I need help deciding on a board!

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I have been reading for at least 2-3 weeks now on mechanical keyboards. I've currently got a Razer BlackWidow (blues) and a QuickFire Rapid with browns. After reading something on forums, I'm even more confused about what I want after learning all about swith types, feels, costar, ione, etc... so I might have a lot of questions for you guys.  Here's a list of stuff I've come up with. I have read through these forums, searched, and searched other forums, sites and YouTube for answers. So try not to be too aggravated with me for asking some possibly ignorant questions.

*Do all browns feel the same? For that matter, will all switches of a type feel the same? As in the same pressure to actuate, etc.?

*Do the browns on the QuickFire Rapid feel or sound "hollow" when typing and somewhat low-quality to those who have used other brown boards alongside their Rapid?

*I'm thinking after using them a while, I like browns. However I have not tried Reds yet. Is a red basically a brown without the tiny tactile bump? When typing, I don't feel the bump in the browns really, so I'm wondering if I should swap to a red board. Plus, the QuickFire Rapid with reds looks pretty darn sweet.

*Does someone have a QuickFire Rapid with blues and a Razer BlackWidow that they can compare? Which one feels better to you, and why? Is key pressure the same?

*I'm thinking of going with Reds instead of browns since I bottom out all the time. Should I do this? Will reds basically be linear browns as far as feel/key pressure to actuate goes? Will I like reds if I like browns, since I can't tell browns have much tactile feedback when typing anyway? (sorry if this is similar to the question above, just trying to phrase it a different way.)

*What is iOne vs Costar and why do people hate iOne? Is it feel, sound, quality, reliability, etc.?

*Is the Rosewill RK-9000, RK-9100 series as good as the QuickFire Rapid? I'm looking at it as a possible full size solution, though I'd rather go tenkeyless.

I think that's all the questions I have. The reason I'm so stuck on this is that I'm looking to purchase something that I intend to keep for years, and I'm going to keep only one keyboard (hopefully... I know these things grow into addictions sometimes). I would actually like backlighting for such a long term investment, but honestly I don't look at my keyboard that much since I touch type, so it isn't necessary. It just looks really darn cool. One of the expensive backlit options I have in mind is the Nighthawk 9x, because it's got reds and it looks amazing to me. If it passes the GeekHack stamp of approval, I may be interested in it as well even though it is full size.

Anyway, thanks for your help all, and ask any questions necessary.

[alaricljs]

I have a couple Filcos with browns and a QFR w/ reds.  I bottom the browns, and I can't stand the reds.  Once you try reds you may realize that you actually do feel the brown bump.

The feel of browns is fairly consistent across similarly built boards (plate mount with the same plate material for instance).  Case material can also be a factor, more with PCB mount boards, however full aluminum boards (KMAC, Cheat, ...) really change how hard the bottoming feels.

A lot of the sound of keyboards is influenced by the key cap, never went near a Razer product so I can't give you any comparisons.

iOne and Costar are OEMs, they are the companies that deal directly with manufacturing and designing boards.  Costar is known as a more consistent and better quality producer.  Many brands produce their boards through Costar, and many through iOne.

Rosewill's 9000 keyboards and most CM Storm KB products are Costar.  I don't recall if anyone confirmed what OEM does the Rosewill 9100's, the odd-ball modifier row makes many suspect iOne.

[boost]

I have a couple Filcos with browns and a QFR w/ reds.  I bottom the browns, and I can't stand the reds.  Once you try reds you may realize that you actually do feel the brown bump.

The feel of browns is fairly consistent across similarly built boards (plate mount with the same plate material for instance).  Case material can also be a factor, more with PCB mount boards, however full aluminum boards (KMAC, Cheat, ...) really change how hard the bottoming feels.

A lot of the sound of keyboards is influenced by the key cap, never went near a Razer product so I can't give you any comparisons.

iOne and Costar are OEMs, they are the companies that deal directly with manufacturing and designing boards.  Costar is known as a more consistent and better quality producer.  Many brands produce their boards through Costar, and many through iOne.

Rosewill's 9000 keyboards and most CM Storm KB products are Costar.  I don't recall if anyone confirmed what OEM does the Rosewill 9100's, the odd-ball modifier row makes many suspect iOne.

This pretty much sums it up. Cherry MX Clears has a more noticeable bump compared to mx browns. Leopold make keyboards with MX Clears.

[absyrd]

*Do all browns feel the same? For that matter, will all switches of a type feel the same? As in the same pressure to actuate, etc.? Browns, blues, and reds all use the same springs.

*Do the browns on the QuickFire Rapid feel or sound "hollow" when typing and somewhat low-quality to those who have used other brown boards alongside their Rapid? That hollow sound is bottoming out the keypress. It is going to sound the same on most plate-mounted boards. People claim to reduce this by using things such as o-rings, stickers, etc.

*I'm thinking after using them a while, I like browns. However I have not tried Reds yet. Is a red basically a brown without the tiny tactile bump? When typing, I don't feel the bump in the browns really, so I'm wondering if I should swap to a red board. Plus, the QuickFire Rapid with reds looks pretty darn sweet.
Reds have the same springs as browns. People often call browns "scratchy reds". They feel very light. Some say lighter than browns because they don't have the bump. Typing on reds with a light touch is also known on here as "cloud of boobs".

*Does someone have a QuickFire Rapid with blues and a Razer BlackWidow that they can compare? Which one feels better to you, and why? Is key pressure the same?
The actuation force will be the same. However it may feel a bit different due to plate thickness and other build quality differences. I don't know the specifics.


*I'm thinking of going with Reds instead of browns since I bottom out all the time. Should I do this? Will reds basically be linear browns as far as feel/key pressure to actuate goes? Will I like reds if I like browns, since I can't tell browns have much tactile feedback when typing anyway? (sorry if this is similar to the question above, just trying to phrase it a different way.)
You MAY bottom out more with reds but you MAY like the linear and less "scratchy" feel. I personally like browns better.

*What is iOne vs Costar and why do people hate iOne? Is it feel, sound, quality, reliability, etc.?
Yes. All of the above.

*Is the Rosewill RK-9000, RK-9100 series as good as the QuickFire Rapid? I'm looking at it as a possible full size solution, though I'd rather go tenkeyless.
Stick with the Rapid as the best bang-for-your-buck tenkeyless.

Did my best to give concise answers. I'm sure someone can/will expand more if needed.

Most people buy and try many boards before settling (or don't settle at all).

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Thanks much for your replies.

I guess I'm trying to avoid spending a ton of money at a time on boards, but I'm already sitting on two. Why not get another one, right? 

My top consideration right now is the QuickFire Rapid with reds, for a few reasons:
*I like the tenkeyless form factor.
*I have a QuickFire Rapid with browns, so I know some about what to expect.
*It's cheap and everyone says they are good boards. So, I'm basing a lot on that. That's why I got the brown version.
*I love the look. The black/red look is better to me than my brown switch model with the kinda... I don't know, silver/black or something? I'm a little colorblind too, so that might play into how I see it.

I've really grown into the browns after typing with it for a few days. At first compared to the blues, I really thought I was going to straight up return this thing because the blues were just what I was used to. Today, I threw the blue switches back on the computer and oddly, didn't like them as much anymore. Just didn't feel like the softer brown switch, so I swapped back. So the browns grew on me because of their lighter actuation force, sound, and feel. However, I don't feel the bump when typing at all, but the bump is felt when gaming, so that is cool. However, my main concern is to get a keyboard for typing, even though I will game a lot with it. I type much much more.

So, I may pull the trigger on the red and get it here by Friday to try it out. I think I'll just have to do it so I can see what I like. I just don't want to waste the money if it's so similar to browns that I won't really notice the difference. From what I've read, red switches could be something I like now that I'm more used to the "lightness" of the browns.

The Nighthawk X9 looks completely awesome, and that does make me want to get it. But I don't know a lot about it, and plus it is SO expensive. $150 is a lot if I am functionally (key wise) getting the same thing out of a QuickFire Rapid with reds.

[alaricljs]

A quick note on switch feel... the stated spring weight tolerance by Cherry is *huge*  people have noticed different batches of switches feeling different but I haven't seen anyone measure them as really being different.  There's always the possibility that Cherry produces a batch of browns w/ 35g force, or even 55g force since it's inside the tolerance specification.

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A quick note on switch feel... the stated spring weight tolerance by Cherry is *huge*  people have noticed different batches of switches feeling different but I haven't seen anyone measure them as really being different.  There's always the possibility that Cherry produces a batch of browns w/ 35g force, or even 55g force since it's inside the tolerance specification.

Ok. That's helpful to know. I got a brown board because I was looking for more tactile feel, but it's got barely any feel at all. Though reading a lot about it from others, it looks like "dirty reds" is a type of description used for browns sometimes because they are almost like the red but with that little scratchy bump at the actuation point.

I guess my main concern is are red and browns different enough that I should look at it in the first place? Just unsure on pulling the trigger on the QuickFire Rapid with reds if it's going to be really similar to the browns I already have on the same board.

[Burz]

It sounds like you don't like either board very much, since you're looking for another keyboard.

I've only tried the MX browns, blues and blacks but haven't bought a Cherry switch board yet because the switches just didn't entice me: blues came the closest in feel, but the hysteresis is noticeable and the noise almost ridiculously annoying; the other switches were too linear and/or springy for my taste. The actuation point also seems too low to be satisfying or give me time to avoid a hard bottom-out much of the time.

I went with an Alps-based board which (along with Buckling Spring) I think is better for typing overall. I used to use IBM BS boards a lot and they were a workout for my fingers, so I consider my present Dell board to be lighter and a happy medium in that respect. Ultimately I'll probably want something ergonomic (split, angled, un-staggered and TKL) with Matias switches.

Most people can probably adapt to typing very well on any of the boards being discussed. Its a matter of what you feel to be comfortable and satisfying.

The real shame in all this is that there are almost no retail or other venues where people can try out good keyboards -- rubber dome has a 'monopoly' on floor space and retailers don't give a damn if you want to throw their keyboards out a window. Back in the day, this sort of consumer conundrum would be averted through computer clubs and user groups and physical considerations didn't take a backseat to "design" (i.e. flashy looks). It would be great if that sort of dynamic could be revived.

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@Burz - I think it's less of a "don't like the boards" than I'm just the type of person that has to try everything out before I'm sure of what I want to do. 

I think I'll pull the trigger on the Rapid with reds and see how it feels. If it's really similar to the browns, I'll use both for a bit and decide on which I want to keep. As long as these boards will last me a long time (I type a lot, and use the computer a lot in general) I'll be happy with picking a 10keyless form factor and getting the right feeling switch.

If I do get the Rapid with reds, I'll update this post and let you guys know my impressions.

Edit - I did order the Red version. I figure I can't decide unless I actually try it. Like Burz said, it sucks you can't go to stores anymore and actually try something out before you buy it. Keeps the shippers in business I guess!

[Skull_Angel]

From the way you describe the feel of the keys I get the impression you may really like Ergo-Clear, unfortunately this is a modified switch type that takes the stem from Clear (very noticeably tactile compared to Brown) and the spring from Red/Brown/Blue (clear springs are much stiffer, comparable to Black).

Modifying switches isn't hard if you have experience (de)soldering, but it's time consuming and often costs considerably more than you may want to spend unless you get lucky at thrift/second hand stores. Then again, there are a few members here that offer such services (sorry, I'm not familiar with who exactly still).

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Geez, that sounds like a lot of work. And unfortunatly no, I'm not any good at soldering anything. 

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Hey guys!

I got my red QuickFire Rapid today. I'm surprised (again!) by how it feels compared to descriptions that I have read on the 'net. Here are my impressions:

*Reds are stiffer than I thought.
*The browns on my other Rapid feel lighter and easier to press than the reds. I expected the browns to be stiffer.
*The reds feel pretty good for stuff. The more I use them the more I like them. Typing faster on them is proving a slight challenge because I'm just getting used to them, and I actually can tell the browns have a little feedback when you push the key down. Coming from blues to browns though, I hardly noticed the browns having any tactile feedback.
*The board looks really cool with the black key "background" that shows through the keys. It has no branding on the top, just the back (out of sight).
*It feels nice over all. I am a little uncertain of when I actuate the keys sometimes if I don't bottom out, but I basically bottom out most of the time so that isn't a big deal. Just something I will get used to.

Biggest surprise, to me, is that the reds feel stiffer than the browns. I expected the exact opposite.

My question about the browns early on was "Is this how they are supposed to feel?" because they were so light and easy to press. What is everyone's opinion on this? I expected browns to be stiffer than reds. Is this not the case? Are they only stiffer to to the actuation point or something? Because bottoming out, the reds feel stiffer to me and that's not what I'd expected. I expected a lighter brown with no bump. Instead I got what I would have said were blacks. 

So, let me know what you guys think. Ultimately, it just comes down to what I like the feel of more for typing, as that's what I will do with this board mostly (along with some gaming). I can use almost anything for gaming though. Typing is the most important thing. I just want something that will last a long time and not give me any troubles. The idea is to keep a good, expensive board for a few years until the next great thing is out. I kept my last membrane board for 7-8 years, so I'd like to see at least that out of either of these rapids.

Does my brown switch Rapid sounds like its an accurate depiction of browns to you guys? Just seems like it's lighter to me than it should be. But, I have only ever tried one brown board.

Thanks guys!

[Skull_Angel]

Different batches and age can change the feel of the spring feedback; iirc Cherry MX has a tolerance of +/- 10g or something outrageous like that. This normally isn't a problem concerning manufacturing boards because it's more than likely they'll be from the same batch and feel uniform.

[newtrekemotion]

A quick note on switch feel... the stated spring weight tolerance by Cherry is *huge*  people have noticed different batches of switches feeling different but I haven't seen anyone measure them as really being different.  There's always the possibility that Cherry produces a batch of browns w/ 35g force, or even 55g force since it's inside the tolerance specification.

Different batches and age can change the feel of the spring feedback; iirc Cherry MX has a tolerance of +/- 10g or something outrageous like that. This normally isn't a problem concerning manufacturing boards because it's more than likely they'll be from the same batch and feel uniform.

I never knew this tidbit. Thank you both for the enlightenment on the subject. If mechanical keyboards are really becoming more popular, I wonder if Cherry would be able to start demanding tighter QC on the springs from where they source them.

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It makes it a little hard to go on descriptions of boards. My line of thinking was something like this, from all my research:

*Blues - fairly stiff, clicky - met expectations.
*Blacks - fairly stiff, linear - met expectations.
*Browns - expected fairly stiff with tactile bump but no clickiness - got very light, very minimal tactile sensation instead.
*Reds - expected really light, easy to press keys that are linear - got the linear, but they feel stiffer than browns.

For reference, the only boards I have tried are BlackWidow (blues), Meka G1 (blacks), QuickFire Rapid (browns), QuickFire Rapid (reds).

When you expect certain things from online reviews, posts, videos, etc. and then the keys can fluctuate a lot in feel, it makes it hard to pick what you want. I can pretty much remember how my Meka G1 felt and I don't remember it being much stiffer, if any, than the reds on this new Rapid I have.

I was thinking the stiffness of these reds with a slight bump in there for the "brown feel", but that's not how it turned out.

So, now I just need to decide if I'm going to keep the reds or go with the browns. At least it's a good decision to have to make. I'm happy with both boards so it will be hard to send either one back. I'd keep both if I could afford it! 

[Skull_Angel]

Blue and Brown are more comparable to Red than Black in most cases, their heavier counterparts are Green/White (Tactile+Clicky) and Clear/Grey (Tactile+Non-Clicky). I'm not saying you're wrong, because the spring rate tolerance for Cherry MX is pretty large in general; some times Brown feel lighter than Red and some times Blue feels nearly as stiff as Black, but according to Cherry's spread sheets Red/Brown/Blue should have a more similar spring rate.

[Xplaced]

Skull_Angel - I get what you're saying. Spec-wise, you'd think it would work as you said (and it should!). That's why it makes it hard to get something based on online descriptions because the tolerences apparently can be off enough that a red can feel stiffer than a brown, or the blues can be stiffer than them all, etc. It can be different between the same board too, it seems (QuickFire Rapid). Makes me feel like if I had another QF Rapid with browns, it might not feel the same as the other one with browns!

Overall I'm happy with both boards and now I have to make a decision on which one to keep, and that will be hard! Ha!

Pics for those interested. I like how the red board has the red background behind the keys. Both boards look pretty cool though. The red one is a lot less branded.
Brown - https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BzFEQ3N5D8LsWTR6LTFhaWdyWE0
Red - https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BzFEQ3N5D8LsT3VEOEtBNEZEaEU

[Skull_Angel]

Good luck! Always hate making those choices... lol