Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)

[hazeluff]

Hmm.. I'm kinda tempted to craft this madness (cobbled together in a spreadsheet in a few minutes):

(Attachment Link) 39405[/ATTACH]

Ahhhh. Left handed numpad. Do not want. (left hander here, but use right hand for numpads).

[TheProfosist]

my left hand is not that capable sadly.

[The_Ed]

Yes, an optional knob you can buy that solders to any 2 switch squares. It would have a mini 2x PCB on the bottom that had pins in the same place as mx switches. You just pop it in the board and solder it like any regular mx switch.

[Parak]

Considering how infrequently I personally use a numpad, I'd rather have a shorter reach of a TKL to the mouse. I still need a numpad however for a few things, so that's why I put it on the left. I also consider full remapping, layers, and macros to be a functional requirement, so the left hand keypad would most of the time serve as a hotkey macro area for games and the like.

[TheProfosist]

Considering how infrequently I personally use a numpad, I'd rather have a shorter reach of a TKL to the mouse. I still need a numpad however for a few things, so that's why I put it on the left. I also consider full remapping, layers, and macros to be a functional requirement, so the left hand keypad would most of the time serve as a hotkey macro area for games and the like.

I think it might be interesting to have that functionality on the right and left at the same time

[Parak]

I think it might be interesting to have that functionality on the right and left at the same time

Right, with full programmability there's no reason why the two could not be interchanged, with the exception of the 1.5 keys. One possibility is to make both sides a 3x6 or 4x6 block of 1x1 keys, and then go to town, though for heavy numpad users having 1.5 keys would be more convenient.

[The_Ed]

tyrannosaurus rex arms? My arms sit comfortably on the armrests of my chair. My left hand is directly on the wads, while my right is directly on my mouse. If I had a tenkeyless there would be a tenkeyless sized gap between my mousepad and keyboard. How in any way is there any less reaching on a tenkeyless?

[Parak]

tyrannosaurus rex arms? My arms sit comfortably on the armrests of my chair. My left hand is directly on the wads, while my right is directly on my mouse. If I had a tenkeyless there would be a tenkeyless sized gap between my mousepad and keyboard. How in any way is there any less reaching on a tenkeyless?

Shrug? It's more convenient for me. YMMV obviously as with any other thing one may prefer about their user interface devices. On that note, I'm sure everyone wants a particular feature or particular design, but let's try to keep in mind that we're talking about projects that require significant time and money for typically negative or no financial gain in return. The projects will therefore first and foremost serve their own creator's wants/needs, especially since it's impossible to please everyone. In short, let's try to keep feedback and suggestions constructive for those that will hopefully make this one a reality.

[digitalleftovers]

Don't have to, just need to find what kind of knob it is and how it interfaces with circuitry.

http://hackedgadgets.com/2010/02/01/rotary-encoder-and-shift-registers-explained/:

It spits out grey code for the "position" it is in.

So you'd have to make something in the controller that keeps track of the position and when it changes Inc/Dec the volume. It is possible. You just need to mount it nicely.

That video also nicely addresses most pin count limitations issues, with the use of shift register.  Could be quite handy for doing practically anything with the LEDs

[The_Ed]

Wow... 3 times the posts have gone missing now... I have the diagram drawn hazeluff. I will post it when I have time to scan it. Though this post may go missing too, so It'll be a surprise.

Oh look... pictures work again! So I can finally post the picture of the rotary encoder I bought 4 of, that was referenced in a lost post!

[hazeluff]

Damn the rollback went pretty far last night...(also we were hacked =='')

I'll just repost the circuit I had drawn up. And just resummarize:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39424[/ATTACH]

So the Mechanical Rotary Encoder acts as a mechanical switch.
We use the resistor to make sure that the encoder does not short the voltage at the column pin to ground.
Everything is good. Concept shows that having a knob for volume is possible.

[The_Ed]

Here's mine:



Ghosting can happen without those 2 extra diodes. It looks like your diagram is connecting to only one switch trace, and not connected to the circuit at all. And I have no idea why you are putting a resistor in there. The rotary encoders are 2-bit not 1-bit. They need 2 switches for those 2 bits.

Finally broke a hundred posts! Though if that hacker wasn't around i'd have broken it last week.

[hazeluff]

Here's mine:



Ghosting can happen without those 2 extra diodes. It looks like your diagram is connecting to only one switch trace, and not connected to the circuit at all. And I have no idea why you are putting a resistor in there. The rotary encoders are 2-bit not 1-bit. They need 2 switches for those 2 bits.

Finally broke a hundred posts! Though if that hacker wasn't around i'd have broken it last week.

Ahaha I've lost like 50 posts = ( was almost at 1337 posts.

I only showed one of the bits. There should be two of them on your whole matrix. The resistor stops the encoder from shorting the column pin straight to ground, in essence the way Its hooked up on mine will cause the bits to be inverted, but that is not a problem.

On yours I don't understand why you have Vol up and Vol down labeled. The encoder doesn't pulse 1 for a increment/decriment. It shows the state it is in. It is up to the MCU to interpret whether or not it is an increment or a decrement. Your design using the "Ground" as the 2nd pin of a switch also works. I hope you know the operation, because the Volup and Voldown labels aren't how the encoder is going to work.

[The_Ed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh27ftADFKo

First part shows with LEDs what will be sent to the teensy. Second half should be skipped... The on/off of the LEDs represent the open/closed of the mx switches. 2 bits, 2 switches, and the teensy will send the appropriate volume key code for each full cycle. I have volume up/down labeled because if they are the first to close in the cycle, then that is the direction I will have the volume go. Even though technically it is the combination of the switches that send the appropriate grey code for volume up/down. 2 extra diodes are needed per rotary encoder to prevent ghosting.

I am using diodes and you don't understand me.
You are using resistors and your bits are inverted, whatever that means. And I don't understand you.
As long as they both work everything is fine.

[hazeluff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh27ftADFKo

First part shows with LEDs what will be sent to the teensy. Second half should be skipped... The on/off of the LEDs represent the open/closed of the mx switches. 2 bits, 2 switches, and the teensy will send the appropriate volume key code for each full cycle. I have volume up/down labeled because if they are the first to close in the cycle, then that is the direction I will have the volume go. Even though technically it is the combination of the switches that send the appropriate grey code for volume up/down. 2 extra diodes are needed per rotary encoder to prevent ghosting.

I am using diodes and you don't understand me.
You are using resistors and your bits are inverted, whatever that means. And I don't understand you.
As long as they both work everything is fine.

Yeah, you're good. = P

Waiting for my phantom~

So. Maybe we can get this project rolling soon = p. I need to colaborate the LED stuff with the rest and see what happens.

[The_Ed]

I will only join if it is a 104 or 104+. 129 keys can be put into a g80/g81 -3000 case without changing the spacing. 13 below the F-keys, 3 below scroll lock, 5 above the arrows, 4 above the numpad. And even with all those keys the "lock" LEDs stay the same, and there is an extra inch and a half above everything still for all the controller crap.

[hazeluff]

I will only join if it is a 104 or 104+. 129 keys can be put into a g80/g81 -3000 case without changing the spacing. 13 below the F-keys, 3 below scroll lock, 5 above the arrows, 4 above the numpad. And even with all those keys the "lock" LEDs stay the same, and there is an extra inch and a half above everything still for all the controller crap.

It will be 104+ since, it out of the projects here, it is the only layout missing. Definitely will do the +4 above the numpad and the +5 above the arrow. But I don't think we will do the 13 under the function (? There isn't enough spacing to put another row of function keys there). I don't want to reduce the distance between the function and number rows as well.

[alaricljs]

Well, if there's a target case then someone needs to provide measurements for the case.  All the standoff locations and how the holes in the top frame correlate to those standoffs.

And it does look as though the spacing on the g80-3000 F-row is such that a set of keys would fit between it and the num-row.

[hazeluff]

Well, if there's a target case then someone needs to provide measurements for the case.  All the standoff locations and how the holes in the top frame correlate to those standoffs.

And it does look as though the spacing on the g80-3000 F-row is such that a set of keys would fit between it and the num-row.

Ewwww... Thats so far away. I'd target the standard 104 layout case. Filco/Ducky/Whatever?

[The_Ed]

You could use the added 13 key row as your F-key row. You are free to program it as you wish. The 129 key layout can be anything you want it to be. If the LED windows were moved on a g80/g81 -3000 case you could fit 133 keys. And if the F-key row spaces were removed you could fit 4 more on that and extra row below, totaling 137. I would rather stay at 129 to not mess with the layout.

I just looked at a picture of a leopold and there wouldn't be able to have the extra 4 above the numpad even. Same for filco. I'm seeing ducky's with 4 keys already there.

Maybe I'm just used to "mod room"... Call me old fashioned... I personally prefer the F-keys farther away, so the extra 13 + 3 would be macros or whatever. I don't want to accidentally quick save/load when I didn't mean it... stuff like that... And it's really only like what 6mm farther right?

If I have to I could take apart one of my g80's and measure and take pictures. Should I, or would I just be wasting my time?...

I did some digging and I got all the way back to 1999 for the idea of an individually controlled LED mechanical keyboard! It was DECK Keyboards! -

fredDarmstadt, Great idea(s), individualy addressable LEDs, a whole 104 keyboards worth. we looked at that in aprox 1999 and didn't do it as it's expensive, and we didn't know any 3rd party software developers who would REALY be interested. but maybe the time has come. In about 4 months, we will introduce a standard 104 key layout KB with the same 50 million cycle keys and the same LED backlighting as we have and the same negative image keycaps we now have. Hey keep those ideas coming. you can E-MAIL me at tech support.
TOM g

I think he was talking about the DECK Legend. Which is why in 2008 a guy made the Legend what it almost was.



Almost all of that will be internalized in the teensy and traces, I hope...

[hazeluff]

You could use the added 13 key row as your F-key row. You are free to program it as you wish. The 129 key layout can be anything you want it to be. If the LED windows were moved on a g80/g81 -3000 case you could fit 133 keys. And if the F-key row spaces were removed you could fit 4 more on that and extra row below, totaling 137. I would rather stay at 129 to not mess with the layout.

I just looked at a picture of a leopold and there wouldn't be able to have the extra 4 above the numpad even. Same for filco. I'm seeing ducky's with 4 keys already there.

Maybe I'm just used to "mod room"... Call me old fashioned... I personally prefer the F-keys farther away, so the extra 13 + 3 would be macros or whatever. I don't want to accidentally quick save/load when I didn't mean it... stuff like that... And it's really only like what 6mm farther right?

If I have to I could take apart one of my g80's and measure and take pictures. Should I, or would I just be wasting my time?...

I did some digging and I got all the way back to 1999 for the idea of an individually controlled LED mechanical keyboard! It was DECK Keyboards! -



I think he was talking about the DECK Legend. Which is why in 2008 a guy made the Legend what it almost was.

Show Image

Almost all of that will be internalized in the teensy and traces, I hope...

Obviously the +4 above the numpad and the +5 above the arrows won't fit in a standard case. This is cos it's a nonstandard layout. BUT you can still go for the extra keys if you wanted to, you'd just need to get your own case. The board will give the option for extra keys, but not compulsary.

As for the mess of wires you see there. That will be reduced significantly. We do the Column/Row polling we do for switches, but with LEDs. The lights are turned on one by one at a high frequency. Also If we do the SMD and use traces for the LED routes, then there should heopfully no wires flying about. = ). Where was the guy doing the LED controll stuff...

As for the Cherry G80 case. No need to rush for it. But I'd prefer it to fit the more standard layout, where the F keys were slightly closer than the G80.

[7bit]

full 104 keys
fits in cheap g80-3000 cases
LEDs - inside the switches
n-key rollover - diodes next to the switches
PCB mount holes - for if no plate is wanted

This should cover all but the tenkeyless crowd right? But then they already have a phantom.

No 104 key layout is boring. There are so many already in the market!
What about a HHKB clone?

I would not complain about the possibility to have LEDs in the switches.

Uh yeah, so where are those cheap cases found?  Someone had said g80-3000 and I go to ebay and look to see the cheapest is $90.  Errr wha?

What about using G81 cases? There are tons of them, once the key caps came off ...

[7bit]

Uh yeah, so where are those cheap cases found?  Someone had said g80-3000 and I go to ebay and look to see the cheapest is $90.  Errr wha?

What about using G81 cases? There are tons of them, once the key caps came off ...

[hazeluff]

No 104 key layout is boring. There are so many already in the market!
What about a HHKB clone?

I would not complain about the possibility to have LEDs in the switches.



What about using G81 cases? There are tons of them, once the key caps came off ...

Well 104 is boring, but its one of the layouts not done already and its different in because of the lighting. I'm argueing cos it's what I like. But I'm going for no less than TKL/7bit (but with proper numpad for the right bit; essentiall extra column of switches next to the home/arrow cluster).

As for the HHKB clone, Isn't that like the DOX?

If we can get a ton of cases, it would make it slightly more economical, but I still find it weird that the function row is so far away. I need them for games.

[The_Ed]

I've probably posted this like 10 times (most are probably still "missing") here already, but g80/g81 -3000 cases are EXACTLY the same. I use the F-keys for games too, but I've gotten used to and prefer the greater distance now. The cherry cases have the most "mod room" and are EXTREMELY cheap, especially if bought in bulk when they show up. If the extra row of 20 switches is put in between the F and number rows, you can use that as your F-row instead. You can program any switch to be any switch. There are virtual key codes for F1-F24, so make the original F-key row F13-F24. A 129 key layout PCB would have the original 104 in the correct positions for the cherry cases. You would simply cut out the plastic and populate whichever extra switch locations you want. I would for sure use at least 9 extra switch locations for the media keys and knobs. And I may cut out and populate others for macros if I feel like it. That is why the 129 is also known as the 104+. It can be used as a regular 104, or up to a 129, thus it is +.

It is hard to carry on this discussion when parts have disappeared at least 3 times that I've noticed.

[hazeluff]

I've probably posted this like 10 times (most are probably still "missing") here already, but g80/g81 -3000 cases are EXACTLY the same. I use the F-keys for games too, but I've gotten used to and prefer the greater distance now. The cherry cases have the most "mod room" and are EXTREMELY cheap, especially if bought in bulk when they show up. If the extra row of 20 switches is put in between the F and number rows, you can use that as your F-row instead. You can program any switch to be any switch. There are virtual key codes for F1-F24, so make the original F-key row F13-F24. A 129 key layout PCB would have the original 104 in the correct positions for the cherry cases. You would simply cut out the plastic and populate whichever extra switch locations you want. I would for sure use at least 9 extra switch locations for the media keys and knobs. And I may cut out and populate others for macros if I feel like it. That is why the 129 is also known as the 104+. It can be used as a regular 104, or up to a 129, thus it is +.

It is hard to carry on this discussion when parts have disappeared at least 3 times that I've noticed.

But I really like the normal distance between the number and function row ><. I already have enough trouble doing ctrl+f1 with one hand, any more and I'd be stretching way too far. (and no I'm not open to swapping capslock and ctrl).

I also OCD, and if I had a keyboard with the extra distance between the two, It'd feel so wrong.

Also, I'm one of the people who'd rather get a custom case than use the cherry one.

I reckon it'd fit in a rubber dome case:
http://www.rosewill.com/products/1580/ProductDetail_Overview.htm#/Mgnt/Uploads/ImagesForProduct/ImgPrd-1580-Cm[5c0e9ae52d994ac2ba5bff4413bd458d].jpg
These cost like $15...There are probably other brands too with decent cases.

I'd just like to keep the look I'm used to intact.

[The_Ed]

What part of the F-keys on your board would be closer don't you understand? Your F-keys would be the extra row of keys in the empty space.

[hazeluff]

What part of the F-keys on your board would be closer don't you understand? Your F-keys would be the extra row of keys in the empty space.

I Don't like that either...Sorry should of been clear.

Maybe we can HAVE BOTH!. I'm a genius, no more argueing. I can't imagine it adding a lot of routing since the switches for what i want and what you want are in parallel and can never both be used at the same time.

[The_Ed]

Both? Cherry case and rosewill case universal? I would think that the PCB switch mount holes would make this impossible. But if it's possible then our bickering is done!

[hazeluff]

Both? Cherry case and rosewill case universal? I would think that the PCB switch mount holes would make this impossible. But if it's possible then our bickering is done!

Its like how the phantom has multiple places to place the shift switch. It should still work, since they are in parallel. I can't seen it adding so much routing that it causes a problem.

[The_Ed]

Remember that with the LED control there is DOUBLE the routing.

[hazeluff]

Remember that with the LED control there is DOUBLE the routing.

I see. But...we're only extending the existing one. I don't think it'll obstruct anything. We'll have to see what happens when we implement such a thing.

[The_Ed]

FOR SCIENCE!

[hazeluff]

FOR SCIENCE!

And believe me I am still alive
I'm doing science and I'm still alive
I feel FANTASTIC and I'm still alive
While you are dying I'll be still alive
And when you're dead I'll be still alive
STILL ALIVE
still alive

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39507[/ATTACH]

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39508[/ATTACH]

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39509[/ATTACH]

[The_Ed]

I LOVE PORTAL!

[hazeluff]

I LOVE PORTAL!

I even have extra portal 1+2 keys on steam. ><

[The_Ed]

Preordered huh?

CRAP! I just realized... We also need the mounting holes for PCB mount cherry g99 stabilizers!

[hazeluff]

Preordered huh?

CRAP! I just realized... We also need the mounting holes for PCB mount cherry g99 stabilizers!

Can it not be plate mount?

Will this affect the board too much?

If alaricljs has a circuit for for the LED stuff, and I can get round to using the software for drawing up PCBs. We can see what space we have available on the board.

[7bit]

I've probably posted this like 10 times (most are probably still "missing") here already, but g80/g81 -3000 cases are EXACTLY the same. I use the F-keys for games too, but I've gotten used to and prefer the greater distance now. The cherry cases have the most "mod room" and are EXTREMELY cheap, especially if bought in bulk when they show up. If the extra row of 20 switches is put in between the F and number rows, you can use that as your F-row instead.

That's a good point

...
It is hard to carry on this discussion when parts have disappeared at least 3 times that I've noticed.

I recommend to move over to DT with this ...

[7bit]

I Don't like that either...Sorry should of been clear.

Maybe we can HAVE BOTH!. I'm a genius, no more argueing. I can't imagine it adding a lot of routing since the switches for what i want and what you want are in parallel and can never both be used at the same time.

This should work. If not turn the switches around 90 degrees and we have the same situation as with the Phantm PCB (function row).

PCB vs Plate mounting: With the switch-opening-cutouts, there should be no argument against platemounting anymore.

Can we please have an extra column of switches on the left?

[7bit]

The trouble with Deskthority.net is it's filled with foreigners.

I will tell webwit to close your account to reduce the number of posts done by foreigners @Deskthority significantly!

[hazeluff]

This should work. If not turn the switches around 90 degrees and we have the same situation as with the Phantm PCB (function row).

PCB vs Plate mounting: With the switch-opening-cutouts, there should be no argument against platemounting anymore.

Can we please have an extra column of switches on the left?

If we do, it won't fit most cases. = /

Plate mounting imo is the way to go, specially with the lovely side holes on the phantom ones <3.

[The_Ed]

Okay! new list for 104+:

104
+ 5 above arrows
+ 4 above numpad
+ Esc through Pause/Break in double positions - in "regular" and cherry G80/G81 -3000 positions

Individually controlled LEDs - fit through holes in mx switches and solder to traces on the PCB
Fits into "regular" and cherry G80/G81 -3000 cases
n-key rollover - diodes next to the switches - possibly SMD and possibly already preinstalled
PCB switch mount holes - for if no plate is wanted
Cherry G99 stabilizer PCB mount holes - for if no plate is used and cherry stabilizers are wanted

7bit - Do you have a pile G81-3000 cases for those who want a cheap case here? I'll probably just buy a cheap G80-3000 for myself to get the case, PCB mount G99 stabilizers, and PCB mount switch bottoms.

[hazeluff]

Sadly the idea still doesn't the normal Filco cases. But that's ok with me I guess.

[The_Ed]

Why wont it fit filco? And I just realized that we will have to have wires running from the 3 "lock" switches' LEDs to also light up the LEDs in the upper right. They will be in parallel.

[hazeluff]

Why wont it fit filco? And I just realized that we will have to have wires running from the 3 "lock" switches' LEDs to also light up the LEDs in the upper right. They will be in parallel.

Because the extra "row" added above the numberpad, will make the PCB longer than the case of a FILCO. Tho Why would anyone use a good keyboard's case for this. Might as well get a custom. But just my 2cents on that.

Possible we may need flyovers for those LEDs.

[alaricljs]

As for why a direct replacement for Filco, plenty of people have a Filco and might be interested in changing it up a little.  1 PCB and a teensy would be all you need, re-use the rest of the Filco and you have a relatively inexpensive way to a custom firmware KB platform.  Even cheaper with a Rosewill.

[The_Ed]

"flyovers" == wires or traces? By the way, are we going to be using the Teensy++ w/ Pins? I don't see how there would be enough pins otherwise.

[hazeluff]

"flyovers" == wires or traces? By the way, are we going to be using the Teensy++ w/ Pins? I don't see how there would be enough pins otherwise.

No i mean wires if it doesn't fit.

I think the firmware may have to alternate between polling and doing the LEDs.

[The_Ed]

Alternate? There would have to be A LOT of extra diodes to allow that...