Needing Advice on Mechanical/Topre Switched Keyboards

[Gegs]

Hey everyone,

the past few days I have been doing some pretty thorough research on all things keyboards and have learnt an enormous amount from these forums (hence my registering!). My curiosity was sparked by experiencing the MX Cherry blue first hand (Razor BlackWidow keyboard) on a friends computer. I won't go into needless detail however I was left wanting more out of a keyboard when I returned home to my battered rubber dome keyboard with its dying flickering lights and sad worn appearance.

I don't care for shiny keyboards, backlit keys, additional macro buttons or any other 'luxury' features as I rarely use/notice any of it as I never look at the keyboard. I'm not one to make much use of the number pad as I have a spare one and I don't have too many complaints about the number row. Personally I dislike Razor products as I find them poorly made, gimmicky, easy to break and hard to maintain (depending on their shinyness!). I don't think I'd prefer a cherry blue keyboard as I frequently talk on the microphone and to those around me and I could imagine the clicking novelty would wear off in time. It is probably worth mentioning I am a student who is definitely pursuing an IT career and I am often programming and my main hobby is to play pc games, needless to say I spent too much time in front of pc's. I noticed cherry blacks are a popular switch of choice for gaming however not for typing which raises the question, is it worth me getting a keyboard for gaming and another keyboard for all things else? From reading, I have gathered that many enjoy the cherry browns as they do not give the audible 'click' sound yet they retain the tactile touch when the key actuates which I very much enjoyed. The cherry brown switch sounds like a fantastic switch to solve some of the concerns around my purchase as I would likely use it as a multi-purpose keyboard rather than having 2 keyboards for different uses.

Then I read about topre switches... I gotta say, looking at the happy hacking keyboard Professional 2 and the Realforce tenkeyless made me feel 1 step closer to finding what I was after yet 10 steps backwards in confusion on what I should buy. It's easy to understand how one collects a number of keyboards! These keyboards appear to be exactly what I wanted (minus the price-tag lol). From what I've read however, topre switched keyboards appear to be exceptional both in terms of usability and quality. I looked at some peoples personal opinions of the realforce and hhkb2 pro to try and identify which of the two they enjoyed more based of the few who had experienced both and written about it. From memory, the only complaints about the hhkb2 pro were that its build quality was slightly poorer in comparison to the realforce and that the realforce had sharp edges that can become uncomfortable to type on.

This initial post has probably dragged on long enough as I simply don't know what to do and would love some advice from those experienced with a wide range of different switches and keyboards! Should I look at investing in a single keyboard? If so, what one? Should I get a keyboard for gaming that uses cherry blacks and another for all other purposes? Again, what ones? Can't wait to hear your thoughts/opinions!

[reaper]

Welcome to Geekhack!  I'd say get multiple keyboards and use each one for different purpose.  That's the joy of owning/using multiple keyboards.  Don't get just one and call it quit although if you can do that then be my guest. =P  I find that once you've tried one type of switch then you're gonna want to try another and another...   hence the drain everyone's wallets here. lol

A good, safe first keyboard, if you ask me, would be a Filco browns (either full-size or tenkeyless, depending on your needs and wants).  If you don't mind buying used ones then head over to the Classifieds section and browse around...   and hold on tight to your wallet.  You've been warned! O.o

[Gegs]

Hey Reaper, I didn't even know about the classifieds section, thanks for pointing it out. Have you happened to have tried a Leopold FC200R brown or know much about them? I live in Australia and they are a little more accessible than the Filco keyboards.

[himynameisbunny]

Welcome to Geekhack!

In all honesty you need to find what's best for you - which is why people have so many keyboards...

I started in exactly the same position. Maybe my experience might help your decision. In order of ownership:

• BlackWidow Ultimate. Felt so good that I needed one for work.
• Model M - was lent it by a friend. Used it at work but pissed boss off.
• Noppoo Choc Mini w/ Browns. Didn't suit needs (no numpad or detachable cable) but Browns felt nice
• Poker & Goldtouch numpad w/ Browns. Tactile bump less obvious (I feel because of PCB mount)
• Modded to Ergo Clears. Sluggish on return but travel down awesome.
• Poker w/ Reds. So close to perfect once the 40A o-rings were installed...smooth, but soft landing. Near silent.
• HHKB Pro 2 in the classifieds. Tactile bump "snappy", soft landing, but louder than what I'd expect.

And in order of preference:

• Topre (shares more feel with BS than MX)
• Cherry Red
• Buckling Spring (Model M)
• Ergo Clears
• Blues
• Browns

Honestly? I'd say move your way up that list from the bottom up. Because if you don't you'll never know what the others fell like and it will eat you alive! Remember they will hold their resale value pretty well if taken care of :)

But if you really just wanted to make the one purchase? I'd say either Reds or Topre.

EDIT - Just saw that you're in Australia. Where abouts?

[Gegs]

Sydney NSW. I didn't think about the consequences of purchasing a single expensive keyboard such as a topre. Oh god, maybe I shouldn't have researched and sparked my curiosity.

[cactux]

^ shipping from usa is  around 55 usd

[himynameisbunny]

Provided you're not too far away (I work in Sutherland) you're more than welcome to try out the keyboards I still have - which is the two Pokers, the HHKB and the Blackwidow - if that makes your decision easier.

As for the Leopold - I've tried ones with Blues and they're nice, save for being slightly ringy if the board is placed on a metal surface (lol) and stabilized keys feeling mushy.

[reaper]

Hey Reaper, I didn't even know about the classifieds section, thanks for pointing it out. Have you happened to have tried a Leopold FC200R brown or know much about them? I live in Australia and they are a little more accessible than the Filco keyboards.

You're welcome and yup, I got it when it was first launched here in U.S.  Nice, inexpesive board with quality on par with Filco (except for that darn spacebar lol).  Anyway, there are a few members here from Australia.  They could probably make better recommendation than I can on where to buy mechanical keyboards at decent price.  Good luck. =)

[Gegs]

^ shipping from usa is  around 55 usd

Yeah, pretty painful ><. There is a website here in Aus that sells a few popular keyboards people recommend herehttp://pccasegear.com

[himynameisbunny]

They could probably make better recommendation than I can on where to buy mechanical keyboards at decent price.

If PC Home still have that shipping special on, that would be a good choice for most.

Otherwise I'd go PC Case Gear or mechkeyboards.com.au - I highly recommend both.

[Gegs]

^ shipping from usa is  around 55 usd

Yeah, shipping has always sucked for us Aussies. Luckily there are a couple of websites that do sell in Australia for reasonable prices.

[cactux]

^ but you wont find hhkb nor some of  the latest realforce :-(

[Gegs]

Provided you're not too far away (I work in Sutherland) you're more than welcome to try out the keyboards I still have - which is the two Pokers, the HHKB and the Blackwidow - if that makes your decision easier.

As for the Leopold - I've tried ones with Blues and they're nice, save for being slightly ringy if the board is placed on a metal surface (lol) and stabilized keys feeling mushy.

Oh wow thanks for the offer. I'll see how things turn out as I'm currently in melb for this holiday season and I'm not sure how long I'll hold before buying something.

If PC Home still have that shipping special on, that would be a good choice for most.

Otherwise I'd go PC Case Gear or mechkeyboards.com.au - I highly recommend both.

I found PC Case Gear but haven't heard of the others, thanks for the heads up!

[pitashen]

get a cherry mx board would be a good start. I usually recommend to those noobs with nil experiences in any cherry switches to go for brown. They are one of the safest choice for both typing and gaming(anything could be good for gaming...TBH). Since you already tried blue and liked it and noise isn't much of a concern, then it would be a fun switch type to own.

If money isn't much of your concern.. then Topre away~

[cactux]

^ If you want filcos you can get them in http://www.auspcmarket.com.au

[Gegs]

^ If you want filcos you can get them in http://www.auspcmarket.com.au

nice, pc case gear didn't have those. cheers.

[Gegs]

get a cherry mx board would be a good start. I usually recommend to those noobs with nil experiences in any cherry switches to go for brown. They are one of the safest choice for both typing and gaming(anything could be good for gaming...TBH). Since you already tried blue and liked it and noise isn't much of a concern, then it would be a fun switch type to own.

If money isn't much of your concern.. then Topre away~

At the moment I am leaning toward getting a brown board

[himynameisbunny]

At the moment I am leaning toward getting a brown board

Your best bet would be the Leopold FC500R from PCCG then - they're out of the FC200R

Protip: buy it while you're in Melbourne - shipping will be cheaper because that's where PCCG is!

[cactux]

At the moment I am leaning toward getting a brown board

^ browns are the safest option

[Greenbean]

I'm going to be purchasing my first mech keyboard in the near future.

But I said screw it, I'm going to risk it for the MX Blues.

I discovered that I prefer tactile keyboards over linear. My best advice is go to your nearest electronics store and try to find samples.

[Gegs]

I'm going to be purchasing my first mech keyboard in the near future.

But I said screw it, I'm going to risk it for the MX Blues.

I discovered that I prefer tactile keyboards over linear. My best advice is go to your nearest electronics store and try to find samples.

I think it'd be strange to have no tactile feedback with general typing. However, for games I can't see it meaning a great deal as it'd be pretty likely I would have the keys pressed bottomed out most of the time.

[Gegs]

What keyboard are the most popular cherry brown keyboards? I can justify spending more within reason if the feel and build quality earns it.

edit: Reaper mentioned the Filco brown keyboard which I have heard a bit about, how would that compare to say the FC2000R? Also how is the resale value of these keyboards?

[himynameisbunny]

I think it'd be strange to have no tactile feedback with general typing.

You'd be surprised how good reds feel like to type on. Even ripster himself noted that reds are his second favorite switch behind the blues despite the lack of tactility. Cant explain that one scientifically!

What keyboard are the most popular cherry brown keyboards?
edit: Reaper mentioned the Filco brown keyboard which I have heard a bit about, how would that compare to say the FC2000R? Also how is the resale value of these keyboards?

There's really only two on the Aussie market - Leopold or Filco. Either take your choice or import it! Lol.

Most posts I've seen from people who own both is that the Filco doesn't warrant the price difference. Besides, the new Leopolds are coming with top-notch quality keycaps which sweeten the deal further - but you'll have to wait for them!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

[flaming_june]

Get yourself a single, uniform weigthed topre keyboard.

- if you fps game and/or use the keyboard with mobile computing, get a hhkb
- if you rts game and/or use solely at home/work, get a realforce 45/55g 75% (86/87/88U) keyboard

Don't even consider anything else.  There's no point wasting your brain.  There's also no reason to spend money on more than one board (even though I have four atm and have bought/sold even more).

[Gegs]

You'd be surprised how good reds feel like to type on. Even ripster himself noted that reds are his second favorite switch behind the blues despite the lack of tactility. Cant explain that one scientifically!

I've seen a lot of his posts around. He seems a pretty knowledgeable guy, what is his favourite just out of interest? Also, what's yours?

There's really only two on the Aussie market - Leopold or Filco. Either take your choice or import it! Lol.

Most posts I've seen from people who own both is that the Filco doesn't warrant the price difference. Besides, the new Leopolds are coming with top-notch quality keycaps which sweeten the deal further - but you'll have to wait for them!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

Oh I wouldn't have had a clue about that. Perhaps I'll wait or get something else in the mean-time considering it looks as though I'll be investing in 2 keyboards, ha! Cheers for the heads up.

[suprsmo]

Just grab a filco 87 key with browns from auspc. They have grr delivery too. I have one with blues and ninja caps. Superb board. The later leos have excellent quality. My first board, Leo w browns suffer the crud space and mushy modifiers. I'd even go for the yellow or camo version. Am srsly thinking about getting one..

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

[Gegs]

Get yourself a single, uniform weigthed topre keyboard.

- if you fps game and/or use the keyboard with mobile computing, get a hhkb
- if you rts game and/or use solely at home/work, get a realforce 45/55g 75% (86/87/88U) keyboard

Don't even consider anything else.  There's no point wasting your brain.  There's also no reason to spend money on more than one board (even though I have four atm and have bought/sold even more).

May I ask what the difference is between the HHKB and the Realforce? Also how does the realforce with variable weighting compare to having uniform weights?

[Gegs]

Just grab a filco 87 key with browns from auspc. They have grr delivery too. I have one with blues and ninja caps. Superb board. The later leos have excellent quality. My first board, Leo w browns suffer the crud space and mushy modifiers. I'd even go for the yellow or camo version. Am srsly thinking about getting one..

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

sounds like you just talked yourself into it! Reaper also mentioned the leo's having a lacklustre space bar, what's wrong with it? I get the impression that Filco boards are considered better quality while it may not be by a large margin and would likely have higher resale value.

[Mazora]

OP: Welcome to geekhack

At first you'll want to read and talk about it alot, but then you'll see that buying and trying keyboards (new or in the classified) is the only way to really find the right keyboard(s) for you !  Don't think too much let your instinct guide you ^^

[flaming_june]

May I ask what the difference is between the HHKB and the Realforce? Also how does the realforce with variable weighting compare to having uniform weights?

HHKB doesn't have dedicated Function 1-12 keys, arrow keys.  The Ctrl key is also more ergo placed for fps games.  It's a light and compact keyboard that you can use at home as well as on the road.  Realforce is more traditional.  Just check the elitekeyboards website for pictures.

If you want to game variable isn't the way to go.  And since you said you do, you should go 45g instead.  Also one main thing for many people is consistency in the feeling of key strokes.  Variable doesn't offer you that.

[Orgasma]

Where would i go exactly to get my heads on a Filco keyboard in the Usa?

[reaper]

Amazon.com?

[Reptile]

Get the tester to Australia!

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23914-Cherry-Switch-Tester-Holiday-Tour-2011!

[Gegs]

HHKB doesn't have dedicated Function 1-12 keys, arrow keys.  The Ctrl key is also more ergo placed for fps games.  It's a light and compact keyboard that you can use at home as well as on the road.  Realforce is more traditional.  Just check the elitekeyboards website for pictures.

If you want to game variable isn't the way to go.  And since you said you do, you should go 45g instead.  Also one main thing for many people is consistency in the feeling of key strokes.  Variable doesn't offer you that.

are there any major/subtle differences in the feel of the keys when pressed or are they very much the same (taking into consideration the differences already listed).

I do love the layout and appearance of the HHKB and I don't play a great deal of RTS

[flaming_june]

You need to be more clear.  I don't know which keyboards you're asking about.

[Gegs]

I was referring to the HHKB2 Pro and the Realforce tenkeyless

[himynameisbunny]

are there any major/subtle differences in the feel of the keys when pressed or are they very much the same (taking into consideration the differences already listed).

Pinky keys are 35g, ring finger 40g, index finger 45g. Its designed so all the keys feel the same taking into account how strong each finger is :-)

I've seen a lot of his posts around. He seems a pretty knowledgeable guy, what is his favourite just out of interest? Also, what's yours?

See my first post in this thread for mine - I cant really search at the moment (on phone in cab) but I believe his favorite is blues followed by reds. As he said though...

Ripster is THE BEST!

But since he doesn't follow the main forum much ask him questions in his subforum.

The trolls are less hesitant to wander into his subforum, hence his hesitance to lurk the main forum.

May I ask what the difference is between the HHKB and the Realforce? Also how does the realforce with variable weighting compare to having uniform weights?

From my experience with my DIY cherry variable board you don't notice anything out of the ordinary - which is kind of the point! Not sure about the Topre boards though.

HHKB is a space saver board and the Realforce boards are a regular layout.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

[nhwhaup]

I totally prefer a light touch.  I absolutely love the reds and also the RealForce Silent with the variable keys.  The Filco with reds is just the lightest touch around and I can only describe it as being able to type so lightly that it feels like your fingers are floating over the keys.  On the other hand, the RealForce silent feels like when you watch someone put their fingers to a piano keyboard.  The keystrokes are like butter.

I have tried a ton of keyboards and am quite satisfied with the Filco with reds and the silent Realforce.  The only other keyboard that might entice me would be a white/beige HHKB Pro Silent version with arrow keys.  I like the small form of the HHKB but it bugs the heck out of me not to have arrow keys.  I know they have this offering in Japan but I haven't seen it in the US and then the price I'm sure would be outrageous.

[himynameisbunny]

I can only describe it as being able to type so lightly that it feels like your fingers are floating over the keys.

My thoughts exactly.

[Gegs]

Are the reds 'too' light? As a beginner they sound as though they could be easy to make errors on.

[jpm804]

Are the reds 'too' light? As a beginner they sound as though they could be easy to make errors on.

Not at all and I am not the ligthest typer at all.. I find the variable topre, I am more prone to possible miss types.

[Gegs]

Not at all and I am not the ligthest typer at all.. I find the variable topre, I am more prone to possible miss types.

Is there any reason to why you find the topre more prone to errors?

[jpm804]

Is there any reason to why you find the topre more prone to errors?

for me at least the light 30g pinkies on my old 86UB caused me to aaaaaaaaaaa sometimes in the begining when I was getting use to it.

[Gegs]

for me at least the light 30g pinkies on my old 86UB caused me to aaaaaaaaaaa sometimes in the begining when I was getting use to it.

I notice you have HHKB in your signature. Aren't the keys on that topre and uniform weight? Do you have the same problem on that?

[nhwhaup]

I do like a light touch but I find the reds very easy to type on and probably make the least amount of mistakes with this keyboard.  I went from the regular rubber dome and laptop keyboard to first, browns and totally didn't like them.  I do not need the tactile feedback at all.  I really don't like the tactile feedback albeit light.  So the reds made sense for me. And strangely enough the reds are just as fun to type light as a feather and to also type furiously and bottom out.  They even sound nice when they bottom out.  

My ultimate favorite is the Silent Realforce.  However, if I'm away from that board for a couple of days it does take a bit to get back into not making mistakes with it and for me it is hard not to bottom out with the topres.  I have the variable keys and prefer them.  Bottoming out on the Silent Realforce is rather quiet as well.  

It's so funny the preferences of folks on this forum.  I guess if we weren't all so different in our likes, there would only be one or two keyboard available.  I started with the browns as my first choice and knew right away that I didn't like the feel or the sound of them.  I also knew that the blues would never work for me and I was heading down the road of a linear type switch with a light touch.  Silent topres and reds for me all the way.

[002]

I notice you have HHKB in your signature. Aren't the keys on that topre and uniform weight? Do you have the same problem on that?

The keys on the HHKB are 45g uniform.
jpm804 is saying that he initially had problems on the Topre REALFORCE 86U keyboard which employs variable weighting on the left and right extremities of the board to cater for your weak little pinky fingers
I had the problem initially but it doesn't take long to get used to it.

It's important to note the HHKB isn't actually a Topre product, it belongs to Fujitsu IIRC - they just use Topre switches.
Topre's line is 'REALFORCE'.

[Gegs]

The keys on the HHKB are 45g uniform.
jpm804 is saying that he initially had problems on the Topre REALFORCE 86U keyboard which employs variable weighting on the left and right extremities of the board to cater for your weak little pinky fingers
I had the problem initially but it doesn't take long to get used to it.

It's important to note the HHKB isn't actually a Topre product, it belongs to Fujitsu IIRC - they just use Topre switches.
Topre's line is 'REALFORCE'.

Oh, my mistake. That makes a lot of sense now. How would you rate the variable weighting over uniform?

I think the HHKB2 Pro has taken my fancy. I find the price and others opinions of other keyboards the only thing deterring factor. If the reasons against are strong enough then I'm easily persuaded as I don't want to end up being dissatisfied and wasting money.

[nar]

When programming, I have to say that the variable weighting on the right edge of the board is amazing, No more tired fingers from pressing {}; more often than any other key on the keyboard.

P.S. As I always say, if you find Topres to be too expensive, try buying them used. I got my two topre boards for less than $300 total.

[Gegs]

mmm, I might just do that. Cheers for the help!

[002]

I use a uniform 55g weighted REALFORCE at work (Topre *do* make uniform variants in addition to their variables) and a variable weighted board at home. I have no problem switching between the two boards and I appreciate them equally.

The REALFORCE models that are sold on PC Case Gear are variable weighted, and they are the desirable 87 and 104 models.
They are also $76 cheaper than Elitekeyboard's normal price; but I don't think you get the keypuller and lavender WADS.