Shades of Red

[demik]

i have to ask.

are you making money out of this red mod sale? or is all the money going to SP/Melissa?

[Ragnorock]

Read the above. I/we don't know. I have no idea how I'm going to manage to sell nearly 200 red mod kits seeing as how pretty much everyone who wanted one has already bought one or more. Yeah the price decrease/refund is going to cause more people to get in on it, but I don't have a crystal ball. I am not trying to, if that's what you're asking. If I lower the selling price much lower than $20, its simply too much for me to refund. Make sense?

[ekw808]

Sounds like it depends on how fast the red mods sell, seems if they sell under a month then it goes to SP and anything over that he keeps?

[demik]

what im asking is.

those 200 extra sets.

how much of that money is SP getting and how much of that money is staying in your pocket.

80/20? 60/40? 100 to sp?

it's great that you want to help SP and all, but lets not kid ourselves. you don't do anything for free and you've said so yourself.

[fartq]

rag, melissa almost certainly made you an offer to sell you the error keys at a discounted rate. i am asking that you tell us exactly what that offer was otherwise i will not be contributing anything to this buy.

i will, however tell mel that i am happy to buy sets directly from her if she requests that you send the error sets back.

[Ragnorock]

Its probably going to be something like 80/20. Again it depends on how many I sell, I haven't heard how much SP needs, so I can't tell you because the math problem is incomplete. I'll be sure to tell you right away to make sure it's okay, promise.


@ Mkawa. That's not how the conversation went. I suggested exactly what I've stated and the details aren't ironed out yet. Don't jump down my throat and speak for me please.


What you guys don't seem to understand is that Melissa has not told me how much she wants for the sets.

[demik]

now, that 80% is for SP right? lets all be clear here since you decided to leave the part out where you'll be making money off these "lets help SP" sales.

shame, i wanted to help out SP because Melissa seems to be a great person. But not if you're going to take a cut.

[Ragnorock]

Uhh yeah, 80% to SP. Because of course I'm sure you realize that it takes a lot of work to take all of the wrong keys out of 200 keysets and put all of the right keys in right? I find it hilarious how you guys think I'm just sitting over here doing nothing but rake in cash. That will take me ages to do, and not to mention packing up and selling all of the extras with most/all of the benefit going to SP. Keep vilifying me if you want, and I'll just stop doing nice things for other people?


Like seriously wtf guys. Every chance you get I have guys jumping all over me like I'm trying to steal everyone's money. If that was the case there wouldn't be over 30,000 keycaps sitting in my living room right now.

[sth]

Uhh yeah, 80% to SP. Because of course I'm sure you realize that it takes a lot of work to take all of the wrong keys out of 200 keysets and put all of the right keys in right? I find it hilarious how you guys think I'm just sitting over here doing nothing but rake in cash. That will take me ages to do, and not to mention packing up and selling all of the extras with most/all of the benefit going to SP. Keep vilifying me if you want, and I'll just stop doing nice things for other people?

Dude come on. People expect you to be transparent when they give you their money... nobody is vilifying you or jumping down your throat, they just want clarification.

And as far as being clear goes, you're NOT directly doing something nice for other people. You are running profitable group buys that people happen to appreciate. I don't mean to piss you off or give you a reason not to run group buys, but you sure as hell need to be comfortable stating that you make profits from these (which I believe you are) and clearly/concisely answering peoples' questions about distribution of funds (which you don't seem to be doing without a lot of prodding), or they will stop buying your services.

[Ragnorock]

I am being as clear as I possibly can though, and that's not enough. Like I get you want answers today, but guess what, Melissa went home over 2 hours ago, and I won't find out any more until tomorrow most likely. Once I figure out how much their cost is, then we can go from there.

[demik]

Uhh yeah, 80% to SP. Because of course I'm sure you realize that it takes a lot of work to take all of the wrong keys out of 200 keysets and put all of the right keys in right? I find it hilarious how you guys think I'm just sitting over here doing nothing but rake in cash. That will take me ages to do, and not to mention packing up and selling all of the extras with most/all of the benefit going to SP. Keep vilifying me if you want, and I'll just stop doing nice things for other people?

Dude come on. People expect you to be transparent when they give you their money... nobody is vilifying you or jumping down your throat, they just want clarification.

And as far as being clear goes, you're NOT directly doing something nice for other people. You are running profitable group buys that people happen to appreciate. I don't mean to piss you off or give you a reason not to run group buys, but you sure as hell need to be comfortable stating that you make profits from these (which I believe you are) and clearly/concisely answering peoples' questions about distribution of funds (which you don't seem to be doing without a lot of prodding), or they will stop buying your services.

seriously.

you're not doing "nice things for people." you're charging people for your service. we appreciate that you run these group buys. but don't act like you're doing this for free or doing us a favor.

you brought up the idea of helping out SP, but decided to not mention helping yourself out also. THAT I have a problem with.

[sth]

Oh and I need to unpack and shower still, been going non-stop for the last few days trying to get here to get this done and... well now most of the urgency is gone. *sigh of relief/dejection* (does that even exist?)

YES, please sit down and relax, have a cup of coffee sit back and catch up with what's happening in the world (other than this Group Buy).

I just realized how horrible it would be to actually run a Group Buy here.  It's all the worse possible nightmares that could come true, that's why I never get angry with these poor guys trying to execute one.

If a Group Buy actually goes through without any difficulties, you can chalk that down as a minor miracle.  Ragnorock has to just take it easy and keep his focus on what's important.......... keeping 'sane' throughout this process.

Nobody that has experience with SP is upset about the errors.

you brought up the idea of helping out SP, but decided to not mention helping yourself out also. THAT I have a problem with.

THIS is what people are upset about.

[sth]

  It doesn't bother me if Ragnorock makes a profit

That is not really the angle of the issue we're discussing.

[Ragnorock]

I really hope not enough of these Red mods sell and I do end up doing everything for free so you can change your tune and get off my back. You obviously don't understand what I explained as to how it would work. I sell leftover sets. Once I have enough money, I issue REFUNDS, making it so everyone pays less money. Following that, I keep selling keys until SP gets its costs covered, if that happens at all. If it doesn't, that's their loss they have to eat on the mistake. Once their loss is absorbed, then I can start making money off of it, if at all. We don't know yet because I don't know how much this mistake cost SP. The odds of me making money here are actually really low, which you clearly don't understand. If you can think of a better plan, I'm all ears. If you want me to just send the keys back to Melissa, and have Melissa throw them up on SP for $27 a set, I'll do that. But we certainly can't have them selling at a lower price than everyone paid in the group buy, or else everyone in the group buy is going to be angry and crying for a refund. This way, everyone pays less for a set, and it doesn't take SP as long to recoup their loss as it would for them to try and sell red mod kits at a non discounted price. Do you follow my line of thinking yet?

[Elrick]

you're not doing "nice things for people." you're charging people for your service. we appreciate that you run these group buys. but don't act like you're doing this for free or doing us a favor.

you brought up the idea of helping out SP, but decided to not mention helping yourself out also. THAT I have a problem with.

Hey, this is starting to look like a some sort of gang fight with everyone drawing out knives and chains.......what the HELL.

This is just the beginning.  Remember nothing is final yet you still have a way of negotiating to get what you want, but making accusations just pushes everyone into their corners ready for a knock down blood fight.

No one wins........ Ragnorock got screwed by SP's ineptitude, nothing wrong there because most companies **** up in one way or another.  You need to now work out a way of tackling it, effectively.

C'mon guys.......don't get all nasty about this.  Just calm down.......... take it easy and start again.  Remember we are suppose to be rational beings not vicious, vindictive people.

[Ragnorock]

you brought up the idea of helping out SP, but decided to not mention helping yourself out also. THAT I have a problem with.

This is where you say: "But wait Dave, hold on a minute!" Because you're thinking if I have almost 200 sets and I'm selling them at $20 a pop, isn't that near $3000 (less refunds) that goes into my pocket? No. I will be paying most of that to SP in order to help them absorb the loss from having to remake that many keys. That way SP stays in business and Melissa doesn't get fired. Also I highly doubt I will be able to unload 200 extra red mod kits in a reasonable time frame, if at all. SP knows they screwed up, and I'm doing them a big favor by doing this, (instead of just sending them back so they can get a couple hundred in materials costs back,) so as much as I can get them back I'm sure they'll be happy with. That also means more people get cool custom keycaps. That's the best situation I can think of, if anyone has any thoughts or ideas how I can do better, I'm all ears. Unfortunately I can't just give everyone a free mod kit, as much fun as that would be.

Explain to me how I did not mention "helping myself out," please. PLEASE.

[1391401]

Can't we all just get along?  The mentality that I take with these GBs is "do i want these pieces of plastic for the price the GB owner is offering them for".  If no I leave the thread, if yes I buy... beyond that I don't care where money is going.

[demik]

that was a hell of a lot more detailed than your first update.

No one wins........ Ragnorock got screwed by SP's ineptitude, nothing wrong there because most companies **** up in one way or another.  You need to now work out a way of tackling it, effectively.

how did he get screwed again? SP is fixing their mistake out of their own pocket. rag isn't paying anything more than what was already paid to SP.

[sth]

C'mon guys.......don't get all nasty about this.  Just calm down.......... take it easy and start again.  Remember we are suppose to be rational beings not vicious, vindictive people.

I don't think anybody is being nasty or uncalm. People are blowing the wrong parts of the issue out of proportion and ignoring what demik and I have been saying -- there is a demand for clarity in the distribution of funds and to whom the money from these 'extra' sets will be going to.

I understand taking care of the supplier, but I would also really like to know base costs for the keys that were made in error. SP should NOT receive retail/marked up compensation, just materials + molds because otherwise they'd be profiting off of their mistakes. But this is not my deal to make.

[Ragnorock]

Uhh, yeah I am. I'm paying the cost of fixing it so they don't lose money by making it right, that's where the money I'll be collecting from the red mod set sales goes. (In light of STP's post, yes, that's exactly what I'm doing, I'm paying what their cost, sans markup, is on fixing it, or at least that's what I think I'm doing from my convo with Melissa, as I said, it was rather frantic.)

that was a hell of a lot more detailed than your first update.

Jesus man, I'm running on 3 hours of sleep, what more do you want from me? A dissertation? It makes perfect sense to me, I'm sorry you didn't get it.

[demik]

because you want to, no? or did Melissa tell you that the only way you are getting the white mods is if you pay for it again?

I hope SP learns from this. It's ridiculous that stuff goes "missing" on their part.

[sth]

Uhh, yeah I am. I'm paying the cost of fixing it so they don't lose money by making it right, that's where the money I'll be collecting from the red mod set sales goes.

that was a hell of a lot more detailed than your first update.

Jesus man, I'm running on 3 hours of sleep, what more do you want from me? A dissertation? It makes perfect sense to me, I'm sorry you didn't get it.

Please go to bed and stop responding to posts right now, we can tell you're frustrated and need sleep

[Ragnorock]

The refund is that you don't get angry when I sell the accident sets for less than you paid during the group buy, in order to sell them quickly. Its the same principle with the unpaid invoices, I can't let someone pay a different price for a set than another person just because they bought it at ____ point in time. That's called price discrimination and I don't practice it.

[Ragnorock]

because you want to, no? or did Melissa tell you that the only way you are getting the white mods is if you pay for it again?

I hope SP learns from this. It's ridiculous that stuff goes "missing" on their part.

Yes I want to make it so their huge mistake is as financially small as possible, both for the GH - SP relationship and for Melissa's job security. No she didn't say that's the only way I'm getting the keys. I suggested this plan so they don't just eat the loss. Generally when someone keeps making multi thousand dollar mistakes it sortof looks bad. I don't even know what to do about the portal sets, it looks like they used the same printing setup for the first 13 keys, so everything that was a part of the original Portal set is exactly the same as it was the first time- no added colors. So what do I do now? Tell her to reprint me 110 portal sets (looking at the invoice that cost us $2560, so after their markup that's probably an $1800 mistake too.)

[demik]

oh SP.. when will you learn.

like i said, i'm all for helping SP out and keeping Melissa at her job. But for ****'s sake, they need to get their **** together.

[sth]

because you want to, no? or did Melissa tell you that the only way you are getting the white mods is if you pay for it again?

I hope SP learns from this. It's ridiculous that stuff goes "missing" on their part.

Yes I want to make it so their huge mistake is as financially small as possible, both for the GH - SP relationship and for Melissa's job security. No she didn't say that's the only way I'm getting the keys. I suggested this plan so they don't just eat the loss. Generally when someone keeps making multi thousand dollar mistakes it sortof looks bad. I don't even know what to do about the portal sets, it looks like they used the same printing setup for the first 13 keys, so everything that was a part of the original Portal set is exactly the same as it was the first time- no added colors. So what do I do now? Tell her to reprint me 110 portal sets (looking at the invoice that cost us $2560, so after their markup that's probably an $1800 mistake too.)

Melissa should not be fired over our relatively small group buys, but come on! They ****ed up both of your current group buys and you'd rather they not deal with the consequences on their own dime? Noble, but you nor the rest of the community don't owe them anything extra. That's what the money you paid for the intended product is for...

[sth]

and something to think about: rag could have been a douchbag and not said anything at all to us and just gone to another forum to sell these mod sets

lol like where? is there another SECRET keycap marketplace apart from the western worlds' largest two kbd forums (GH and DT)?

[demik]

i don't know why you guys are being so silly.
ragnorock is not obligated to give back any money to SP since it was their mistake to begin with...
technically ~85 red mod sets are rags and he can do whatever he pleases with them.
he is choosing to sell them for $20 and is being nice and is offering to donate some of the proceeds to SP since he feels bad.

lets THANK rag for being a nice person and donating any to SP at all...
i don't recall any of previous GB errors by SP getting bailed out. (this may not be entirely true but PUBLICLY it is)

now lets understand that the error made by SP this particular time is more harmful than the previous errors but this is probably also the SAME REASON that rag is even offering to donate proceeds in the first place...

and something to think about: rag could have been a douchbag and not said anything at all to us and just gone to another forum to sell these mod sets

sp was most likely going to offer those 85 sets at a discounted price. like they did with the riddlers gbs. there is nothing wrong with the sets, it just wasnt what people ordered. so i dont know what the hell you're talking about.

[Acanthophis]

OCN...

[sth]

Yeah I'm sure there are no members of GH that are also on OCN in any meaningful way... coughreapercough

[Ragnorock]

W

because you want to, no? or did Melissa tell you that the only way you are getting the white mods is if you pay for it again?

I hope SP learns from this. It's ridiculous that stuff goes "missing" on their part.

Yes I want to make it so their huge mistake is as financially small as possible, both for the GH - SP relationship and for Melissa's job security. No she didn't say that's the only way I'm getting the keys. I suggested this plan so they don't just eat the loss. Generally when someone keeps making multi thousand dollar mistakes it sortof looks bad. I don't even know what to do about the portal sets, it looks like they used the same printing setup for the first 13 keys, so everything that was a part of the original Portal set is exactly the same as it was the first time- no added colors. So what do I do now? Tell her to reprint me 110 portal sets (looking at the invoice that cost us $2560, so after their markup that's probably an $1800 mistake too.)

Melissa should not be fired over our relatively small group buys, but come on! They ****ed up both of your current group buys and you'd rather they not deal with the consequences on their own dime? Noble, but you nor the rest of the community don't owe them anything extra. That's what the money you paid for the intended product is for...

Yeah, its like, okay I've got all the keys for the portal gb. Nothing's missing, defective or damaged beyond use as far as I can tell. They're perfect except some of them are missing the added color changes I did, (that's obviously production's fault for going "Oh hey, even though they paid $80 for new legends, most of them look the same, so we'll just use the printing paper from the last round and save ourselves some money by only having to print only the 3 new keys.)

Is that sort of mistake worth making SP eat an $1,800 loss over? Nah not really, the keys still look fantastic, and I'm pretty sure just about everyone is going to be super happy with them. That said though, we are victim to their incompetencies yet again, and who knows when enough will be enough. I'll point it out to her and say something like "hey, this is messed up too, we didn't get what we paid for, but its not that big of a deal and I know you've got a much bigger issue you're dealing with, just wanted you to know that we noticed it." That goodwill is extremely valuable, much more than a lot of people understand. A simple way to put it is "Yes, the customer is always right, but the reasonable customer is much more likely to be welcomed back in the future."

I could go on and tell a few stories about this from my own experience but that'd be the sleep deprivation making me ramble on. You know how I can do that sometimes. (Order thread OPs LOL)

[sth]

Is that sort of mistake worth making SP eat an $1,800 loss over? Nah not really, the keys still look fantastic, and I'm pretty sure just about everyone is going to be super happy with them. That said though, we are victim to their incompetencies yet again, and who knows when enough will be enough. I'll point it out to her and say something like "hey, this is messed up too, we didn't get what we paid for, but its not that big of a deal and I know you've got a much bigger issue you're dealing with, just wanted you to know that we noticed it." That goodwill is extremely valuable, much more than a lot of people understand. A simple way to put it is "Yes, the customer is always right, but the reasonable customer is much more likely to be welcomed back in the future."

I agree with your position on being a decent customer but group buys, on the whole, are probably at least a full percentage of their business when you include korean buys. They can afford to make mistakes when dealing with relatively small individual orders but, as a member of the larger group of GB operators, you are allowing them to abuse their monopoly. This is why their QC has gotten not better, but worse. I'm also curious to find out how much of that $1800 is profit to SP above and beyond operating costs.

[demik]

i don't know why you guys are being so silly.
ragnorock is not obligated to give back any money to SP since it was their mistake to begin with...
technically ~85 red mod sets are rags and he can do whatever he pleases with them.
he is choosing to sell them for $20 and is being nice and is offering to donate some of the proceeds to SP since he feels bad.

lets THANK rag for being a nice person and donating any to SP at all...
i don't recall any of previous GB errors by SP getting bailed out. (this may not be entirely true but PUBLICLY it is)

now lets understand that the error made by SP this particular time is more harmful than the previous errors but this is probably also the SAME REASON that rag is even offering to donate proceeds in the first place...

and something to think about: rag could have been a douchbag and not said anything at all to us and just gone to another forum to sell these mod sets

sp was most likely going to offer those 85 sets at a discounted price. like they did with the riddlers gbs. there is nothing wrong with the sets, it just wasnt what people ordered. so i dont know what the hell you're talking about.

how stupid are you? the 85 sets are not SP's anymore.
they are rags now so i really don't know what the hell YOU'RE talking about...

You must be ****ing retarded.

They are not rag's, because that is NOT what rag ordered. SP is sending rag his missing keys. What is there not to get?

Same thing happened with the Riddler's key GB. SP did the wrong row, fixed the problem and asked tsangan if he wanted to buy those keys at a discounted price.

Rag is offering to help SP sell these, because there seems to be interest in them anyway. If he would have said no, they would have taken it back. 85 perfectly fine sets.

[mkawa]

ok look, SP isn't going to go out of business, melissa isn't going to get fired, and i don't care who loses what money. again, not speaking as an official representative of geekhack, but personally you're not going to get money out of me by trying to pull on my heartstrings or portraying this as a means of supporting the community in any way. legally, you have two choices with the defective merchandise which you are in possession of. note of course that you do not own this defective merchandise, as you presold it to other people. ok, choices:

1) return the defective merchandise en masse to the manufacturer, make them fix their mistake and provide the buyers you represent with non-defective merchandise

2) accept the defective merchandise, implicitly or explicitly accepting the merchandise rendered as making you and the buyers you represent whole; send the merchandise to the buyers who paid for it and currently own it, let them grumble.

any options that deviate from the first two are probably legally some form of theft and the very least clearly exploitative of your position as a proxy buyer. i will personally continue to choose not to participate in this transaction, and i personally encourage others not to as well.

[sth]

ok look, SP isn't going to go out of business, melissa isn't going to get fired, and i don't care who loses what money. again, not speaking as an official representative of geekhack, but personally you're not going to get money out of me by trying to pull on my heartstrings or portraying this as a means of supporting the community in any way. legally, you have two choices with the defective merchandise which you are in possession of. note of course that you do not own this defective merchandise, as you presold it to other people. ok, choices:

1) return the defective merchandise en masse to the manufacturer, make them fix their mistake and provide the buyers you represent with non-defective merchandise

2) accept the defective merchandise, implicitly or explicitly accepting the merchandise rendered as making you and the buyers you represent whole; send the merchandise to the buyers who paid for it and currently own it, let them grumble.

any options that deviate from the first two are probably legally some form of theft and the very least clearly exploitative of your position as a proxy buyer. i will personally continue to choose not to participate in this transaction, and i personally encourage others not to as well.

[Ragnorock]

ok look, SP isn't going to go out of business, melissa isn't going to get fired, and i don't care who loses what money. again, not speaking as an official representative of geekhack, but personally you're not going to get money out of me by trying to pull on my heartstrings or portraying this as a means of supporting the community in any way. legally, you have two choices with the defective merchandise which you are in possession of. note of course that you do not own this defective merchandise, as you presold it to other people. ok, choices:

1) return the defective merchandise en masse to the manufacturer, make them fix their mistake and provide the buyers you represent with non-defective merchandise

2) accept the defective merchandise, implicitly or explicitly accepting the merchandise rendered as making you and the buyers you represent whole; send the merchandise to the buyers who paid for it and currently own it, let them grumble.

any options that deviate from the first two are probably legally some form of theft and the very least clearly exploitative of your position as a proxy buyer. i will personally continue to choose not to participate in this transaction, and i personally encourage others not to as well.

Okay well I'm not sure everyone else agrees with that, but if that's what the community wants me to do, I'll return them to SP, and then potentially buy them later or whatever. I recognized from the start that I am not entitled to free red mods to do with what I please, and have at no point made any indication that I feel otherwise. I am simply attempting the most logical path I have been able to come up with. We do it your way, and everyone pays more for the red mods, I don't have to deal with doing refunds or selling a couple hundred leftovers, and SP loses out on more money than they would my way. Hell, that sure sounds like a good deal for me, less work and I only bought 1 red mod set for myself, and I could care less about the $7 difference. Your move guys.

[sth]

ok look, SP isn't going to go out of business, melissa isn't going to get fired, and i don't care who loses what money. again, not speaking as an official representative of geekhack, but personally you're not going to get money out of me by trying to pull on my heartstrings or portraying this as a means of supporting the community in any way. legally, you have two choices with the defective merchandise which you are in possession of. note of course that you do not own this defective merchandise, as you presold it to other people. ok, choices:

1) return the defective merchandise en masse to the manufacturer, make them fix their mistake and provide the buyers you represent with non-defective merchandise

2) accept the defective merchandise, implicitly or explicitly accepting the merchandise rendered as making you and the buyers you represent whole; send the merchandise to the buyers who paid for it and currently own it, let them grumble.

any options that deviate from the first two are probably legally some form of theft and the very least clearly exploitative of your position as a proxy buyer. i will personally continue to choose not to participate in this transaction, and i personally encourage others not to as well.

Okay well I'm not sure everyone else agrees with that, but if that's what the community wants me to do, I'll return them to SP, and then potentially buy them or whatever. I recognized from the start that I am not entitled to free red mods to do with what I please, and have at no point made any indication that I feel otherwise. I am simply attempting the most logical path I have been able to come up with. We do it your way, and everyone pays more for the red mods, I don't have to deal with doing refunds or selling a couple hundred leftovers, and SP loses out on more money than they would my way. Hell, that sure sounds like a good deal for me, less work and I only bought 1 red mod set for myself, and I could care less about the $7 difference. Your move guys.

It's not OUR move, it's YOUR move.  You just need to be prepared to deal with the consequences of your decision.

[MMB]

notice how her boob slightly jiggles

[Ragnorock]

No... I'm asking you guys to tell me what the hell to do. I figured everyone would be all like "Yay Rag, thank you so much, you rock" and obviously that isn't the case. I want everyone to be happy, that's all I'm trying to accomplish here. So tell me what you're happiest with, or suggest something you like better.

[Acanthophis]

I'm still staring at her arm touching her boob...and again...and again...


Rag, either way you do it, I don't care much as long as I will recieve my keycaps. Now or later doesn't matter. Sort things out as simple as you can.
People will be happy with their keycaps on their boards.

[whiskerBox]

1) return the defective merchandise en masse to the manufacturer, make them fix their mistake and provide the buyers you represent with non-defective merchandise

2) accept the defective merchandise, implicitly or explicitly accepting the merchandise rendered as making you and the buyers you represent whole; send the merchandise to the buyers who paid for it and currently own it, let them grumble.

any options that deviate from the first two are probably legally some form of theft and the very least clearly exploitative of your position as a proxy buyer. i will personally continue to choose not to participate in this transaction, and i personally encourage others not to as well.

+1

We cannot continue to bail out SP every time they mess up. Not to mention we all know that these 200 sets of modifiers will be sold for materials cost which will be very minimal. Return to SP and let them fix their mistake we must not continue doing this. This affects every future group buy.

[mickd]

I don't think SP's discounted price would be their cost price. I feel as if (as low as it'll seem to us), it'll still contain some profits for them.

Anyways, to me it looks like some people just have something personal against Rag. He's being a good sport by letting us know what's going on. Give it a day or 2 for him to sort everything out with Melissa. I feel as if his original plan wasn't all that bad. A lot of people end up getting a set for cheaper, a lot more people that missed out (or didn't feel like grabbing a set back then) can get a set at a very attractive price. SP appreciates our effects (hopefully). By the way, without drilling him for more details, I instantly understood what he meant by what he said originally. Maybe that's why I'm not angry at the situation at all.

By the way, does mkawa's 2 scenarios even cover what Tsangan did with the Riddler keys? I feel as if this is a very similar situation. Tsangan bought them all at a discounted price. He sells them at a decent price. He loses out on the first however many caps. He'll eventually break even as long as they slowly sell (tho since paypal screwed him over, this probably won't happen for awhile still), and any extras are profits for him. While there was a lot of discussion about it then as well, most the senior members were ok with it. Why is this any different?

I personally appreciate Rag's work. He keeps us updated, he's trying to keep the majority of people happy (on both sides). He's getting us more caps. We pay a very decent price (basically exactly what it costs any ways, since most his profits are probably from the leftover sets any ways). I don't really have much more to say. Just wanted to chime in, give my opinion and my support.

[fartq]

tsangan was given 3 options by mel:

1) return the defective merch, get it all replaced with non-defective merch. this would naturally cause a delay, but no harm no foul.

2) keep the defective merch as substitution for the merch he very clearly ordered. send out people's orders with defective parts, let them work it out.

3) pay a discounted price for 100% of the defective merch in addition to the cost paid initially for the ordered merch, receive ordered merch at a later date

he opted for #3, paid for the defective merch completely out of pocket, and slowly sold it to try to make up for the cost of buying it. i don't believe he has managed to reach that goal, especially since pp froze 2k of assets on him in the middle of his subsequent gb.

at no point did he imply that melissa would be fired for making a mistake, say anything as vague as "i don't know, the math is incomplete", or avoid direct questions. further, he stated exactly the options he was given, including exact pricing, cleanly stated that he was willing to take the risk and took it. the gb proceeded as normal except for the delay and the additional availability of the defective caps.

rag can obviously opt for option 1, and everything proceeds as normal, with no additional risk to rag or the GB buyers.

option 2 is already out the window, as he's asked for replacements.

if he is willing to take the risk of #3, he can ask for a discounted price from mel and pay for some a priori fixed percentage of the defective merch out of pocket. he must recognize that he is taking that risk and it is his own to take, no one else is responsible for him taking that risk or at any obligation to help him recover the money or labor he invests in the defective merch. BUT before he sells a single one of these discounted caps, he must purchase them directly from SP, as he rejected them as defective the second he ordered free replacements, and hence they are still the property of SP.

what he seems to be intimating is that he wants all the potential gains of option 3 without taking any of the risk. he would like to set a retail price that moves as much of the defective merch as possible without first purchasing it from SP, deciding on manufacturer pricing, or deciding how many units he wants to purchase from SP.

i suspect the reason why the conversation was tense was not because mel was so afraid of "screwing up" or "being fired", but because rag would not commit to one of the above options. she either needs the defective merch back or she needs him to purchase it, all or in part, from SP at a fixed rate. further, he needs to decide now, so that she can either work on moving the inventory of defective parts herself, or so that she can compute a price for him to purchase the parts he is currently in possession of.

obviously the current GB members don't really care how much risk rag takes, so no rag, it's not their decision. you either purchase the defective items now, or you send them back. pick one please, do it now, and then work on getting these people their caps asap.

again, further vacillation on this reflects poorly on you, and i will personally not be doing business with you in the future, nor will i recommend that others do business with you.

[Ragnorock]

I don't think SP's discounted price would be their cost price. I feel as if (as low as it'll seem to us), it'll still contain some profits for them.

Anyways, to me it looks like some people just have something personal against Rag. He's being a good sport by letting us know what's going on. Give it a day or 2 for him to sort everything out with Melissa. I feel as if his original plan wasn't all that bad. A lot of people end up getting a set for cheaper, a lot more people that missed out (or didn't feel like grabbing a set back then) can get a set at a very attractive price. SP appreciates our effects (hopefully). By the way, without drilling him for more details, I instantly understood what he meant by what he said originally. Maybe that's why I'm not angry at the situation at all.

By the way, does mkawa's 2 scenarios even cover what Tsangan did with the Riddler keys? I feel as if this is a very similar situation. Tsangan bought them all at a discounted price. He sells them at a decent price. He loses out on the first however many caps. He'll eventually break even as long as they slowly sell (tho since paypal screwed him over, this probably won't happen for awhile still), and any extras are profits for him. While there was a lot of discussion about it then as well, most the senior members were ok with it. Why is this any different?

I personally appreciate Rag's work. He keeps us updated, he's trying to keep the majority of people happy (on both sides). He's getting us more caps. We pay a very decent price (basically exactly what it costs any ways, since most his profits are probably from the leftover sets any ways). I don't really have much more to say. Just wanted to chime in, give my opinion and my support.

Thanks, and yeah that's exactly how I feel, vendettas against me and all. Or at least if the drama of the last couple of pages isn't evidence of that, I don't know what to think. Its not my fault you guys misinterpret my intentions constantly, that's just you guys being untrusting. I'm pretty sure I've done nothing to warrant that sort of treatment. Yes I make moneys off of these group buys, it pays my rent. It buys me a few keysets or keyboards here and there, but it doesn't make me afford a new car or anything like that. I'm not rollin the dough and doing it according to what Melissa and I worked out isn't going to change that in the slightest. The most likely result is me putting a bunch of time into that plan and having nothing to show for it, not even gratitude since that's apparently in short supply today.

As for this vs Riddler, I don't see how its really that different at all. The only real difference is that instead of sending them back to SP until I have the money to buy them (which I don't right now) I get to sell them to make the money to pay for them later. But hey, I went and showered and had breakfast at 9:30pm, and I feel a lot better, as well as having plenty of time to mull it over. If its a toss up on what everyone wants to do, I'll just send em back because its saves me a big pain in the ass I don't have time for and I don't have to sit and be judged by the mods constantly over whether I'm making a dime or not. -.- Then Mkawa can buy them and sell em and make the money instead... which seems like what he wants to do. Since he'll probably donate most of it to GH, I'm cool with that. For the record I'm not insinuating that Mkawa or anyone would do anything dishonest, I'm just going off of what he said earlier. I feel like I need to explain everything now so there is 0 misinterpretation.


Edit: @ Above:


Going with option 1 for now, will purchases sets later (option 3) if I can eventually afford it. Also you're officially a tool, since I'm just a guy trying to make the majority happy. I was never given ANY options from Melissa, so no, I had no idea what they were or what I should do, so I came here with a tentative plan and asked for input. You made assumptions and have been very critical of me this entire time. After this, I'm not sure why I'd want to deal with you either. I don't get it guys, what the hell did I do wrong?

[demik]

you should get a vendor subforum

Yes I make moneys off of these group buys, it pays my rent. It buys me a few keysets or keyboards here and there, but it doesn't make me afford a new car or anything like that.

and that is why.

if you want to make money off the community, take the risk yourself and invest in the product.

boilermaker did it. keyboard story did it.

[fartq]

The only real difference is that instead of sending them back to SP until I have the money to buy them (which I don't right now) I get to sell them to make the money to pay for them later.

what you're asking for is called a bridge loan, and SP has no obligation to give this to you. you either purchase them from SP now at a pre-negotiated price, or you send them back. if, for some reason, mel gave you a bridge loan without proper underwriting, and then you defaulted on it, yes, mel might lose her job, but it would be because she did something improper by giving you the short-term financing, not because she has done anything improper up to this point.

now, speaking as a moderator, i'm happy to give you a vendor subforum. it's what we do here.

[Ragnorock]

I didn't ask for any sort of loan, hell I'm not even sure what the plan actually constituted at this point. I thought what I was doing was perfectly acceptable and a nice favor for SP. Clearly that's not okay with you guys, so out of respect for the community I'll do what you think is right. That's all I've ever done...


I don't need a vendor subforum. Maybe later.

[fartq]

purchasing them outright is a nice favor to SP, and if you'll recall, it's what tsangan did. asking for financing to sell them is not a favor in any way.

[Ragnorock]

She was the one that said I didn't have to pay for them immediately...

[Ragnorock]

you should get a vendor subforum

Yes I make moneys off of these group buys, it pays my rent. It buys me a few keysets or keyboards here and there, but it doesn't make me afford a new car or anything like that.

and that is why.

if you want to make money off the community, take the risk yourself and invest in the product.

boilermaker did it. keyboard story did it.

Because buying 1500 blank PBT keys from SP to ship to Imsto before even putting up an order thread isn't risky at all? Because that's not what I'm doing or anything... Or what about how I bought $1200 worth of keysets for people who hadn't paid their invoices, (most of which never did,) just to get the group buy in on time. Or how I'm trying to produce a Starcraft 2 themed dyesub set that includes race (and maybe Blizzard) logos sourced from China in advance and dyesubbed spell keys that cost me hundreds to have multiple proofs run so that they actually look good when I go to have them run. Unfortunately due to cost increases its pretty unlikely its even going to work because even at the 100 tier price the base TKL keysets are $100 not even including the spell keys. So I'll probably be out hundreds on a failed group buy that gets no orders. But hey, that's not what I'm working on at all over here... or what I've been spending practically my entire summer on when I'm not fulfilling other obligations.

Yeah I invest in the product. I put the money I make to good use doing and making things nobody else is doing on here. I'm sorry I don't have the time or the money left to put up my own website and do whatever you think I should be doing. Its funny because last year, when I actually had the resources available to have a website made, I suggested it before everyone else did it, and guess what? Hazeluff shot it down, only to start up KeyboardStory less than 6 months later. Last time I checked I don't HAVE to do what you say, I usually just end up doing it so you stop b!tching at everything I do. Everyone else here makes money off of doing group buys, quit picking on me because I'm more open about it.

Its funny how once you guys tell me what I should do, I do it, and apparently that makes me a flip flopper and not someone people should be doing business with. I ask, how am I not consistent in what I do, offer, and deliver? How are you not making a good guy greg pic of me for trying to get everyone lower prices for everyone, keep SP happy, and provide (clearly desired, I've had a half dozen PMs for them since I sold out) keysets to those that missed out? So Melissa was going to give me keysets to sell on consignment, what of it? I mean that's what it is. I sell them for SP and they get the vast majority of any proceeds. From the start I stated it was doubtful I would end up making any money at all, and yet you guys jump all over me like I'm some evil keycap monger out to peddle overpriced keycaps to you addicts. Sorry, but I really don't care what you try to paint me as, I know plenty of people that think you both are out of line. Its also funny how I think you're both ****s but I'm going to do what you said because I really don't care to go through all the work of doing what I planned now. Grats, you win, now go away.


/rant