Author Topic: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.  (Read 188007 times)

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Offline regack

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #50 on: Sat, 11 May 2013, 13:29:02 »
I got my first PCBs back from OSHPark, and they need some cleanup.  The edge cuts are not neat, and need to be trimmed down in places where they were snapped apart. 

I liked that you could just order 1 of something from BatchPCB, and while the ones from OSHPark are a bit nicer looking, I don't always need or want 3 of something. 

Basically, OSHPark is not quite as friendly for prototyping things.

Offline regicide

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #51 on: Sat, 11 May 2013, 18:14:01 »
I got my first PCBs back from OSHPark, and they need some cleanup.  The edge cuts are not neat, and need to be trimmed down in places where they were snapped apart. 

I liked that you could just order 1 of something from BatchPCB, and while the ones from OSHPark are a bit nicer looking, I don't always need or want 3 of something. 

I noticed that OSHPark quote $5/sqin for double layer abd $10/sqin for quadruple layer and they also have a minimum order or 3, so is this price per board (so have to multiply by 3) or the total already including 3 copies?
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Offline mkawa

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #52 on: Sat, 11 May 2013, 18:16:12 »
hey look! i'm trying to make your guys' designs monetarily feasible to produce!

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43362.0   :D

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline OldDataHands

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #53 on: Sat, 11 May 2013, 19:49:13 »
I noticed that OSHPark quote $5/sqin for double layer abd $10/sqin for quadruple layer and they also have a minimum order or 3, so is this price per board (so have to multiply by 3) or the total already including 3 copies?

The $5/sqin covers the 3 copies you'll get. so a 10sqin design will cost you $50, and you'll get 3 copies of it.

Offline TheFlyingRaccoon

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #54 on: Sat, 11 May 2013, 22:37:52 »
Wow looks awesome so far. Keep us updated!
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Offline regack

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #55 on: Sun, 12 May 2013, 09:22:14 »
I noticed that OSHPark quote $5/sqin for double layer abd $10/sqin for quadruple layer and they also have a minimum order or 3, so is this price per board (so have to multiply by 3) or the total already including 3 copies?

The $5/sqin covers the 3 copies you'll get. so a 10sqin design will cost you $50, and you'll get 3 copies of it.


Another nice thing is that the $5/sqin also includes the shipping charges.  I'm not thrilled about having to clean up the tabs on the edges of the PCBs though.


Offline OldDataHands

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #56 on: Mon, 13 May 2013, 14:24:13 »
hey look! i'm trying to make your guys' designs monetarily feasible to produce!

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43362.0   :D

Hey mkawa, that could be great! I can imagine using an FDM machine to make the DodoHand handrests and case.  Might provide some advantages over the 3D printed ceramic I've been imagining...

Offline mkawa

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #57 on: Mon, 13 May 2013, 14:55:52 »
at the very least you'll want to to proto your design before you throw down for ceramic.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline OldDataHands

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #58 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 18:58:44 »
Parts have arrived!  The PCBs arrived today:
23066-0

The 3D printed parts arrived a couple days ago:
23068-1

The holes all seem to line up too, which is a relief.

In trying to pack the parts together tightly to minimize
the bounding box for the 3D print, I placed some of the
keys vertically, and some horizontally.  This seems to
have had a significant impact on their resulting dimensions.
There will have to be some trimming of the parts this time
to make them all fit together.  That's a bit disappointing,
but lesson learned. Overall, this revision of the finger
assemblies is a big improvement, but it's already clear that
at least one more step is needed as I've created an
interference in trying to mount the magnet carrier of the
center key into the carrier...  This version will work though,
and that's the key!

Next step will be to create a bending jig to help
reliably and repeatably make the steel clips which
attract the magnets for the key return force.

I hope to get that made within the next couple weeks.
More at that time...


Offline metalliqaz

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #59 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 19:09:46 »
incredible

Offline regicide

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #60 on: Thu, 23 May 2013, 19:14:17 »
Wow those are looking amazing!, really excited to see it all assembled :D
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Offline Davaris

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #61 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 03:45:30 »
This is looking great! You guys doing any programming for this?

Offline Input Nirvana

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #62 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 22:58:10 »
The added pointer was a PS/2 Trackpoint from an IBM KPD8923. It has a ribbon cable to it's own separate pcb that is separate from the keyboard pcb. It's what I used for the Split Kinesis. Gator 456 and I bought a bunch of those boards to use for mods. He has serious RSI. He also wrote some firmware that he may have been able to sell to Datahand, but they are very quiet and don't seem to respond to emails/phone calls anymore :(
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Offline Davaris

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #63 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 03:19:52 »
I really love the look of the DataHand and would love to get one of my own, so I emailed them a couple of days ago and both email addresses bounced!  :confused:

Anyway, I wish I had skills with circuit boards, because then I could help out. I'll have to find a build your own circuit board for dummies book. lol
« Last Edit: Thu, 06 June 2013, 03:42:54 by Davaris »

Offline Davaris

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #64 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 12:53:18 »
The added pointer was a PS/2 Trackpoint from an IBM KPD8923. It has a ribbon cable to it's own separate pcb that is separate from the keyboard pcb. It's what I used for the Split Kinesis

There is some eye tracking technology coming out, that looks like it might work great with the DataHand.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upgrade-your-life/could-eye-tracking-replace-mouse-181726788.html

Offline OldDataHands

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #65 on: Fri, 07 June 2013, 17:19:55 »
Anyway, I wish I had skills with circuit boards, because then I could help out.
I've got the PCB aspect reasonably well covered. Now, if you could create a parametric
3D model of the handrest (and/or case) in an open souce tool, (like OpenSCAD) which could be printed
by mkawa's new FDM printer, or shapeway's ceramic process, then we might have something!

Offline Davaris

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #66 on: Fri, 07 June 2013, 23:51:42 »
I own Rhinoceros/T-Splines and was competent with it a couple of years ago, but have forgotten what I learned, as I shifted my focus to programing. I didn't want to say anything, as I don't know if I have the patience to relearn Rhino. Rhino is is used by machinists and jewelers in 3D printing, so it might be good enough to do the job.

All you need to do is document what you want made - multiple pictures of each component along with exact dimensions. Google '3D model references' and click on images, to see what is needed. Once you have something like that on display, if not me then someone else is likely to make it, as it is not difficult if you have the right skill set.
« Last Edit: Fri, 07 June 2013, 23:53:27 by Davaris »

Offline OldDataHands

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #67 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 20:52:06 »
Finally made it to a mill with a DRO (0.0002 inch increments!) on the table,
and made the clip bending jig: 25403-0

Might even be able to assemble the left hand fingers prototype this weekend.
This works better than I had expected, and works even though my 0.038" drill
bit snapped off in the last hole.  These are 1mm stainless steel pins in 7075 alu.

pictured are the clips needed for 1 finger assembly - 4 S shapes for the N/E/S/W
keys in 0.020, and the other in 0.015.

Offline OldDataHands

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #68 on: Sun, 16 June 2013, 21:50:13 »
25628-0

I am typing this with my left hand fingers on the prototype.
Very satisfying.  It's perched precariously on top of my datahand
so that I can still use the thumb keys of the original, but the
fingers all work.  I'm geeked.  The dodohand is coming alive!

Feel-wise, It's OK. Usable. The center keys are still perhaps a bit
too snappy, and the N/E/S/W keys are perhaps a bit too soft, but
it is certainly serviceable.

The stem of the center buttons is too small, affording too much
slop, so that'll have to be addressed.  There are numerous small
details that need to be improved in the three-D model (Can't type
the digit three as I only mapped the letters!) before I get another
set printed. These would address things that made the assembly
a bit slow.

Main point though: It Works!


 

Offline regicide

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Offline Input Nirvana

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #70 on: Sun, 16 June 2013, 22:28:26 »
Do you think that this unit may be the only prototype, or you may need a second/third to dial in the quality/engineering issues?
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Offline OldDataHands

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #71 on: Sun, 16 June 2013, 22:47:02 »
Do you think that this unit may be the only prototype, or you may need a second/third to dial in the quality/engineering issues?

I can work out the center-stem slop on this prototype, and will do so.

I'll then do another rev of the finger assembly before moving on to
the thumb switches. Fortunately, the PCB didn't need any rework this
time, and I have two spare, and the electronics needed to populate
them.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #72 on: Sun, 16 June 2013, 22:59:49 »
Do you think that this unit may be the only prototype, or you may need a second/third to dial in the quality/engineering issues?

I can work out the center-stem slop on this prototype, and will do so.

I'll then do another rev of the finger assembly before moving on to
the thumb switches. Fortunately, the PCB didn't need any rework this
time, and I have two spare, and the electronics needed to populate
them.

Oustanding! So that tells me quite a bit about how close you are on this prototype, a great start.
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Offline metalliqaz

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #73 on: Sun, 16 June 2013, 23:33:55 »
epic

Offline eviltobz

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #74 on: Mon, 17 June 2013, 07:43:42 »
just want to add some more appreciation to this thread :) it's looking awesome! fingers crossed that between you and dox there'll be something that ends up nice and group-buyable in the not too far and distant future.

Offline wejn

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #75 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 04:55:28 »
There are numerous small
details that need to be improved in the three-D model (Can't type
the digit three as I only mapped the letters!) before I get another
set printed. These would address things that made the assembly
a bit slow.

Main point though: It Works!

Wow, just wow. I don't know what are your plans with this but I'd definitely like to get either sources, parts, or the finished (populated) PCB.

My DH personal is starting to fail after 5+ years of continuous use (some switches are a bit sticky, others double letters from time to time) and I'd love to have a backup 'cos I can't imagine typing without DH anymore.

Not to mention switching to USB (via teensy) would make things much easier.

Offline OldDataHands

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #76 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 05:17:40 »
I plan to make the sources available. Then all of us datahand users
will have a long-term plan for a lifetime of typing!

You might get some miles out of yours with a cleaning. So far, my
DH misbehaving keys have been fixed by cleaning the infrared
components with a Q-tip or similar.

Offline wejn

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #77 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 12:03:34 »
I'm chuffed to bits to hear that. Man, this is dream come true in the making.

As for cleaning -- ok, will look into that. Thanks for the hint.

Offline Viz

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #78 on: Tue, 02 July 2013, 20:41:52 »
very nice. i'm definitely interested in one of these(when it's finished). When do you think it'll be done? and what price will it be at?

Offline OldDataHands

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #79 on: Tue, 02 July 2013, 23:17:58 »
When do you think it'll be done? and what price will it be at?

I hope to have the finger assembly done this summer.
I hope to have the thumb switches figured out before
winter is over.  Perhaps by this time next year all the
pieces will be ready?

Pricing is pretty far out at this point. I could imagine a
simple, cheap case option allowing a cost of less than
$400, particularly if a group buy allows good pricing on
PCBs and electronics.

Offline korrelate

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #80 on: Tue, 02 July 2013, 23:57:19 »
Absolutely awesome, inspiring and industrious!! This thread is good reading!
All keysets ought to have blank "Windows" and "Menu" keys.



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Offline agodinhost

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #81 on: Wed, 03 July 2013, 07:07:16 »
Ohhh man
more one project that I would like to build!
GOSH!

Please, could you provide the 3d files?
I saw a teensy at your schematic and other IC - what is that for? (the second IC)
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Offline Tarzan

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #82 on: Wed, 03 July 2013, 07:15:29 »
This is an absolutely amazing project!  Your updates are the first posts I read when I log into GH.   ;D

Offline Viz

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #83 on: Wed, 03 July 2013, 12:39:54 »
When do you think it'll be done? and what price will it be at?

I hope to have the finger assembly done this summer.
I hope to have the thumb switches figured out before
winter is over.  Perhaps by this time next year all the
pieces will be ready?

Pricing is pretty far out at this point. I could imagine a
simple, cheap case option allowing a cost of less than
$400, particularly if a group buy allows good pricing on
PCBs and electronics.

Very nice, and you're doing alot of great work.
You said you would release the source code etc, because I only need the (left and right) finger assemblies. I've got another idea for the thumb buttons. Would it then be possible for me to get the finger assemblies printed when they're done?

Offline OldDataHands

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #84 on: Wed, 03 July 2013, 18:27:43 »
Please, could you provide the 3d files?
Would it then be possible for me to get the finger assemblies printed when they're done?

I'm not yet ready to publish the files, but if you send me a PM, I'll gladly pass on the sources
as they stand. You'll then be able to generate .stl files, and send them to Shapeways or the
3D printer of your choice. I expect to use the GPLv3 or later license.

Just to be clear: I've created the 3D model with OpenSCAD so that 1) anybody can freely
have access to the tools (from Linux and Windows) and 2) the source files for the model are
text CSG. This strongly suggests creating a parameterized model which provides an
opportunity for automatically adjusting the model to suit different 3D printing processes.

Now, I'm not really satisfied the level and quality of my parameterization at this point, but
then I'm new to 3D modeling. I _am_ getting better at it.

I saw a teensy at your schematic and other IC - what is that for? (the second IC)

The 2nd chip is a demux - a 74act238.  It isn't critical to the design/operation, but is a simple
way of expanding I/O a bit.  It's what I use to scan the matrix - 4 output pins of Teensy++ to
scan 7 rows. Could be done directly with the Teensy++, but I wanted to try it out. IIRC
something similar is done in my DataHand.

Offline mkawa

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #85 on: Wed, 03 July 2013, 19:38:20 »
i can take STL, solidworks 13, but not rhino. autocad i would prefer exported to STL at highest res. i can bring it down from there. ideally you give me either STL or .thing, which is the makerware encapsulation of any number of STL files (that is, poly solids) and their position on the build plate (select rep2x as your machine).

i am ready to start printing for real, by the way. my tolerances may vary depending on the weather (quite literally, the heated build plate varies in dimension according to its own whims.. :/)

the numbers i've been throwing around are somewhere around $0.25-0.4/cm3 (although by gram might be easier to deal with..). this is for ABS prints (i've got some weird issue with PLA at the moment..)

ordering is by PM at the moment. we have to work quite closely to get a print out.
« Last Edit: Wed, 03 July 2013, 19:41:09 by mkawa »

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #86 on: Thu, 04 July 2013, 00:08:42 »
When do you think it'll be done? and what price will it be at?

I hope to have the finger assembly done this summer.
I hope to have the thumb switches figured out before
winter is over.  Perhaps by this time next year all the
pieces will be ready?

Pricing is pretty far out at this point. I could imagine a
simple, cheap case option allowing a cost of less than
$400, particularly if a group buy allows good pricing on
PCBs and electronics.

Very nice, and you're doing alot of great work.
You said you would release the source code etc, because I only need the (left and right) finger assemblies. I've got another idea for the thumb buttons. Would it then be possible for me to get the finger assemblies printed when they're done?

Would it be possible for you to show us your detailed idea for the thumb buttons?
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Offline mkawa

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #87 on: Thu, 04 July 2013, 00:44:34 »
pla issues solved if you want it

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Miax

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #88 on: Sun, 07 July 2013, 08:16:23 »
Sign Me UP!
 
Unbelievable... That's all I can say at the moment as I have hoped/wished to find other Data Hand refugees like me for a long time! I have used Data Hands since 1992, have owned 4 pair of them over time (only 1 pair is still working - barely). Then recently to see a new pair go on auction on Ebay for $2,500 left me feeling like I was doomed!
 
And then my wife finds this thread - Thank You Eileen!!! :)
 
I am a long-time Maker, Internet Technologist, Video Game developer and 3D printing junkie - and I am definitely on-board with remaking the data hand!
 
The best site that shows what I can do in Blender with 3D modelling and with Arduino/ATMega/Rasberry Pi is my Google-Plus profile: https://plus.google.com/u/0/117228107982719398401/posts
 
I have to read through the entire thread here and find out exactly how the electronics were done, and what I can do on the 3 modelling front.
 
Cheers!

Kris
 

Offline mkawa

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #89 on: Sun, 07 July 2013, 08:19:50 »
i can now take SW13, autocad inventor, STL. pick your poison. ABS only. 200 micron res.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline OldDataHands

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #90 on: Sun, 07 July 2013, 20:55:17 »
Sign Me UP!
 [ ed ... ]  and what I can do on the 3 modelling front.
 

Hi Miax,
You may be the perfect person to create a model for the case!
You already have a datahand to take measurements from...
My one gripe with the datahand case is that the case doesn't allow
the tented, angled, and very close together position that I would like.
So, my design input for the case starts like this:

- OpenSCAD or possibly Blender if it supports model parameterization (I've
read that it can be done) so that anyone can manipulate the model without
needing to purchase software (open to other options if they meet this goal)

- parametric design allowing the basic 3D printing process tolerances
and design parameters to be updated with parameter changes. This should
help those not intimately familiar with 3D modeling tool to adjust the model,
and should allow easier targetting of various 3D printing processes.
model units should be mm if possible. I think that at least the palmrest needs
to be 3D printed to easily get a nice organic shape. Circuit board sizes, palm rest
parameters, lengths of slots and sides, parameters for thumb button openings,
and anything else which should be adjustable should come into the model
through an adjustable parameter.

- develop a simple approach for fixing height/position of the finger assembly
relative to the thumb/palmrest. I am not super sensitive to the exact positioning
of the finger assembly, so I think there is flexibility there. Ideally, this will be
an approach which will be simple to manufacture at our scales here...(i.e. maybe
not the geared sliding infinitely adjustable approach of the original) Maybe just
a way to use a variety of standoff lengths to do some height adjustment, and some
slots for finger-2-palm distance?

- support a threaded insert for mounting like on the original.

- Support for a second threaded insert so that they can be prevented from
spinning on tenting stands.

I think that shapeways' ceramic printing, and mkawa's FDM process are the
two that should be targetted in the initial design.

I suspect that others have input, and hope to hear it. Maybe we can make good
use of laser cut wood or acrylic for part of the case?

Are you interested/willing to have a go at the case design?

Maybe some adjustable palmrest is possible instead of the DataHand S/M/L approach?

I expect to have only 2 PCBs per hand, one for the thumbs, one for fingers, with possibly
leaving the back of the case open, maybe with some strain-relief tie-down points for exiting cables.

Even if you don't want to take this on, please add your comments on how the case should be done.
I'll try to include what I can when I get to that point.

I just moved, so will have limited internet for a few days... I could send sketches then if that
 would be helpful.

« Last Edit: Mon, 08 July 2013, 12:25:01 by OldDataHands »

Offline OldDataHands

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #91 on: Sun, 07 July 2013, 21:20:30 »
Anyone have any thoughts for the right open source hardware license for this project?
I just read through the CERN license and it seems like what I have in mind...

Offline mkawa

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #92 on: Mon, 08 July 2013, 10:40:13 »
hey IN, want to write up a geekhack open source license? :D

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #93 on: Mon, 08 July 2013, 20:51:58 »
Sounds like something that may actually really, truly need to happen.

Fortunately.
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Offline agodinhost

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #94 on: Tue, 09 July 2013, 09:53:37 »
hey IN, want to write up a geekhack open source license? :D
Why not use one already written?
Building one square I2C keyboard with those 1200 switches (thanks JDCarpe)
GH60 |GH60-Alps |GH60-BT |GHPad/GHPad Alps |GH60-Case |Alps TKL |EL Wire |OS Controller, Round 2 |My Custom Keyboard |WTT/WTB

Offline Thimplum

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #95 on: Tue, 09 July 2013, 12:11:39 »
hey IN, want to write up a geekhack open source license? :D
Why not use one already written?

The WTFPL is my favorite.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #96 on: Tue, 09 July 2013, 12:36:17 »
Sounds like something that may actually really, truly need to happen.

Fortunately.
the existing open source hardware licenses are a hodgepodge and don't cover hardware/software combinations... i think this we have something genuine to contribute on a more general scale here.

also that general thing could be named the geekhack general purpose license ad infinitum :D (ggpl lol qq!)

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Thimplum

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #97 on: Wed, 10 July 2013, 08:32:25 »
Sounds like something that may actually really, truly need to happen.

Fortunately.
the existing open source hardware licenses are a hodgepodge and don't cover hardware/software combinations... i think this we have something genuine to contribute on a more general scale here.

also that general thing could be named the geekhack general purpose license ad infinitum :D (ggpl lol qq!)

The WTFPL is a VERY wide reaching and general license.
TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013

Offline agodinhost

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #98 on: Wed, 10 July 2013, 21:21:16 »
hey IN, want to write up a geekhack open source license? :D
Why not use one already written?

The WTFPL is my favorite.
I do prefer GPL or LGPL.
http://opensource.org/licenses
Building one square I2C keyboard with those 1200 switches (thanks JDCarpe)
GH60 |GH60-Alps |GH60-BT |GHPad/GHPad Alps |GH60-Case |Alps TKL |EL Wire |OS Controller, Round 2 |My Custom Keyboard |WTT/WTB

Offline Thimplum

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Re: Re-Create the datahand - first babystep
« Reply #99 on: Tue, 16 July 2013, 13:22:12 »
hey IN, want to write up a geekhack open source license? :D
Why not use one already written?

The WTFPL is my favorite.
I do prefer GPL or LGPL.
http://opensource.org/licenses

Meh. Too much legalese.
TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013