Author Topic: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated  (Read 4812 times)

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Offline tricheboars

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Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 01:23:03 »
I dont like that the Caps Lock gets such great real estate. What the hell is it doing over there all big like that? Who the hell does he think he is?



I also think that Happy Hacking's layout is broken, but holy **** did they get the Ctrl and Caps Lock switch right. Ctrl is useful. It deserves to be big. It deserves to be near the pinky. Oh sweet Ctrl+F, you could be so much closer. So **** the caps lock!

who's with me? who is going to switch em around with me?  who wants to kick it wu-tang with me?

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Offline The_Ed

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 01:34:24 »
Caps-lock is right above my pinky, and Control is right below my pinky. How does switching them get the Control key any closer to your pinky? I think they are perfect just where they are.
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Offline hashbaz

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 01:37:48 »
I'm with you in spirit -- Caps Lock is a Win key for me.

Offline The_Ed

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 01:44:02 »
...But it's so much easier to hit control just where it is... You'd have to turn your hand 45 degrees to the right to hit Ctrl+V if you swapped them...
Reaper "frelled" me... Twice... Did he "frell" you too?... *brohug*
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Offline daerid

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 01:49:02 »
^^^ This is a joke, right? Please tell me it's a joke.

I've had CTRL and CAPS switched for years, and I could never go back. My hands would actually separate from my body and take a hike.

The amount of muscular contraction necessary to hit the control key where it is on a standard ANSI board is just ridiculous. I seriously think that placement was chosen by Marquis de Sade

Offline rknize

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 01:49:35 »
I almost never use caps lock, so I have to agree.  I make them both control (left+right shift activates caps lock).  Some combinations are more comfortable in the ANSI position and some in the "unix" position, including those that are combined with shift.

Edit: If you type "properly", I can see ANSI position being of less use.  I have horrible typing habits.  My hands fly all over the place, so I like using them both.
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Offline daerid

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 01:50:52 »
I make them both control (left+right shift activates caps lock).

Genius. How do you do that exactly? AutoHotkey?

Offline rknize

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 01:52:02 »
I use a Linux-based OS, so it's just a tweak in the config for X.  Many desktops, like Ubuntu/GNOME, have an option to do exactly this as well.
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Offline daerid

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 01:53:21 »
Ahhh that makes sense.

Offline The_Ed

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 01:54:06 »
^^^ This is a joke, right? Please tell me it's a joke.

I type in "gamer" position...

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Offline jabar

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 01:55:58 »
Ducky Ctrl<>Caps DIP switch makes me happy.
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Offline daerid

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 01:58:19 »
I type in "gamer" position...

I assume that means your fingers are centered around WASD? If so, that makes sense. I'm a traditional home-row touch-typist, so hitting control where it normally is puts my hands through some rather uncomfortable acrobatics, especially since my left pinky likes to stay extended. I pretty much never hit the right control key unless I'm using the arrow keys.

Offline rknize

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 01:58:34 »
Ducky Ctrl<>Caps DIP switch makes me happy.

I've never taken advantage of that feature on Pokers and so forth because it drives me crazy having caps lock anywhere that is easily accessible.  If it were on L-Ctrl, I'd be hitting it all the time.  It should be over by scroll lock, frankly.
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Offline daerid

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 02:03:59 »
On Windows I just use SharpKeys to remap capslock to control. Bam, problem solved, and I get an extra control key.

Offline jabar

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 02:19:39 »
I've never taken advantage of that feature on Pokers and so forth because it drives me crazy having caps lock anywhere that is easily accessible.  If it were on L-Ctrl, I'd be hitting it all the time.  It should be over by scroll lock, frankly.
Sounds like you could benefit from HHKB training  :))
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Offline tricheboars

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 11:40:23 »
I am going to get custom keycaps made to make the switch official on all my boards.

except my ****ing work rubber dome piece of **** (I maybe a little emotional since they won't let me bring in a mechanical).

caps lock is so dumb. I am glad most of you agree.
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Offline ishumprod

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 11:43:24 »
i remapped the left ctrl in place with the caps lock ages ago, and i totally agree with the fact that caps lock isn't well placed at all
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Offline daerid

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 11:54:45 »
(I maybe a little emotional since they won't let me bring in a mechanical).

Is it the noise? If not, what other possible justification for this could they have? Seems kind of retarded.

Offline FoxWolf1

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 12:25:52 »
I think it'd be neat if Function went in the Caps Lock space, and then the media functions would go on the keys around WASD the way that Noppoo has them on some of their keyboards; that way, you could use them with one hand and without disrupting hand position.

As for Caps Lock, the current ANSI position for it results in an unfavorable ratio of accidental to intended presses, which suggests that it ought to be moved to a lower-traffic position, or even onto the function layer.
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Offline Surnia

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 12:50:30 »
Unfortunately I'm one of the few in this world that still needs Capslock (AS400, and formatting requirements for the stuff I enter), and its present position's easy enough to tick on or off quickly between entry fields. Otherwise I'm also one who sits around the WASD cluster normally, an the control key as-is just requires a slight shift down. Undo and cut options are also easier with the lower control key.

I'm sure I could adapt to a custom layout pretty quick, but the trouble becomes when I shift between boards (I'm not always at my own terminal).. If I'm entering something on a standard board after using a custom layout, it'll cause more trouble than its worth (looking at the Minila from Filco, that would just wreak havoc on everything...). To make the entire industry switch over would take a looong time.

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Offline iri

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 12:58:55 »
antiquated, you say?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Adm3aimage.jpg







all of my machines have their control key to the left of "a" key, regardless of what's written on the keycap.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

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Offline daerid

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 13:30:19 »
The main reason I like having Control key left of the A key is that it allows me to make the vast majority of my CTRL+Key combinations without moving most of my fingertips from the home row, or moving my left wrist at all. Much more ergonomic.

Offline Burz

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 18:10:45 »
Much about ANSI boards is antiquated. The horizontal staggering is the worst.

I am considering turning my CAPS and Enter into Shifts, and the Shifts into Ctrls.

Right now, though, I've got CAPS as Backspace because of Colemak... and I do like it there.


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Offline ksm123

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 18:39:50 »
@Burz: I agree that standard layout, designed for mechanical typewriters, is outdated.

On the other hand I  do not see viable alternative for physical keyboard layout standardization. Maltron, Kinesis Advantage and Truly Ergonomic look good on paper but they all are different from each other. They are also too expensive. It is just a keyboard but after shipping and VAT the cheapest of them would cost me roughly a third of my monthly wages. I'm also afraid that all of this layouts are patent encumbered, so cheaper alternatives won't be available in Europe. And one more thing about physical layout: To use keyboard efficiently, I need to build "muscle memory" for it. To do that I need the same layout and switches in home and at the office. Unfortunately I cannot count on my employer to provide me with ergonomic keyboard.

Logical layout is somewhat easier, changing it won't cost me anything but my productivity, but I'm used to working with vi editor (nowadays in jVi for Netbeans incarnation). I can't imagine switching to another editor, or loosing all this muscle memory of handy shortcuts in VI.

Of-course, I swap Ctrl <-> Caps Lock on every computer I use regularly, its just a UNIX thing to do :-) .
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 March 2013, 18:41:53 by ksm123 »

Offline joules

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 18:54:56 »
Much about ANSI boards is antiquated. The horizontal staggering is the worst.

I am considering turning my CAPS and Enter into Shifts, and the Shifts into Ctrls.

Right now, though, I've got CAPS as Backspace because of Colemak... and I do like it there.
Great idea man. Worth trying out.
I usually end up hitting SHIFT with the nail, annoying.
The question is does one hit ENTER more than L_SHIFT?
I know I do.

Offline lazerpointer

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 19:52:46 »
First of all HHKB layout is awesome after you get used to how the arrow keys and six pack work. I also have my CTRL and Caps Lock switched. It helps immensely.

Second of all... I have to agree about caps lock. Being so close to shift, it can be easily toggled on and off by accident. It's just the simple fact that you end up kind of yelling at people for no particular reason. "Oh sorry caps lock" almost every time.

Edit;
How is it "antiquated" to have horizontal staggering? It seems like this is for ergonomic reasons rather than style.
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Offline DavinDidIt

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 19:55:22 »
I also think that Happy Hacking's layout is broken

You poor, misguided soul.
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Offline Amarok

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 19:58:58 »
I just recently switched mine and I looooooooooooooooove it.
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Offline hashbaz

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 13 March 2013, 23:12:23 »
I had Caps Lock mapped to Escape for a long time for use in vim. Highly recommended.

Offline ksm123

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 14 March 2013, 04:46:44 »
@Flip:

I think that "horizontal staggering" is antiquated. It was designed to facilitate building mechanical typewriters.

There are many  layouts that should be more comfortable than classical typewriter.
I would exclude misguided A-Shape from a4tech, 'Q' ought to be in line with 'A' and 'Z', but please take a look at Truly Ergonomic, Maltron or Kinesis Advantage. All these keyboard facilitate typing with straight wrists and minimize sideways finger movement.

Unfortunately, proper 3D layout with mechanical switches is hard to manufacture. Think about manufacturing non flat PCB, later on you can't wave solder non flat board therefore they cost as much as they cost. I wonder, whether 3D printing will come to rescue, at least for hobbyists, but its for the future.

Offline Grim Fandango

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 14 March 2013, 05:04:11 »
Actually this gave me the idea to also switch ctrl and Caps Lock. I hardly ever use it. In fact, I do not remember the last time I used Caps Lock for anything.
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Offline iri

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #31 on: Thu, 14 March 2013, 05:37:13 »
I had Caps Lock mapped to Escape for a long time for use in vim. Highly recommended.
so ctrl-[ is inconvenient for you?
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline Burz

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 14 March 2013, 08:06:59 »
Much about ANSI boards is antiquated. The horizontal staggering is the worst.

I am considering turning my CAPS and Enter into Shifts, and the Shifts into Ctrls.

Right now, though, I've got CAPS as Backspace because of Colemak... and I do like it there.
Great idea man. Worth trying out.
I usually end up hitting SHIFT with the nail, annoying.
The question is does one hit ENTER more than L_SHIFT?
I know I do.

I think they are close to being the same. If you think about paragraphs and how 2 or more sentences will begin with Shift, and then any proper nouns as well, people need to use both Shift keys semi-frequently. For getting around between entry fields I use tab and arrows and even space (for 'clicking' buttons on forms) far more than Enter.

Enter also isn't used often within the stream of one's typing; more often before or after something like a phrase or sentence.
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Offline daerid

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Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #33 on: Thu, 14 March 2013, 08:40:59 »
I had Caps Lock mapped to Escape for a long time for use in vim. Highly recommended.
so ctrl-[ is inconvenient for you?

I used the same setup for a long time (caps -> escape), and when I finally switched to control, I couldn't believe the difference. I keep forgetting about actual escape and expecting Ctrl+[ to work everywhere
« Last Edit: Thu, 14 March 2013, 12:09:42 by daerid »

Offline cheebs

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #34 on: Thu, 14 March 2013, 09:47:57 »
Very pleased with this thread :)

Offline hashbaz

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Re: Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #35 on: Thu, 14 March 2013, 21:59:50 »
so ctrl-[ is inconvenient for you?

It's less convenient than Caps Lock, yes. My philosophy is to avoid modifiers where possible, which is one of the reasons I like vim so much.

Offline metalliqaz

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #36 on: Thu, 14 March 2013, 22:46:05 »
caps lock needs to be close by SO YOU CAN YELL AT PEOPLE

Offline oneproduct

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #37 on: Thu, 14 March 2013, 23:43:57 »
I still think that caps lock is best replaced with backspace. Backspace is likely far more used than most other non-printing keys with the exception of perhaps shift and is used both when typing "plain text" like emails and forum posts whereas control is not used nearly as much in such contexts. It's also further away than control is from the home position so you have a greater reduction in distance by moving it than by moving control.

And if you can justify moving your right hand from the home row to reach backspace, you could certainly justify moving it to right control.
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Offline daerid

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #38 on: Thu, 14 March 2013, 23:57:45 »
Disagreed. Having backspace so easily available leads to both accidental backspaces, and sloppy typing. Most typing is a forward only motion, whereas backspace breaks that motion. I want the backspace action to be a break in the normal flow.

Also, it really depends on your use case. The vast majority of my typing on a day to day basis is either coding or WoW. Both make much heavier usage of CTRL than backspace.

YMMV tho.

Quote
And if you can justify moving your right hand from the home row to reach backspace, you could certainly justify moving it to right control.

Not for me. It really depends on your hands. I have really long fingers and hit backspace with my right ring finger. I don't have to move my right hand at all to hit it, just slightly extend the fingers of my right hand.

However, curling my left finger down to reach the standard control position forces my left hand into an uncomfortable shape, and also makes my left hand to want to move from where it's anchored at the home row.

Since switching my caps to control, I can do 99%+ of my typing without moving my palms or wrists at all.
« Last Edit: Fri, 15 March 2013, 00:01:02 by daerid »

Offline oneproduct

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 15 March 2013, 00:27:50 »
I don't buy into the accidental backspaces so much (when typing at least, though perhaps understandable for gaming). 'A' is a home position key where your hand should be sitting comfortably and ready to press the key beneath it with familiarity. Do you hit ' (apostrophe) by mistake when typing ; (semicolon)? That would be the equivalent on the other side of the keyboard.

I also don't see why it would encourage sloppy typing, particularly since you have all of the Colemak typists who would probably want to disagree with you. About breaking the motion, that seems very subjective (which of course at the same time means you're entitled to that opinion). I'd rather my typing not be so broken by having to move so far to press backspace and instead only have a small hiccup.

In WoW I can see that being true in terms of frequency, but as backspace probably accounts for 3% of keypresses (estimating typing accuracy at 97% based on http://www.keyhero.com/ and this actually tends to increase as you get faster which can easily be seen by looking at the accuracy of the people on the leaderboards at typeracer), that would make it around the 13th most commonly pressed key after spacebar and etaoinshrdl, which almost makes it home row worthy, so much so that it would probably be well received switching places with apostrophe. Actually, this makes me think that apostrophe would make a good position for a 1 unit control key, because it would be opposite of ASZXCVF which are commonly used with control so that you aren't doing combos with the same hand.

And yes, while control key usage does depend on use cases, programming is not a typical use case when considering typists in general (as programmers represent a small portion of people who type), and even programmers will type a fair amount of plain text (either on or outside the job).
« Last Edit: Fri, 15 March 2013, 00:34:59 by oneproduct »
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Offline iri

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 15 March 2013, 03:09:36 »
...this is why ctrl-h makes a better backspace.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline ch_123

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 15 March 2013, 05:05:25 »
I seem to recall reading somewhere that Caps Lock was moved to its current position on the Model M (whereas the Model F PC and AT keyboards had it where right Ctrl is on a modern keyboard) at the request IBM's business customers who were used to the Caps Lock placement on the Selectric typewriter.

Offline hasu

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 15 March 2013, 06:43:02 »
Someone tried dual role modifier on Caps Lock?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modifier_key#Dual-role_modifier_keys

I'm thinking of Control + Backspace or Control + Escape on the key.

Offline Burz

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 15 March 2013, 06:59:25 »
Backspace placement should not affect error rate at all. Its usage is determined by how accurately you use the other keys in the first place.

The only reservation I have is that I never seem to have a way to turn the backspace key into a caps key, so I have to do something like Command-caps instead.

I am all for programmers having adapted keyboard layouts built in to operating systems. It just makes sense to have the modifiers, numbers and symbols handled differently.
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Offline Grim Fandango

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Re: Caps Lock's placement on ANSI boards is antiquated
« Reply #44 on: Fri, 15 March 2013, 07:10:40 »
I have to say that I quite agree. The caps lock has some premium real estate on the keyboard, yet I really never use it. Not even once a day...

I am now thinking about what I should do with it. I am too used to having Ctrl in its original location, and do not want to get used to having it on the caps lock because I use many different computers during the day
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