chips can be run on their internal 8MHz oscillator as well, cutting the number of required components down. I've been experimenting successfully with this today =) This requires reprogramming some fuse bits though, which in turn requires reloading the bootloader, both which requires a programmer unit... And the stock bootloader as well as the LUFA one are both 4kB.
This would really not change anything (other than the PCB layout). There could be separate USB controllers on either side, or one controller and a slave side (either side being the slave/master), or a single PCB could be used as a one handed keyboard of left or right hand type. This would also double the number of same design PCBs which may or may not have an impact on price. If there are huge amounts already this doesn't make too big a difference. The main problem is the possible need to use a serial programmer to set up the controller chips. This would likely have to be done by someone from here in bulk before shipping them out to people.I may have brought up having identical PCB's. The issue is that it still has to work with it "flipped". You could maybe do this with a lot of settable jumpers (like: Set to "A" for LH and "B" for RH). Also, Trace routing becomes difficult, and the cherry keyswitches are not symmetrical, so you'd need an extra hole per switch.
I'm of course more than willing to help out with what I know about chip programming, bootloaders, PCB design and all.
I don't think you need to do almost anything at all to get it to work flipped. But I just woke up and may not have thought this through all the way. Just mount the USB controller on one side and let the slave IC location be empty, And vise versa on the other side.
The switch is unidirectional by construction. They would be the only components needing to switch side. Through hole diodes are of course "flip symmetric" as as well (Internal diodes could still be used if they are mounted "backwards").
The flippable footprint should be no problem. Internal diode and LED holes also line up when it is flipped.
(Attachment) 52840[/ATTACH]
Otherwise, everything went well. With the thumb keys a bit closer, it will be perfect!
Quit being so negative.. geesh, and by the way
Looks like there may be a PCB redesign whether you like it or not.. It is pretty quick by the way. And I do think DOX had meant to do more work on the PCB as it was. Those prototypes don't look like a finished product at all...
I think that the thumb keys are a bit too far out. The 3 furthest keys are hard to reach and my thumb is a bit too stretched in the standard (thumb on space) position.
I will put them closer for the case prototype. I will cut the thumb from the PCB and hand wire it to test it.
Don't forget that with sufficient desk space and a properly sized cable you just put the left half where you want it and tuck the right half out of the way (or vice versa). If you choose to do your own case you could even devise a scheme to stand that half on edge so even less desk space is needed.
Or for an extra ~$25 and a little work, you could put a Teensy and a TRRS connector in an altoids can, and use that for the right hand side :) .Whoah, that's brilliant, I hadn't considered that.
I count 36 keyswitches per hand from the images DOX posted here:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22780-Interest-Check-Custom-split-ergo-keyboard&p=602321&viewfull=1#post602321
So that's 72 total, right?
Well, not I am certainly tempted to justs join that group buy. Which switches do you think would fit the ErgoDox best? I am thinking either linear MX Reds, or alternatively clicky MX Blues or MX Whites (I like their sound better).
Functionality: While I understand the choice for compactness and minimalistic design, I find the lack of Function keys a serious flaw. Before you jump on me, let me explain. To me, a keyboard geared at heavy PC users should focus on being ergonomic in all aspects, including minimizing the usage of a mouse or pointing device. I use Alt+ Control + Function key combination hundreds of time a day in all sorts of programs and can't imagine using a keyboard that doesn't have these. It would drastically slow me down. (Does everybody seriously use a mouse to close a program when Alt+F4 is within reach?)
While I certainly understand your need to cut back on using the mouse, your operating system (Windows of some flavour, I figure), is not really meant for that kind of work. But even so, if you use appropriate programs, you have don't have to have special functions keys.
I don't really understand what more keys you need on that keyboard. What's missing?
So you're saying change his entire workflow and the programs he uses in order to suit the keyboard? That's a bit silly.
I'm interested in this project because of the engineering involved, so my opinion is not one coming from a potential user... That said, I wouldn't buy a keyboard without F-keys. I've been pondering designing my own board and am sorely tempted to include a 2x5 set on the left (ala Sun type-5) to have more keys. This way I can have all the f-key combos for the programs I use and then all my own combos for other uses.
Depending on the price, I might be interested too. I'll see :s.
Save for a while! It's going to be an amazing board, and there may never be another run of them again! ;)
Cheers,
While I certainly understand your need to cut back on using the mouse, your operating system (Windows of some flavour, I figure), is not really meant for that kind of work.
...I don't think it's unruly to add a few keystrokes to switch to a different layer which, say, has remapped the numrow to f'n keys, and then when finished jump back to the base layer. I understand your hesitance about not having the F'n keys, and while custom layers may not be the perfect solution, it's a heck of a lot better than nothing. This board, tbh, is probably not the most ideal for a Windows user, but it can definitely work.
Windows, which is perfectly suited for cutting back on using the mouse. You'll find that you can operate practically all commonly used Window functions and programs with a huge number of shortcuts (and many of these use the Function keys). The majority of casual PC users doesn't know this and doesn't use them, but I believe many professionals in text entry/editing related jobs DO use these. By excluding Function keys, these potentials buyers are - maybe - lost.
Yes, obviously it can work, which is why I'm definitely interested, but - like I said - it will decrease efficiency.
Are there any numbers on which OS people who are interested are using? While I appreciate this keyboard may be intended/designed more for other OS, if (at any point) this project would turn more commercial, considering the needs of Window users may make the difference between success and failure. Just by sheer numbers of potential buyers.
Ah well, I'm guessing there's no chance in hell adding Function keys will be considered at this point... and I certainly don't want to sidetrack this initiative, so moving on!
I'm probably going to have function keys for the ones on the edges (and maybe the bottom). The "inside" two keys can be modifiers (for obvious reasons) you could also assign some of the keys near the thumbs to funciton keys.
To answer another one of your questions (I should add a FAQ: Good idea) It will likely be sold as a "parts kit" form, but several members, myself included, are willing to do the assembly, though I imagine most will want some money for their time. My goal would be to get as many of these ergoDOX's in the hands of people as possible.
OrangeJewce, thanks for your comments. Yes, I gathered that most users here were developers, and appreciate they have different needs. Don't mistake my comments for criticism; just offering a slightly different perspective from a different potential target group.
Yes, I can see that as an option. I will certainly try to 'work around' the missing f-keys. No need for an image; I can think of several solutions, such as positioning my X-keys (http://www.piengineering.com/xkeys/xk24.php) in between the two sections.
OK. Excellent. Completely agree with compensating members for their time and effort!
Windows, which is perfectly suited for cutting back on using the mouse. You'll find that you can operate practically all commonly used Window functions and programs with a huge number of shortcuts (and many of these use the Function keys). The majority of casual PC users doesn't know this and doesn't use them, but I believe many professionals in text entry/editing related jobs DO use these. By excluding Function keys, these potentials buyers are - maybe - lost.
Thanks for elaborating, OJ. Perfectly clear.
By the way, is stating my intention to buy enough or do I need to do something to be added to an 'official list'.
Just want to make sure I don't miss out...
Adding a "function modifier key", much like a shift or ctrl key that only momentarily turns on the function layer when pressed, shouldn't add to much discomfort using F keys. F keys on a regular keyboard are far enough away to lose home row anyways.
you can even use a switch lock for this key \o/
sorry, meant a mxlock swtch >>
so you don't need to hold the button down?
Without having looked to close on the code, I think it should be really simple adding a if(my-fun-layer-key is pressed) send function key; else send regular key; This should be possible to do on a higher level than the I/O communication between the keyboard halves. And on this higher level nothing is particularly tricky to do yourself.
There should probably be some way of accessing the function keys no matter what. Although I use them next to never myself, sometimes they are actually necessary.
Quote from: PrinsValium;617092Quote from: Djuzuh;617106Quote from: PrinsValium;617092Quote from: Djuzuh;617070
you can even use a switch lock for this key \o/
Why on earth would you want to do that?
sorry, meant a mxlock swtch >>
Why on earth would you want to do that?
so you don't need to hold the button down?
Yes, I can see that as an option. I will certainly try to 'work around' the missing f-keys. No need for an image; I can think of several solutions, such as positioning my X-keys (http://www.piengineering.com/xkeys/xk24.php) in between the two sections.
Without having looked to close on the code, I think it should be really simple adding a if(my-fun-layer-key is pressed) send function key; else send regular key; This should be possible to do on a higher level than the I/O communication between the keyboard halves. And on this higher level nothing is particularly tricky to do yourself.
There should probably be some way of accessing the function keys no matter what. Although I use them next to never myself, sometimes they are actually necessary.
For my day to day tasks I mainly use mutt and vim in a terminal multiplexer (tmux), Firefox with the Pentadactyl plugin, and PDF readers such as llpp or mupdf, where all of the mentioned programs have vim-like keybindings. My window manager (Xmonad) also has vim-like keybindings.
I am going to have too look closer on that code some day =)I believe if you implement it as a hit to change, hit again to change back type layer switch, the MXlock works perfectly. I'm pretty sure you can set up the access-IS keyboards this way(as well as momentary) (though they don't have lock switches)
Is the locking/non-locking layer keys implemented as two separate functionalities? I had an idea to make shift locking (or act as a caps lock toggle) if it was pressed just shortly, and behave regularly when held for a longer period of time. I never got around to implement that though (as with many other things..).
I *wish* I had a workflow like that, lol. Haven't had the patience to learn yet though... I currently use gvim, chrome, and thunderbird, mostly, in Ubuntu + Gnome.
Another option, if you think it's worth a dedicated key position on the home layer, would be to define a layer key that's also an alt key, so instead of pressing alt+fn#, you'd be pressing [alt,layer]+fn# - and the alt+number keys would stay the same. I'd probably be the one to add it to the firmware, but I think it'd be a fairly trivial addition if people thought it was worth having.
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/QF6MD.png)
Minor update, still not satisfied with the look.
What's the recommended size (in px) for an icon like that?
For best results in Win 7 you should use 64x64 and either let it scale or also provide 32x32 and 16x16.Eh? I thought you should make a high res 256 x 256 icon, then provide an alternate icon for 32 x 32 / 16 x 16. The text on my mockup, for example, will cease to be very visible at 16 x 16.
Can't you make an SVG graphic? Can't Windows 7 handle that?Don't think so. Bitmaps or PNG, IIRC.
I am going to have too look closer on that code some day =)
Is the locking/non-locking layer keys implemented as two separate functionalities? I had an idea to make shift locking (or act as a caps lock toggle) if it was pressed just shortly, and behave regularly when held for a longer period of time. I never got around to implement that though (as with many other things..).
I strongly urge you not to do it. :D You are going to be entirely dependent on your very own setup, and you are going to _hate_ using anything but. Fun thing is that it sounds like a lot of work to learn that stuff, but in the end it's more for lazy people. ;-)
Yes, actually, adding that flexibility would be interesting: one would achieve an Alt+Function key press without increasing the number of keys to be pressed. Same for a Control+fn and Shift+fn.
[image]
Install:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/YzU8U.png)Config:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/mFtnJ.png)
These would be more usable at resolutions down to 32 x 32.
Dox: Did you use a font for your avatar, or is it custom?
Dox: Did you use a font for your avatar, or is it custom?A GH'er made it for him somewhere in the DOXkb topic.
...Dox: Did you use a font for your avatar, or is it custom?
A GH'er made it for him somewhere in the DOXkb topic.
---
Edit: I can't find it now. Maybe it wasn't in the DOXkb topic.
You guys mean this?Thanks Jewce! I want to use that font for any text titles, Arial just doesn't cut it IMO.
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?17374-My-keyboard-project&p=335210&viewfull=1#post335210
Cheers,
Are there any updates? I haven't really seen much on the github.
Cheers,
This thread is amazing keep up the great work! I am holding off a Kinesis Advantage for one of these babies!
Hi guys, I'm interested in it, if it's under US$300 (all assembled and ready to use) and if you ship it international.
Please keep me updated. Thanks ;)
Hi guys, I'm interested in it, if it's under US$300 (all assembled and ready to use) and if you ship it international.
Please keep me updated. Thanks ;)
Currently I don't think you'll be able to get it for that price, from DT it seemed like aluminum cases were going to be in the $200 range, and after PCBs you'd be sitting at around $250. Switches and Caps are going to come in at around another $100 (depending on type). Then add assembly and international shipping, and I don't see it going for less than $400 :'(. If you can get in on a printed plastic case it may push the cost down by $100, but I am not sure what the status is on that.
Cheers,
Hi guys, I'm interested in it, if it's under US$300 (all assembled and ready to use) and if you ship it international.
Please keep me updated. Thanks ;)
Currently I don't think you'll be able to get it for that price, from DT it seemed like aluminum cases were going to be in the $200 range, and after PCBs you'd be sitting at around $250. Switches and Caps are going to come in at around another $100 (depending on type). Then add assembly and international shipping, and I don't see it going for less than $400 :'(. If you can get in on a printed plastic case it may push the cost down by $100, but I am not sure what the status is on that.
Cheers,
Hm... If excluding shipping, it's $350 or below, please count me in. ;)
(Expects a shipping of $60)
Hi! I'm new to geekhack, but I'd like to register interest in this. I found the site at ergodox.org (based on a reference to it in my introduction thread here on geekhack), but it's a little bare. How do I go about getting one of these?
What it will all come down to is the case material. It seemed like, based on the DT discussions, DoX was going to offer only Aluminum in the official group buy, but I think The_Beast was investigating 3D printing options for plastic cases, which is where my reduced amount for cases came from.
Cheers,
So after reading through this thread (and the accompanying thread on deskthaurity), I think I've gleaned the following:
- The design of the device is all but set in stone at this point.
- Dox already has a prototype, has put it through the paces, and loves it.
- No official order has been placed yet, so most (if not all) others don't have one yet.
- At one point geekhack went down, and the deskthaurity spread started up in its absence.
- Price is looking to be over $400 at this point, bottom line.
Which site are people treating as the home for this now? GH was first, and appears to be back now, but it seems to be fairly stalled compared to the DT thread.
So after reading through this thread (and the accompanying thread on deskthaurity), I think I've gleaned the following:I forgot my DT Password, so I can't update then until I remember or reset it.
- The design of the device is all but set in stone at this point.
- Dox already has a prototype, has put it through the paces, and loves it.
- No official order has been placed yet, so most (if not all) others don't have one yet.
- At one point geekhack went down, and the deskthaurity spread started up in its absence.
- Price is looking to be over $400 at this point, bottom line.
Which site are people treating as the home for this now? GH was first, and appears to be back now, but it seems to be fairly stalled compared to the DT thread.
If interest is still high in this and progress is still being made, I'd be willing to buy one for about $500, assuming the price includes everything needed to get it working and a set of blank keycaps.
I've not read the whole 29 pages. Is there an option for Topre switches?
Making one for alps wouldn't be that difficult, but it would require a new pcb to be made.
Would that be related to a controller to work with the capacitive switches? Oh well. :( I anyway half expected all that and the switches too would be propriety and not for third party products.
Thanks for your reply :)
I'm in. No matter the cost.
For a split ergonomic keyboard with topre switches, there is the μTronAh, thanks, yes I saw that a little while ago together with a video and that board seemed to be 'wrong' in a couple or so ways, not least, the price, but I recall the slope and angle looked wrong, maybe had too few keys, either way, unlike docomoz above, alas or me price is a factor.
anyone interested in pooling together to print some ergodox cases?
bpiphany enlisted me as his beta tester.
The last remaining hurdle is the case
Why does deskthority get all the nice pictures (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/split-ergonomic-keyboard-project-t1753-480.html) ??
Copying couple of ic07's pics here, it looks sooooo nice
Prototypes are out in the field and are being beta-tested right now. The last remaining hurdle is the case, and even I still have no idea when we can expect that to be completed. You can always check out this thread on Deskthority for engineering related info.
The last remaining hurdle is the case
I'd beta test on a yoga mat case like ic07 if it meant getting this thing sooner. Function over form! Case important, but less important; not sure if I'm alone in this opinion though.
Also I'm in between contracts right now so I've got a bunch of time I could dump into this. And a nice camera to indulge forum readers! :)
yeah, without the case where is the 'ergo'?
Hah, I am one to disagree with you, because IMO it holds the greatest design and production challenge of the entire keyboard!
yeah, without the case where is the 'ergo'?
I haven't heard anything about this case being "ergo", so unless they can make it adjustable (which would be very difficult), it should be as flat and low profile as possible!
Nice to see some progress being made on this. Hopfully too many custom boards don't come out at once, sounds dumb but I don't want to have to pick between custom boards. I WANT THEM ALL ^___^
Nice to see some progress being made on this. Hopfully too many custom boards don't come out at once, sounds dumb but I don't want to have to pick between custom boards. I WANT THEM ALL ^___^
Honestly, the eDox is too unique compared to all the other custom boards. I think owning one really will make you special compared to the numerous custom TKLs.
Cheers,
I have added a built-in wrist rest. Also now I have a proper top layer thanks to DOX.Excellent!Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/QG4S3.png)
click the picture to see the larger version that is not weird :-)
I have added a built-in wrist rest.
I have added a built-in wrist rest.
I like the idea of a built-in wrist rest, but I'd be worried about disagreements stemming from details surrounding it (padding/firmness, surface texture, wrist rest dimensions for different hand sizes, etc), and potential setbacks surrounding the discussion. Is this just for the prototype that you've been testing or are you suggesting this for the full run of cases? Is there a plan for people who don't want it?
Now with wrist rest
Now with wrist rest:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/0azLl.jpg)
And a view of the encased Teensy and other parts:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/pCBXf.jpg)
I am so happy to have stumbled upon this marvelous project. Just knowing of its existence has relieved me of immense frustration. I've been fumbling with a recently bought Typematrix and scouring the internet for alternatives, cursing the cluelessness of industrial keyboard designs, until I almost at random landed on the key64 page. The moment I saw the design, I burst out in maniacal laughter; it was as if my every plea had been answered. Thanks to this thread, I now live with the hope of seeing these answers materialize under my running fingers. At last, I rest.
Anyway, I'm in for USD ~350. Accept Bitcoin for payment, and I'll send some delicious Danish beer on top.
what about having the wrist wrest area a separate piece and attach with neo magnets so you can snap it on and off.This is a good idea: I have about 20 of these from broken magsafe boards out of apple computers (Apple doesn't want the old magsafe 'boards back)
I posted this over at DT:
This is a great time for crowd funding to get the project moving forward, and fits perfectly with the working-prototype stage the project is at: PCBs/electronics basically done, case options coming together.
Discrete levels of funding through perks/rewards matches our varied interest here at DT and GH (just pcbs, pcbs+electronics, full kits, plastic vs metal case, etc). It also opens up the possibility to make a more attractive package by offering keycap sets, switches, and/or assembly. Having the closest we can to a complete keyboard will help attract more people outside of GH/DT, which is better for everyone's bottom line. It also takes care of the pre-order money issue as it's a large entity holding the funds.
Now, this all hinges on people getting behind the project, handling things like shipping logistics and communication. Since I just rolled into this project a couple weeks ago, I don't really know what roles people have stepped up to. If no one has done so already I'll start crunching some numbers to get a good idea of costs and target prices for something like indiegogo.
This looks like a great keyboard, and I'd like to help make it a reality.
Why was crowdsourcing ruled to be too costly up front? AFAIK, indiegogo would run the campaign and if it was successful, they would take their 4% cut and release the money to the organizers who could then make the purchases for everything in bulk and get those balls rolling.
We get 30-60 days to collect money and target a completed product/kit 2-4 months down the road from that. It seems like the optimal model for getting as much money up front to order at higher qty. It also creates a sense of legitimacy to mitigate people's aversion to handing over a few hundo to a GH/DT user before we have everything together. This legitimacy would also be much more attractive to people outside of this community, leading to higher qty.
Once that chunk of money is available, we can start placing orders for the PCBs, electronics, and/or switches and ship them out as kits earlier while the case designs and keycaps get sorted out. So it would benefit people like me, who are card-carrying members of PCBNAO.
This is definitely more work than a simple group buy would be. But the scope of the project and the costs involved might require something more than simple group buy organization.
QuoteHave you thought about broadening the audience a bit? Throw it on Kickstarter and get 100 people to pay $300. It couldn't hurt.I thought about it but with my current job, I don't have the time to manage something like this.
this thread is 31 pages long and the DT thread is 22. 53 pages of searching ain't worth it.
I would rather not have my money tied up for an extra 3-4 weeks while some others get PCBs earlier because that's all they want.
One thing to consider is this board is already expensive. 15% on top...
this thread is 31 pages long and the DT thread is 22. 53 pages of searching ain't worth it.
I'll take your word for it!I would rather not have my money tied up for an extra 3-4 weeks while some others get PCBs earlier because that's all they want.
Your money would only be held for an extra amount of time if the case designs were done and ready to order before the campaign was finished. It's not like anyone would sit around with the money while they twiddle their thumbs. When parts are ready to be ordered/manufactured, they should be. When parts come in to fulfill orders, the orders get shipped out. People getting their PCBs sooner doesn't make the complete kit come any later.
Is it just a lead time issue? You would only want to pay when the case design is finalized and you're only 2-3 weeks away from getting your parts instead of 6-8 weeks?One thing to consider is this board is already expensive. 15% on top...
Indiegogo takes 4%. Where is this 15% coming from? This is a moot point as MassDrop looks much much better for our needs here, but I have a different understanding than you of how it would have worked with indiegogo.
As far as the IP problems are concerned, ErgoDox is under the GPL so AFAIK, anyone could sell a version of it, but they might have to change the name. Having said that, I consider dox the owner of this project and wouldn't like to see anyone do a commercial run without his involvement or blessing.
Massdrop works really well for the kit buy logistics solution but really unnecessary for buying key caps from SP. Anyone have any ideas oh how to get a custom PBT set for these unique layouts?
A lot of my concerns were put to rest by bisl's firsthand account with talking to a Massdrop rep. I still don't know what their fee would be, and it would be interesting to know.
But through who? IMSTO? MOQ is 500...
Multiple members met with them IN PERSON. Including myself... Basically the deeper the discount they get you the better cut they get. Hopefully BD will weigh in on this buy soon.
Multiple members met with them IN PERSON. Including myself... Basically the deeper the discount they get you the better cut they get. Hopefully BD will weigh in on this buy soon.
So we have to hope that the prices start low? Seems like a strange business model to me, since allegedly they are passing that additional tier savings back to us? Since when is imsto's moq 500? I thought it was 100?
Cheers,
MOQ: 300 sets, currently at: 205 paid sets.
I've been following this project with great interest from almost the beginning and have been impressed with the contributions made by several people to make this thing happen. I've also been impressed by how long the process takes when it's all done by volunteers whose interest is divided by also having to make a living.
Would it help if someone was willing to put money up front to have the pcb's manufactured? It seems that there wouldn't be too great a risk to order 50 or so pairs of boards. At $40 per pair that would only be $2000. This would allow the less patient to get started sooner at volume buy pricing and I don't think it would hurt the other aspects of the development.
I could fund the initial order but have no knowledge or time to distribute the orders.
If this can help the process let me know.
The amount of interest in this keyboard makes me wonder if this thing can be taken beyond a group buy.
What's the difference between "1. Full Kit" and "6. Full kit + Cases + PCBs"? Is it about assembling?
What kind of case we are voting for atm: aluminium, acryllic, smth else? Or is it still TBD?
What's the difference between "1. Full Kit" and "6. Full kit + Cases + PCBs"? Is it about assembling?
What kind of case we are voting for atm: aluminium, acryllic, smth else? Or is it still TBD?
They've made a separate poll for the case type (http://www.massdrop.com/poll/ergo-dox-case). I don't believe this will be a winner-take-all thing, but rather just for them to gauge who wants what so they can shop the orders accordingly. I believe everyone is getting what they want in this case.
Does anyone know what could be the price difference between 3D-print vs acrylic case? At least some very rough numbers.
If the difference is actually not that big, then I would vote for 3D-printed with wrist support (which is currently missing in the poll) - personally don't like transparent cases.
3D-printed with wrist support (which is currently missing in the poll)
It's not a simple combination of features: the project started with case designs that had no wrist rests, and then Litster (while experimenting with acrylic plates) opted to create the wrist rest extension. There are no 3d printing designs that include wrist rests that I'm aware of.
So I'm guessing no one is planning a group buy in the U.S.?
So I'm guessing no one is planning a group buy in the U.S.?
It would be really great if all the cables would be detachable (mini usb to the computer, and between the parts of the keyboard). I imagine only connecting the one handed part would be great for gaming.
Can't, the controller is in the right side
It's not completely impossible to move the controller to the left hand side. The Teensy is simple enough to mount inverted. The USB connector is connected through wires which makes it easy to correct for mounting upside down. Bending all the legs of the expander IC over backwards makes it possible to mount it upside down, just like the Teensy. Depending on the case It may also be possible to just put the switches on the "wrong" side.
there are 4 holes where you could screw in legs like the ones you get with KMACs.
What i want to know is how they do quality control with a project like this.
Anyway, I voted on the massdrop.com poll. As far as I understand, they will start the group buy in January and ship to every country, right?
There are tons of people who offer assembly services
if i am reading this correctly the key caps will be a separate group buy?
$$$$
if i am reading this correctly the key caps will be a separate group buy?
$$$$
That is correct, go vote in the poll!
There are tons of people who offer assembly services
There are tons of people who offer assembly services
That is true, but no place to look them up directly. Might be a good idea to get an IC going, the number of people who may want assembled could overwhelm a single individual.
There are yet more people that do assembly that aren't working on Phantom/GH60.
With the screw based case construction you can experiment with different slants to find what position works best for you. In addition to slant customization, you can also fully customize the keyboard layout and reprogram the teensy board (uses Arduino software) to make the keys trigger whatever functions you desire.
Omg, it's here!! ;D
I have some questions though about the group buy text:QuoteWith the screw based case construction you can experiment with different slants to find what position works best for you. In addition to slant customization, you can also fully customize the keyboard layout and reprogram the teensy board (uses Arduino software) to make the keys trigger whatever functions you desire.
What do they mean by that? As far as I understand the cases available are flat and not slanted, right?
They also say there will be the choice between full hand and classic case.
Full hand case means the one with hand rest?
Which do you think is the more ergonomic choice?
Another question I couldn't find the answer for:
How high (in cm) is the case? On the pictures it looks quite high which might be not really ergonomical.
And last, but not least:
I'm a total switch noob. I only know that I dislike switches that need a lot of force to push.
So I guess maybe the blue switches would be the right choice?
I appreciate your help!
Browns are not on offer due to availability, no more than that.
so I'm guessing we are not able to purchase an extra set of pcb's?
Yeah, I'll probably end up doing both group buysIs there already another group buy running?
looks like this is live on that massdrop site...
i really want red switches... why aren't they available?
i really want red switches... why aren't they available?
I've found reds are hard to find.
i really want red switches... why aren't they available?
I've found reds are hard to find.
My 1st post. Greetings to all @ GH. :) Base on mouser for mx switches. Reds are on backorder till march. Browns are supposely having shortages elsewhere. With demands there are bound to be shortages i guess.
Asked them a few questions about it on the massdrop chat and if I like the responses I think i'll be down for one. Want to see the build guide first though because where they've put 'Here is a link to our instruction manual', I don't see a link?
Well I commited to buy from massdrop, just want the board, and this seems the simplest way to go about it. I'll probably just end up selling the switches from it and using my abundant vintage blacks for it.
Asked them a few questions about it on the massdrop chat and if I like the responses I think i'll be down for one. Want to see the build guide first though because where they've put 'Here is a link to our instruction manual', I don't see a link?
Well I commited to buy from massdrop, just want the board, and this seems the simplest way to go about it. I'll probably just end up selling the switches from it and using my abundant vintage blacks for it.
There was a lot of interest on DT as well it seems, but there is major hate towards mass-drop there.
There was a lot of interest on DT as well it seems, but there is major hate towards mass-drop there.
DT is inexplicably toxic towards massdrop, or really towards progress of any kind. If I were acting in my own self-interest and not the best interest of the buy, I would have stopped posting there long ago and updated only here.
But hey, if there is a single person monitoring only the DT thread that ends up buying in, I guess it was worth it.
Have done already, only reply I've had so far was a standard marketing blurb about the ErgoDox.
Worst comes to the worst I can get someone to get an extra set of PCBs and post them out to me then sort out teensy, diodes, etcetera myself.
Basically, my line of thinking is that no matter what, I'll have some kind of squishy wrist rest under my hands--the built-in wrist rest basically just determines the height, and whether I have one big one (no rest) or two small ones (rest). Also, one thing to consider is that Ergodox enables you to have your two halves spaced as far apart as you want, so maybe the two-small-pad method is best; in that case the design with the rests is best. it's worth noting that having the pad sitting on the case's built-in rest keeps the pad in place relative to the keyboard, whereas the case without the rest could potentially scoot away from the rest or something.
Food for thought.
I would like to have an extra set so I can switch out having blues and browns
And one last noob question: if I want to change the switches later on (because I have no idea which I want, will be my first mechanical keyboard ;D ), does it mean I need to unsolder all of the switches?
I think we'll make it no problem. there is all kinds of crazy interest in this, especially once we spread the word.I'll be sending out a mass PM to everyone interested.
Have done already, only reply I've had so far was a standard marketing blurb about the ErgoDox.If you need, I can help you with this.
Worst comes to the worst I can get someone to get an extra set of PCBs and post them out to me then sort out teensy, diodes, etcetera myself.
Hmm. Didn't notice there was a plate.. damn lol. I guess I would just get twoThe PCB looks just like the one bpiphany designed, and has holes for PCb or plate-mount switches.
Hmm. Didn't notice there was a plate.. damn lol. I guess I would just get twoYou can see it in the instructions: https://www.massdrop.com/dox-ergo.php
And one last noob question: if I want to change the switches later on (because I have no idea which I want, will be my first mechanical keyboard ;D ), does it mean I need to unsolder all of the switches?
It's possible to change out the stem/spring without desoldering. There are some threads around here, and you can find videos on youtube.
DT is inexplicably toxic towards massdrop
Dorkvader,
The ultimate goal will be that when people get the keyboard, they will have access to our open source UI and firmware, which will allow them to use either the default QWerty / ic07 layout or any other layout of their choice (the software will automatically do any compiling and hardware flashing necessary). The UI will be Windows only, XP and above. If you're running linux, you'll have to manually edit the firmware, compile it, and flash the teensy 2.0 controller manually.
Mouse buttons won't be a part of the software as far as I know. I am not sure how the Teensy would handle this, seems to me it would almost have to register as two pieces of hardware to achieve. As far as we know, at the very least 2 layers will be available to the end users. A default and function layer. If you'd like to know what the default currently is, I point you to the source, or to sit tight until I can make a prototype UI available which will allow the designing of any custom layout of your choice. Let me know if you have any questions as I would be glad to help!
Cheers,
OJ
I didn't know Massdrop was going to run this. I put in an order myself today. We can definitely work something out for these kits. Pricing will be higher than a normal set due to the number of 1.5 keys needed. When we order in normal 104 key sets, so one of these sets would use up 6 sets worth of 1.5 keys. If there's some interest from at least several people, I can put together a new layout file for everyone to use specifically for the ErgoDox. For pricing, we would be looking at around $80 per set.
What's the count at, or is it not published?Currently at 18, the count is on the massdrop 'site
18 sold, 11 buyers committed to buy if it reaches a certain price point and 59 people watching.
We need 100 sold to get to the 199$ price point.
18 sold, 11 buyers committed to buy if it reaches a certain price point and 59 people watching.
We need 100 sold to get to the 199$ price point.
So I assume that if Sold+Committed = 100 then it rolls over to $199? (ie. you could have 25 sold, and 74 committed, and as soon as there is one more commited, it becomes 100 sold?)
So I assume that if Sold+Committed = 100 then it rolls over to $199? (ie. you could have 25 sold, and 74 committed, and as soon as there is one more commited, it becomes 100 sold?)
got your pm DV! Although I'm already committed to buy!
Not sure if it matters but I didn't receive a PMThanks, I'll look into it. Yours should have gone out in the first batch. I'll send you one personally, so you can see what it looks like.
18 sold, 11 buyers committed to buy if it reaches a certain price point and 59 people watching.
We need 100 sold to get to the 199$ price point.
18 sold, 11 buyers committed to buy if it reaches a certain price point and 59 people watching.
We need 100 sold to get to the 199$ price point.
Even though there are 17 days left, I find myself hitting f5 a lot... it's now 20 sold...
Thanks, I'll look into it. Yours should have gone out in the first batch. I'll send you one personally, so you can see what it looks like.
I would highly recommend PCB mount even with the acrylic plate, however they are not strictly necessary. I also do not know what MD is supplying.
I'm sure you will be able to find a buyer wasabah. I'm leaning towards two kits so I can have one at work and one at home. I'm still debating if I want the full-hand or the standard cases, though.Work&Home: good idea.. damn! :D
I wish they'd put up a image for the aluminum case.
It doesn't say whether they are pcb or plate mount, but from what i've seen in the photos (https://www.massdrop.com/dox-ergo.php) the examples that they have shown appear to be PCB mount switches.
It have a slope if you look at the side picture but it was easier to only model some flat spherical keycaps. Final keycap shape is not determined yet and my be left to the user.
Yes the headers are for connecting the 2 halves.
Switches are priced in the GB at about $0.50 each, unfortunately not enough to do a 1:1 swap for the aluminum case.
It doesn't say whether they are pcb or plate mount, but from what i've seen in the photos (https://www.massdrop.com/dox-ergo.php) the examples that they have shown appear to be PCB mount switches.
https://massdropinc.s3.amazonaws.com/img_bucket/ergo-dox-instruction/_W3T1930.jpg
I have been really interested in the Ergodox forever and ever!
But I never, ever, ever clicked on this thread because the thread title does not say anything about ERGODOX so WHY would I click on this thread?! GRRR.
I would really love flat spherical keycaps or flat cylindrical, or all keycaps have a small slant.
...
Having all keys be the same profile is Awesome.
I wish this was available in red switches.
Will this keyboard work with a PS/2 adapter?
I see no real reason to put the controller on the left side if you are not building a left hand only keyboard. And I didn't have a good look at the case either right now. But if it is layered wouldn't you be able to simply flip each layer upside down before putting them together to mirror the design?
Hey litster, do you have your E-Dox case files posted somewhere? http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/5705699
Ah. Well at least we know the other forums are excited about the E-Dox too! :D
Will this keyboard work with a PS/2 adapter?
OJ ygpm.Ah. Well at least we know the other forums are excited about the E-Dox too! :D
Smalls ygpm.
Cheers,
OJ ygpm.Ah. Well at least we know the other forums are excited about the E-Dox too! :D
Smalls ygpm.
Cheers,
Cheers, :))
No sir, he was just asking me to build his board(s). :)OJ ygpm.Ah. Well at least we know the other forums are excited about the E-Dox too! :D
Smalls ygpm.
Cheers,
Cheers, :))
You guys making your own acrylic cases?
Do u have any proof that these "real PS/2 adaptors" actually exist and where could I buy one?Will this keyboard work with a PS/2 adapter?
The USB code is from PJRC for now, and conforms to the keyboard USB Boot Spec - i.e. the computer sees it as a regular, normal USB keyboard. Real PS/2 adaptors should work, as far as I know.
Passthrough adaptors (what the cheap ones usually are) almost certainly won't. I haven't tested either.I was already told they won't work.
I looked at a pic of the Ergodox and saw no FN key. Where is the FN key?
How does one generate the keycodes of the Function keys?
Can all other ANSI standard keycodes (the standard keys available since at least 1985 or before) be generated?
Or is this keyboard like the new Matias, CoolerMaster, etc. etc. etc. (lots of companies have been banishing keys) keyboards where certain standard keycodes are impossible to generate?
Thanks Glod :) . Ya, it's based on the Kinesis layout, but I did change a few things. The function layer is based on that of the Arensito layout (though, I failed to mention that in the current version of the source). Here's a prettier picture of all the layers, just for reference. Similar things for all the currently compiled layouts can be found in the .zip files for the binaries (follow the link in the readme, here (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware#downloading-binaries)).
(Attachment Link)
@TC:
Lol, nope, no proof... and a quick search didn't turn up anything either, sorry :/ . I have no idea what the other keyboards you mention are using to make themselves work on both USB and PS/2, so I dunno what to tell you about that. Guess I can't be much help :/ .
Do u have any proof that these "real PS/2 adaptors" actually exist and where could I buy one?
Do u have any proof that these "real PS/2 adaptors" actually exist and where could I buy one?
How about the famous blue cube (http://www.amazon.com/PS2-Keyboard-To-USB-Adapter/dp/B000BSJFJS/) adaptor? Works great with both my Model M and Kinesis Classic.Show Image(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21YWRCC1F7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
@TC:Ok good to know :)
There are both layer shift and layer lock keys on the default QWERTY layout.
As for PS/2 support: The USB portion of the code is from PJRC. I haven't had time to rewrite it myself (though, I think the original author did a pretty good job). I know of one or two other libraries I could have used, but they looked harder to work with, and none of them supported PS/2. The rest of the code I wrote myself, in my free time, for free (and fun :) ). Please don't ever tell a developer that (to paraphrase) they downloaded their free open source code, and they really should go downloaded a different one. It's quite a bit insulting.I apologize if I did not word things well. I'm dying. I'm on hardcore drugz. I am wiped out tired. My POS Rosewill keyboard keeps flashing lights at me and doing freaky things (like eating my keys or making the alt key get stuck even though I never pressed the Alt key in the first place, etc.) Its hard for me to concentrate tbh. I am really sorry. I didn't mean to be insulting. :-[
Browns are not on offer due to availability, no more than that.
ah ok
Also, 7bit has a date of 01/2013 for the same:If I would want to order these for the Ergodox (complementing the Massdrop group buy), which would I need?
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html
I apologize if I did not word things well. I'm dying. I'm on hardcore drugz. I am wiped out tired. My POS Rosewill keyboard keeps flashing lights at me and doing freaky things (like eating my keys or making the alt key get stuck even though I never pressed the Alt key in the first place, etc.) Its hard for me to concentrate tbh. I am really sorry. I didn't mean to be insulting. :-[
I didn't mean u should replace the code you have. Your code obviously works so no need to change it AFAICT. I just meant that there surely must be free PS/2 controller code floating around somewhere that could be added in, in addition to the USB code, given that PS/2 has been around for 30 years (or however long, I think PS/2 is actually just a shrunken DIN5 which has been around way longer than 30 years).
I have a vague memory that I saw a PS/2 controller somewhere... it was probably on opencores.org
I will offer you a $200.00 bribe :) but u can call it a bounty :) to add PS/2 support to the controller. I am sorry that I cannot offer more but I don't have an ergodox, and there is no guarantee that I will ever get one, or that it will really and truly allow me to begin coding again. Also if I get an Ergodox it might cost a really HUGE amount of money to pay someone to put it together for me. Nobody has actually offered to put it together for me at any price. I absolutely cannot ever build one myself. I can barely sit in a chair and shove the mouse around. No way I can do anything more complicated than that. But I can send $$$ with AmazonPay.
For those interested in a fully assembled product, below are a list of people on GH willing to help. PM and coordinate with them for a quote.
TheProfosist (USA) (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=12209)
DorkVader (USA) (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=13303)
Geekabit (EU) (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=16736)
Dirge (UK) (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=16113)
localredhead (?) (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=22209)
It does mean a lot to me and it means a lot to various other ppl out there who are reading this msg but are like I was, they are in READONLY mode and are unable to type due to their hands being trashed.I apologize if I did not word things well. I'm dying. I'm on hardcore drugz. I am wiped out tired. My POS Rosewill keyboard keeps flashing lights at me and doing freaky things (like eating my keys or making the alt key get stuck even though I never pressed the Alt key in the first place, etc.) Its hard for me to concentrate tbh. I am really sorry. I didn't mean to be insulting. :-[
Thanks... I'm sorry too. I guess I'm a bit touchy at the moment, probably because of some of the more heated discussions that happened over on DT a little bit ago. I should have been more patient :/QuoteI didn't mean u should replace the code you have. Your code obviously works so no need to change it AFAICT. I just meant that there surely must be free PS/2 controller code floating around somewhere that could be added in, in addition to the USB code, given that PS/2 has been around for 30 years (or however long, I think PS/2 is actually just a shrunken DIN5 which has been around way longer than 30 years).
I have a vague memory that I saw a PS/2 controller somewhere... it was probably on opencores.org
I will offer you a $200.00 bribe :) but u can call it a bounty :) to add PS/2 support to the controller. I am sorry that I cannot offer more but I don't have an ergodox, and there is no guarantee that I will ever get one, or that it will really and truly allow me to begin coding again. Also if I get an Ergodox it might cost a really HUGE amount of money to pay someone to put it together for me. Nobody has actually offered to put it together for me at any price. I absolutely cannot ever build one myself. I can barely sit in a chair and shove the mouse around. No way I can do anything more complicated than that. But I can send $$$ with AmazonPay.
Your bribe (*cough* bounty, lol) is very generous :) . And if it really means that much to you, I'd be very tempted to do it for free, if I could.
Unfortunately, my main problem is that I don't have *time* :/ or enough domain knowledge to do it quickly. This weekend I have work, the next two weeks I'm visiting my grandparents (who I can't very well neglect, lol), and for most of the next few months after that I'll be back in school... And as I've never dealt with PS/2 before (or USB, for that matter, which is why I'm still using a library), or many of the Teensy functions a PS/2 library would be using (interrupts and timers come to mind), I don't think my chances of success in any reasonable amount of time would be good.I was not expecting any progress for at least 3 months. Long after the group buy is over. That is why I was saying it may never benefit me in any way.
In fact, I had an experience not that long ago trying to integrate code I didn't have time to understand when I tried to get mousekeys into the firmware. There's a nice library for making the Teensy emulate a mouse, and lots of other people have done it - but I couldn't figure it out at the time, and I still haven't had time to go back and make it work. So, I'm sorry... but I'm sure you can understand.Coding alien systems is a batch. And I don't mean it like a file of script commands :))
In the meantime, I was able to find an active USB -> PS/2 converter (http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-Keyboard-Mouse-Adapter-PS22USB/dp/B0055PKVZY) :) . It's crazy expensive, and it only has one (very bad...) review... but lol, at least it's proof they exist :) .If it doesn't even work then it doesn't exist. :)
a great ergonomic keyboard to help your health issuesthis remains to be seen
Either PCB mount or plate mount would work, the ergodox PCB can accommodate both kinds (which is awesome). PCB mount might be better IMO, since they have a pair of strong plastic pins which go into additional holes of the PCB, making the construction sturdier.
However PCB-mount switches usually cost a bit more.
I think the keyboard has 76 keys, so 80 should be enough to cover any accidents, although I notice the massdrop assembly instructions mention they provide 88.
Yup, I get the same either way.
More than anything else, the pins give the switch the proper orientation. One thing I noticed with the Phantom plate was that the switches could rotate slightly, especially the keys that had multiple positions (mods, space, etc). This is a problem for stabilized keys, especially space, which can't afford any rotation at all.
This is what I keep getting :(
https://www.massdrop.com/php/APIError.php
PayPal API Error
The PayPal API has returned an error!
TIMESTAMP: 2013-01-12T22:47:45Z
ACK: Failure
VERSION: 65.1
BUILD: 4181146
L_ERRORCODE0: 10400
L_SHORTMESSAGE0: Transaction refused because of an invalid argument. See additional error messages for details.
L_LONGMESSAGE0: Order total is missing.
L_SEVERITYCODE0: Error
True, but I find it hard to believe that it won't help.a great ergonomic keyboard to help your health issuesthis remains to be seen
Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting
some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palms
rather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will do
the trick? Ideas anyone?
Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting
some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palms
rather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will do
the trick? Ideas anyone?
Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting
some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palms
rather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will do
the trick? Ideas anyone?
Is my wrist rest case design not available from massdrop?
Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting
some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palms
rather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will do
the trick? Ideas anyone?
Is my wrist rest case design not available from massdrop?
As far as I know it is. This is your design, yes?:Show Image(https://s3.amazonaws.com/massdropinc/product-images/fullhandcase.jpeg)
It is available, but I wanted something soft. I guess I could just add one of these: http://www.amazon.com/GRIFITI-Notebook-Silicone-Reposition-Travelling/dp/B00897D3OQ/ref=pd_sbs_pc_1
to it, but I think that a separate palm rest would be better for me.
The Ergodox is not my idea of my dream keyboard. It simply appears to be less crazy than a Kinesis Advantage and it seems like it is made by ppl who are actually trying to solve a problem. Since they seem like they are trying I am willing to go ahead and spend the bucks to buy it and pay someone to put it together for me if someone will fix the USB/PS/2 issue.True, but I find it hard to believe that it won't help.a great ergonomic keyboard to help your health issuesthis remains to be seen
if someone will fix the USB/PS/2 issue.
/snip
1. The thumb buttons are built into the hand buttons. I never asked for that and don't exactly want it due to this makes the keyboard as a whole take up a huge amount of deskspace. This means the keyboard either: A) Won't work for me. B) Will work for me but it will always be hanging off the edge of my lapmat or the edge of my rollerdesk and eventually will fall off and break.
Rule #13 The keyboard shall not be any higher than neccessary or extreme arm pain shall cause paralysis or death.
Rule #2. If you break Rule#1 then you MUST keep the mouse right in front of you. None of this nonsense keeping the mouse way up on a tall desk out beyond your numeric keypad.
How do you know it actually works? Have u tried it? What if there is a bug in the controller software so that you can redefine any key you want except the layer keys? That is exactly the kind of bug/limitation I would expect.The board is built with a teensy microcontroller. If there is a bug in the software you can replace the software since the source is available. Looking at the source, it should be possible to change the layer keys. If there actually is a bug the rest of us would want to know about it and fix it.
Because PS/2 keyboards work on everything.if someone will fix the USB/PS/2 issue.
Why is it an issue for you that it needs to be PS2?
Need more than 6KRO?It is a very nice feature. And I respect nice features. It says to me "This keyboard is WORTH the $800.00 you paid for it". But whatever.
Legacy pass-through devices,Yes. This is required.
or using it on an old system?Yes. This is required.
> Dude, you can like totally redefine the layer keys to be shift keys.From looking at the code, as far as I can tell, they define every key function from a matrix, and then assign them to their proper positions. This means that every key is arbitrarily assigned, generally speaking it should mean that if it works at all, it will work other ways, too. The function key position is not hardcoded, because no key is hardcoded. Even on my access-IS keyboards, you can arbitrarily assign the function keys. When I get my ErgoDOX, I fully plan on testing out some interesting custom layouts. Moving the function layer-swap key is a useful thing that I'm certain I'll try. I also want to play with a layout with my most-used Function keys on it without the need for pressing a fn key to get them. This is one of the many good parts about a programmable keyboard.
How do you know it actually works? Have u tried it? What if there is a bug in the controller software so that you can redefine any key you want except the layer keys? That is exactly the kind of bug/limitation I would expect.
If I could redefine the layer keys to be elsewhere, which other keys would I destroy? This is why a keyboard needs a few extra keys on it so you don't get jammed up just because you want some extra shift keys.
You see, switching to Ergodox is a risk.
If you want to be critical of the ErgoDox and split keyboard designs, i wouldn't suggest doing that here, i would create a new thread doing so.I am not trying to be critical of the ErgoDox.
If you want to be critical of keyboards that do not support PS/2 such as Topre and others then also create a thread doing so instead of doing that in a unrelated thread. Creating a new thread is easy and there are multiple forums with different categories to create threads in. You are likely to get more accomplished in a new thread about your concerns than in posts you drop in on.I will take that under consideration.
The MassDrop GB seems to be a success, and people who are new to geekhack who were brought here by interest in the ErgoDox are going to see your posts in here and feel less inclined to participate altogether. This is exactly what happened lately in the Deskthority.net thread; things were very constructive in the thread and then it went to hell and actually caused people to loose interest in the ErgoDox the way i see it; thankfully DorkVader came to action.I think you have misunderstood something. I like u and would not insult u.
I am not trying to "troll" you and get you worked up but you have insulted me,
you have insulted ic07,GRRR