Industrial M

[E TwentyNine]

Price hasn't shot up too high just yet:  eBay

[esoomenona]

It will now!

[E TwentyNine]

  You'll go a long way for that logo emblem, won't you?

[esoomenona]

Ha, not by me... By someone here. I would never do that an Indy SSK. Plus that emblem is smaller than the fullsize one.

[E TwentyNine]

Had me shocked for a second, had to go back and check.

It's not an I-SSK, it's a fullsize industrial.

[esoomenona]

Oh shoot, you're right. It's the tiny pictures on this screen. Plus I haven't had enough beer yet. Anyway, I wouldn't even do that to an original Indy 101. The furthest I would go is take one from a black M13, and only because I'd take the caps as well.

But, if it doesn't go too high, I might want to take it to have an actual Indy.

[Turbo Slaab]

I'd buy this in a heartbeat if they had more than 2kro. I've always liked the look of the Industrial Model M's.

[E TwentyNine]

I'd buy this in a heartbeat if they had more than 2kro. I've always liked the look of the Industrial Model M's.

Have you ever used an M an encountered a problem due to 2KRO?

[jwaz]

2kro is only in specific key combos AFAIK most of the time you can get away with more.

[Turbo Slaab]

I'd buy this in a heartbeat if they had more than 2kro. I've always liked the look of the Industrial Model M's.

Have you ever used an M an encountered a problem due to 2KRO?

No, I've never used an M at all. However I game a lot more than type and kro is more important to me personally. I didn't mean to sound like I'm bashing M's because of that reason. I've been hemming and hawing about picking one up just to try it out, if I could find one for cheap.

[E TwentyNine]

I'd buy this in a heartbeat if they had more than 2kro. I've always liked the look of the Industrial Model M's.

Have you ever used an M an encountered a problem due to 2KRO?

No, I've never used an M at all. However I game a lot more than type and kro is more important to me personally. I didn't mean to sound like I'm bashing M's because of that reason. I've been hemming and hawing about picking one up just to try it out, if I could find one for cheap.

Well, as Zombie says, 2KRO is often misunderstood.  Vast majority of the time you can get away with more.

I've never had a problem with key registration when gaming with my M's, and they're all I've used for a long long time.

[Turbo Slaab]

I'd buy this in a heartbeat if they had more than 2kro. I've always liked the look of the Industrial Model M's.

Have you ever used an M an encountered a problem due to 2KRO?

No, I've never used an M at all. However I game a lot more than type and kro is more important to me personally. I didn't mean to sound like I'm bashing M's because of that reason. I've been hemming and hawing about picking one up just to try it out, if I could find one for cheap.

Well, as Zombie says, 2KRO is often misunderstood.  Vast majority of the time you can get away with more.

I've never had a problem with key registration when gaming with my M's, and they're all I've used for a long long time.

Hmm. Maybe I'll bid on this and see what happens. How much do you think this will realistically go for?

[E TwentyNine]

Hmm. Maybe I'll bid on this and see what happens. How much do you think this will realistically go for?

The last one I've seen on eBay went for over $200.

And I've seen them go higher.

But given that this auction doesn't mention that it's an industrial so people looking for these may not catch it, it may be lower.

I'm horrible at estimating where auctions will go, I don't think over $150 would be unexpected for this.

If you want to try an M you'd be better off picking up a standard one for considerably less, likely under $35 plus shipping.

Here's one starting bidding at $19, and a few of the recent auction closes were well within that range.

[Turbo Slaab]

How much do you think SSk's would go for? I don't have too much room on my desk.

Will this work with a modern motherboard?

[Rule16]

I'd buy this in a heartbeat if they had more than 2kro. I've always liked the look of the Industrial Model M's.

Have you ever used an M an encountered a problem due to 2KRO?

No, I've never used an M at all. However I game a lot more than type and kro is more important to me personally. I didn't mean to sound like I'm bashing M's because of that reason. I've been hemming and hawing about picking one up just to try it out, if I could find one for cheap.

Well, as Zombie says, 2KRO is often misunderstood.  Vast majority of the time you can get away with more.

I've never had a problem with key registration when gaming with my M's, and they're all I've used for a long long time.

Still, most gamers need more, 6kro is the bare minimum that I will do.

[E TwentyNine]

Still, most gamers need more, 6kro is the bare minimum that I will do.

Most?  No way.

But I'll ask you the same question.   Have you gamed with an M?  Where did you have problems?

[tipo33]

I'm glad I saw this.   I'm in for the Industrial M.  I have lusted after one for ages....

[E TwentyNine]

How much do you think SSk's would go for? I don't have too much room on my desk.

Will this work with a modern motherboard?

There's one going for $190 in the classifieds right now.

Should work ok with a modern motherboard through a usb converter, don't know that all modern mb's with ps/2 port deal ok with the power draw of an m.

By the way, if you're up for a little work, you can hack the numberpad off a standard M and get something close to an SSK.  I've done it twice already.

[esoomenona]

My Asrock MB does just fine.

[Turbo Slaab]

How much do you think SSk's would go for? I don't have too much room on my desk.

Will this work with a modern motherboard?

There's one going for $190 in the classifieds right now.

Should work ok with a modern motherboard through a usb converter, don't know that all modern mb's with ps/2 port deal ok with the power draw of an m.

By the way, if you're up for a little work, you can hack the numberpad off a standard M and get something close to an SSK.  I've done it twice already.

I remember seeing a thread for that a while ago. I wouldn't be up for it myself but I'd see about possibly having someone else do it. If I could find someone that wanted to.

[dorkvader]

My Asrock MB does just fine.

Mine too, does well with any PS2 keyboard I've plugged into it. From a first-generation 1390120 to a modern CMstorm.

[berserkfan]

Hey Guys

I saw this keyboard and it looks darn good. But is an Industrial M any different from a normal M fundamentally?

I think we can just paint the casing of a normal M, and it'll look a lot like an industrial M.

I'm saying this because I really don't have that kind of money to spend, but I do have spare model Ms lying around in my house!

[metalliqaz]

The industrial just has a different color

[Turbo Slaab]

The industrial just has a sexy color

FTFY

[Rule16]

Still, most gamers need more, 6kro is the bare minimum that I will do.

Most?  No way.

But I'll ask you the same question.   Have you gamed with an M?  Where did you have problems?

No, but I've gamed on another keyboard with "2kro" and I had tons of problems, I can remember exact situations that I could tell you besides randomly starting to walk to the right because it was some time ago. But I do remember there were several key combinations that I couldn't do.

[esoomenona]

Is the M 2KRO? I seem to get at 8 out of it. Not N, but better than 6 even.

[jwaz]

Is the M 2KRO? I seem to get at 8 out of it. Not N, but better than 6 even.

It depends on the combination, 2kro is not a general rule it only applies to a specific instance of keys being pressed. The Model M is conseridered "2KRO" because the matrix only allows 2 keys to be read in SOME combos.

[esoomenona]

Ah, I see what you mean! It just took some more key pressing to find one of those instances.

[jwaz]

If you have any interest in reading more:

http://pcbheaven.com/wikipages/How_Key_Matrices_Works/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_matrix_circuit

There are a few more articles I really liked but can't seem to find them ATM, hmmm

[E TwentyNine]

Is the M 2KRO? I seem to get at 8 out of it. Not N, but better than 6 even.

It depends on the combination, 2kro is not a general rule it only applies to a specific instance of keys being pressed. The Model M is conseridered "2KRO" because the matrix only allows 2 keys to be read in SOME combos.

This is the thing, 2KRO means that's the highest you're guaranteed to get, but you can get more depending on combinations.  It's probably the most misunderstood thing about the term.

On the M, the modifier keys are not included in this.   And esoomenona I'm guessing that's how you get 8.  I think all the modifiers have a dedicated trace which tends to keep them out of the fray, but I'd have to check the matrix.

Also, the abilities of a 2KRO keyboard depend a lot on the matrix and the controller, and I suspect a lot of the later keyboards were not that well designed for either.

[esoomenona]

If you have any interest in reading more:

http://pcbheaven.com/wikipages/How_Key_Matrices_Works/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_matrix_circuit

There are a few more articles I really liked but can't seem to find them ATM, hmmm

Thanks, that was really interesting. If you ever find those other articles, could you PM them to me?

This is the thing, 2KRO means that's the highest you're guaranteed to get, but you can get more depending on combinations.  It's probably the most misunderstood thing about the term.

On the M, the modifier keys are not included in this.   And esoomenona I'm guessing that's how you get 8.  I think all the modifiers have a dedicated trace which tends to keep them out of the fray, but I'd have to check the matrix.

Also, the abilities of a 2KRO keyboard depend a lot on the matrix and the controller, and I suspect a lot of the later keyboards were not that well designed for either.

I did misunderstand that until just now. But I did understand that most keyboards don't count modifiers in the KRO count, so I didn't press any of those. I was pressing across a row.

[E TwentyNine]

I did misunderstand that until just now. But I did understand that most keyboards don't count modifiers in the KRO count, so I didn't press any of those. I was pressing across a row.

What key combination gets you 8 without modifiers?

[esoomenona]

asdfjkl;
qweruiop
qwerjkl;
zxcvuiop
qwerjkl;

Just a couple. 8 seems to be the max though.

[esoomenona]

1234890

It seems going down a column is the limitation. Some I get 2, others 3.

[Rule16]

Hmmm I may get a model m now... I thought it'd be the same as something like, say the dell quietkey... That was the only thing holding me back from getting one, besides the fact that they're used. Are the unicomps the same way?
 

1234890

It seems going down a column is the limitation. Some I get 2, others 3.

Can you try doing some "gaming clusters" for me? IE., arrow keys wasd, etc... Also i just realized that if i wanted a TKL model m im pretty muh screwed to get one new, or used for that matter so thats a bit dissapointing

[E TwentyNine]

asdfjkl;
qweruiop
qwerjkl;
zxcvuiop
qwerjkl;

Just a couple. 8 seems to be the max though.

You're connected straight PS/2?

[esoomenona]

.

[fohat.digs]

With the Model F and Soarer's Converter, you get a better keyboard and NKRO over USB.

I don't game, but if you are really searching for something great ......

[E TwentyNine]

Yes sir. Why do you ask?

I only get 5 with those combinations thru bluecube.  Have to go find my cheapo adapter and see what that gets me...

Edit: With my cheapo Y ps/2->usb, I get 6 keys on those combinations.

[esoomenona]

.

[E TwentyNine]

I think understanding the limitations of your keyboard and working with what it gives you would help with gaming. For instance, if you wanted to game with a M, test it, then see where mapping your keys would work best.

It seems on mine, these 8 rows work to something along 8kro. Throwing in other keys kills the combo right away. For instance, if you press and hold d and f, then try to press g, it doesn't register.

Check out the membranes: ASDFJKL; all sit on one top trace, as do the other combos respectively.  IBM seemed to set up the layout to handle the home keys especially well.

[fohat.digs]

I don't really game either. At least, not to the extent of people who "need" their NKRO. But I really need to get my hands on a Soarer's Converter for my F. I was considering posting a WTB for one soon.

I would be surprised if anybody was selling a used one.

They cost under $20 (maybe $22 max with shipping) and pjrc is up in Washington State. They ship fast and it will probably be in your mailbox within 72 hours.

Be sure to order one "with pins" unless you are fitting it into a very thin enclosure.

[dorkvader]

I think you can only get to the number of rows on a 2KRO keyboard before you start getting blocked keys.

The reason the modifiers are usually available for three key combinations is normally because the matrix is optimised for their use. I have been thinking about a model M and getting it NKRO. The biggest barriers are getting either a PCB or flex PCB in that size and finding somewhere to put the diodes (there looks like there's room under the ridge of the barrels. Otherwise, you'll have to cut holes in the plate or barrel plate to fit them)

I've always wanted an M industrial, so maybe I'll bid on one of these. If not, I'm sure I'll find one somewhere (I might have a deal already; we'll see if it goes through)

---
On my soarer converter, I went without pins, soldered the DIN connector to the holes and then press-fit mounted it in an enclosure. If^H^H when I were to do it again, I might get an aluminium housing and one of those neutrik USB connectors and make it "pretty".

[vivalarevolución]

Hmm. Maybe I'll bid on this and see what happens. How much do you think this will realistically go for?

The last one I've seen on eBay went for over $200.

And I've seen them go higher.

But given that this auction doesn't mention that it's an industrial so people looking for these may not catch it, it may be lower.

I'm horrible at estimating where auctions will go, I don't think over $150 would be unexpected for this.

If you want to try an M you'd be better off picking up a standard one for considerably less, likely under $35 plus shipping.

Here's one starting bidding at $19, and a few of the recent auction closes were well within that range.

Hey that's mine I'm selling.  thanks for the cross promotion.

[Turbo Slaab]

Hmm. Maybe I'll bid on this and see what happens. How much do you think this will realistically go for?

The last one I've seen on eBay went for over $200.

And I've seen them go higher.

But given that this auction doesn't mention that it's an industrial so people looking for these may not catch it, it may be lower.

I'm horrible at estimating where auctions will go, I don't think over $150 would be unexpected for this.

If you want to try an M you'd be better off picking up a standard one for considerably less, likely under $35 plus shipping.

Here's one starting bidding at $19, and a few of the recent auction closes were well within that range.

Hey that's mine I'm selling.  thanks for the cross promotion.

Ha! I thought that name sounded familiar.......

[E TwentyNine]

Hey that's mine I'm selling.  thanks for the cross promotion.

I picked that one because it doesn't have some insane starting price some of the M listings often start with.

[E TwentyNine]

I don't really game either. At least, not to the extent of people who "need" their NKRO. But I really need to get my hands on a Soarer's Converter for my F. I was considering posting a WTB for one soon.

Can you do a little experiment for me?   You're going to need some extra fingers or some other method (spare the details )

Try this on your ps/2 M (maybe with aquakey):

Edit: forget this, wrong wrong wrong, correct sequences below
q w e r u i o p f10 f11 f12 PrtScn PgDn End

And tell us where it stop registering?

Thanks

[The_Ed]

On my 120 with an orihalcon SDL to USB cable I can only get 5 keys + some modifiers. I think that may just be the limit of the cable though.

[esoomenona]

I don't really game either. At least, not to the extent of people who "need" their NKRO. But I really need to get my hands on a Soarer's Converter for my F. I was considering posting a WTB for one soon.

Can you do a little experiment for me?   You're going to need some extra fingers or some other method (spare the details )

Try this on your ps/2 M (maybe with aquakey):

q w e r u i o p f10 f11 f12 PrtScn PgDn End

And tell us where it stop registering?

Thanks

In any order or in that exact order? How would I know if End registered at the end?

[E TwentyNine]

I don't really game either. At least, not to the extent of people who "need" their NKRO. But I really need to get my hands on a Soarer's Converter for my F. I was considering posting a WTB for one soon.

Can you do a little experiment for me?   You're going to need some extra fingers or some other method (spare the details )

Try this on your ps/2 M (maybe with aquakey):

q w e r u i o p f10 f11 f12 PrtScn PgDn End

And tell us where it stop registering?

Thanks

In any order or in that exact order? How would I know if End registered at the end?

CRAP! I screwed up the sequence, give me a second to correct....