Author Topic: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion) (Read 121569 times)

alaricljs · « **Reply #400 on:** Thu, 01 March 2012, 07:50:34 »

Kester 44 is great... I haven't found a way to solder SMD without extra flux tho.

Parak · « **Reply #401 on:** Thu, 01 March 2012, 08:59:03 »

Yeah, I use MG Chemicals 835-100ML for SMDs, which is really cheap compared to what flux pens costs. They also claim there's no need to remove residue, but it just looks really nasty after an application or two.

alaricljs · « **Reply #402 on:** Thu, 01 March 2012, 09:00:54 »

That's exactly what I've got (except a whole liter) and yes, it's ugly if you don't clean it off. I'm working on methods to apply less. The 'bottle syringe' I've got lets way too much out at one time.

Parak · « **Reply #403 on:** Thu, 01 March 2012, 09:07:24 »

Quote from: alaricljs;531942

That's exactly what I've got (except a whole liter) and yes, it's ugly if you don't clean it off. I'm working on methods to apply less. The 'bottle syringe' I've got lets way too much out at one time.

Try a quick dunk with a qtip, squeezing it against the side of the can or something if you get too much.

The_Ed · « **Reply #404 on:** Mon, 05 March 2012, 19:36:23 »

Status update? I bought a set of vintage doubleshot F13-F24 from Tarkoon. And yes I know beige/grey clashes with black. I just couldn't find them in black.

hazeluff · « **Reply #405 on:** Mon, 05 March 2012, 19:44:47 »

Quote from: The_Ed;536260

Status update? I bought a set of vintage doubleshot F13-F24 from Tarkoon. And yes I know beige/grey clashes with black. I just couldn't find them in black.

Im swamped with work. This is a side thing for me, on top of many things...Sorry if you had high hopes for fast completion.

I'll try to put in some time when I can. I got 4 coursework due in 3 weeks...

The_Ed · « **Reply #406 on:** Mon, 05 March 2012, 19:54:43 »

I won't have the switches from the phantom switch GB until close to the end of april I think. It would be nice to get these PCB finished and ordered before may so that it could be completed by the end of june. The time periods of these GB's kill me...

mkawa · « **Reply #407 on:** Mon, 05 March 2012, 21:31:58 »

i actually think it's not a bad idea to let this sit for a bit until we have some experience getting a lot of phantoms built. we're going to learn a lot with this first wave, and realistically even if we finished the design tomorrow it would be summer before we got product anyway.

litster · « **Reply #408 on:** Mon, 05 March 2012, 22:14:32 »

Quote from: mkawa;536408

i actually think it's not a bad idea to let this sit for a bit until we have some experience getting a lot of phantoms built. we're going to learn a lot with this first wave, and realistically even if we finished the design tomorrow it would be summer before we got product anyway.

Word.

The_Ed · « **Reply #409 on:** Thu, 08 March 2012, 22:07:33 »

I tried using radioshack desoldering braid a while ago. It doesn't have any flux on it... It didn't work - period, until I rubbed some of my dads ancient flux all over it. That just made a mess. Lesson learned - NEVER buy radioshack desoldering braid unless you're masochistic.

So I got myself some of that techspray no-clean desoldering braid - #2 and #4. IT'S FUCKING AWESOME! It sucks up all the solder in 3-5 seconds! Even out of the holes! There's nothing to clean up afterwards too! If any of you ever need to do some desoldering, you NEED to pick up some techspray no-clean desoldering braid. You won't regret it.

mkawa · « **Reply #410 on:** Thu, 08 March 2012, 23:23:05 »

really? i have some radioshack brand braid that has a perfectly reasonably amount of flux in it...

The_Ed · « **Reply #411 on:** Thu, 08 March 2012, 23:30:53 »

You have some of their OLD braid. The NEW stuff they currently sell has no flux whatsoever.

bpiphany · « **Reply #412 on:** Sat, 24 March 2012, 04:25:54 »

So I sort of gave up on the LED-stuffed board. I'm too busy, this is what I have been working on instead. My universal Filco replacement PCB.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 45511[/ATTACH]

Properties
◦ Filco standard layout ISO/ANSI/JP.
◦ Cherry 1.5 modifier layout including off-center caps lock.
◦ Realforce layout.
◦ Full 7bit layout with all the extra keys.
◦ My own symmetric stagger layout.
◦ Location of the numpad and navblock can be swapped.
◦ PCB fits a full size Filco case or the tenkeyless Filco case.
◦ Numpad, navblock, and function row can be cut off, leaving a fully functional board.
◦ All sorts of different non-standard shift row setups.
◦ PCB mount stabilizer holes need to be drilled post manufacturing.

Things I still need to sort out.
◦ Placing all the controller components somewhere.
◦ Routing the monster.
◦ Programming the controller.
◦ Might need to replace some more holes with slots.
◦ Need to add stabilizer locations for the JP 4.5 unit spacebar.

Game Theory · « **Reply #413 on:** Sat, 24 March 2012, 11:55:55 »

Having missed the initial Phantom round this sounds great to me.

mkawa · « **Reply #414 on:** Sat, 24 March 2012, 11:58:49 »

prins, i think i've found someone who can give me a very crashy course on pcb design. do you think you can send what you have for the LED stuffed? (was this the 60% or the bigger?)

litster · « **Reply #415 on:** Sat, 24 March 2012, 12:05:29 »

PrinsValium, is it possible to add holes for PCB mount switches? From what I can tell on your screen shot, some switch locations are doable, but the overlapping ones look iffy.

Are you going with and SMD controller this time?

captain · « **Reply #416 on:** Sat, 24 March 2012, 12:37:06 »

We should make the next GH keyboard WIRELESS BLUETOOTH. Maybe with a USB backup and rechargeable lipo battery. :-)

I have been looking into this and the bluesmirf HID seems to be the way to go.
http://www.sparkfun.com/products/10938

The_Ed · « **Reply #417 on:** Sat, 24 March 2012, 18:17:28 »

I could live without LEDs, but I need my PCB mounting holes damnit! You have holes for more layouts than what currently exists. But no PCB mounting holes for those that don't use plates? Why can't the switch and stabilizer PCB mounting holes be drilled out? Why is plateless the only layout NOT supported?

And wireless ANYTHING sucks. Laggy, unresponsive, or the batteries are dead... Wired just works. You don't "fix" what works.

I'm a little cranky from lack of sleep...

Edit: You could mod yours to be wireless, but everything I've had that's been wireless has never "worked".

bpiphany · « **Reply #418 on:** Sun, 25 March 2012, 08:17:12 »

There might be room on the PCB for the extra switch holes on most locations. It gets really messy where there are many (partially) overlapping switch locations.

Overlapping switch holes can be slotted since the solder pad still keeps the switches in place. Stabilizer mount holes cannot overlap just like that. They need to have the correct shape, or the stabilizer won't stick to the PCB. Pilot holes in the correct location is the best solution I can see.

Furthermore, I think plate mounting is the future.

There is a very crashy course in keyboard PCB design that I wrote =) I don't really think I am ahead of anyone else in the LED keyboard design.

Findecanor · « **Reply #419 on:** Sun, 25 March 2012, 10:41:31 »

Quote from: PrinsValium;555365

◦ Numpad, navblock, and function row can be cut off, leaving a fully functional board.

Yeah, but you can't move a section to the left side.

Quote from: PrinsValium;556195

There might be room on the PCB for the extra switch holes on most locations. It gets really messy where there are many (partially) overlapping switch locations.

A few weeks ago I sketched this in Inkscape (with only approximate hole dimensions). Yes, really messy... and you can't have LEDs because LEDs would require all switches to be oriented one way.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 45632[/ATTACH]

mkawa · « **Reply #420 on:** Sun, 25 March 2012, 11:28:31 »

rargh, just realized i'm going to be out of town for like 3 weeks anyway. garrhhg

captain · « **Reply #421 on:** Sun, 25 March 2012, 12:32:08 »

Quote from: The_Ed;555817

And wireless ANYTHING sucks. Laggy, unresponsive, or the batteries are dead... Wired just works. You don't "fix" what works.

I'm a little cranky from lack of sleep...

Edit: You could mod yours to be wireless, but everything I've had that's been wireless has never "worked".

Ok mr cranky, but my suggestion gives the best of BOTH worlds! USB for direct connection and charging; Bluetooth for using with ANY device, like the damn iPad I'm addicted to lately. ;-)

AA batteries might be a better power source. Recharging can be a PITA. Tossing in three new AAs is no big deal, and you can always use rechargeable ones.

The Apple Bluetooth keyboard works great! It's problem is that it only comes in rubber dome or scissor switches. I want a Bluetooth Filco blue or HHKB.

hazeluff · « **Reply #422 on:** Sun, 25 March 2012, 13:50:06 »

Right I'm almost starting my Easter "break" (Lol, sif I can actually rest in it). I'm just having a thought of what I've done already, and I just remember, It is not possible to do my crazy super layout without having LEDs facing the wrong way. Thinking of that, I may just go for a phantom-esque 104 layout.

I think a wireless+rechargeable keyboard is interesting, specially if you like sitting back away from the desk while working on your computer. But I think it would be nice for like the DOX and not so much for larger layouts. But that's my opinion. Also we need someone to design the rechargeable part...oh wait....I could very well do that...@_@ like use the cable to charge or to connect with the wire to the PC.

The_Ed · « **Reply #423 on:** Sun, 25 March 2012, 15:09:48 »

Quote from: Findecanor;556258

A few weeks ago I sketched this in Inkscape (with only approximate hole dimensions). Yes, really messy... and you can't have LEDs because LEDs would require all switches to be oriented one way.
(Attachment Link) 45632[/ATTACH]

If PrinsValium turns the switches like you did he could fit all of the PCB mount switch holes right? Pilot holes for the PCB mount stabilizer holes would be a compromise I could live with. Just as long as plateless is fully supported I'm good. I'd buy a few PCBs so I can try different things too.

litster · « **Reply #424 on:** Sun, 25 March 2012, 18:32:43 »

Quote from: The_Ed;556414

If PrinsValium turns the switches like you did he could fit all of the PCB mount switch holes right? Pilot holes for the PCB mount stabilizer holes would be a compromise I could live with. Just as long as plateless is fully supported I'm good. I'd buy a few PCBs so I can try different things too.

With the 7bit layout support built into the PCB design, I don't think it is possible to have fully supported plateless design because of vast amount of overlapping switch locations. My request to have the tiny holes to support PCB-mount switches is only for when you want to use PCB-mount Cherry switches in a plate-mounted configuration (e.g. easier to acquire, harvest from old boards).

The_Ed · « **Reply #425 on:** Sun, 25 March 2012, 21:23:13 »

Quote from: litster;556562

With the 7bit layout support built into the PCB design, I don't think it is possible to have fully supported plateless design because of vast amount of overlapping switch locations. My request to have the tiny holes to support PCB-mount switches is only for when you want to use PCB-mount Cherry switches in a plate-mounted configuration (e.g. easier to acquire, harvest from old boards).

That is a second reason for having the holes that I hadn't thought of.

mkawa · « **Reply #426 on:** Sun, 25 March 2012, 21:28:08 »

the whole point of this board is LEDs. we can't turn the switches, and even if we could, i think the vast majority prefer plate mounting at this point.

if you want to cheap out on switches by harvesting old ones, i don't know that a custom PCB is really the way to go -- just harvest a pcb while you're at it...

litster · « **Reply #427 on:** Sun, 25 March 2012, 22:44:43 »

The Phantom prototype I built has vintage Cherry MX Brown springs and stems. I like it more than any of my Filcos. Also, there will be times that you will only be able to get a hold of PCB-mount Cherry switches, new or vintage. It is not every day you can join a Cherry switch group buy to order whatever switch type you want. Tell me, when was the last time you joined a Cherry switch group buy before the Phantom group buy? There are people who joined the Phantom group buy for other parts but didn't order any switches.

I am not advocating to do a PCB-mount design only. Just the flexibility to use PCB-mount switches in a plate-mount design.

mkawa · « **Reply #428 on:** Sun, 25 March 2012, 23:49:00 »

i'd be all for it if it were possible (i actually preferred it for simplicity's sake prior to buying a poker, lol), but it doesn't really seem possible.

also i have trouble believing there's any significant difference between vintage switch parts and new switch parts that actuating the new switch a couple million times wouldn't fix.

hazeluff · « **Reply #429 on:** Mon, 26 March 2012, 11:11:00 »

Quote from: mkawa;556718

the whole point of this board is LEDs. we can't turn the switches, and even if we could, i think the vast majority prefer plate mounting at this point.

if you want to cheap out on switches by harvesting old ones, i don't know that a custom PCB is really the way to go -- just harvest a pcb while you're at it...

Yeah, we can turn the switches, but some LEDs would be rotated instead of all uniformly in the same direction.

Question: LEDs above or bellow?

mkawa · « **Reply #430 on:** Mon, 26 March 2012, 12:24:48 »

i vote for uniformly below..

alaricljs · « **Reply #431 on:** Mon, 26 March 2012, 12:32:55 »

Typically backlit KBs have the LED above. So if you want compatibility with any available backlit keycaps, it would need to be above.

hazeluff · « **Reply #432 on:** Mon, 26 March 2012, 12:38:20 »

Quote from: alaricljs;557370

Typically backlit KBs have the LED above. So if you want compatibility with any available backlit keycaps, it would need to be above.

Yeah that sounds right. If i get round to restarting, i will do this = D

The_Ed · « **Reply #433 on:** Mon, 26 March 2012, 17:47:24 »

Quote from: litster;556786

The Phantom prototype I built has vintage Cherry MX Brown springs and stems. I like it more than any of my Filcos. Also, there will be times that you will only be able to get a hold of PCB-mount Cherry switches, new or vintage. It is not every day you can join a Cherry switch group buy to order whatever switch type you want. Tell me, when was the last time you joined a Cherry switch group buy before the Phantom group buy? There are people who joined the Phantom group buy for other parts but didn't order any switches.

I am not advocating to do a PCB-mount design only. Just the flexibility to use PCB-mount switches in a plate-mount design.

The PCB-mount switch holes will allow people like me to go plateless and other people to harvest switches from junk boards to save money. There are SO MANY layouts on that PCB but somehow this has been overlooked...

mkawa · « **Reply #434 on:** Tue, 27 March 2012, 05:01:58 »

Quote from: alaricljs;557370

Typically backlit KBs have the LED above. So if you want compatibility with any available backlit keycaps, it would need to be above.

doesn't the race have them below?

alaricljs · « **Reply #435 on:** Tue, 27 March 2012, 07:38:07 »

Nope, first 5 seconds of this vid should be enough proof:
[video=youtube;clnmiOM7aF4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clnmiOM7aF4[/video]

Besides, I did say typical and all the retail boards pretty much cover typical.

bpiphany · « **Reply #436 on:** Tue, 27 March 2012, 09:18:39 »

If I start rotating switches in all kind of directions all over, someone is for sure going to complain that they feel different mounted in different orientations. Also it gets insanely messy =P

My work flow usually goes something like this: "Lets keep as many of the switches as possible in the PCB mount footprint." "Let me just take this hole out of that footprint, and the other one out of this one..." "It sure would be effin' great if those holes overlapped when switches are placed 1/2 unit apart, this way there will be a ton of slot holes." "Damnit, plate mounting is the **** anyways."

A lot of the footprints can certainly be made PCB mount compatible. Some locations with only one of the holes present, the other one being eaten by a larger hole of another footprint. This would of course improve something on stability, and ease straight mounting. Believe it or not, but all those small holes actually get in the way when trying to route everything somewhat neatly =P

Last, I have a question as well. If the controller is surface mount directly to the main PCB, should the diodes be SMD as well or do you think it is better to keep them through hole since all the switches are anyhow?

alaricljs · « **Reply #437 on:** Tue, 27 March 2012, 11:12:31 »

Well, as you said all those holes can make routing stuff a *****. SMD diodes might make it easier to route everything and they're the easist SMD soldering.

hazeluff · « **Reply #438 on:** Tue, 27 March 2012, 11:17:46 »

I definitely if you order a good amount, that it's worth the SMD Diodes, It makes everything neater. Routing and aesthetics. Also while your at it, you may want to SMD the MC.

So many things for me to do, but I really want to get back to designing my board = ( (also some thought into it makes be believe that I can only do one layout, because of the LEDs. If only the holes weren't horizontally next to each other... damnit...

The_Ed · « **Reply #439 on:** Wed, 28 March 2012, 03:39:54 »

I forgot to ask this earlier but are cherry off-center spacebars compatible with your new PCB PrinsValium?

Can you just put in every PCB-mount switch hole that fits without turning the switches then? 1 PCB-mount pin hole is sufficient to mount a PCB-mount switch in those slots.

mkawa · « **Reply #440 on:** Wed, 28 March 2012, 20:38:53 »

1) yah, SMD all the way.

2) how many people actually _need_ pcb mounting holes? if it's only 1, it makes much more sense to get rid of them to free up space for routing and components. we're already surface mounting the controller, i mean, seriously.. this is not a board for the cheapskate or faint of heart.

The_Ed · « **Reply #441 on:** Wed, 28 March 2012, 22:32:13 »

I agree to SMD. But people could harvest switches from old cherry boards if there were PCB mounting holes. And I myself could go plateless. By allowing people to harvest switches there would probably be quite a few more orders as it would be cheaper to make one of these custom boards.

mkawa · « **Reply #442 on:** Thu, 29 March 2012, 01:16:56 »

so far it's just you and litster.

litster · « **Reply #443 on:** Thu, 29 March 2012, 02:07:18 »

If there is a way to drill holes into the PCB to install Cherry PCB-mount stabilizers, and sounds like there is, I will be fine. That is all I'd need to make an acrylic-plate-mount keyboard. Plate-mount stabilizers would not work for this application.

bpiphany · « **Reply #444 on:** Thu, 29 March 2012, 11:07:02 »

It is not completely trivial to drill the stabilizer holes, a good drill press really helps. This Dremel Workstation doesn't cut it. It totally messes up larger dimensions like the 0.120" and 0.157" holes, even with good quality high speed carbide drills.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 46229[/ATTACH]
See the stabilizer holes on this one =P
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 46227[/ATTACH]
This one might be a bit heavier than necessary =) but a dream in comparison (on good days when the school kids haven't re-adjusted it...).
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 46231[/ATTACH]
There are no pilot holes on this laminate, but you should be able to picture the idea. Brad pointed drills like this center themselves nicely.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 46230[/ATTACH]

I'll make the diodes SMD then.

Here is a size comparison of the Atmel chips. The leadless ones are the ATmega32u4 that comes on the Teensy. The large ones are the leaded counterpart. The smaller chips in the middle are the simpler ATmega32u2.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 46228[/ATTACH]

mkawa · « **Reply #445 on:** Thu, 29 March 2012, 13:08:53 »

keep in mind that you can't drill out the stabilizer holes if there are traces routed through there

litster · « **Reply #446 on:** Thu, 29 March 2012, 13:37:18 »

Quote from: mkawa;560543

keep in mind that you can't drill out the stabilizer holes if there are traces routed through there

I am sure PrinsValium will route the traces around stabilizer pilot holes if they could be drilled into wider, bigger holes.

The_Ed · « **Reply #447 on:** Thu, 29 March 2012, 16:37:14 »

My question of whether or not cherry off-center spacebars will work on this PCB still hasn't been answered.

PCB mounting pin holes should be included wherever they are not eaten whole by another hole. This will allow people to scrounge from old boards and for me specifically to go plateless. Plus I have too many switches with PCB mounting pins I would like to be able to use. Why should everyone be forced to buy new platemount switches? Just include the holes.

litster · « **Reply #448 on:** Thu, 29 March 2012, 17:26:19 »

Quote from: The_Ed;560790

Just include the holes.

Is that a suggestion, a request, or a demand?

mkawa · « **Reply #449 on:** Thu, 29 March 2012, 17:33:05 »

he's willing to pay for one hole if other people chip in for the rest.

News:

Author Topic: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion) (Read 121569 times)