Author Topic: Here's why America is ****ed.  (Read 32203 times)

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Offline Malphas

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« Reply #200 on: Tue, 03 April 2012, 18:46:46 »
Actually it sort of is theft because it's not consensual on an individual level, yet on the other hand it's dumb to call it theft because it does have majority consent, and an implied consent when you take part in the elements of society that result in you paying tax (e.g. using government controlled currency and infrastructure). I would be a lot more sympathetic to the idea that taxation was immoral if it was being said by people living in a forest, growing their own food and trading in pelts, rather than "libertarians" (which I sort of am in theory) using government dollars, government-enabled Internet, government owned roads, etc. etc.

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #201 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 07:55:22 »
Well, I think some forms of taxation are theft. For example, I'm ALL for taxing hookers, gambling, marijuana, cigarettes and booze.

But taxing my freaking income??? THAT is theft.

Offline Malphas

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« Reply #202 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 11:55:56 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;567526
Well, I think some forms of taxation are theft. For example, I'm ALL for taxing hookers, gambling, marijuana, cigarettes and booze.

But taxing my freaking income??? THAT is theft.

You're getting paid in US dollars right? That's pieces of paper, or numbers in computers that only have their value because of the US government.  You're voluntarily engaging with the system, so the implication is that you consent to that system's rules.  It's not that I'm pro-income tax, it's just that the "tax = theft" argument, that libertarians love spouting, is simplistic, unjustified nonsense.  Like I said, if you were trading your services for buckskins or something else that wasn't a fiat currency that only derives it value as a result of government promises, then you might have a point.  Otherwise it's utterly hypocritical.
« Last Edit: Thu, 05 April 2012, 11:58:36 by Malphas »

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #203 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 12:05:54 »
So you're saying that by having a job I'm consenting to my income being taxed? I'm sorry but I don't buy that.

Offline sth

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« Reply #204 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 12:08:37 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;567526
Well, I think some forms of taxation are theft. For example, I'm ALL for taxing hookers, gambling, marijuana, cigarettes and booze.

But taxing my freaking income??? THAT is theft.
Yeah, **** housing subsidies for the poor, and paying down interest on the national debt, and NASA, and low-income children's health insurance. I want to buy more plastic **** for my computer.
 
I hope all those poor kids lose their homes and die, and that foreign countries begin to take over the United States the same way that corporations are taken over - by shares of debt with no concern for the welfare or wellbeing of the people who actually live here.

Not that the controlling interests in this country give a **** about us either. They just convinced you that income taxes are a bad thing for you in the same way that they're a bad thing for them.
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #205 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 12:12:52 »
Um...what?

Offline sth

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« Reply #206 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 12:20:04 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;567816
Um...what?
Oh, sorry, I forgot most people are against taxes as a blanket stance and don't actually bother to find out what their tax dollars go to.

Fed income tax also goes toward national 'defense' and law enforcement, so I'm not entirely in favor of the spending, but an income tax is not inherently bad. It's part of the social contract you are obliged to as part of a modern society, and progressive taxation is part of the way that a nation becomes modern and financially secure in a globally capitalist economy.

But it's more fun to ***** and whine about it than it is to, you know, read, and understand why income tax is not theft. You don't like income taxes? Check out Somalia, I hear they got it real good.
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #207 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 12:21:29 »
You seem to have not read my original post.

Quote from: keyboardlover;567526
Well, I think some forms of taxation are theft. For example, I'm ALL for taxing hookers, gambling, marijuana, cigarettes and booze.

But taxing my freaking income??? THAT is theft.

It's about taxing what makes SENSE.

Offline sth

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« Reply #208 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 12:26:25 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;567827
You seem to have not read my original post.



It's about taxing what makes SENSE.

And how, pray tell, does an income tax not 'make sense' compared to the other things you listed? At all?

What makes a sales or vice tax more appropriate than an income tax? By taxing vices, the government effectively becomes more addicted to the vice than the users of said vice.
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #209 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 12:59:35 »
Quote from: sth
And how, pray tell, does an income tax not 'make sense' compared to the other things you listed? At all?

What makes a sales or vice tax more appropriate than an income tax? By taxing vices, the government effectively becomes more addicted to the vice than the users of said vice.

Because income tax is theft; it's a loss of liberty. The money that I work my ass of to make is mine and none of it should go to the government.

Sales taxes I'm not a big fan of for the same reason. Vice taxes, on the other hand, make complete sense. People are going to pay money for these things whether they are illegal or not. So, by taxing them we at least provide a solid source of funding for the government based on something that does not infringe upon our personal liberties.

And vice taxes can provide a LOT of funding.

Offline sth

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« Reply #210 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 13:07:55 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;567876
The money that I work my ass of to make is mine.


Yeah those roads and fire departments and gas subsidies and the food you eat that is regulated for safety and access to education K-12 and the mothergoddamn****ing Internet and national parks and medicare/medicaid and social security and widespread access to communications infrastructure and public hospitals and housing assistance for single mothers and unemployment benefits and TANF and all that other **** that obviously doesn't matter because you got yours.

Grow up or take your liberty to Somalia.
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #211 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 13:31:42 »
No, I said pay for that stuff with money from a source that makes sense.

Hardcore liberals DO know how to read right? Have I mentioned the problems with our education system?

Offline sth

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« Reply #212 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 13:36:09 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;567911
No, I said pay for that stuff with money from a source that makes sense.

Hardcore liberals DO know how to read right? Have I mentioned the problems with our education system?

Okay good plan. Let's make all the smokers and alcoholics pay off the national debt. Any sober folks want to take up the cause? Uncle Sam needs you!

I don't know any 'hardcore liberals' because the people you refer to as 'hardcore liberals' are a figment of the GOP's slander campaign against common sense, reason and fiscal responsibility on a societal level.

When something is broken, you fix it.
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #213 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 13:38:08 »
I've yet to see common sense represented in any of your posts thus far.

Have you read it?



Speaking of fixing things that are broken, can you name one thing that our current president has fixed?

From what I can tell he just likes making broken things more broken.

Offline sth

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« Reply #214 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 13:41:34 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;567920
I've yet to see common sense represented in any of your posts thus far.

Have you read it?


Speaking of fixing things that our broken, can you name one thing that our current president has fixed?

From what I can tell he just likes making broken things more broken.

I've yet to see you make a point that hasn't been parroted by libertarian babies and GOP media machines for the last 20 years. You keep assuming I am a 'liberal' or a 'democrat' or that I think any president has been more than a figurehead...

But please, continue trying to back up your statements. I genuinely care.
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #215 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 13:44:39 »
Quote from: harrison;567926
are you suggesting that you be presented with a bill every month, and you'll pay THAT from some fund other than your income?

No.

Quote from: keyboardlover;567526
Well, I think some forms of taxation are theft. For example, I'm ALL for taxing hookers, gambling, marijuana, cigarettes and booze.

But taxing my freaking income??? THAT is theft.

Quote from: sth;567924
I've yet to see you make a point that hasn't been parroted by libertarian babies and GOP media machines for the last 20 years. You keep assuming I am a 'liberal' or a 'democrat' or that I think any president has been more than a figurehead...

But please, continue trying to back up your statements. I genuinely care.

« Last Edit: Thu, 05 April 2012, 13:46:52 by keyboardlover »

Offline sth

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« Reply #216 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 13:45:30 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;567930
No.
So you're saying you don't want to pay for things you use or are provided? Where's the ****ing money, Lebowski?
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #217 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 13:47:31 »
Quote from: sth;567931
So you're saying you don't want to pay for things you use or are provided? Where's the ****ing money, Lebowski?

You really can't read, can you?


Offline sth

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« Reply #218 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 13:50:44 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;567932
You really can't read, can you?

Show Image
Show Image
Show Image
Show Image

GOOD ONE BRO

But I mean, apparently not, so explain it to me. How do you figure vice taxes will make up for the amount of money collected for income taxes?
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Offline Malphas

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« Reply #219 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 13:51:56 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;567805
So you're saying that by having a job I'm consenting to my income being taxed? I'm sorry but I don't buy that.
You are whether you like it or not unfortunately. If you don't want to pay income tax then trade your labour for some other form of payment instead of fiat currency or a derivative thereof, then I would have a lot more sympathy for your position.

I don't have an issue with you making an argument against income tax, I'd probably agree with a lot of it.  It's the mindless parroting of the "tax is theft, tax is theft" line over and over like a lunatic that I take issue with (by libertarians in general, not just you).  You haven't addressed any of my points about how that argument is invalid, and your categorising of what taxes are acceptable and what aren't are entirely arbitrary and personal opinion as well - unless you can back them up with some sort of logic.  It's no more justified to have "vice taxes" than income tax, or sales tax.  The sale of cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, gambling is just as much a transaction between individuals as the sale of non-"vice" items is, or your employer paying you for your services.  The fact you're insinuating it's acceptable based on their status as vices, completely betrays your supposedly libertarian leanings.
« Last Edit: Thu, 05 April 2012, 13:58:14 by Malphas »

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #220 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 13:54:38 »
Quote from: sth;567934
GOOD ONE BRO

But I mean, apparently not, so explain it to me. How do you figure vice taxes will make up for the amount of money collected for income taxes?

"Make up for"? No, it's "far exceed".

Simple economics which are no longer taught in school I'm afraid :(

Offline sth

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« Reply #221 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 13:55:59 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;567936
"Make up for"? No, it's "far exceed".

Simple economics which are no longer taught in school I'm afraid :(

Please provide some proof. Or evidence. Or anything.
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« Reply #222 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 13:56:40 »
Quote from: Malphas;567935
You are whether you like it or not unfortunately.

I don't have an issue with you making an argument against income tax, I'd probably agree with a lot of it.  it's the mindless parroting of saying "tax is theft, tax is theft" over and over like a lunatic that I take issue with.  You haven't addressed any of my points about how that argument is invalid.  You're categorising of what taxes are acceptable what aren't are entirely arbitrary as personal opinion as well unless you can back them up with some sort of logic.  It's no more justified to have "vice taxes" than income tax, or sales tax.  The sale of cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, gambling is just as much a transaction between individuals as the sale of non-"vice" items is, or your employer paying you for your services.  The fact you're insinuating it's acceptable based on their status as vices, completely betrays your supposedly libertarian leanings.

Did I say tax is theft? I meant to say "income tax" is theft. My bad.

I already explained the difference between vice and income and why vices make more sense though.

Offline sth

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« Reply #223 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:01:31 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;567938
I already explained [...] why vices make more sense though.

No you did not. You said that people would buy their vices regardless of taxation.
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Offline Malphas

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« Reply #224 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:05:04 »
I'd say the idea that general expenditure should be paid for out of vice taxes is far more tyrannical than income tax. Income tax is far from perfect, but the idea at least is you're paying for services provided to you by the government (the problem is you never said you wanted said services in the first place, and the fact the amount you pay is proportional to what you earn rather than what you used).  What you seem to be suggesting is that government should still provide these services, but they should be paid for by taxing certain things because they're considered by society to be morally dubious.  That's massively dictatorial.

Offline Malphas

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« Reply #225 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:08:01 »
Quote from: sth;567942
No you did not. You said that people would buy their vices regardless of taxation.
Exactly.  You didn't provide any justification for why you think one set of personal transactions (sale of alcohol, cigarettes, gambling) is acceptable to tax, while a different set of personal transactions (general sales and your employer paying you) isn't.  It seems to be more a case of personal preference and what suits you, rather than any moral argument, which is why you should drop the "income tax is theft" nonsense, because it just damages any legitimate point you might have.

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #226 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:10:52 »
Quote from: Malphas
What you seem to be suggesting is that government should still provide these services, but they should be paid for by taxing certain things because they're considered by society to be morally dubious.  That's massively dictatorial.

Huh? What's more massively dictatorial than a government forcing me to pay them a portion of the money that I earned?

Quote from: Malphas;567949
Exactly.  You didn't provide any justification for why you think one set of personal transactions (sale of alcohol, cigarettes, gambling) is acceptable to tax, while a different set of personal transactions (general sales and your employer paying you) isn't.

Dude, we're talking about money that I earned vs. money that comes from payment for a vice. If you don't understand the difference and how it affects my personal liberty, I'm not sure what else to say.

Offline sth

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« Reply #227 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:12:53 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;567951
Huh? What's more massively dictatorial than a government forcing me to pay them a portion of the money that I earned?
A government deciding only to tax certain people based on what the current administration considers a vice.
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Offline Malphas

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« Reply #228 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:19:26 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;567951
Huh? What's more massively dictatorial than a government forcing me to pay them a portion of the money that I earned?



Dude, we're talking about money that I earned vs. money that comes from payment for a vice. If you don't understand the difference and how it affects my personal liberty, I'm not sure what else to say.

What you suggested obviously - a minority of people paying for everyone else.  Why do you find that hard to understand?  Assuming you didn't engage in any "vices" yourself, you'd be getting a free ride, whilst others paid for your roads, physical and national security, administration, etc. That's a juvenile and baseless position, and it's not even actually libertarian either.  You keep saying "vice" as if that helps your argument, when it's completely subjective and dependent on personal morality. Libertarians don't believe in forcing their own moral positions onto others, which is exactly what you're doing here.  And you keep failing to register the point that the money you earned is a state-issued fiat currency - it only exists as a result of government issue and regulation.  If you don't like part of it being used to pay for services that you use, then get your employer to pay you in something that isn't a fiat currency.
« Last Edit: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:22:17 by Malphas »

Offline IPT

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« Reply #229 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:23:54 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;567932
You really can't read, can you?

Show Image
Show Image
Show Image
Show Image

So who should pay for the roads you use to drive to work?
Who should pay to maintain bridges and tunnels?

Offline sth

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« Reply #230 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:24:53 »
Quote from: projectD;567962
So who should pay for the roads you use to drive to work?
Who should pay to maintain bridges and tunnels?
CAN'T YOU READ?
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #231 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:25:43 »
It ALMOST sounds like you're saying that the fact that the money I earn is state-issued means that the state can do whatever they hell they want with it.

I disagree with that entirely.

And the decision on taxing vices has nothing to do with morality or what one person considers to be a vice or not. The government can just say "we want to tax x". Actually, it wasn't even me who used the word vice first in this thread. I've just been using it for the sake of convenience; I originally gave hard examples.

Offline Malphas

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« Reply #232 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:26:07 »
Quote from: projectD;567962
So who should pay for the roads you use to drive to work?
Who should pay to maintain bridges and tunnels?
People that smoke weed, gamble or drink alcohol should, apparently.

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #233 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:29:16 »
Quote from: Malphas;567967
People that smoke weed, gamble or drink alcohol should, apparently.

Don't forget people who get hookers!

Offline sth

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« Reply #234 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:29:23 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;567966
It ALMOST sounds like you're saying that the fact that the money I earn is state-issued means that the state can do whatever they hell they want with it.

I disagree with that entirely.

And the decision on taxing vices has nothing to do with morality or what one person considers to be a vice or not. The government can just say "we want to tax x". Actually, it wasn't even me who used the word vice first in this thread. I've just been using it for the sake of convenience; I originally gave hard examples.

Then you either have no idea how money works or you are being intentionally obtuse. Either way, I will say goodnight to you now, children.
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Offline Malphas

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« Reply #235 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:32:33 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;567966
It ALMOST sounds like you're saying that the fact that the money I earn is state-issued means that the state can do whatever they hell they want with it.

What I'm saying is there's an underlying social contract, that means government control and issue the money supply and regulate its taxation.  When you use this government currency you're involuntarily giving your consent to abide by these regulations.  Petitioning for change of the regulations is done via the usual political processes.  Saying "it's theft" just makes you sound ignorant and brattish, and has no logical basis other than the fact libertarians don't like paying tax. I do agree with more proportional and accountable taxation in general though, I'm just saying this "theft" argument people use is completely dumb.

Quote from: keyboardlover;567966
And the decision on taxing vices has nothing to do with morality or what one person considers to be a vice or not. The government can just say "we want to tax x". Actually, it wasn't even me who used the word vice first in this thread. I've just been using it for the sake of convenience; I originally gave hard examples.

You still have consistently failed to explain why when x = alcohol/tobacco/gambling it's fine, but when x = income/general sales it's not. Saying "dude, why can't you see the difference" isn't a proper justification.  If the difference was as clear as you claim, then you should have no problem with a proper justification.  The fact is, all these things - i.e. your employer paying you for your labour, general sales, sales of recreational drugs, gambling - all boil down to personal financial transactions.  If you believe it's acceptable to tax some of them, then you're saying it acceptable to tax all of them - unless you can provide a concrete and objective distinction that justifies the difference in treatment, which I suspect you can't.
« Last Edit: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:39:35 by Malphas »

Offline Malphas

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« Reply #236 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:38:16 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;567966
It ALMOST sounds like you're saying that the fact that the money I earn is state-issued means that the state can do whatever they hell they want with it.

What I'm saying is there's an underlying social contract, that means government control and issue the money supply and regulate its taxation.  When you use this government currency you're involuntarily giving your consent to abide by these regulations.  Petitioning for change of the regulations is done via the usual political processes.  Saying "it's theft" just makes you sound stupid and brattish, and has no logical basis other than the fact libertarians don't like paying tax. I do agree with more proportional and accountable taxation in general though, I'm just saying this "theft" argument people use is completely dumb.

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #237 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:39:54 »
It's money that I personally earn vs. money gained from the sale of "other things". Is that not concrete enough for you?

Offline Malphas

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« Reply #238 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:42:37 »
No, it's not.  Like I said those both just boil down to financial transactions.  Not only that but you already said previously you take some issue with general sales tax, but not with "vice" tax, which makes your argument even more invalid.

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« Reply #239 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:42:47 »
Btw Malphas, are you by any chance a lawyer? You really sound like one.

Offline IPT

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« Reply #240 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 14:49:29 »
so if roads and what not should be maintained by what you consider vice tax, you will stop using them correct?  you'll pay to pave your own roads and maintain them?
since why is it fair for you to use something you didn't pay for?

btw i consider buying too many keyboards/keycaps excessive and "wasteful"
i believe there should be a vice tax per Keyboard & keycap you owned

think of all the wasteful plastic used to mold each keyboard/keycap

Offline Malphas

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« Reply #241 on: Thu, 05 April 2012, 15:07:01 »
On a side not, keyboardlover, I probably agree with you on a lot of practicalities.  The libertarian ideal would be everyone paying for exactly what they used on a consensual basis, which is a nice idea in theory but if implemented would result in a completely unfair society, with lower income groups getting completely screwed, as well as being too bureaucratic and expensive to implement.  I think a good meeting point between that and blanket taxation would be a sort of social cost tax, similar to the "vice" tax idea, where taxes are levied on actions based on their cost of particular groups as a whole, which isn't entirely fair, but still better than everyone paying for it. e.g. A tax on the sale of alcohol, based on the cost alcohol usage has in terms of alcohol-related violence and illness, etc. rather than based on moral arguments. Similarly roads could be funded primarily by fuel taxes and tolls for example. Ultimately driving down general income tax, so it's restricted as much as possible to covering the cost of universal services only, like national security.  I also think taxation could be minimized drastically by cutting the amount of unnecessary government expenditure as a whole.

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #242 on: Fri, 06 April 2012, 12:57:09 »
We need to stop using the word "vice tax" because that's an unfair label to what I'm talking about. What society considers a vice is not relevant to what I'm proposing we tax.  We already tax alcohol and tobacco - but the government doesn't officially label them "vices". I'm just talking about legalizing various items that would curb a HUGE illegal cash flow to where we need it most as well as, in the case of drugs and prostitution, end violence fueled by these activities.

Quote from: Malphas
I also think taxation could be minimized drastically by cutting the amount of unnecessary government expenditure as a whole.


I agree!
« Last Edit: Fri, 06 April 2012, 13:43:26 by keyboardlover »

Offline Malphas

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« Reply #243 on: Fri, 06 April 2012, 14:02:59 »
Legalising those activities is really an entirely different argument from taxation though. Although I agree with it - prohibition is stupid.  The whole concept that income tax is inherently wrong somehow, and the solution is just to legalise drugs and prostitution and then tax them instead is pretty asinine and simplistic though.

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« Reply #244 on: Fri, 06 April 2012, 14:05:24 »
There's a lot of things wrong with my government.

But you have to start small if you want to change anything. That's anything but asinine.

Offline IPT

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« Reply #245 on: Fri, 06 April 2012, 15:16:00 »
ok so let me ask you, if we eliminated income tax, what would you think your tax burden should be?
only on sales tax of items you purchase?

Would you be ok with a Value Added Tax (VAT) like many of the world has?  A flat 20% or so on all goods sold?
how about a Vehicle Excise Duty (VED) on all motor vehicles you wish to drive on public roads annually??

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« Reply #246 on: Fri, 06 April 2012, 15:26:47 »
There is no rational or logic that can be used to sway John Galt.
Ron Ayn L Rand Paul belongs in a white padded room wearing Depends and a wraparound jacket. As loony as Daffy Duck but without his charm.  :)
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #247 on: Fri, 06 April 2012, 17:29:09 »
Quote from: projectD
ok so let me ask you, if we eliminated income tax, what would you think your tax burden should be?
only on sales tax of items you purchase?

I think that the tax burden on individual citizens should actually be nothing. Private/public enterprise is what should be taxed.

Quote from: projectD
Would you be ok with a Value Added Tax (VAT) like many of the world has?  A flat 20% or so on all goods sold?
how about a Vehicle Excise Duty (VED) on all motor vehicles you wish to drive on public roads annually??

Nope.

Offline Malphas

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« Reply #248 on: Fri, 06 April 2012, 18:02:32 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;569297
I think that the tax burden on individual citizens should actually be nothing. Private/public enterprise is what should be taxed.

What's your justification for this? Why do you still feel you should be entitled to the services provided by the government when you don't contribute financially towards them?

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #249 on: Sat, 07 April 2012, 07:01:26 »
Quote from: Malphas;569331
What's your justification for this? Why do you still feel you should be entitled to the services provided by the government when you don't contribute financially towards them?

In fact I feel no entitlement to the government whatsoever. Not sure why you made that assumption. I don't even use any government services personally - I just pay for them. And most of them are mismanaged and offer little-no value.

In short, I believe that the government should be made small enough to be effective.
« Last Edit: Sat, 07 April 2012, 07:25:27 by keyboardlover »