Sales and resales of keycaps for profit

[IPT]

Well if you look at my sell thread you can see there was lots of threadcrapping with me trying to sell my Bose headphones. Personally I don't thinkbthats constructive at all

Yeah degrading someone's product they are trying to sell is definitely unacceptable.

people should know that those headphones have a sound signature that many people really dislike. however i didnt read the thread so i dont know how bad it got.

i pretty much agree with everything lysol is saying. moving to a constructive classifieds section would help to stabilize prices and maybe return some expensive items to reasonable costs over time.

as far as a free market goes... GH is not a free market if you cannot say anything you want in somebody's thread.
if you advocate for 'no threadcrapping' policies then you are absolutely promoting market regulation, which aren't a bad thing, but the cognitive dissonance going on is astounding -- or people are just being honest. being that we're a big bunch of nerdy nerds i'm gonna have to unfortunately assume that the latter is more often the case.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33499.msg742390.msg#742390
How is that post constructive? Just wondering if you think posts Luke those are OK in a classified. A few other back and forth b4 he said he agrees the Bose headset at least feels decent. So it was the usual Bose bashing for no reason.

[Krogenar]

as far as a free market goes... GH is not a free market if you cannot say anything you want in somebody's thread.

No offense, but, really, really wrong. You're describing an ABSOLUTELY free market. It's a bit like saying "Unless I can sell my baby to someone else, it's not truly a free market." We can enjoy free speech, for example, without allowing people to perjure themselves in court, issue death threats, bomb threats, or proselytize for Jesus at 2 AM in a residential neighborhood. So yeah, let people post unwanted comments in a sell thread, but the comments must be germane to the sale. Some examples:

"This seller sucks, he's a liar and a cheat and sells broken keyboards! He is also HITLER!" = THREADCRAP
"I bought from him, and he sent me the item very poorly packaged. It came damaged and he wouldn't give me a price break, or allow a return." (reference link) = PRODUCTIVE COMMENT.
"I bought this keycap two years ago for $35 bucks -- $100 for a CC is way too much, don't pay it." = (should be a PM)

Moderators will have to determine what constitutes bad threadcrap from productive commentary. If it contains a personal attack, that's automatic threadcrap in my book.
We can have a free market without allowing for threats, namecalling, etc. Just because you have a right does not make it an absolute right, with no responsibilities attached. The mods are well within their rights to demand that public interactions be civil and on-topic. Someone's being a '****' or a 'douche' is not on-topic. If some people are just too childish to get it, they should find another forum, and no one shed a tear for them. I would institute a kind of karma system -- namecalling, ad hoc attacks, etc. they earn you demerits until eventually you get a temporary ban. Go through that process three times and you earned yourself a permaban. Demerits should be viewable by all, so that everything is on the level, and people can see what constitutes namecalling, insults, etc. and what does not.

It's not wrong to insist on a certain level of civility.

I don't support a pricing index as it would be a method of price control, which would be a mistake.

[Alessandro]

as far as a free market goes... GH is not a free market if you cannot say anything you want in somebody's thread.

No offense, but, really, really wrong. You're describing an ABSOLUTELY free market. It's a bit like saying "Unless I can sell my baby to someone else, it's not truly a free market." We can enjoy free speech, for example, without allowing people to perjure themselves in court, issue death threats, bomb threats, or proselytize for Jesus at 2 AM in a residential neighborhood. So yeah, let people post unwanted comments in a sell thread, but the comments must be germane to the sale. Some examples:

"This seller sucks, he's a liar and a cheat and sells broken keyboards! He is also HITLER!" = THREADCRAP
"I bought from him, and he sent me the item very poorly packaged. It came damaged and he wouldn't give me a price break, or allow a return." (reference link) = PRODUCTIVE COMMENT.
"I bought this keycap two years ago for $35 bucks -- $100 for a CC is way too much, don't pay it." = (should be a PM)

Moderators will have to determine what constitutes bad threadcrap from productive commentary. If it contains a personal attack, that's automatic threadcrap in my book.
We can have a free market without allowing for threats, namecalling, etc. Just because you have a right does not make it an absolute right, with no responsibilities attached. The mods are well within their rights to demand that public interactions be civil and on-topic. Someone's being a '****' or a 'douche' is not on-topic. If some people are just too childish to get it, they should find another forum, and no one shed a tear for them. I would institute a kind of karma system -- namecalling, ad hoc attacks, etc. they earn you demerits until eventually you get a temporary ban. Go through that process three times and you earned yourself a permaban. Demerits should be viewable by all, so that everything is on the level, and people can see what constitutes namecalling, insults, etc. and what does not.

It's not wrong to insist on a certain level of civility.

I don't support a pricing index as it would be a method of price control, which would be a mistake.

That.

[Krogenar]

That.

Thanks!

There should also be some way for demerits (but not the lists of reasons why they received them) slowly vanishes over time. This way every forum member has a history of their interactions with the moderating staff. The demerits might fade away after a set period of time (a year, I don't know) but the history will always remain. This would make it easy for any mod to step in and see the history of what transpired, the actual statements made that incurred the demerit. An example of looking at fictional user 'ArchThreadCrapper':

Date                 Mod Name               Action                      Forum Link                    Statement
11/14/2011 -    Mkawa                    Demerit Earned       http://bleh                    "Those are the gayest headphones I've ever seen. You would have to pay ME to get me to take them."
12/1/2011        Hashbaz                  Warning                  http://blah                    "Gay people should go die. Stupid ***s!"
1/30/2012        Mkawa                    Demerit Earned        http://bloobity                "Seller is Hitler -- bought that sh!t a year ago for $35, now selling for $350? F$%-ing capitalist @ssclown!"
2/3/2012          Hashbaz                  Demerit - Temp Ban  http://blippity                "Tell MKawa to get bent!"

There it is. Everyone can read it. Mods can see that there's a pattern of problematic behavior, and so can forum users. And since there is a system in place for temporary and eventual perma-banning, no one can act surprised or shocked. This keeps Mods from overreacting knowing that people will be able to see precisely why they did what they did. The answer is more and better communication. Excuse my crappy formatting of the list. There would be a score showing you how close you were to being banned. Again, so no fake shock and users have some sort of warning on when they have crossed the line. Maybe make their score visible to other users so people can be wary of threadcrappers. I would institute some sort of positive karma system as well, so useful comments can earn an uptick. Show that under the user's name, so everyone can spot the good actors from the bad actors.

[Turbo Slaab]

That.

Thanks!

There should also be some way for demerits (but not the lists of reasons why they received them) slowly vanishes over time. This way every forum member has a history of their interactions with the moderating staff. The demerits might fade away after a set period of time (a year, I don't know) but the history will always remain. This would make it easy for any mod to step in and see the history of what transpired, the actual statements made that incurred the demerit. An example of looking at fictional user 'ArchThreadCrapper':

Date                 Mod Name               Action                      Forum Link                    Statement
11/14/2011 -    Mkawa                    Demerit Earned       http://bleh                    "Those are the gayest headphones I've ever seen. You would have to pay ME to get me to take them."
12/1/2011        Hashbaz                  Warning                  http://blah                    "Gay people should go die. Stupid ***s!"
1/30/2012        Mkawa                    Demerit Earned        http://bloobity                "Seller is Hitler -- bought that sh!t a year ago for $35, now selling for $350? F$%-ing capitalist @ssclown!"
2/3/2012          Hashbaz                  Demerit - Temp Ban  http://blippity                "Tell MKawa to get bent!"

There it is. Everyone can read it. Mods can see that there's a pattern of problematic behavior, and so can forum users. And since there is a system in place for temporary and eventual perma-banning, no one can act surprised or shocked. This keeps Mods from overreacting knowing that people will be able to see precisely why they did what they did. The answer is more and better communication. Excuse my crappy formatting of the list. There would be a score showing you how close you were to being banned. Again, so no fake shock and users have some sort of warning on when they have crossed the line. Maybe make their score visible to other users so people can be wary of threadcrappers. I would institute some sort of positive karma system as well, so useful comments can earn an uptick. Show that under the user's name, so everyone can spot the good actors from the bad actors.

This is a great gif!








the idea is good too

[Krogenar]

Thanks for the feedback.

I've been looking for a Simple Machines forum version of this idea, which I've seen elsewhere. I found one, but it didn't really have a lot of features:
http://wiki.simplemachines.org/smf/Warning
It does allow, however, for something less upsetting than a ban -- if a user receives too many warning points, their posts could be approved by a moderator before posting.

http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=71992  -- This is vBulletin's Advanced Warning System (AWS). Some features.
 In that case, this warning system, allows you to issue a warning to the member who commited the offence. The warning has some points associated with it, as well as a period over which it is valid. When a member gathers enough points, he is banned from your forums, for a predefined period of time. That's mostly it, but below, you can find a short list of features:

Full warning system with:

==================================================================================================
- post- and non-post-related warnings
- hierarchical warning schema
- hidden or real warners
- customizable maximum warning points
- automatically bans members who reached the maximum warning points
- customizable ban days
- customizable ban user group and permanent ban user group
- customizable restore user group, where users are restored after they get unbanned
- customizable option for who can see the warning level of the members
- automatically issued warnings for posts which contain censored words
- automatically issued warnings for private messages which contain censored words
- supports incremental banning periods
- supports multiple warnings for the same post
- warned members are notified either by Private Message or e-mail when they are warned and when one of the warnings they have received is either deleted or expired
- maintains historical listings of issued warnings (even if deleted or expired)
- customizable warning types
- each warning type has predefined warning points associated with it
- each warning type has predefined maturity period, after which it is automatically deleted
- reports for admin, mods and members
- cron job included to automatically remove matured warnings
- uses vBulletin's cron job, to automatically unban banned users
- all options are setable in your AdminCP
- user warning points and number of bans viewable in your AdminCP User Manager.
- statistics show warning per type, warnings per warner, bans per user.
- Allows you to warn a user from your AdminCP/User Manager.
- Large "Warn" sign, in posts which have received a warning, for mods, supermods and admins, to easily distinguish those posts.
- Ability to remove user's avatar, signature or usage of the Private Messaging system, depending on the warning points he has collected.
- Supports non-standard admins, supermods and mods user groups.
- Allows you to save a copy of the warning send to the warned user, in a predefined forum.
- Allows you to issue "Alerts" (warnings without warning points, for first-time offenders)
- Allows you to add private or public notes for a user, either post-specific or not. Notes appear in the postbit, above each user's message.
==================================================================================================

That's the system I think would really work -- make it easier for mod, users, everyone to see the writing on the wall, full transparency.

[keymaster]

The full gif is better!

[IvanIvanovich]

I like 21 Jumpstreet. It's that scene where Officer Hanson slaps Kenny Weckerly.

[Alessandro]

I like 21 Jumpstreet. It's that scene where Officer Hanson slaps Kenny Weckerly.

Oh god yes!

We also got forced to watch The Crucible in my english GCSE class, the only part of it I remember was Reverend Paris giving Abigail the most epic *****slap!

[Lanx]

wow, i barely remember jonny depp, robin givens, the fat white guy and the mullet haired asian guy.(he did have a mullet right?) ah 21 jump street such a good multiracial show, i didn't even notice it was multiracial, which is good, until years later, whats the only other show that was as multiracial during the 80's? power rangers? but that's the early 90's (and that was really the american slice of life parts)

[sth]

as far as a free market goes... GH is not a free market if you cannot say anything you want in somebody's thread.

No offense, but, really, really wrong. You're describing an ABSOLUTELY free market.

yes, i certainly am, which is what many other members seem to advocate for (though i clearly do not). i don't normally use the 'absolutely' qualifier but i also often forget other people have restrictive definitions of what constitutes a free market. if there are restrictions, then it is not truly free, just as speech in america is not truly free by your examples. that said, curtailing 'freedom' is not always a bad thing when organization is required in a hierarchical system... besides arguing about freedom on a privately controlled message board is... silly

i like the idea of a props system more than a demerits system... it encourages more positivity and allows the members to draw attention to people who are helpful, creative, funny, or whatever while leaving the moderators to deal with posts that detract from the topic at hand or are clearly flames.

and most of the things you detailed in your later post just seem excessive. i'd rather see a shift in member participation and contributions than set up a system of privileges to be removed.

[Krogenar]

as far as a free market goes... GH is not a free market if you cannot say anything you want in somebody's thread.

No offense, but, really, really wrong. You're describing an ABSOLUTELY free market.

yes, i certainly am, which is what many other members seem to advocate for (though i clearly do not). i don't normally use the 'absolutely' qualifier but i also often forget other people have restrictive definitions of what constitutes a free market.

'Restrictive definition of what constitutes a free market'? Yes, these concepts should be restrained by the realities of human interaction. Again, you can have a free market (not absolutely free) without opening the doors completely to the most negative expressions of that freedom. Yes, we have free speech in America, but no so free that I can make death-threats or bomb threats. As they drag those kinds of people away in hand-cuffs they probably scream, "I was only expressing my right to free speech!" and only an idiot would agree that their speech was protected by the Constitution. Does that mean Americans don't have free speech, because they are not allowed to make bomb threats? No, it doesn't -- it just means that sensible restrictions of free speech are acceptable.

if there are restrictions, then it is not truly free, just as speech in america is not truly free by your examples.

Arguing semantics with me is probably a mistake (this libertarian is still waiting to be 'eaten for breakfast', by the way). Speech in America is not absolutely free, because that would be incredibly stupid, as my examples have proven to every rational person. Speech in America is as free as it should be. The trick, the trouble, is determining where your rights begin and where mine end.

To switch back to economic freedom (a 'free market') I would say that the mods would have the right to ban someone for egregiously fraudulent behavior. If a seller engages in fraudulent conduct (photos that hide defects from products, etc.) then they would have the right to intervene. Price gouging is not fraudulent conduct, it's just bad conduct, conduct that can and should be handled by PMs between members, or just common sense.

that said, curtailing 'freedom' is not always a bad thing when organization is required in a hierarchical system... besides arguing about freedom on a privately controlled message board is... silly

Ok, so you agree with me, but now think discussing free markets and their limitations is 'silly' (inferring that I am silly for taking them seriously) then why participate in them at all? I do it because I have a deep character flaw that forces me (when confronted by senseless socialistic statements) to grind those arguments into powder. "To see stupid ideas driven before me, to hear the lamentations of their proponents, that is best in life." It's silly, I know.

i like the idea of a props system more than a demerits system... it encourages more positivity and allows the members to draw attention to people who are helpful, creative, funny, or whatever while leaving the moderators to deal with posts that detract from the topic at hand or are clearly flames.

I would like to see a karma or 'props' system as well, with some limitations. Carrots for users, sticks for mods. The karma/props system should also show which specific statements were responsible for the up-rate. Again, it shows people what constitutes good behavior, so they can emulate it.

and most of the things you detailed in your later post just seem excessive. i'd rather see a shift in member participation and contributions than set up a system of privileges to be removed.

All the features together might seem excessive, but that's for owners to decide and discover; not all would have to be implemented. Having been on a few forums and even being 'warned' a few times, I think the problem with banning is that it only makes defiance worse, and hurts the community at large because they wonder if the rules were enforced fairly. A warning system lets people know by degrees, and reduces the "Martyrdom by Banishment" phenomena. By showing the warnings, everyone is shown what actually happened, and how that user was warned, warned again, and then finally banned. A more granular system would be better -- even a temporary ban seriously bruises the ego. Notice in the gif I posted -- banning only makes the user more defiant in some cases, requiring a followup b!tchslap permaban. A public warning system kills all the gossip, and provides examples of what constitutes unacceptable behavior for both users and mods.

I completely think that sell threads should be open for free commenting, but that the comments should meet a certain minimum criteria for politeness and relevance. That is not too much to ask.

[longweight]

The mods have been actively discussing classifieds policy over the past couple of days.  It's true that we've been unclear and inconsistent at times; we're working on it.

charge them! every wts/wtt needs moderator approval
a $2 paypal posting fee
and then 5% to 10% of all profits afterwards will again go to paypal, if not, then they are banned from making/requesting another wts/wtt thread and Marked

GH isn't a free no fee ebay! but it's been used as such, and it seems that we're just getting more mods and more admins, just so that they can monitor the selling forum.

CHARGE ppl!

Uhmmmmmmm yeaaaaaaaa, **** that. I'd move to another site

No, it would just move all transactions to PMs and there'd just be a forum full of WTB threads.

oh even better, less junk to deal with,
charge 2$ paypal fee to list a wtb

I don't think you understand how it would work, so many sales are via PM already and the fee would only push more sales to PM.

[Lanx]

good, then that's less for the mods to do, and when a "pm" transaction goes sour, no one to blame but the two parties.

[longweight]

There is no one else to blame no matter how the sale happens.

[SmallFry]

Seriously guys.

Exactly. So, perhaps, when the situation calms down, things will be more clear. All this drama makes me sick. We just need to get along, not fight... :/
This site is about keyboards, not capitalism or commercialism, not about the Terms of Service, not about whether we should threadcrap or not. This site is for keyboards.
I am here in a community to help others, enjoy myself and maybe buy a few things here or there (or trade for them ). When you live in a real life community, do you get told not to make money or what you should do with what is yours? Do you get told not to walk in the market and have ambient conversations with your friends? Just food for thought, please don't pick me apart and answer my questions. They are rhetorical.

[longweight]

What has that got to do with this?

[SmallFry]

Quit complaining. Buy what you want. Sell what you wish. This site is for keyboards, not worrying about who's making money and who isn't.

[Krogenar]

Quit complaining. Buy what you want. Sell what you wish. This site is for keyboards, not worrying about who's making money and who isn't.

Well said.

[Alessandro]

A million times that Smallfry, there's a few of us that have always said it, but the point never seems to get across.

Listen to the Smallfry!

[sth]

[jesus h christ what do you do]

please stop arguing with me even when you admit we're talking about the same thing then.
nothing i was talking about was directed at you or your boring political/economic opinions; it's kind of obnoxious how much time you spend responding to my stupid glib troll posts as if i was physically standing in front of you threatening your freedom to price gouge people and not give a **** about the community of people that are trying to have FUN with this hobby (because **** all that hippie garbage, i want my rich boy toys, amirite).
take this as a 'forfeit' of some kind if you need to, because i really don't want to spend my time in 'discussions' that you try to start and then run into the ground with the same boring rhetoric that you know i am not going to agree with you on. i don't know you, and i don't really like the person you present yourself to be on this forum, and i don't owe you anything for all the time you spend trying to pick apart what i'm saying.

[keyboardlover]

There are two types of Geekhackers.

Those who want to be left alone, and those who, unfortunately, simply will not leave them alone.

[noisyturtle]

There are two types of Geekhackers.

Those who have CC's, and those who, unfortunately, do not.

FTFY

[singaporean123]

what if the profit margin is capped at a certain percentage? like double the cost you bought it for? does tht still piss people off a heck load

[jdcarpe]

Those of us who frown upon "flipping" of keyboards and their accessories will always hate it when someone buys something cheap, then turns around and quickly sells it for profit. You're making money off the people you're supposed to be helping in this hobby.

Those who have a strong desire to acquire rare or "in demand" items will always be willing to pay more than they should for them. Even if they are aware of the "fair value" of the item. When someone has something they don't, and they desire it, they will pay whatever it costs to obtain it.

These two factions co-exist here at Geekhack. Mostly peacefully. The former with loud voices, trying to stick up for the "poor college student" or starving artist. The latter quietly making deals through PMs, etc. That's how it has been, and will continue to be. We need the "non profit" types so that there is balance kept in the community, and this forum doesn't turn into solely a marketplace where everything is sold to the highest bidder. We need the "keyboard envy" types to keep the hobby fresh and interesting. Their dollars drive innovation.

To be fair, I have been (and continue to be) a bit of both here. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

/thread

[keyboardlover]

There are two types of Geekhackers.

Those who have CC's, and those who, unfortunately, do not.

FTFY

Hey, if GHers who don't have clickclacks don't like it, they can leave.

Sorry but I don't feel bad for those people...at all. You guys act as if it's your "right" to be able to own a freaking fancy piece of plastic. Who cares? Vote with your dollar and don't buy it. That's what I do.

[RougeR]

There are three types of Geekhackers.

Those who have CC's, and those who, unfortunately, do not. and those who think they are tacky piece of plastic so dont want one.

FTFY

FTFY

[Krogenar]

[sth rambling rant]
... yeah, ok.

what if the profit margin is capped at a certain percentage? like double the cost you bought it for? does tht still piss people off a heck load

By capping profits, you would just be acquiescing to the idea that making a profit off this hobby is morally wrong. Where we draw the line doesn't matter if drawing such a line would hurt the hobby -- and it would hurt the hobby. Besides, price controls would just make people go elsewhere, where they can sell for whatever price they prefer -- or they will go to PMs. Or eBay.

jdcarpe -- I have no problem with people who donate or are otherwise altruistic being in the forum, or the hobby. That's great -- but charity loses its meaning when it is enforced.