« previous next »
Pages:  [1]     Go Down

Author Topic: mx brown user wonders about mx red  (Read 6289 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline zakazak

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 57
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« on: Sun, 17 June 2012, 16:14:51 »
So I used the mx brown switches (Filco) for ~ 1 year now. I really like them and wonder if MX red switches would be any better for me.

I bottom out a lot (actually all I do is bottoming out) which makes the keyboard a bit too noise when using vent/ts3. I play a lot of fps games (also on a very high lvl.. nationscup & similiar) but also type a lot as I have to do a lot of things for work at home.

So I wonder if MX-Red switches would be more comfortable/better for me as I am a "bottom out only" guy ?

Thanks :)
Logged

Offline Djuzuh

  • Posts: 1127
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 17 June 2012, 16:16:17 »
you can go O-rings to soften the bottoming out and to make less noise.

Also, your bottoming out problem will be worse on reds.
Logged

Offline zakazak

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 57
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 17 June 2012, 16:22:14 »
I dont see my bottoming out as a problem. It's jsut my way of typing ?

What do u mean with O-rings ?

@edit: ah you mean putting o-rings inside the keys so I cant press them that much down anymore? I can use random o-rings that fit?
Logged

Offline The_Beast

  • * Maker
  • Posts: 3964
  • Location: Wisconsin
  • I like wood ಠ_๏
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 17 June 2012, 16:27:54 »
I have browns and reds, they are both a very similar. The only real difference is the bump and a slight noise with browns, but I doubt that would have any effect on your game play.
Logged
Vendor Status: Sadly, not taking any orders/pre-orders at this time
Vendor Quick Links: | Vendor Forum | Hardwood Wrist Rests | Hardwood 60% Cases | Customer Gallery | Giveaway |

Offline zakazak

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 57
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 17 June 2012, 16:29:09 »
And what about the difference when typing ?
Logged

Offline Chicken Chaser

  • Posts: 81
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 17 June 2012, 16:29:14 »
The most popular choice for o-ring is the red 40a. Inner diameter 3/16", outer diameter 5/16". Look up some of the o-ring threads if you want to learn more. You can go to wasdkeyboards.com and buy a set for about $20 shipped. Cheaper alternatives is to get dental bands for braces
Logged
Leopold TKL Blues || Leopold TKL Reds || Filco TKL Ninja Browns

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8852
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 17 June 2012, 16:33:22 »
Yep, reds are very similar to browns. You would probably like them better since you bottom out all the time. Try the o-rings from WASDkeyboards.com. I would recommend the 40A hardness ones. It will soften the impact of the keys as you bottom out.
Logged
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam
"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline rodya

  • Posts: 115
  • Location: Southern California
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 17 June 2012, 16:40:50 »
Quote from: zakazak;615702
I dont see my bottoming out as a problem. It's jsut my way of typing ?


I don't think he's saying himself it's a problem; I think he's just referencing your situation where you seem to imply it may be a problem.  "a bit too noise... better for me as I am a 'bottom out only' guy".  But yeah, the reds are easier to bottom out on, so your noise issue won't be resolved.  The only switches that would lessen bottoming out for you would be clears or blacks, but most people don't like these switches.  Ergo clears are another option (clear stems, blue/red/brown springs).  Or o-rings seems like a good idea for you.
« Last Edit: Sun, 17 June 2012, 16:42:54 by rodya »
Logged

Offline Djuzuh

  • Posts: 1127
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 17 June 2012, 16:48:30 »
Quote from: zakazak;615702
I dont see my bottoming out as a problem. It's jsut my way of typing ?

What do u mean with O-rings ?

@edit: ah you mean putting o-rings inside the keys so I cant press them that much down anymore? I can use random o-rings that fit?

It's even easier to bottom out on reds, since they are more light, and aren't tactile. So you'll hurt your joints more, and do more noise.

This is or is not a problem. It's just that you will bottom out more. So it definitively isn't a solution against bottoming out.
Logged

Offline mbc

  • Posts: 469
  • Location: Germany
  • -delete-
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 17 June 2012, 17:52:42 »
Quote from: Djuzuh;615720
It's even easier to bottom out on reds, since they are more light, and aren't tactile. So you'll hurt your joints more, and do more noise.

This is or is not a problem. It's just that you will bottom out more. So it definitively isn't a solution against bottoming out.
Haha.. I experienced the opposite.
The force you require to overcome the bump leads me to bottom out more since the rest of the way requires almost no additional force. (That's how it feels at last)
Logged

Offline TexasFlood

  • Posts: 1084
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 17 June 2012, 18:43:42 »
I find the blue click helps more, for me, to prevent bottoming out than the brown bump. I don't see how bottoming out can be worse with reds if already bottoming out all the time. And yes would agree o-rings are a good idea both to limit noise and cushion your finger joints. Seems some folks like reds and some hate them, not sure how to predict that. I found them to feel very different and odd but got used to them and liking them now. I put dental bands on mine, might switch to o-rings in future after evaluating them, not sure. But the dental bands did quiet down the clack a bit.
Logged

Offline Chris_F

  • Posts: 37
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 17 June 2012, 18:54:55 »
I've never tried them personally, but MX clears are supposed to be more tactile than browns and harder to bottom out.
Logged
Q: The best keyboards ever made are from the early '80s and have buckling springs.
A: True

Offline zakazak

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 57
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 18 June 2012, 16:19:05 »
Well, as I bottom out a lot (and I dont think this will ever change): Would you guys recommend me mx-red + o-rings (for easier key pressing, better typing/gaming over my mx-brown) ?

Also: Does the strength of the r-ring (so actually how "soft" it is) matter? Cause I have random ones here at home (right diameter and I think the height is fine as well). And another question:

As I have a otaku version, whats the best way to disassemble all keys , clean them and correctly put the keyboard together again ? Last time it was pain in the ass since a lot of keys have different sizes.

Thanks
Logged

Offline Djuzuh

  • Posts: 1127
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 18 June 2012, 16:24:39 »
Quote from: zakazak;616451
Well, as I bottom out a lot (and I dont think this will ever change): Would you guys recommend me mx-red + o-rings (for easier key pressing, better typing/gaming over my mx-brown) ?

Also: Does the strength of the r-ring (so actually how "soft" it is) matter? Cause I have random ones here at home (right diameter and I think the height is fine as well). And another question:

As I have a otaku version, whats the best way to disassemble all keys , clean them and correctly put the keyboard together again ? Last time it was pain in the ass since a lot of keys have different sizes.

Thanks

We can't recommand you anything. Switchs has always been about personal preference :P.

Yes the strength matters. You really want something soft. Most O-rings are way too hard for you to feel something. Try to join the O-ring try GB (you get 5 orings of each sort to make your choice). The GB should happen soon, the IC thread is currently in the group buy section.

keep each different profile separated from the rest?
Logged

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8852
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 18 June 2012, 16:31:06 »
Yes. just keep all the keys from Row 1 in one bag, from Row 2 in another bag, etc.

I think you would like MX reds, but you might not feel that much of a difference. If you ever decide to try and change how you type, i.e. not bottoming out, you will probably find the browns helpful, though. I thought I would always bottom out, but I'm getting better at not doing it now.

I would go with 40A hardness O-rings. You can try 50A, but they won't dampen the sound as much. Make sure I.D. is 3/16". O.D. should be no larger than 5/16".

Hope this helps.
Logged
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam
"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline zakazak

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 57
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 18 June 2012, 16:44:58 »
So the key size is the same per row? Okay thanks, that will help a lot then.

Well I just thought that the lighter pressing force with the mx-red would make a huge difference (or atleast feel a lot easier to type with). + the shorter travel time due to the o-rings might increase writing speed again.
Logged

Offline alaricljs

  • I be WOT'ing all day...
  • ** Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 3715
  • Location: NE US
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 18 June 2012, 16:47:58 »
reds are marginally lighter, they use the same spring as browns.  The difference is in the tactile bump providing resistance in the browns.
Logged
Filco w/ Imsto thick PBT
Ducky 1087XM PCB+Plate, w/ Matias "Quiet Click" spring-swapped w/ XM Greens

Offline zakazak

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 57
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 18 June 2012, 16:50:34 »
And the bump will be less noticeable due to the o-rings anyway?

Well if it is just about the bump I would rather stay with my current mx-brown keyboard I guess.
Logged

Offline Djuzuh

  • Posts: 1127
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 18 June 2012, 16:54:33 »
no, the bump is at ~2mm. The Oring only changes something at 3~3.5 mm.

The reds however have no bump at all. You don't « feel » where the key is typed.
Logged

Offline zakazak

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 57
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 18 June 2012, 16:57:20 »
Well.. the key is typed when the button is bottomed out? :P So I wouldn't need the bump anyway?

And another question: 0.4mm reduction or 0.2mm ?
Logged

Offline Djuzuh

  • Posts: 1127
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 18 June 2012, 16:59:00 »
no, the key is typed when the button is half way on cherry MX switchs (2/4).

That's why you don't need to bottom out, as you don't need to push the key all the way in.

4 mm is the full course. 2 mm is halfway, where the key registers. an O-ring is somewhere between 0.5 mm or 1 mm, don't remember.
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 June 2012, 17:10:09 by Djuzuh »
Logged

Offline rknize

  • * Administrator
  • Posts: 1731
  • Location: Chicago
    • metaruss
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 18 June 2012, 17:01:04 »
I started out with browns myself.  If you bottom out all the time like me, you won't have any difficulty typing on reds.  They feel a little weird at first, but they work just fine.  It's kind of fun to change things up now and then.  I prefer ergo-clears myself, which are nice and snappy with lots of travel.

When using reds with o-rings, the reduced travel coupled with the slight bounce at the bottom gives them an almost tactile feel.  They are quiet, too.  Browns with o-ring almost feel like scissor switches to me.  As others have said, if you want to avoid bottoming out, you'll want a stiffer spring.
Logged
Russ

Offline zakazak

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 57
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 18 June 2012, 17:07:29 »
Okay so the thing is.. I dont know if I want to stop :P I can't imagine writing without bottoming out.

So I thought it wouldn't matter if bump-feedback or not. Key goes completely down anyway. + The short the key travel (o-ring) the better for "bottoming out" again as I am used to press the key the whole way down but with the o-ring only have to press e.g. half the way.

Never used scissor switches, no idea what they are :S
Logged

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8852
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 18 June 2012, 17:07:56 »
Quote from: zakazak;616487
Well.. the key is typed when the button is bottomed out? :P So I wouldn't need the bump anyway?

And another question: 0.4mm reduction or 0.2mm ?

Unfortunately, I cannot tell you from experience which to get. as the only O-rings I could find at the time I bought mine were the 0.2mm reduction ones. I think I would like the reduced travel of the 0.4mm ones, though.
Logged
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam
"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline rknize

  • * Administrator
  • Posts: 1731
  • Location: Chicago
    • metaruss
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 18 June 2012, 17:11:13 »
Quote from: zakazak;616497
Never used scissor switches, no idea what they are :S

Never used a laptop?
Logged
Russ

Offline zakazak

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 57
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 18 June 2012, 17:14:33 »
only using a laptop tbh. This is my review if interested:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/sager-clevo-reviews-owners-lounges/620694-malibal-satori-p170hm-120hz-3d-matte-i7-2760qm-3-5ghz-8gb-ram-gtx-560m-intel-510-ssd.html

I see so that is how mx-brown switches will feel with o-rings. Well I like that I think :)

Too bad I have no mx-reds to compare them but from what I read the red's are easier to bottom out (since they don't have the resistance from the bump) which in my case makes writing more comfortable as I always bottom out (I think).
Logged

Offline rknize

  • * Administrator
  • Posts: 1731
  • Location: Chicago
    • metaruss
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 18 June 2012, 17:20:48 »
That is just IMO, of course.  :)  I didn't care for the reduced travel on my Rosewill (browns), but I am a Model M guy.  I still have them on my WASD with reds, because they feel nice enough for typing and are still good for gaming.  O-rings are a cheap trick to try.  I will probably try some of the thinner ones from WASD at some point.
Logged
Russ

Offline IvanIvanovich

  • Mr. Silk Underwear
  • Posts: 8199
  • Location: USA
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 18 June 2012, 18:05:28 »
If I were you I would look into blacks or clears instead. A heavier switch may suit you better.
Logged

Offline rowdy

  • HHKB Hapster
  • * Erudite Elder
  • Posts: 21175
  • Location: melbourne.vic.au
  • Missed another sale.
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 19 June 2012, 05:25:55 »
Quote from: Djuzuh;616456
We can't recommand you anything. Switchs has always been about personal preference :P.


This is where the problem lies for many, me included, where it is not possible to try all of the switch types (and backlighting, if applicable) before purchase, and thus rely on the testimonials of others in making a choice.
Logged
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline Djuzuh

  • Posts: 1127
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 19 June 2012, 05:30:01 »
There are a few switch tryers on this forum and on deskthority.
Logged

Offline rowdy

  • HHKB Hapster
  • * Erudite Elder
  • Posts: 21175
  • Location: melbourne.vic.au
  • Missed another sale.
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 19 June 2012, 05:45:06 »
In the US and Europe, not Australia :(
Logged
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline Djuzuh

  • Posts: 1127
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 19 June 2012, 05:46:49 »
They are a few worldwide rounds I believe.

But OUCH shipping :s.
Logged

Offline rowdy

  • HHKB Hapster
  • * Erudite Elder
  • Posts: 21175
  • Location: melbourne.vic.au
  • Missed another sale.
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 19 June 2012, 05:51:22 »
Yes indeed!

Plus for the sort of shipping costs involved, I would want to try a full keyboard for at least a week, not a keypad for a few days.

A good idea though :)
Logged
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline zakazak

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 57
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 19 June 2012, 14:33:30 »
Anybody knows a european reseller for the "40A-R (0.4mm Reduction)" o-rings ?

Thanks
Logged

Offline Djuzuh

  • Posts: 1127
mx brown user wonders about mx red
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 19 June 2012, 14:34:58 »
Quote from: zakazak;617151
Anybody knows a european reseller for the "40A-R (0.4mm Reduction)" o-rings ?

Thanks

Shipping from WASD is pretty cheap for Orings. It's something like 4$.
Logged
Pages:  [1]     Go Up
« previous next »