Author Topic: Two questions: If I don't like Topre 45g, will I like...  (Read 1991 times)

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Offline macguy80

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Two questions: If I don't like Topre 45g, will I like...
« on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 00:12:28 »
1. Topre 55g?

I love, love, LOVE the sound of my 45g keyboard, but my accuracy on it is BEYOND crap, and I've typed on it almost exclusively for a year next month. Is 55g any better? I had thought they'd be fatiguing compared to 45g, but I'm starting to wonder if I shoulda gone 55g from the start.

2. Cherry browns?

Considering they are also 45g, might I be likely to have the same accuracy problems, or is the feel/tactility different enough to possibly make a difference?

Thanks!

Offline daerid

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Re: Two questions: If I don't like Topre 45g, will I like...
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 00:15:46 »
Depends on what your accuracy depends on. That's kind of a hard one to nail down without trying a lot of different switch types.

As far as the 55g fatigue question, I don't think it will. The 55g is really a lot lighter than people think. It's noticeably stiffer than the 45g, but only just barely.

And yes, the feel and tactility of browns vs Topres is huge. They feel nothing alike (IMO).

Offline macguy80

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Re: Two questions: If I don't like Topre 45g, will I like...
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 00:31:29 »
Depends on what your accuracy depends on. That's kind of a hard one to nail down without trying a lot of different switch types.

Hi, and thanks for all your insights.

Let's see if I can define the accuracy problem problem a little better. It's a problem I only experience on my 45g Topre board. I don't have it on any other boards, no matter what switch type. The single biggest problem is that I am ALWAYS hitting nearby keys. I activate caps lock often, though I know THAT one can be fixed by a DIP switch. But even if I fix that, I would still often have INitial caps issues, or typos such as "thenm". "asnd" "problekm", etc.

That's the main problem. I am not the world's fastest typist, but it really doesn't matter if I slow down. It still happens. On any other keyboard, I simply don't have this problem, and it really does drive me nuts because I want to love this keyboard.

Offline fateswarm

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Re: Two questions: If I don't like Topre 45g, will I like...
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 00:46:27 »
Weight depends on the human and the state of the human. e.g. I saw people reporting in a thread here that they need lighter keys when they are tired and heavier ones when they are fit. I also saw that. e.g. I was tired yesterday and even this lubed brown felt impossible to type on.

And on the actual human. Some people have delicate fingers, others are built like a caveman (myself).

Having bad aim doesn't sound related to weight to be honest. More likely to skill, experience or general physical stability of the human.

edit: Plus, it's not just fingers that apply force on a key, hands should float on ideal typing so it comes to reason that the force comes from the arm as well and resting your hands excessively will make fingers forced to do that job.
« Last Edit: Tue, 04 June 2013, 00:48:39 by fateswarm »

Offline macguy80

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Re: Two questions: If I don't like Topre 45g, will I like...
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 01:11:22 »
Having bad aim doesn't sound related to weight to be honest. More likely to skill, experience or general physical stability of the human.

With all due respect, I do not have bad aim, or any of the other problems listed above. I've been typing since the early 80s, starting with the Apple II and Commodore 64, and do not have these problems on any other keyboard. Period.

So I must respectfully disagree.

Offline Halverson

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Re: Two questions: If I don't like Topre 45g, will I like...
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 01:14:14 »
I know what you mean with accuracy on some boards, I find myself mucking up my typing on lighter boards. Even going from my HHKB to the F660C at first, I was having some issues not hitting wrong keys. Using it more did help in the end, but I suppose that's not true for everyone.

It couldn't hurt to try out a 55g, they are said to be the cats pajamas. As for cherry browns, meh. If you like topre, they won't cut it. If anything, some lubed ergo-clears may be enjoyed by you.

Offline macguy80

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Re: Two questions: If I don't like Topre 45g, will I like...
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 01:20:18 »
I know what you mean with accuracy on some boards, I find myself mucking up my typing on lighter boards. Even going from my HHKB to the F660C at first, I was having some issues not hitting wrong keys. Using it more did help in the end, but I suppose that's not true for everyone.

It couldn't hurt to try out a 55g, they are said to be the cats pajamas. As for cherry browns, meh. If you like topre, they won't cut it. If anything, some lubed ergo-clears may be enjoyed by you.

Glad to know I'm not alone. That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out. I don't know if my problems stem from the action of the Topre switch itself, or the 45g weighting specifically. I guess, in a nutshell, I don't know if I like Topre because I can't figure out where the problem lies. I can type on Cherry blacks or blues or any ALPS, or even lowly rubber dome keyboards with none of these problems.

Offline fateswarm

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Re: Two questions: If I don't like Topre 45g, will I like...
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 01:22:00 »
Having bad aim doesn't sound related to weight to be honest. More likely to skill, experience or general physical stability of the human.

With all due respect, I do not have bad aim, or any of the other problems listed above. I've been typing since the early 80s, starting with the Apple II and Commodore 64, and do not have these problems on any other keyboard. Period.

So I must respectfully disagree.
Do you follow proper technique? e.g. hovering your hands over the keyboard instead of resting them anywhere?

(I do tend to rest them a lot but I do it for general comfort, I can't claim at that point that I have typing issues, before I go with a full proper technique.)

Offline macguy80

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Re: Two questions: If I don't like Topre 45g, will I like...
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 01:34:28 »

Do you follow proper technique? e.g. hovering your hands over the keyboard instead of resting them anywhere?

(I do tend to rest them a lot but I do it for general comfort, I can't claim at that point that I have typing issues, before I go with a full proper technique.)

Actually, due to physical disability, I don't. I type with middle, index and thumbs on both hands. I do tend to rest my fingers on the keys, unless I remove my hands entirely from the keyboard, which I will do for longer pauses. While this is certainly unconventional, I am stumped as to why I have issues on my Topre 45g board and no others. This is my first experience with Topre, so I don't know if the issue is the Topre switch or the weighting I chose. That's basically the question I'm trying to solve.

Offline WhiteFireDragon

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Re: Two questions: If I don't like Topre 45g, will I like...
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 02:21:38 »
Let's see if I can define the accuracy problem problem a little better. It's a problem I only experience on my 45g Topre board. I don't have it on any other boards, no matter what switch type. The single biggest problem is that I am ALWAYS hitting nearby keys. I activate caps lock often, though I know THAT one can be fixed by a DIP switch. But even if I fix that, I would still often have INitial caps issues, or typos such as "thenm". "asnd" "problekm", etc.

If you're hitting nearby keys that you shouldn't be hitting, then this is 100% user error. Put it this way, the keys don't type themselves. Hitting wrong keys is obviously by accident, but it still doesn't change the fact that you're the one doing it. You might think you type with great accuracy and can't explain why you get such horrendous accuracy with this particular 45g topre board, but here's what I believe is happening.

When you're pressing down on other mechanical keyboards, actuation is in the middle, also where the tactile bump is located. On a 45g topre board, the actuation is also in the middle, however the tactile bump starts at the very top. Once you've pressed through this tactile bump (which doesn't take much force at all), the inherent nature of the switch will force you all the way through the actuation point. So just a slight press at the very top will force you to bottom-out (obviously going through the actuation point), whereas in a switch like tactile cherry MX, you get a buffer zone for the first half of the keypress before you actuate the keys. If you accidentally hit the keys, but it's less than halfway down, the keys won't register.

What this means is that your finger accuracy is still the same on MX switches, but it's masked by the fact that you're not actually hitting it past halfway to actuate the keys. This is also why some people can "float type" and not bottom out on a cherry MX board, but it's near impossible to do so on a 45g topre without bottoming out.

Offline macguy80

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Re: Two questions: If I don't like Topre 45g, will I like...
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 02:47:04 »


If you're hitting nearby keys that you shouldn't be hitting, then this is 100% user error. Put it this way, the keys don't type themselves. Hitting wrong keys is obviously by accident, but it still doesn't change the fact that you're the one doing it. You might think you type with great accuracy and can't explain why you get such horrendous accuracy with this particular 45g topre board, but here's what I believe is happening.

When you're pressing down on other mechanical keyboards, actuation is in the middle, also where the tactile bump is located. On a 45g topre board, the actuation is also in the middle, however the tactile bump starts at the very top. Once you've pressed through this tactile bump (which doesn't take much force at all), the inherent nature of the switch will force you all the way through the actuation point. So just a slight press at the very top will force you to bottom-out (obviously going through the actuation point), whereas in a switch like tactile cherry MX, you get a buffer zone for the first half of the keypress before you actuate the keys. If you accidentally hit the keys, but it's less than halfway down, the keys won't register.

What this means is that your finger accuracy is still the same on MX switches, but it's masked by the fact that you're not actually hitting it past halfway to actuate the keys. This is also why some people can "float type" and not bottom out on a cherry MX board, but it's near impossible to do so on a 45g topre without bottoming out.

With all due respect, let me get one thing straight. I am a generally accurate typist, my disabilities notwithstanding. It is not a case of my failing to actuate keys on every other type of keyboard, the odds of which are quite improbable. There is nothing being "masked" about my typing ability. I would know if this were the case. Note that I do not claim to be a perfect typist -- far from it. But to categorically state that problems I am having are "100% user error" is grossly inaccurate, and a patently unfair assessment.

While I truly appreciate the genuine helpfulness of the VAST majority of the GH community, and I do also appreciate your info about the actuation point, replies like this make me regret that I opened my mouth in the first place.

Offline WhiteFireDragon

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Re: Two questions: If I don't like Topre 45g, will I like...
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 05:45:44 »
I didn't mean for my last post to be offensive, and you shouldn't take it that way. There is nothing wrong with having accuracy thrown way off from using a switch that works and feels completely different.

But you said it yourself (here) that you're hitting nearby keys that you're not suppose to, which is causing you to capitalize letters or type in extra letters. To me, this sounds like user error, regardless if it's on purpose or accident. If many typists were to use your same keyboard and replicate the same problems, then yes it's the keyboard. It's just hard for me to believe this unique inaccuracy problem is because of the keyboard. But if you still don't think you had any part to the inaccurate typing, then we'll just leave it at that...

Offline fuzzybaffy

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Re: Two questions: If I don't like Topre 45g, will I like...
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 06:14:06 »
The OP says his accuracy is fine with other keyboards, though.