Author Topic: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.  (Read 572747 times)

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Offline CommunistWitchDr

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2900 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 00:11:50 »
So how hard do you think the transition from ANSI layout to edox layout is?
zxcv took a tad bit of getting used to, b and k a bit too but less than zxcv. The rest was easy because I put everything where it felt like it should go.

Offline kaltar

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2901 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 01:22:24 »
The great thing of the ergodox is that you can map it as you want. you can also define a permanent layer for programming.

Offline eviltobz

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2902 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 03:40:33 »
So how hard do you think the transition from ANSI layout to edox layout is?
about as hard as the transition from being brutally attacked by a gang of armed thugs to being sensually massaged by a group of the most stunningly gorgeous & attractive people you could ever dream of having intimate sensual times with. it's a little bit odd. not like anything you've ever experienced. but it's undeniably all good ;)

Offline yicaoyimu

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2903 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 08:11:18 »
So how hard do you think the transition from ANSI layout to edox layout is?
about as hard as the transition from being brutally attacked by a gang of armed thugs to being sensually massaged by a group of the most stunningly gorgeous & attractive people you could ever dream of having intimate sensual times with. it's a little bit odd. not like anything you've ever experienced. but it's undeniably all good ;)

Sounds like it is really worth the time to switch to Ergodox. I must get one.
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Offline daerid

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2904 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 09:45:36 »
I'm sorry if this has been covered already in this thread, but I'm curious if the PCBs support mirroring without too much trouble. Meaning, putting the teensy, usb, and all that on the left side and the IOCP on the right.

RealForce 87UB55 | CODE Clears 104 | CODE Clears 87 | Infinity w/ Clears | Unicomp Ultra Classic
Previous boards: RealForce 45g 87UB | HHKB 2 PRO | Leopold FC660C | Filco MJ2 87 (Browns and Blacks) | CM QFR (Blues and Reds) | Filco MJ2  Linear-R | Poker (Reds, Browns, Blacks, Ergo Clears) | Dell AT101W | Matias TP3
Other: G403 | G Pro | Rival 700 | Castor | G502 | G602 | G600 | MX Master | Zowie EC1 CL  | Sensei | IE 3.0 | Kinzu 2 | Perf MX | Imperator | G500 | Apple Magic Mouse

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Offline MOZ

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2905 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 10:49:28 »
I'm sorry if this has been covered already in this thread, but I'm curious if the PCBs support mirroring without too much trouble. Meaning, putting the teensy, usb, and all that on the left side and the IOCP on the right.

You can, I think all you'll need to do is mount stuff in opposite side of PCB and setup a mirrored layout on the Massdrop site.

Offline eviltobz

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2906 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 10:52:51 »
things aren't meant to fit into the cases that massdrop supply very well if you do that though, so you might need to get customey - not sure if it needs some custom tweaking to the firmware too, to make it poll the switches correctly and whatnot. so it's doable, but not hassle-free.

Offline daerid

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2907 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 11:23:37 »
The acrylic plates are symmetrical though, so why couldn't you just invert the order of the plates and flip them over?

RealForce 87UB55 | CODE Clears 104 | CODE Clears 87 | Infinity w/ Clears | Unicomp Ultra Classic
Previous boards: RealForce 45g 87UB | HHKB 2 PRO | Leopold FC660C | Filco MJ2 87 (Browns and Blacks) | CM QFR (Blues and Reds) | Filco MJ2  Linear-R | Poker (Reds, Browns, Blacks, Ergo Clears) | Dell AT101W | Matias TP3
Other: G403 | G Pro | Rival 700 | Castor | G502 | G602 | G600 | MX Master | Zowie EC1 CL  | Sensei | IE 3.0 | Kinzu 2 | Perf MX | Imperator | G500 | Apple Magic Mouse

I write code for Stack Overflow.

Offline OldDataHands

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2908 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 11:28:43 »
the issue is electrical. if you mount the teensy
on the wrong side of the PCB, the power pin of teensy
is not connected to power trace of PCB. similar issues for
all pins of teensy and I/O expander...

Offline MOZ

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2909 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 11:32:22 »
the issue is electrical. if you mount the teensy
on the wrong side of the PCB, the power pin of teensy
is not connected to power trace of PCB. similar issues for
all pins of teensy and I/O expander...

Mount them on the correct side then, and just invert the order of the layers. This should work, yes, the Teensy would be on the bottom side and so will the connectors.

Offline bpiphany

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2910 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 12:42:44 »
You can actually mount the Teensy upside down, on the top side of the PCB. You only need to put the pins in from the other side. The expander should be possible to invert by bending all the legs over to the other side (I'm curious to see this one, no-one has done it yet to my knowledge). You may need to think the other components through another time as well. All two-lead components are of course simple to mirror, getting all connectors connecting the correct traces is more interesting... The acrylics can just be flipped and re-arranged.

Offline yicaoyimu

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2911 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 16:31:57 »
Ergodox experts, a noob question for you. I think the massdrop edox group buy does not provide stabillizers? Is edox pcb compatible with cherry stabilizers (pcb mounted)? Thanks!
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Offline Glod

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2912 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 18:09:05 »
the mass drop pcb does not support pcb stabilizers, a later revision that mechanicalkeyboards.com sells does support pcb stabilizers

however that doesn't really matter, the litster acrylic case massdrop sells only supports costar stabilizers and does not include them.
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Offline yicaoyimu

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2913 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 18:36:06 »
the mass drop pcb does not support pcb stabilizers, a later revision that mechanicalkeyboards.com sells does support pcb stabilizers

however that doesn't really matter, the litster acrylic case massdrop sells only supports costar stabilizers and does not include them.

That's too bad. Do you know how I can get an Ergodox that supports stabilizer then (other than making pcb and cases all by myself)?

EDIT:

Never mind. Costar stab is ok too.
« Last Edit: Tue, 10 September 2013, 19:44:11 by yicaoyimu »
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Offline ic07

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2914 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 23:01:11 »
Should probably note though that the stabilizer cutouts for one of the thumb keys (on each hand) didn't quite line up correctly.  There was talk of fixing it before the last run, but I haven't heard anything either way.

Though, there were a few people that made the improperly aligned cutouts work anyway.  And a lot of us (myself included) haven't found it necessary to use stabilizers at all :)
« Last Edit: Tue, 10 September 2013, 23:05:03 by ic07 »

Offline yicaoyimu

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2915 on: Wed, 11 September 2013, 00:18:24 »
Should probably note though that the stabilizer cutouts for one of the thumb keys (on each hand) didn't quite line up correctly.  There was talk of fixing it before the last run, but I haven't heard anything either way.

Though, there were a few people that made the improperly aligned cutouts work anyway.  And a lot of us (myself included) haven't found it necessary to use stabilizers at all :)

Thank you for your reply. Then I guess I should just get an Ergodox in whatever way I can get it and stop worrying about stabilizer stuff.
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Offline Findecanor

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2916 on: Wed, 11 September 2013, 07:19:46 »
however that doesn't really matter, the litster acrylic case massdrop sells only supports costar stabilizers and does not include them.
Massdrop's case supports stabilisers only on one of the two thumb keys per half-keyboard, because of a bug in Litsters design.
Because the plate is extra thick, each stabiliser must be modified and then force-fitted or glued in there.

As said before, you don't need stabilisers for the keys to function. You might like them, though.  The Kinesis does not have stabilisers on the large thumb keys either, and you never hear anyone complain about that.
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Offline MOZ

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2917 on: Wed, 11 September 2013, 08:46:10 »
IMHO, you don't need stabs on 2x keys, but I can understand if someone needs them.

Offline Thimplum

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2918 on: Wed, 11 September 2013, 09:39:35 »
Dox is online! He's like, never online...
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Offline rknize

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2919 on: Wed, 11 September 2013, 18:58:50 »
I was able to use the misaligned holes just fine.  You install the stabs backwards and then you have to twist the center bend in the wire slightly to clear the back of the switch.
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Offline Glod

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2920 on: Wed, 11 September 2013, 20:28:29 »
i don't use stabilizers :)
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Offline MOZ

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2921 on: Wed, 11 September 2013, 21:46:13 »
I'll be editing the PCB and the litster case to support all three types of stabs this weekend.

Offline sordna

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2922 on: Wed, 11 September 2013, 22:05:28 »
Updated my layout visual aid generator.  Now integrates better into the MassDrop firmware source download,
warns about configuration mismatches when PRESS action is different than RELEASE action for ktrans, kprrel, shprre.
here's the old post: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg1024010#msg1024010

Here is the new patch file: (Attachment Link)
unzip it into your MassDrop firmware source directory.
Then issue the command> patch --strip=3 -i edva.patch
again, this relies upon gcc and m4 being in the path.
then issue the command> make visaid
It'll compile the executable, run it, run m4, generate the visaid.svg file.
Then you can view/print/manipulate with Inkscape.

here's a picture of the layout visual aid which gets generated: (Attachment Link)


Wow, it worked!  Here the layout it generated from my sources:


« Last Edit: Wed, 11 September 2013, 22:08:30 by sordna »
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline MOZ

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2923 on: Thu, 12 September 2013, 01:16:58 »
And there you go the plate, so anyone wants, you can have these laser cut and install costar or cherry plate stabs. Still have to get the PCB done, that will take longer, as I am still playing around with KiCAD

EDIT: Removed currently, changes required.
« Last Edit: Thu, 12 September 2013, 03:00:52 by MOZ »

Offline Glod

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2924 on: Thu, 12 September 2013, 01:58:49 »
(Attachment Link)

And there you go the plate, so anyone wants, you can have these laser cut and install costar or cherry plate stabs. Still have to get the PCB done, that will take longer, as I am still playing around with KiCAD

but MOZ, the PCB mechanical keyboards sells has the design with the chery pcb stabs
GLOD
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Offline MOZ

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2925 on: Thu, 12 September 2013, 03:01:21 »
(Attachment Link)

And there you go the plate, so anyone wants, you can have these laser cut and install costar or cherry plate stabs. Still have to get the PCB done, that will take longer, as I am still playing around with KiCAD

but MOZ, the PCB mechanical keyboards sells has the design with the chery pcb stabs

Just saw the PCB designs from bpiphany again. It does have PCB stabs. Good thing, however I will have to edit the plate again, as the orientation for one of the stabs on each side is inverted.

Offline MOZ

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2926 on: Thu, 12 September 2013, 11:44:06 »
So, I made a couple of changes to the litster case:
- Now supports plate mounted cherry stabs besides costar and PCB mounted cherry stabs
- Made a universal design so you can swap between full size and classical design without having to change plate and desolder your switches. This will also support any already built classic size ErgoDox plate.

Current plates with new stab cutouts:
35176-0

New proposed layered design supporting universal design:
35174-1

Offline Glod

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2927 on: Thu, 12 September 2013, 13:33:40 »
i like the universal design :D, its the same dimensions as the litster case right? i still want some damn new tops/bottoms cut instead of these clear ones and scratched up aluminium ones. havent exactly asked around....
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Offline MOZ

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2928 on: Thu, 12 September 2013, 13:48:05 »
i like the universal design :D, its the same dimensions as the litster case right? i still want some damn new tops/bottoms cut instead of these clear ones and scratched up aluminium ones. havent exactly asked around....

Yes, the dimensions are exactly the same, the only difference is that there is one extra bolt, which is not present in the full hand case, and there plate layer is divided into two parts, a classic style plate and an "adapter".

Thus anyone with a classic design should be able to fit the plate on a full hand with the adapter and drilling that one hole in the remaining four layers.

I could hook you up with an new case if you want acrylic only, or any part of the case in fact, send me a PM and we can work something out.

Offline jalli

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2929 on: Sun, 15 September 2013, 21:42:06 »
Just a quick heads up that Patrick Gillespie has added the Ergodox keyboard layout to his excellent keyboard analyser,  for those of you creating a custom layout this allows you to fully optimize the layout and compare existing layouts such as Dvorak, Colemak, etc on your Ergodox!

http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer

Antonia

Offline sordna

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2930 on: Tue, 17 September 2013, 23:56:01 »
Just a quick heads up that Patrick Gillespie has added the Ergodox keyboard layout to his excellent keyboard analyser,  for those of you creating a custom layout this allows you to fully optimize the layout and compare existing layouts such as Dvorak, Colemak, etc on your Ergodox!

http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer

Cool! However it has things like ergodox workman and gelatin (??) but not ergodox dvorak ??? 
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Ian S

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2931 on: Wed, 18 September 2013, 04:47:46 »
Perhaps you can submit that one?

Can you point me to an explanation / instructions regarding the ErgoDox "with buzzer mod"? Thanks.  I'm about receive my two EgroDox PCBs from Massdrop.
« Last Edit: Wed, 18 September 2013, 04:51:10 by Ian S »
QPAD MK85 MX-red currently wearing beige vintage Cherry double shots.  Logitech K750.  Cherry G80 1000 with Blacks / Grey (circa 1990) that I've had since about 1994.

Sold: Realforce 88UB 45g; QPAD MK80 MX-Blue.

Offline jalli

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2932 on: Wed, 18 September 2013, 05:57:06 »
Layouts get submitted by enthusiasts like you and me so first person to submit a Dvorak layout for the Ergodox get's the honors.

I'm afraid Gelatin is my fault, I'm working on a Colemak design that works well with all the Latin diacritics and letters used by non-english languages since the current Dvorak/Colemak designs are horrible for non English languages (just try typing Altgr + t + u  on a regular basis)  :eek:



Just a quick heads up that Patrick Gillespie has added the Ergodox keyboard layout to his excellent keyboard analyser,  for those of you creating a custom layout this allows you to fully optimize the layout and compare existing layouts such as Dvorak, Colemak, etc on your Ergodox!

http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer

Cool! However it has things like ergodox workman and gelatin (??) but not ergodox dvorak ???
Antonia

Offline sordna

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2933 on: Wed, 18 September 2013, 12:55:37 »
Can you point me to an explanation / instructions regarding the ErgoDox "with buzzer mod"? Thanks.  I'm about receive my two EgroDox PCBs from Massdrop.

Initial mod:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg840977#msg840977

Code that includes buzzer mod AND lights up the teensy built-in LED to put it to use as a layer indicator:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg844285#msg844285

MP3 sound sample (from other thread) showcasing how the buzzer makes the keyboard "clicky"
http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=42231.0;attach=20386


Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline spm

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2934 on: Sat, 21 September 2013, 09:39:23 »
I'm having problem with one of my ergodox now. I have two from Massdrop group buy. One with MX blue which is working fine and one with MX Clear. On the MX Clear version I have 3 keys which are doing weird things. If I press these keys (if I do it slowly it do this issue in 50% cases) it is registered by computer twice or even more time (on key switches when writing I got 3 letters instead of one...) And sometimes this key is not registered (missing char). All of these problematic keys are on the right side with teensy.

Any idea what can be wrong? Have I only bad luck with 3 broken mx switches or can be something wrong in my keyboard?

Offline MOZ

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2935 on: Sat, 21 September 2013, 09:56:59 »
Switch is most likely screwed.

Offline Ian S

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2936 on: Sat, 21 September 2013, 14:31:17 »
Can you point me to an explanation / instructions regarding the ErgoDox "with buzzer mod"? Thanks.  I'm about receive my two EgroDox PCBs from Massdrop.
Initial mod:.....
Thanks, I'll look at that more closely when I understand what it means :)  Which may be after the boards and parts get here.

Which prompts another question.

Can I buy the expander chip from anyone on here, group buy, spares, etc?  Otherwise it has to be an order to Mouser most likely and that won't be for some time until I build up more than 50 order value.

I should have the Teensy on the way.  I can get, or have got 1N4148's and resistors.

Also some info on where to get sensibly priced solder paste for surface mount diodes would be good as I looked in the UK catalogues and it was up to 8 times the price of a reel of solder!

I have some early 1990s cherry black PCB mount switches that I plan to unsolder from the G80 and use but I'll want some cherry red style springs.  Would anyone reading this be able to point me to some please?  Or some more progressive springs that start light like the reds but become heavier once past the actuating point, so the bottoming is more buffered.

Thanks.

« Last Edit: Sun, 22 September 2013, 04:20:27 by Ian S »
QPAD MK85 MX-red currently wearing beige vintage Cherry double shots.  Logitech K750.  Cherry G80 1000 with Blacks / Grey (circa 1990) that I've had since about 1994.

Sold: Realforce 88UB 45g; QPAD MK80 MX-Blue.

Offline sordna

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2937 on: Sun, 22 September 2013, 01:15:54 »
Haven't tried progressive springs, but I think they would feel very mushy. To dampen bottoming out, what works really well and is much easier to install is 40A durometer o-rings such as these:
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/cherry-mx-rubber-switch-dampeners.html
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Ian S

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2938 on: Sun, 22 September 2013, 04:29:02 »
Thanks, I got a sample of a few of all three a year ago and played with them in various combinations and multiples.  Use them on the 'gaming' arrow keys to shorten the throw and soften the bottom, and recently space bar and backspace and enter keys to soften the bottom and cut the noise.

I think progressive would be better.  With the Cherry Blacks, I typed for years at work with no bottoming ever.  So I think the bottom 2mm at 'Black' spring rating and the top 2mm at 'Red' rating might do the job.

That would mean a soft (perhaps that what you mean by mushy?) end of stroke with no sudden jolt to the fingers or accompanying impact noise.

There would be more top end stop noise though I expect as there would be greater spring return force from however much of that bottom firmer spring rate I pressed into.
QPAD MK85 MX-red currently wearing beige vintage Cherry double shots.  Logitech K750.  Cherry G80 1000 with Blacks / Grey (circa 1990) that I've had since about 1994.

Sold: Realforce 88UB 45g; QPAD MK80 MX-Blue.

Offline Larken

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2939 on: Sun, 22 September 2013, 05:47:48 »
Thanks, I got a sample of a few of all three a year ago and played with them in various combinations and multiples.  Use them on the 'gaming' arrow keys to shorten the throw and soften the bottom, and recently space bar and backspace and enter keys to soften the bottom and cut the noise.

I think progressive would be better.  With the Cherry Blacks, I typed for years at work with no bottoming ever.  So I think the bottom 2mm at 'Black' spring rating and the top 2mm at 'Red' rating might do the job.

That would mean a soft (perhaps that what you mean by mushy?) end of stroke with no sudden jolt to the fingers or accompanying impact noise.

There would be more top end stop noise though I expect as there would be greater spring return force from however much of that bottom firmer spring rate I pressed into.

sounds like you want clear springs. actuation is rated at 65cN at actuation and near 100cN at bottom out; these are heavier than blacks at the bottom.

you should be able to get some easily in the classifieds. I imagine there's more than a few people with these put to a side after an ergoclear mod. Otherwise, you might have to try and source for a pretty rare variation of 67g korean springs.
| Ergodox #1 | Ergodox #2 |


Filco Majestouch Brown | Ducky 1087 Brown | Cherry G80-3494 Reds | Unicomp Ultra Classics | Cherry G80-8113 Clears |

Offline Ian S

  • Posts: 79
  • Location: London, UK
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2940 on: Sun, 22 September 2013, 06:35:08 »
Thanks, :) but...
• I want the light actuation of the reds.  Isn't that about 30g to start with, 40g actuation, 55g or so at the bottom?  Forget just now.  Been maybe a year since I last was into this.
• I don't light the initial weight of the blacks.
• And I don't like the way the caps wobble of the firm springs.  And I don't like the louder upper clack.
• So, Perhaps I'm looking for 30g to start, 40g actuation, 100g or so at the bottom?

Maybe that would be like a 'red' spring with a fatter softer O ring, 10 or 20 Durometer? 2mm diameter?  Though I think the spring might be more linear in it's compression than an O ring which might be initially nothing then suddenly too much.

Not sure just now how many grams 65cN represents.  Newtons = Mass x acceleration ( kg x (m/s) ).  But for these springs the actuation is a static compression force rather than an acceleration?
« Last Edit: Sun, 22 September 2013, 06:40:30 by Ian S »
QPAD MK85 MX-red currently wearing beige vintage Cherry double shots.  Logitech K750.  Cherry G80 1000 with Blacks / Grey (circa 1990) that I've had since about 1994.

Sold: Realforce 88UB 45g; QPAD MK80 MX-Blue.

Offline Larken

  • Posts: 623
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2941 on: Sun, 22 September 2013, 07:50:33 »
the springs that you are looking for doesn't exist, not specifically at the weight/force you're looking at. clears are as close as you're going to get, as it's probably the only spring that's designed for a drastic increase in force after actuation.

look at rknize's thread as a guide, and it explains the clear springs's force/rate pretty well. red springs are not going to have that cushioning effect you're looking at.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46449.0
| Ergodox #1 | Ergodox #2 |


Filco Majestouch Brown | Ducky 1087 Brown | Cherry G80-3494 Reds | Unicomp Ultra Classics | Cherry G80-8113 Clears |

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2892
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2942 on: Sun, 22 September 2013, 21:38:34 »

I think progressive would be better.  With the Cherry Blacks, I typed for years at work with no bottoming ever.  So I think the bottom 2mm at 'Black' spring rating and the top 2mm at 'Red' rating might do the job.

That would mean a soft (perhaps that what you mean by mushy?) end of stroke with no sudden jolt to the fingers or accompanying impact noise.

There would be more top end stop noise though I expect as there would be greater spring return force from however much of that bottom firmer spring rate I pressed into.

The cherry MY switches are very progressive, and sound like most you describe, however many people also describe them as horrible feeling. Here's a review of them at the bottom of this page:
http://www.overclock.net/t/920053/my-opinions-on-cherry-switches
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline SubGothius

  • Posts: 83
  • Location: Tucson, AZ USA
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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2943 on: Mon, 23 September 2013, 17:27:21 »
The cherry MY switches are very progressive, and sound like most you describe, however many people also describe them as horrible feeling.

They also require bottoming-out to activate, which is what it sounds like he's trying to avoid. This is why they feel so horrible; their resistance increases sharply just as you're nearing their activation point. That progressive resistance curve, which would be a boon to resist bottoming-out an MX switch that activates near the top of its stroke, works against you when the activation point is at the very bottom of the stroke.

Cherry MY switches use sandwiched contact membranes similar to rubber domes, just with a more robust keying mechanism to press the membrane contacts together; the MY appears designed for cheap durability, not utter cheapness like rubber domes nor ergonomic and high-quality durability like MXs. Springs from MY switches are a PITA to extract and will not interchange with MX switch springs.

I have a similar interest in retrofitting my MX clears with a lighter activation force while retaining most of the high resistance past the activation point to avoid bottoming out, so I'll check out that rknize thread linked avove...
« Last Edit: Mon, 23 September 2013, 22:30:09 by SubGothius »
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut

Offline Ian S

  • Posts: 79
  • Location: London, UK
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2944 on: Mon, 23 September 2013, 18:21:42 »
Thanks all for the help, info suggestions, link to that excellent work, and yes I'm trying to avoid bottoming out but have a light actuation force.

I wonder about cutting of a few coils off the clear springs.  Then it's still the same 13grams spring rate, but would have a reduced force starting point, more like the Originative 45 but with a steeper increase in force, an actuation of 40g like the reds, and an end of about 75g.

Don't know why no-one seems to have had such a spring made.

This is probably the wrong thread now for this somewhat 'off topic' detail tangent, should be on that springs thread I guess.
« Last Edit: Mon, 23 September 2013, 18:25:28 by Ian S »
QPAD MK85 MX-red currently wearing beige vintage Cherry double shots.  Logitech K750.  Cherry G80 1000 with Blacks / Grey (circa 1990) that I've had since about 1994.

Sold: Realforce 88UB 45g; QPAD MK80 MX-Blue.

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2892
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2945 on: Mon, 23 September 2013, 22:23:03 »
And they also require bottoming-out to activate, which is what it sounds like he's trying to avoid.

No they don't. I have an MY keyboard and the keys seem to actuate lower than an MX keyboard, but you really don't have to bottom out the keys. It's much better than rubber domes in that respect, but not nearly as good an MX of course.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Ian S

  • Posts: 79
  • Location: London, UK
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2946 on: Tue, 24 September 2013, 06:12:04 »
This first hand info regarding these switches should pasted into in some switch Wiki somewhere?
QPAD MK85 MX-red currently wearing beige vintage Cherry double shots.  Logitech K750.  Cherry G80 1000 with Blacks / Grey (circa 1990) that I've had since about 1994.

Sold: Realforce 88UB 45g; QPAD MK80 MX-Blue.

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2892
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2947 on: Tue, 24 September 2013, 08:05:45 »
Possibly. You can google the site for info about them from other posts, here's a rather favorable review and info:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=8576.msg152897#msg152897
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Pacifist

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2948 on: Tue, 24 September 2013, 22:50:15 »
Anyone know when these will be avalible again?

Offline Findecanor

  • Posts: 4087
  • Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2949 on: Wed, 25 September 2013, 09:21:20 »
Anyone know when these will be avalible again?
The latest Massdrop run is closed already?
I have seen a few ready-made Massdrop-ErgoDox keyboards for sale now and then.

Technically, the plans are free and parts are available from other sources. You can get the PCB at MechanicalKeyboards.com.
There is a parts list on ErgoDox.org with links to where to buy components in the US.
There are projects on this forum for other types of cases.
The PCB supports PCB-mounted switches so you won't need any plate.
Keycaps are a bit harder to source. Unfortunately, the board does not support anything but 1.5u modifiers in the outermost columns.
« Last Edit: Wed, 25 September 2013, 17:32:21 by Findecanor »
Daily driver: Phantom (Lubed Cherry MX Clear, Lasered Cherry PBT keycaps with Row A. Plastic "Frankencase". Custom firmware, Swedish layout)
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