Author Topic: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it  (Read 38834 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Malphas

  • Posts: 247
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #150 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:09:07 »
Who said I'm bitter and angry?

You certainly come across that way.

Why are you making up and assuming incorrect things about my character?

Ahem, coming from the guy who made statements like:

The belief in statism is a complete and utter disregard for the sanctity of human life. Malphas has even admitted that his belief makes him feel that way. And he has even said that he doesn't believe in right or wrong, unless there is legitimization of a monopoly on violence and arbitration in order to decide for him.

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #151 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:11:56 »
That's true though; you did say that. If that's not true then why don't you clarify right now?

You certainly come across that way.

Well people who like to control others tend to make assumptions about them in order to make themselves feel better, so I'm not surprised that I come off that way to you.

Offline hashbaz

  • Grand Ancient One
  • * Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 5057
  • Location: SF Bae Area
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #152 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:13:25 »
My question about justice in an anarchic system remains unanswered as far as I'm concerned, KL.  Simply asserting that our current system is corrupt or ineffective is not sufficient.

For example, without a centralized authority how do you collect evidence effectively?  How do you hold trials if no one is obligated to follow the rules?  I'm thinking of things like search warrants which compel people to allow their property to be searched, or face penalties and get searched anyway.  That is an application of coercive force by the government that you probably hate, but which I value.

Offline Malphas

  • Posts: 247
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #153 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:15:09 »
That's true though; you did say that. If that's not true then why don't you clarify right now?

I already did, either you ignored it or didn't understand it though.

Here:
I can't tell if you're being deliberately dishonest or if its your failure to understand that makes you keep spouting these strawman arguments. I've already said morality and law are seperate things. Governments don't set morals, they set laws, so clearly I couldn't possibly be saying that the sanctity of human life (which I never expressed my personal opinion of) could be set by a "monopoly of violent force" could I?

I don't believe a person has an innate right to life, because there's simply no such thing.  That has no bearing on my personal views, it's just an unavoidable reality that no rights exist outside of the ones that are able to be enforced and protected by a structured authority with the power to do so.  As much as you might wish to believe otherwise it will never make it the case. Outside of a statist system you have no more right to life than any other organism on the planet does.

Edit: I'm not the only one who's explained this to you either, sth has already expressed the same thing, but you failed to understand it from him as well. You can't just claim "it exists because I say/think it does" and expect to be taken seriously, let alone try to then hypocritically accuse others of failing to effectively debate.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:17:29 by Malphas »

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #154 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:18:18 »
For example, without a centralized authority how do you collect evidence effectively?  How do you hold trials if no one is obligated to follow the rules?  I'm thinking of things like search warrants which compel people to allow their property to be searched, or face penalties and get searched anyway.  That is an application of coercive force by the government that you probably hate, but which I value.

I believe that I twice provided examples including independent insurance and dispute-resolution organizations, in order to help people manage risk. You are correct that injustice will occur, but the problem is that I, nor you, nor anyone knows enough about any one situation that you are not involved in to be able to decide what the appropriate course of justice or action is, in regards to all people who are involved. And assuming so provides a much greater risk that injustice will be done, since everyone has a different view of what justice is. The Patriot Act paved the way for illegal search and seizure and the NDAA paved the way for indefinite detention...of course I hate those things. I think that people should have the right to be left alone.

I can't tell if you're being deliberately dishonest or if its your failure to understand that makes you keep spouting these strawman arguments. I've already said morality and law are seperate things. Governments don't set morals, they set laws, so clearly I couldn't possibly be saying that the sanctity of human life (which I never expressed my personal opinion of) could be set by a "monopoly of violent force" could I?

I don't believe a person has an innate right to life, because there's simply no such thing.  That has no bearing on my personal views, it's just an unavoidable reality that no rights exist outside of the ones that are able to be enforced and protected by a structured authority with the power to do so.  As much as you might wish to believe otherwise it will never make it the case. Outside of a statist system you have no more right to life than any other organism on the planet does.

Right, you've said that you don't believe in an innate human right to life. Ok, I will grant that it's your belief. It's what it means that I don't agree with...it means you believe that a monopoly on violence and arbitration is necessary to decide who does or does not have a right to their life. And as a result of your very belief, hundreds of thousands of innocent people die EVERY YEAR. Statism is literally, not figuratively, the most dangerous religion in the world. I believe that everyone has an innate right to their life, simply because they are alive, and that I have no more right to infringe upon their right to life than they do of mine. This is, by all matters, a difference of opinion of course. But yours legitimizes a monopoly on violence and mine does not, and that is the clear difference, and I already made that point.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:23:28 by keyboardlover »

Offline Malphas

  • Posts: 247
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #155 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:23:29 »
The thing is, keyboardlover. If you're a law-abiding citizen then you are left alone, and even if you're not, the odds are you'll still be left alone as you're under the radar. Admittedly some of the laws are unjust (like drug prohibition) but the simplest solution to that is to argue the law should be changed, not that the entire idea of Statism is inherently evil (your repeated assertion of this is probably the most damning argument against your entire position because to a normal person it sounds utterly hyperbolic and ridiculous).

Offline hashbaz

  • Grand Ancient One
  • * Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 5057
  • Location: SF Bae Area
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #156 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:24:10 »
I didn't reference the Patriot Act at all.  I'm talking about vanilla search warrants that must be sanity-checked by a judge prior to being executed.  So what if the party I suspect of having wronged me refuses to submit to arbitration?

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #157 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:26:57 »
The thing is, keyboardlover. If you're a law-abiding citizen then you are left alone, and even if you're not, the odds are you'll still be left alone as you're under the radar. Admittedly some of the laws are unjust (like drug prohibition) but the simplest solution to that is to argue the law should be changed, not that the entire idea of Statism is inherently evil (your repeated assertion of this is probably the most damning argument against your entire position because to a normal person it sounds utterly hyperbolic and ridiculous).

Oh really? I'm forced to use a currency controlled by a government monopoly on finance. I'm forced to cooperate in a corporatist system because without a bank account I can't get an apartment or a mortgage and without a job I can't eat. Because it's become illegal for anyone to be self-sustaining anymore. If you think that anyone has the right to be left alone in society, you're delusional, because as I've discussed laws are just pieces of paper with writing on them. Criminals don't follow them (including government) and whether or not someone commits one is always at the discretion of those in the monopoly of violence who are controlled by corporatism.

I didn't reference the Patriot Act at all.  I'm talking about vanilla search warrants that must be sanity-checked by a judge prior to being executed.  So what if the party I suspect of having wronged me refuses to submit to arbitration?

Well in a voluntary world you can choose to willingly submit to arbitration at the rule of an independent authority (not a monopolized one controlled by corporatism). The idea being that, if people do what's best for their wallet anyway, an independent one not corrupted by government has a greater chance of being virtuous in nature. Not that it necessarily would be, but the monopolized one, as I'm sure you'd agree, is utterly corrupt at the very core.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:31:21 by keyboardlover »

Offline Malphas

  • Posts: 247
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #158 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:27:13 »
Right, you've said that you don't believe in an innate human right to life. Ok, I will grant that it's your belief. It's what it means that I don't agree with...it means you believe that a monopoly on violence and arbitration is necessary to decide who does or does not have a right to their life.

No it doesn't.

And as a result of your very belief, hundreds of thousands of innocent people die EVERY YEAR. Statism is literally, not figuratively, the most dangerous religion in the world. I believe that everyone has an innate right to their life, simply because they are alive, and that I have no more right to infringe upon their right to life than they do of mine. This is, by all matters, a difference of opinion of course. But yours legitimizes a monopoly on violence and mine does not, and that is the clear difference, and I already made that point.

Stop using the same cliche statements over and over and explain how believing the right to life exists would suddenly stop people from being killed. It wouldn't, people would still be killed because there is no "right to life", you can't just believe it into existence and wake up to a world where no-one gets killed anymore.

Oh really? I'm forced to use a currency controlled by a government monopoly on finance. I'm forced to cooperate in a corporatist system because without a bank account I can't get an apartment or a mortgage and without a job I can't eat. Because it's become illegal for anyone to be self-sustaining anymore. If you think that anyone has the right to be left alone in society, you're delusional, because as I've discussed laws are just pieces of paper with writing on them. Criminals don't follow them (including government) and whether or not someone commits one is always at the discretion of those in the monopoly of violence who are controlled by corporatism.

No-one is really forcing you to do any of those things though. You're quite free to try and negotiate to be paid and barter in whatever physical goods you like instead of a fiat currency, you're free to not have a bank account and go live in the woods and forage/hunt for foods.

The issue isn't the government forcing you to be part of this system, it's society that compels you to be a part of it, because the rest of society doesn't want to change to accommodate the fact you don't want to play along. This isn't the fault of Statism or the government - it's your problem, not everyone else's. This is why you sound so bitter and resentful.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:33:06 by Malphas »

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #159 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:34:23 »
No it doesn't.

Then prove it, because you've yet to do so.

Stop using the same cliche statements over and over and explain how believing the right to life exists would suddenly stop people from being killed. It wouldn't, people would still be killed because there is no "right to life", you can't just believe it into existence and wake up to a world where no-one gets killed anymore.

It's not a "cliche", it's the truth which you're obviously not willing to admit because if you did, you'd have to admit that you believe murder can be justified (which you actually already have admitted, whether you know it or not). I never said no one would get killed in a world without government, I already said that I've accepted that life is filled with risk! All these points you're arguing now I've already proven earlier in the thread. Bro...do you even read??

No-one is really forcing you to do any of those things though. You're quite free to try and negotiate to be paid and barter in whatever physical goods you like instead of a fiat currency, you're free to not have a bank account and go live in the woods and forage/hunt for foods.

The issue isn't the government forcing you to be part of this system, it's society that compels you to be a part of it, because the rest of society doesn't want to change to accommodate the fact you don't want to play along. This isn't the fault of Statism or the government - it's your problem, not everyone else's. This is why you sound so bitter and resentful.

Dude, barter and other forms of currency are illegal in the USA! They have been ruled to not be "legal tender". And no, you're not free to go live in the woods and hunt because no one is free from taxation, and in order to pay taxes you need to involve yourself in corporatism. Statism is an inherent part of society which I already proved - it's simply a belief in a monopoly of force. If you stop believing in government it literally goes away and all that's left is a whole bunch of bad guys who you've armed with guns. I guess I sound bitter to you because you haven't faced the facts; that you are a slave to a system from which you have no way to free yourself. That you have legitimized a huge group of people with guns who want to take your stuff and they do it all the time in order to maintain their system.

Do you actually think you're free to leave? Go ahead and try...let me know how far you make it.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:41:38 by keyboardlover »

Offline Malphas

  • Posts: 247
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #160 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:40:08 »
I can't explain it any more simply to you, I don't believe in a "right to life" because there is no such thing. It has no bearing on my personal views about the value of life, or if murder can be justified, it simply means it doesn't exist. The burden is on you to prove such a right innately exists, not on me to disprove it. Similarly the onus is on you to try and justify why my refusal to believe in this non-existent, intangible right automatically equates to me believing "that a monopoly on violence and arbitration is necessary to decide who does or does not have a right to their life."

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #161 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:43:57 »
I can't explain it any more simply to you, I don't believe in a "right to life" because there is no such thing. It has no bearing on my personal views about the value of life, or if murder can be justified, it simply means it doesn't exist. The burden is on you to prove such a right innately exists, not on me to disprove it.

I already did; I am alive. Therefore I have a right to my life. In other words, you nor anyone else have a right to infringe upon my right to my life. Same goes for every other human being. I don't need a government to justify that.

Similarly the onus is on you to try and justify why my refusal to believe in this non-existent, intangible right automatically equates to me believing "that a monopoly on violence and arbitration is necessary to decide who does or does not have a right to their life."

You believe that government is necessary to provide people with a right to their life. Government is nothing more than a monopoly on violence and arbitration.

Offline hashbaz

  • Grand Ancient One
  • * Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 5057
  • Location: SF Bae Area
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #162 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:48:00 »
I didn't reference the Patriot Act at all.  I'm talking about vanilla search warrants that must be sanity-checked by a judge prior to being executed.  So what if the party I suspect of having wronged me refuses to submit to arbitration?

I feel like this got lost in the back and forth with Malphas.

I already did; I am alive. Therefore I have a right to my life. In other words, you nor anyone else have a right to infringe upon my right to my life. Same goes for every other human being. I don't need a government to justify that.

Can you define "right" for me?

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #163 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:51:13 »
Can you define "right" for me?

Sure.

Quote
Legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement; that is, rights are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people, according to some legal system, social convention, or ethical theory

See, rights are not statist principles by nature. They can be based on theory or social convention, including voluntary association/agreements.

I feel like this got lost in the back and forth with Malphas.

Actually I did address that - see above.

And just to clarify something here: I don't believe that statists are by nature dangerous people. I believe that their beliefs are inherently dangerous and that's the point I'm making in this thread. I think that the vast majority of people are not aware of how dangerous these beliefs are so I'm trying to spread awareness based on what I've learned. I wish not to attack anyone here or anything like that; just their beliefs. And I totally understand why these beliefs are held, because the vast majority of people are indoctrinated to believe these very things.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:58:19 by keyboardlover »

Offline Malphas

  • Posts: 247
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #164 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 13:00:40 »
Dude, barter and other forms of currency are illegal in the USA! They have been ruled to not be "legal tender".
I think you misunderstand the concept of legal tender. Legal tender is something that the government will accept as payment, which is where fiat currency derives its value. You're still free to pay all other individuals, businesses and organisations with whatever they're willing to accept; and unlike some nations there's not law that states people have to accept legal tender in the USA, if they don't want to.

And no, you're not free to go live in the woods and hunt because no one is free from taxation
If you don't have any income in fiat currency, there's nothing to tax. Not only that, but look at the actual reality of the situation - you think if you go disappear into the wilderness somewhere the government is going be like "hey! this guy isn't paying his taxes!" and send out the black helicopters to come get you?

and in order to pay taxes you need to involve yourself in corporatism.
Most people are quite glad to engage in corporatism and the massive benefits it provides compared to the meagre subsistence existence, that human society was like prior to it.

Statism is an inherent part of society which I already proved - it's simply a belief in a monopoly of force. If you stop believing in government it literally goes away and all that's left is a whole bunch of bad guys who you've armed with guns.
Bad guys who are do things like ensure my protection against actual violence and harm (as opposed to your definition of it which is having to pay taxes and use a fiat currency, apparently); will try and sentence anyone who does manage do me harm; maintains the various transport, electric, telecommunication infrastructure that I rely on it every day; sends firefighters to my home if it ever catches fire; sends an ambulance and paramedics to me if I'm ever struck down by an accident or medical condition, regulates the businesses and organisations I interact with to prevent my exploitation or harm as much as is possible (e.g. regulations against anticompetitive practices, food industry standards, etc.). Oh yeah, but I have to pay a percentage of my earnings (in the relatively stable government-provided currency, no less) in exchange. Yeah, what bad guys.

I guess I sound bitter to you because you haven't faced the facts; that you are a slave to a system from which you have no way to free yourself. That you have legitimized a huge group of people with guns who want to take your stuff and they do it all the time in order to maintain their system.
Actually, it's you that is unable to face the facts. That people are fully aware of the same things you are, but simply don't have a problem with it and don't see your ideas as anything remotely resembling a credible alternative, that not everyone shares your bitter, juvenile beliefs.

Do you actually think you're free to leave? Go ahead and try...let me know how far you make it.
Everything I've mentioned above should be pretty indicative that I have no desire to. But I still say that you genuinely should if you find the current system so awful. Go ahead and see how great the alternative is without a state.

Offline Malphas

  • Posts: 247
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #165 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 13:05:17 »
I already did; I am alive. Therefore I have a right to my life. In other words, you nor anyone else have a right to infringe upon my right to my life. Same goes for every other human being. I don't need a government to justify that.
This is just as meaningless as trying to claim a gazelle has a right to its life that's being infringed upon by a lion, as I said earlier. You claiming you have a right to life is going to have absolutely no tangible effect on anything whatsoever, therefore how does it even exist? It's just you saying words.

You believe that government is necessary to provide people with a right to their life. Government is nothing more than a monopoly on violence and arbitration.
Actually what I'm saying is that's the only way the concept of a "right" has any meaning. If a government or some other power representative of the population at large mandates that a every human has a right to life and it will do whatever is in its power to ensure that right is adhered to then that "right" can actually be said to exist in some sort of tangible form. Unlike in your non-state scenario where it means absolutely nothing other than something you want to pretend exists.

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #166 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 13:13:12 »
I think you misunderstand the concept of legal tender. Legal tender is something that the government will accept as payment, which is where fiat currency derives its value. You're still free to pay all other individuals, businesses and organisations with whatever they're willing to accept; and unlike some nations there's not law that states people have to accept legal tender in the USA, if they don't want to.

Right, but they're essentially forced to only accept FIAT currency, because that's what they have to pay the government. I can't pay my taxes with silver or gold and neither can they, so why would they accept it?

If you don't have any income in fiat currency, there's nothing to tax. Not only that, but look at the actual reality of the situation - you think if you go disappear into the wilderness somewhere the government is going be like "hey! this guy isn't paying his taxes!" and send out the black helicopters to come get you?

Where can I go? What land? Which property isn't owned by someone else? If I want to buy some, how will I go about doing that?

Bad guys who are do things like ensure my protection against actual violence and harm (as opposed to your definition of it which is having to pay taxes and use a fiat currency, apparently); will try and sentence anyone who does manage do me harm; maintains the various transport, electric, telecommunication infrastructure that I rely on it every day; sends firefighters to my home if it ever catches fire; sends an ambulance and paramedics to me if I'm ever struck down by an accident or medical condition, regulates the businesses and organisations I interact with to prevent my exploitation or harm as much as is possible (e.g. regulations against anticompetitive practices, food industry standards, etc.). Oh yeah, but I have to pay a percentage of my earnings (in the relatively stable government-provided currency, no less) in exchange. Yeah, what bad guys.

If taxation isn't violent forced collectivism, then why do people get thrown in cages at gun point for not paying them and shot if they try to escape. Government does NOT maintain "the various transport, electric, telecommunication infrastructure" that you rely on every day. Those are nearly always provided by private organizations (and at least provided better as such, and would arguably be provided best without corporatism). The government doesn't "send firefighters" - you simply rely on an organization that protects you regardless of government's hand in it. Same goes for medical care and everything else - these are all services for which no government is needed. How does government protect you from being exploited - by exploiting you? If you're not a slave then why is your income considered by the government to be "100% taxable". Food industry standards? Oh those are so great - I'm glad all our food has GMOs and when they finally put all the farmers out of business we'll be completely dependent on a government-controlled food supply based solely on importation (as is happening around the world right now). Yea, those bad guys.

Everything I've mentioned above should be pretty indicative that I have no desire to. But I still say that you genuinely should if you find the current system so awful. Go ahead and see how great the alternative is without a state.

I've already described it (at least in part).

This is just as meaningless as trying to claim a gazelle has a right to its life that's being infringed upon by a lion, as I said earlier. You claiming you have a right to life is going to have absolutely no tangible effect on anything whatsoever, therefore how does it even exist? It's just you saying words.

So you don't think there is something that makes humans different from animals? You already compared humans to eggs and governments to omelettes but come ON!

Actually what I'm saying is that's the only way the concept of a "right" has any meaning. If a government or some other power representative of the population at large mandates that a every human has a right to life and it will do whatever is in its power to ensure that right is adhered to then that "right" can actually be said to exist in some sort of tangible form. Unlike in your non-state scenario where it means absolutely nothing other than something you want to pretend exists.

Right - that's the only way it has any meaning to YOU because you believe in statism. I already mentioned that I believe in a voluntary society based on the principle of non-aggression. Whether a right exists in my world is based on people voluntarily agreeing to it, but whether it exists in your world is based on shoving it down somebody's throat using a monopoly on violence.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 February 2013, 13:24:02 by keyboardlover »

Offline hashbaz

  • Grand Ancient One
  • * Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 5057
  • Location: SF Bae Area
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #167 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 13:25:41 »
Legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement; that is, rights are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people, according to some legal system, social convention, or ethical theory

So it sounds like you agree with Malphas that rights do not innately exist in the same way that a rock exists.  They exist only in the sense that some group of people (including states and voluntary associations) agree that they should be respected.

Actually I did address that - see above.

You said that arbitration is the answer, then I responded by asking what you would do if the person you believed to have wronged you refused to submit to arbitration.  Or, what if someone accused you of a crime you didn't commit -- why would you choose to submit to the hassle and expense of arbitration?

Offline Malphas

  • Posts: 247
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #168 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 13:27:07 »
Right, but they're essentially forced to only accept FIAT currency, because that's what they have to pay the government. I can't pay my taxes with silver or gold.

You really thing that's why businesses won't accept you paying them in silver or gold, or pork bellies or whatever? No, it's because fiat currency has massive advantages over bartering commodities and it far less hassle.

If taxation isn't violent forced collectivism, then why do people get thrown in cages at gun point for not paying them and shot if they try to escape.

If you're using a fiat currency then part of the deal is you pay taxes on your earnings. Don't like it? Good luck getting paid in something else. Imprisonment is the last consequence in a long chain of things before it gets to that point. If you stubbornly and foolishly refuse to pay taxes while still taking advantage of the system provided to you by tax income then that's really your own fault.

Government does NOT maintain "the various transport, electric, telecommunication infrastructure" that you rely on every day. Those are nearly always provided by private organizations (and at least provided better as such, and would arguably be provided best without corporatism). The government doesn't "send firefighters" - you simply rely on an organization that protects you regardless of government's hand in it. Same goes for medical care and everything else. How does government protect you from being exploited - by exploiting you? Food industry standards? Oh those are so great - I'm glad all our food has GMOs and when they finally put all the farmers out of business we'll be completely dependent on a government-controlled food supply based solely on importation (like is happening around the world right now). Yea, those bad guys.

Oh stop being deliberately obtuse. The fact is that it's taxpayer money that funds those things, which is the crux of it. If you weren't being taxed you'd have to pay for those things yourself, or go without - both scenarios would work leave the majority of people worse off, except the very wealthy. That's what's meant by government-provided.

Have you ever actually been outside the US, keyboardlover? If you'd ever been somewhere like Nigeria or the Ivory Coast where government regulation is much weaker, I think you'd realise how massively advantageous it is to have a government that does regulate industry.

Right - that's the only way it has any meaning to YOU because you believe in statism. I already mentioned that I believe in a voluntary society based on the principle of non-aggression. Whether a right exists in my world is based on people voluntarily agreeing to it, but whether it exists in your world is based on shoving it down somebody's throat using a monopoly on violence.

So you'd prefer a system where people voluntarily agree you have the right to life, but are free to choose to not believe you have that right? Whilst in the evil old Statist society your right to life is "shoved down somebody's throat using a monopoly on violence" - which in reality would be the police trying to prevent/arrest your murderer and the judicial system trying and sentencing him. What would the alternative to that be in your non-"monopoly on violence" society be that's so much better? Vigilantes and lynch mobs?
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 February 2013, 13:32:01 by Malphas »

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #169 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 13:32:43 »
So it sounds like you agree with Malphas that rights do not innately exist in the same way that a rock exists.  They exist only in the sense that some group of people (including states and voluntary associations) agree that they should be respected.

In the sense of a "right to life" no, I think that the right of a human to their life is an innate one based on the nature of human beings. We are animals, I agree, but there is a big difference in that we can choose whether or not to infringe upon another's life whereas animals are driven by instinct and need to do so in order to survive. It's different with humans. The belief that it's innate is a belief of course, and I understand that not everyone agrees with it, but I think it's sound in principle.

You said that arbitration is the answer, then I responded by asking what you would do if the person you believed to have wronged you refused to submit to arbitration.  Or, what if someone accused you of a crime you didn't commit -- why would you choose to submit to the hassle and expense of arbitration?

Well that's kind of my point - if you've voluntarily agreed to something like that then you're bound by it and force can be used at that point. It's like a contractual obligation. If someone accused me of a crime I didn't commit...well that depends completely on the situation. If we were both bound by a voluntary contract then I would have to submit to the hassle of arbitration but not necessarily the expense. Dispute resolutions organizations in a voluntary could be funded in much the same way as insurance.

Offline hashbaz

  • Grand Ancient One
  • * Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 5057
  • Location: SF Bae Area
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #170 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 13:39:35 »
In the sense of a "right to life" no, I think that the right of a human to their life is an innate one based on the nature of human beings. We are animals, I agree, but there is a big difference in that we can choose whether or not to infringe upon another's life whereas animals are driven by instinct and need to do so in order to survive. It's different with humans. The belief that it's innate is a belief of course, and I understand that not everyone agrees with it, but I think it's sound in principle.

You're saying it's innate, but it's also a belief.  What objective evidence is there that it is innate?

Well that's kind of my point - if you've voluntarily agreed to something like that then you're bound by it and force can be used at that point. It's like a contractual obligation. If someone accused me of a crime I didn't commit...well that depends completely on the situation. If we were both bound by a voluntary contract then I would have to submit to the hassle of arbitration but not necessarily the expense. Dispute resolutions organizations in a voluntary could be funded in much the same way as insurance.

Presumably I can leave a voluntary anarchic community at any time?  If I choose to leave rather than submit to arbitration, where does that leave the person who was defrauded?

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #171 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 13:44:09 »
You really thing that's why businesses won't accept you paying them in silver or gold, or pork bellies or whatever? No, it's because fiat currency has massive advantages over bartering commodities and it far less hassle.

Less hassle yes, because it's a forced currency. What are the advantages though? I'm not aware of any. Is the ability to easily print more money, devalue currency, control interest rates, etc. really an advantage to you?

If you're using a fiat currency then part of the deal is you pay taxes on your earnings. Don't like it? Good luck getting paid in something else. Imprisonment is the last consequence in a long chain of things before it gets to that point. If you stubbornly and foolishly refuse to pay taxes while still taking advantage of the system provided to you by tax income then that's really your own fault.

Yea but isn't that the point - I don't have a choice. In any of those things.

Oh stop being deliberately obtuse. The fact is that it's taxpayer money that funds those things, which is the crux of it. If you weren't being taxed you'd have to pay for those things yourself, or go without - both scenarios would work leave the majority of people worse off, except the very wealthy. That's what's meant by government-provided.

How is what I've said obtuse? How is the ability of an individual to voluntarily fund and benefit from what makes sense for them worse off for everyone except the very wealthy? In a non-corporatist free market world, there is a market for everyone, no matter their wealth (and the concept of wealth is arbitrary anyway, because currency isn't forced and therefore comes about naturally). Since markets aren't controlled or corrupted, win/win exchanges are more likely occur i.e. I have $1 (or whatever currency), you have a pen, I would prefer to have the pen and you prefer to have the dollar. Win/win.

Have you ever actually been outside the US, keyboardlover? If you'd ever been somewhere like Nigeria or the Ivory Coast where government regulation is much weaker, I think you'd realise how massively advantageous it is to have a government that does regulate industry.

I've traveled to 4 continents and 7 countries outside the USA, so yes. I haven't been to Africa but two of my cousins have and a couple other friends too. I know quite a bit about Africa. An unfortunate continent which has been raped by statism for natural resources for decades. And filled with LOTS of government. I understand all too well how corruption works.

So you'd prefer a system where people voluntarily agree you have the right to life, but are free to choose to not believe you have that right? Whilst in the evil old Statist society your right to life is "shoved down somebody's throat using a monopoly on violence" - which in reality would be the police trying to prevent/arrest your murderer and the judicial system trying and sentencing him. What would the alternative to that be in your non-"monopoly on violence" society be that's so much better? Vigilantes and lynch mobs?

Isn't that the whole point though - only in statism can an actual belief be forced upon another person. I don't need my right to life to be forced on any one else, because I know I have the right to protect it. Vigilantes and lynch mobs are pretty much the way the corrupt system works now. Would people be able to arm themselves in my world and protect themselves as they see fit? Certainly, but there is no monopolized system of violence forcing a "might makes right" mentality on everyone. People would continue to self-organize and deal with each other as they saw fit/made sense for them.

You're saying it's innate, but it's also a belief.  What objective evidence is there that it is innate?

The fact that I'm alive.

Presumably I can leave a voluntary anarchic community at any time?  If I choose to leave rather than submit to arbitration, where does that leave the person who was defrauded?

Well you'd still be bound by your original obligation wouldn't you? The idea isn't that everyone can do whatever they want; they just self-organize voluntarily.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 February 2013, 13:49:10 by keyboardlover »

Offline tufty

  • Posts: 347
  • Location: French Alps
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #172 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 13:48:16 »
Ok, sorry then gender-unknown squirrel. I haven't dug any hole though...my point has already been proven. If you have arguments then raise them.
That would be gender-irrelevant, really, but it's labouring the point.

As for /your/ point, I fail to see what it is, let alone any proof of it's correctness.  All I see is assertions that your worldview is correct, and labelling those who attempt to argue any one of those assertions as trolls.  I'm feeling relatively indulgent, though, so I'll assume you're merely young and idealistic (I've been there myself, as, I suspect, has Malphas) as opposed to any of the other obvious reasons.

As an aside, you brought up Orwell's "1984" in passing earlier; it's probably worth reading "Homage to Catalonia" to understand *why* he wrote it (and "Animal Farm", amongst other works).  It's also worth reading in order to understand the likely outcome of a truly anarchist state.

Anyway.  Let's have a look at your argument, as I see it.  Please feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood.

- The machinery of state, in any form, is inherently corrupt and based on the forcible and violent subjugation of the citizenry.

So, let's look at the machinery of state.

Fiscal policy and state-controlled currencies. Looking at things with the bitter and jaded eye of a 40+ year old radical left-winger, I see fiscal policy outside of the US, being more or less controlled by "the markets", the effectively unregulated (at least at an individual state level) embodiment of of the capitalist zero-sum-game.  Try asking a Greek or a Spaniard how much control their government has on fiscal policy, for example.  And the Euro itself is controlled t an extra-state level; it's not the only one. Even without that outlook, I see no realistic "other option" to a state-controlled fiscal policy, a baseline to relative value.  As for currencies, you are perfectly free to use one, multiple, or none at all.  Bartering still works admirably at a low level, although you may find it hard to barter for a new SUV with eggs laid by your chickens; commerces /will/ insist on using those pesky baselines. That said, you're free to live outside the system, although doing so may require certain sacrifices.

State-supplied healthcare funded by taxes extorted from the masses at gunpoint.  I assume your "other option" is "Pay or don't get treated".  Ignoring the irony that doing so would involve using the hated state-controlled currency, I fail to see that "If you're poor you die" is in any way humane. You /were/ arguing that the state is inhumane, right?

System of law, and means of policing it, again, funded by taxes ...  Again, as a radical left-winger (some way to the left of the Communist party, if truth be told), I've had a certain amount of "contact" with the sharp end of the legal systems of the UK and several other European states.  I somehow managed not to get bothered by the US police.  Oddly enough, I managed not to be tortured, wrongfully imprisoned (or, at least, not for long), or executed.  The courts showed themselves to be decent institutions based on upholding the law, and not on petty political point-scoring. I didn't even get guns waved at me. However, when I've needed them, the police (at least in the UK, France and the US) have shown themselves to be at least helpful, and in certain cases effective and even, in one case (although probably by accident) efficient. Admittedly, my "white" status has meant that I don't have to deal with the levels of police racism my asian friend did, but even that sorry incident had a happy outcome (2 rather unpleasant louts kicked off the 'force).  Even putting aside the questions of how to police it, any society requires a consistent and globally applicable system of law, and I can't see any way of having that without somehow codifying the rules and putting in place some system for applying those rules.  I can't see how such a system, even at some hypothetical "village assizes" level isn't going to end up looking like a piece of state machinery, to be honest.  At some point it's going to end up /punishing/ people, after all.

There's more, obviously, but your eyes are probably glazing over at this point.

Yes, there are unjust and / or outdated laws.  Yes, there are unjust taxes levied, and most tax systems are "porous" such that it's the poor that pay the most.  Yes, there are , have been, and will be states which are utterly despicable.  None of this, however, leads /even me/ to believe that this somehow means that the concept of "state' is universally wrong.

As for a "right to live", no, you don't have one.  You're merely one insignificant cell in what amounts to a cancer on the planet.  You weren't "born into slavery" either.

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #173 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 14:04:46 »
As an aside, you brought up Orwell's "1984" in passing earlier; it's probably worth reading "Homage to Catalonia" to understand *why* he wrote it (and "Animal Farm", amongst other works).  It's also worth reading in order to understand the likely outcome of a truly anarchist state.

Actually I've read both and Homage to Catalonia is on my nightshelf as we speak. I'm very familiar with the anarchy in post-revolutionary Spain and in general Orwell spoke fondly of it. 1984 is a book about totalitarianism - I don't see any connection with Homage to Catalonia there...

Inb4 "pics or it didn't happen" ;) :P

Btw the other books here are good too.

Fiscal policy and state-controlled currencies. Looking at things with the bitter and jaded eye of a 40+ year old radical left-winger, I see fiscal policy outside of the US, being more or less controlled by "the markets", the effectively unregulated (at least at an individual state level) embodiment of of the capitalist zero-sum-game.  Try asking a Greek or a Spaniard how much control their government has on fiscal policy, for example.  And the Euro itself is controlled t an extra-state level; it's not the only one. Even without that outlook, I see no realistic "other option" to a state-controlled fiscal policy, a baseline to relative value.  As for currencies, you are perfectly free to use one, multiple, or none at all.  Bartering still works admirably at a low level, although you may find it hard to barter for a new SUV with eggs laid by your chickens; commerces /will/ insist on using those pesky baselines. That said, you're free to live outside the system, although doing so may require certain sacrifices.

The issues you raise about capitalism are really issues of corporatism; your corporatist/collectivist governments in Europe (just like my own) cannot exist without stealing from other people all the time. Just look at how Germany corrupted Greece; Siemens obtained nearly their entire infrastructure through bribery and now Germany is sucking the very life out of them. How am I free to live outside the system - where? On what land, and how can I claim it as mine?

State-supplied healthcare funded by taxes extorted from the masses at gunpoint.  I assume your "other option" is "Pay or don't get treated".  Ignoring the irony that doing so would involve using the hated state-controlled currency, I fail to see that "If you're poor you die" is in any way humane. You /were/ arguing that the state is inhumane, right?

My other option is don't force people to do anything, period. Will people die? Yes, death is part of life. I don't wish to legitimize it though, nor do I wish to legitimize force on anyone. I'm sure you'd agree that bad things happen with or without a state. I have accepted that life is filled with risk. But poverty and war are creations of statism; both are good for business and that's all a collectivist/corporatist government is ever concerned about: what is good for business. So of course people are kept poor by the current system but I'd like to actually give people a chance to be free to decide how best to take care of themselves because I don't know enough about anyone's individual situations in life, nor do you, to be able to make intelligent decisions about what changes should be made to them. I also don't agree with the belief that everyone wants to be rich, nor that no one wants to be poor. Poverty, by definition, is simply having less than another person, and some people are perfectly fine with that. As I'm sure you're aware, anarcho-socialism or syndicalism or communism all require force to keep people at the same level. I certainly don't believe that's the right way to treat people necessarily; at least when it's forced, it's what I call oppression of everyone. But if it's voluntary, I think it at least has the possibility of being a virtuous association. Same for anarcho-capitalism (or laissez-faire, or however you want to describe free market capitalism).

Even putting aside the questions of how to police it, any society requires a consistent and globally applicable system of law, and I can't see any way of having that without somehow codifying the rules and putting in place some system for applying those rules.  I can't see how such a system, even at some hypothetical "village assizes" level isn't going to end up looking like a piece of state machinery, to be honest.  At some point it's going to end up /punishing/ people, after all.

Yea but my point is that the choice to be involved should be a voluntary one; it shouldn't be forced. For instance, an anarcho-syndicalist factory can exist within voluntaryism, but not the other way around.

There's more, obviously, but your eyes are probably glazing over at this point.

Nope, I'm quite happy to debate with someone who is also well-versed in political theory.

Yes, there are unjust and / or outdated laws.  Yes, there are unjust taxes levied, and most tax systems are "porous" such that it's the poor that pay the most.  Yes, there are , have been, and will be states which are utterly despicable.  None of this, however, leads /even me/ to believe that this somehow means that the concept of "state' is universally wrong.

Well, how do you define statism then? Perhaps we have different definitions.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 February 2013, 14:23:57 by keyboardlover »

Offline hashbaz

  • Grand Ancient One
  • * Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 5057
  • Location: SF Bae Area
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #174 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 14:17:20 »
The fact that I'm alive.

Yes, I agree.  It doesn't follow however that your life should be protected.  Can you justify it to me in objective terms?

Well you'd still be bound by your original obligation wouldn't you? The idea isn't that everyone can do whatever they want; they just self-organize voluntarily.

Bound by whom?  I've left the community and I no longer agree to its rules.  What if I flee to a community which refuses to allow me to be taken by whatever force your community musters?  What if I am wronged by someone who is not part of a community?

Offline sth

  • 2 girls 1 cuprubber
  • Posts: 3438
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #175 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 14:19:54 »
The idea being that, if people do what's best for their wallet anyway, an independent one not corrupted by government has a greater chance of being virtuous in nature.

just droppin' in to say lol @ capitalism in an anarchist context
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #176 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 14:25:26 »
just droppin' in to say lol @ capitalism in an anarchist context

Well to that I'd say lol @ legitimization on a monopoly of force in an anarchist context - because that's what's required in leftist forms of anarchism in order to maintain it as such.

Offline sth

  • 2 girls 1 cuprubber
  • Posts: 3438
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #177 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 14:29:10 »
just droppin' in to say lol @ capitalism in an anarchist context

Well to that I'd say lol @ legitimization on a monopoly of force in an anarchist context - because that's what's required in leftist forms of anarchism in order to maintain it as such.

yeah that's capitalism bro
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #178 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 14:30:05 »
Yes, I agree.  It doesn't follow however that your life should be protected.  Can you justify it to me in objective terms?

I'm a human and human beings have the ability to make conscience decisions whether or not to violate another person's life. Therefore, if a human has the ability to choose whether or not to violate another human's right to life, that other human has a right to defend their life from that other human's conscious choice.

Bound by whom?  I've left the community and I no longer agree to its rules.  What if I flee to a community which refuses to allow me to be taken by whatever force your community musters?  What if I am wronged by someone who is not part of a community?

Well in a voluntary association you'd still have to stay and fulfill your obligation...if you flee I don't see how that's different from if someone does that now. If you're wronged by someone who's not part of the community then it's up to you to figure out how to resolve that...I certainly don't know enough about your individual situation to be able to decide for you. But people DO resolve conflict on their own - and using outside help - voluntarily all the time in life anyway.

yeah that's capitalism bro

I don't think it means what you think it means. How is the concept of free-market capitalism a monopoly on force when there is the ability to have a market for anyone and anything? It's the complete opposite!

I like the way this kid puts it:
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 February 2013, 14:33:11 by keyboardlover »

Offline hashbaz

  • Grand Ancient One
  • * Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 5057
  • Location: SF Bae Area
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #179 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 14:40:49 »
I'm a human and human beings have the ability to make conscience decisions whether or not to violate another person's life. Therefore, if a human has the ability to choose whether or not to violate another human's right to life, that other human has a right to defend their life from that other human's conscious choice.

This is still just an assertion.  Can you explain how conscious decision making implies rights?

Well in a voluntary association you'd still have to stay and fulfill your obligation...if you flee I don't see how that's different from if someone does that now. If you're wronged by someone who's not part of the community then it's up to you to figure out how to resolve that...I certainly don't know enough about your individual situation to be able to decide for you. But people DO resolve conflict on their own - and using outside help - voluntarily all the time in life anyway.

So if my brother is murdered by someone who does not submit to my community, I have no recourse other than to hunt him down and ... kill him, I guess?  And I have no means to discover and prove that he is in fact the murderer, or protection from his family's retribution?

Offline tufty

  • Posts: 347
  • Location: French Alps
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #180 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 14:45:19 »
Even putting aside the questions of how to police it, any society requires a consistent and globally applicable system of law, and I can't see any way of having that without somehow codifying the rules and putting in place some system for applying those rules.  I can't see how such a system, even at some hypothetical "village assizes" level isn't going to end up looking like a piece of state machinery, to be honest.  At some point it's going to end up /punishing/ people, after all.

Yea but my point is that the choice to be involved should be a voluntary one; it shouldn't be forced.
That's not going to work, though, is it?

After all, what's to stop me popping round to your place, killing you, and making off with your goods (or, indeed, claiming the place as my own)?  Your neighbours might moan about it, but all I have to do is say "but I choose not to be involved in your rules" and be well-enough armed to hold them at bay.

Yes, there are unjust and / or outdated laws.  Yes, there are unjust taxes levied, and most tax systems are "porous" such that it's the poor that pay the most.  Yes, there are , have been, and will be states which are utterly despicable.  None of this, however, leads /even me/ to believe that this somehow means that the concept of "state' is universally wrong.
Well, how do you define statism then? Perhaps we have different definitions.
No, I don't think we have different definitions.  I just think your feelings on it are completely and unreconcilably at odds with reality.

I'll try again, without leaving you any wiggle room.

Yes, there are unjust and / or outdated laws.  They are in the minority.  Not all laws are unjust and / or outdated.  On the whole, the system of law where I live is just.
Yes, there are unjust taxes levied.  Again, they are in the minority, and overall the concept and implementation of taxation is more or less just.
Yes, the "golden rule" applies (he who has the gold, makes the rules) at least to taxation and in other areas as well.  This is most certainly not just, but it is extra-state anyway, and would apply in your system as well. It's hard to apply rules at a state level to entities which exist at a level larger than the state itself, but this doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do so.

Oh, yeah.

Poverty, by definition, is simply having less than another person
Bullhockey.

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #181 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 14:47:05 »
This is still just an assertion.  Can you explain how conscious decision making implies rights?

Well rights can be based on voluntary belief or assertion, and that is my belief/assertion.

So if my brother is murdered by someone who does not submit to my community, I have no recourse other than to hunt him down and ... kill him, I guess?  And I have no means to discover and prove that he is in fact the murderer, or protection from his family's retribution?

The NAP, IIRC, says that every individual has the right to protect their lives, the lives of their family, and property. The reality is that I don't know what your sense of justice is, nor anyone else, so I don't see how it is right for me or anyone else to assume what the correct course of justice/action should be in your circumstance. That's really up to you. But if you want my personal opinion, I think that's a horrible thing that happened,but I don't believe that two wrongs make a right.

Offline sth

  • 2 girls 1 cuprubber
  • Posts: 3438
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #182 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 14:51:31 »
I don't think it means what you think it means. How is the concept of free-market capitalism a monopoly on force when there is the ability to have a market for anyone and anything? It's the complete opposite!

I like the way this kid puts it:

'free market capitalism' get on my level dude, what are you even talking about?

that kid sounds like a smug jackass. 'teacher'?!  blaming the government entirely for the financial crisis? i can't even handle this dude, talking about bigger pictures when he goes down to heckle anticapitalists after getting off work. keep on keeping on your system of force and telling yourself that capitalism is compatible with anarchism.  you might as well have just posted a ron paul campaign video.

@hashbaz who says you have to retaliate?
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #183 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 14:53:58 »
That's not going to work, though, is it?

Sure it is.

After all, what's to stop me popping round to your place, killing you, and making off with your goods (or, indeed, claiming the place as my own)?  Your neighbours might moan about it, but all I have to do is say "but I choose not to be involved in your rules" and be well-enough armed to hold them at bay.

Nothing, other than me at my home protecting myself. If you think police stop that from happening now...you oughta visit the city 30 min. from my home sometime. I believe a murder occurs every day there, and they employ a LOT of police. Drive around and you can see them all standing around outside, or getting coffee, doing absolutely nothing to stop crime.

Yes, there are unjust and / or outdated laws.  They are in the minority.  Not all laws are unjust and / or outdated.  On the whole, the system of law where I live is just.
Yes, there are unjust taxes levied.  Again, they are in the minority, and overall the concept and implementation of taxation is more or less just.
Yes, the "golden rule" applies (he who has the gold, makes the rules) at least to taxation and in other areas as well.  This is most certainly not just, but it is extra-state anyway, and would apply in your system as well. It's hard to apply rules at a state level to entities which exist at a level larger than the state itself, but this doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do so.

How is that an argument that leave me with no wiggle room? It's just your opinion on effectiveness of the state based on your life, your outlook and where you live. It's not objective at all! How would a person with a certain amount of wealth make the rules in my society, when my society doesn't even determine what wealth IS? Like I said, in voluntaryism, currency comes about naturally.

Bullhockey.

Check it yourself!

Quote
Poverty is the state of one who lacks a certain amount of material possessions or money.

Do you have a different definition?

'free market capitalism' get on my level dude, what are you even talking about?

More info here, for a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

You should learn the difference between capitalism and corporatism if you wish to make objective criticisms of either.

keep on keeping on your system of force and telling yourself that capitalism is compatible with anarchism.  you might as well have just posted a ron paul campaign video.

But my belief doesn't legitimize force...if you're assuming it does, the burden of proof is now on you to prove as such. As I've said (and as the kid in the video correctly said too) all leftist forms of anarchism violate the NAP because they all require initiation of force in order to maintain society in a certain way.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:00:14 by keyboardlover »

Offline tufty

  • Posts: 347
  • Location: French Alps
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #184 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 14:59:07 »
Quote
Poverty is the state of one who lacks a certain amount of material possessions or money.

Do you have a different definition?
A different one to the one provided by that arbiter of all things "truthyful", Wikipedia?
http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/poverty
Quote
the state of being extremely poor
http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/english/poverty
Quote
the state of being extremely poor
the state of being inferior in quality or insufficient in amount
Yes, I, and close to the entirety of the rest of the world, have a different definition of poverty to you.  The line of what is poverty and what isn't varies, but most people tend to agree that it starts somewhere around the point where you can no longer provide essential things in life.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:00:55 by tufty »

Offline sth

  • 2 girls 1 cuprubber
  • Posts: 3438
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #185 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:00:55 »
hahahaha arguing the definition of poverty with someone who steadfastly refuses to believe that capitalism can be practiced without the use of force on a societal scale?

this combination of points is hilarious
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #186 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:01:44 »
Ok, so then define "extremely poor".  I agree with the definition "the state of being inferior in quality or insufficient in amount" - ok then, inferior to what? Insufficient to what? Is it not relative? Who determines so?

Yes, I, and close to the entirety of the rest of the world, have a different definition of poverty to you.  The line of what is poverty and what isn't varies, but most people tend to agree that it starts somewhere around the point where you can no longer provide essential things in life.

Ok, so now you're redefining it. Ok, that's fine; we can go with that one. I agree that such a state is huge problem...that's why I want to end the belief in government which creates said problem.

hahahaha arguing the definition of poverty with someone who steadfastly refuses to believe that capitalism can be practiced without the use of force on a societal scale?

Prove how if you believe so.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:03:53 by keyboardlover »

Offline sth

  • 2 girls 1 cuprubber
  • Posts: 3438
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #187 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:02:59 »
Prove how if you believe so.

all of history forever
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #188 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:04:07 »

Offline tufty

  • Posts: 347
  • Location: French Alps
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #189 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:04:32 »
all leftist forms of anarchism violate the NAP because they all require initiation of force in order to maintain society in a certain way.
I'd disagree with that, but even assuming it's true, free market capitalism requires the initiation of financial force, which can be every bit as unpleasant to be on the receiving end of as, if not more so than, physical force.

Offline sth

  • 2 girls 1 cuprubber
  • Posts: 3438
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #190 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:06:35 »
Prove how if you believe so.

all of history forever

...is not an argument.

can you find me a realistic example of capitalism not requiring the use of force outside of a hypothetical context?
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #191 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:07:08 »
I'd disagree with that, but even assuming it's true, free market capitalism requires the initiation of financial force, which can be every bit as unpleasant to be on the receiving end of as, if not more so than, physical force.

You're going to have to explain that one - what initiation of "financial" force? I don't think free markets work the way you think free markets work. They come about naturally...there is no initiation of force involved.

can you find me a realistic example of capitalism not requiring the use of force outside of a hypothetical context?

Answering a question with a question? Dude...

You argued that free market capitalism requires a monopoly on violence, now it's up to you to prove as such.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:09:46 by keyboardlover »

Offline sth

  • 2 girls 1 cuprubber
  • Posts: 3438
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #192 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:09:50 »

can you find me a realistic example of capitalism not requiring the use of force outside of a hypothetical context?

Answering a question with a question? Dude...

quit hiding behind the inadequacies of my debate technique and prove me wrong, dude.
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #193 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:10:55 »
quit hiding behind your superior logic and prove me wrong, dude.

So you want me to explain to you how free market capitalism works because you're too lazy to read up on something you're trying to argue against but know nothing about?

Offline sth

  • 2 girls 1 cuprubber
  • Posts: 3438
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #194 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:11:54 »
quit hiding behind your superior logic and prove me wrong, dude.

So you want me to explain to you how free market capitalism works because you're too lazy to read up on something you're trying to argue against but know nothing about?

no, i want you to convince me that free market capitalism can work, period, because i've read plenty about it and it's bull****.
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #195 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:14:06 »
no, i want you to convince me that free market capitalism can work, period, because i've read plenty about it and it's bull****.

If you're so well-versed then, please explain to me how a monopoly on force is required in free-market capitalism. You've already asserted it so I don't think I'm asking too much for you to prove your point. If you can't or don't want to answer the question, just say so, don't ask some other question or talk about something else beside the point to derail it.

Offline hashbaz

  • Grand Ancient One
  • * Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 5057
  • Location: SF Bae Area
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #196 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:14:50 »
Well rights can be based on voluntary belief or assertion, and that is my belief/assertion.

If they are voluntary, and assertions, then they are not objectively real or universal; they are useful conventions.  So you agree with Malphas.

The NAP, IIRC, says that every individual has the right to protect their lives, the lives of their family, and property. The reality is that I don't know what your sense of justice is, nor anyone else, so I don't see how it is right for me or anyone else to assume what the correct course of justice/action should be in your circumstance. That's really up to you. But if you want my personal opinion, I think that's a horrible thing that happened,but I don't believe that two wrongs make a right.

I agree that two wrongs don't make a right, and that killing the (supposed) murderer of my brother won't make my family whole.  Putting the revenge aspect aside, if there is no recourse for murder and theft, then murder and theft will increase.  If there are no legitimate means to punish criminals that are not part of my voluntary community, then retaliatory violence and theft will also increase.  War and chaos and social instability seem likely in a scenario like this.

@hashbaz who says you have to retaliate?

I don't -- but see my response to KL above.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:17:42 by hashbaz »

Offline sth

  • 2 girls 1 cuprubber
  • Posts: 3438
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #197 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:19:49 »
no, i want you to convince me that free market capitalism can work, period, because i've read plenty about it and it's bull****.

If you're so well-versed then, please explain to me how a monopoly on force is required in free-market capitalism. You've already asserted it so I don't think I'm asking too much for you to prove your point. If you can't or don't want to answer the question, just say so, don't ask some other question or talk about something else beside the point to derail it.

i am not talking about how a monopoly on force is required in free-market capitalism. you can say that all you want. it's like saying lemonade is required in candyland. when i asked you to find me an example, i wanted to know if you actually knew of any 'truly' free-market systems that ever had any lasting success.

the point is the concept of a fully free market capitalist system is fallacious and incapable of sustaining a society of any meaningful size without corruption. that's how it always has been and if you stay stuck within a capitalist framework of economic theory, that's how it always will be.
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline keyboardlover

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #198 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:20:38 »
If they are voluntary, and assertions, then they are not objectively real or universal; they are useful conventions.  So you agree with Malphas.

Well no, Malphas asserted that they must be granted by a governing body.

I agree that two wrongs don't make a right, and that killing the (supposed) murderer of my brother won't make my family whole.  Putting the revenge aspect aside, if there is no recourse for murder and theft, then murder and theft will increase.  If there are no legitimate means to punish criminals that are not part of my voluntary community, then retaliatory violence and theft from the outside will also increase.  War and chaos and social instability seem likely in a scenario like this.

There isn't "no recourse"; appropriate recourse is at the discretion of the individual. But in a voluntaryist world you can't assume that these evils will just naturally "multiply"...don't forget that things like education and force please a huge part in how we're raised and grow up and what we believe as adults. Most voluntaryists are proponents of things like peaceful leadership by example, peaceful education and peaceful parenting. Things like that have the power to completely change a society one association at a time.

Offline Malphas

  • Posts: 247
Re: Debunking statism: so easy a caveman can do it
« Reply #199 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:25:43 »
You realise how utterly naive and fallacious that sort of utopian thinking is? All the proponents of every extremist system in history have used that argument, that everything would magically work out. Look at Soviet Communism and how that turned out for the most obvious example.