Author Topic: What keyboard has the firmest keys?  (Read 4969 times)

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Offline Endzone

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What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 18:22:42 »
I'm going to reference this question in regards to an IBM Model M.  Back in 2002/2003 I used to buy them all the time on Ebay for $15 each.  I like the Model M very much, but in all honesty I could stand for the keys on it to be even firmer.  The best keyboard I ever used in my life is something you have never heard of.  It was a Philips Pact 220 Teleprinter that was made in The Netherlands for Telex operation.  This keyboard was made starting in 1980.  Its keys were even firmer than the Model M, and I could fly on this keyboard.  I can type 100WPM on a keyboard that has firm keys.  My fingers just kind of collapse on membrane keyboards, and I don't like them.  I worked on U.S. merchant ships for 10 years as a radio officer, and we used this keyboard/printer to send radio telex messages via a modem designed specifically for radio communications. 

But it may not matter because I'm kind of poor now, and I probably can't spend more than $60 on a keyboard right now.  I might be able to spend more later. 

So, I just wondered about some of you that have tried a lot of keyboards.  Do you have an opinion about the one with the firmest keys?  Do you think the Unicomp has keys just as firm as the Modem M?  Thanks for any responses. 

« Last Edit: Thu, 06 June 2013, 18:25:56 by Endzone »

Offline Hyde

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 18:53:55 »
Unicomp and Model M keys should be identical in theory.  Since after IBM sold it to Unicomp they just kept the same tooling.  There might be some vintage boards out there that suits your need.

Too bad I'm not an expert in vintage boards.  But out of all the commercial available boards out there right now, you can try either:

Matias Tactile Pro (Clicky ALPS)
MX Green Switches (Heavy Clicky)
MX Clear Switches (Heavy Tactile)
MX Black Switches (Heavy Linear).
« Last Edit: Thu, 06 June 2013, 18:55:26 by Hyde »

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Offline Endzone

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 19:36:18 »
Unicomp and Model M keys should be identical in theory.  Since after IBM sold it to Unicomp they just kept the same tooling.  There might be some vintage boards out there that suits your need.

Too bad I'm not an expert in vintage boards.  But out of all the commercial available boards out there right now, you can try either:

Matias Tactile Pro (Clicky ALPS)
MX Green Switches (Heavy Clicky)
MX Clear Switches (Heavy Tactile)
MX Black Switches (Heavy Linear).

Thank you for your response.  I wonder if you could save me the trouble of having to learn everything about keyboards before I buy one.  Could you briefly explain what is the difference between "tactile" and "linear"?  I know what clicky is because the IBM Model M is this way. 

Have you been up in the CN Tower?  Isn't that in Toronto?  How high up can you go?

We went to Expo '67 when I was a kid which was in Montreal. 

Craig in Ft. Worth, TX

Offline sth

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 19:39:18 »
afaik greens and blacks are going to be lighter than model M. you could try to find a board with unmodded MX whites, they are 80cN at activation IIRC.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 19:52:19 »
Scientifically the Cherries may be heavier weight than IBM buckling springs, but to me the "feel" of my IBMs are lighter than my Cherry black G80-11900s.

But I like tactility and not pressing all the way down might may be coloring my judgement (I have O-rings on the blacks, by the way).

What about those police car keyboards somebody was selling recently?
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Offline Endzone

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 19:55:59 »
afaik greens and blacks are going to be lighter than model M. you could try to find a board with unmodded MX whites, they are 80cN at activation IIRC.

Thanks for the info.  I just did a Google search, and I think this fellow here is saying MX Clear is firmer than MX White.  It seems like it would be tough to find a board that is MX White.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=17221.0

Offline wetto

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 20:11:04 »
lol, Cherry MX Blacks ain't heavy unless you have really girly fingers...  :rolleyes:

Anyways, I'm not sure Cherry MX will be the best choice in this case, unless he's up for modding switches or finding those rare switches such as White or Clears...

Ain't there any alternative from ALPs that can be found?
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Offline Hyde

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 20:12:45 »
lol I've walked up the stairs in CN Tower a few times, they do that twice a year.  They let people walk up the stairs during united way fundraising.  You can go all the way up to the main deck (biggest dome area) and if you get the extra ticket you can go up to the observation deck even higher.

As for the keyboard:

Clicky = Click sound and you feel a bump (activation point)
Tactile = No sound but you feel a bump (activation point)
Linear = No sound and no bump (activation point is half way but you can't feel it)

So generally people say Clicky and Tactile switches are better for typing because you know when your key gets registered.  And linear is good for gaming because you can spam the keys faster.

Matias Tactile Pro (Clicky): 
MX Green: 
MX Clear: 
MX Black: 

MX Green and MX Clear might be harder to find since they're not technically a mainstream switch type yet.  But the rest you should be able to find easily.

:D


EDIT:  The examples I listed are the somewhat easily available choices.  I think there might be better choices out there but might be a bit tricky to acquire those boards.
« Last Edit: Thu, 06 June 2013, 20:15:39 by Hyde »

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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 20:13:56 »
Any board with MX Greys are suuuper heavy. I really dislike them actually because of how heavy they are. I think there's a Ducky Hybrid board that has them.

Offline Endzone

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 20:34:56 »
Any board with MX Greys are suuuper heavy. I really dislike them actually because of how heavy they are. I think there's a Ducky Hybrid board that has them.

Thanks for all the response.  I just found an article on the internet that pretty much goes over the differences between all the Cherry MX keys.  It does say that Cherry MX clear are the firmest keys.  Also, MX Grey are used for the "space" key.  Since MX clear seems to be so hard to find, I think I will just stick with trying to get a good used Model M board.  But if I have the opportunity to a board with MX clear keys, I would try it. 

It would be great to try all these different switches in keyboards on the same computer/program and just see which one feels the best.  I'm sure it would vary from person to person.  The guy in this article here says Fry's Electronics has them at the store, but I don't know.

Captain I grew up in Cincy, but I was a west sider near Colerain HS.

http://lifehacker.com/how-to-choose-the-best-mechanical-keyboard-and-why-you-511140347


Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 22:29:35 »
I'm actually not originally from Cincy so I have no idea where Colerain High School is really. But that's still cool. If you ever find yourself back this way let me know ^-^

Offline AKIMbO

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 22:30:23 »
Try a brown alps board.  Those beasts are heavy.
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Offline Endzone

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 07 June 2013, 01:04:27 »
Thanks for that info.  I see another fellow here on this forum says they are heavy. 

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=27223.0


Offline Endzone

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 07 June 2013, 02:12:18 »
Well it looks like the subject of Unicomp vs. IBM Model M has been talked out in several different threads.  I think this is the most recent one.  A few people do say that the Unicomp keys just aren't quite as firm as the Model M.  They seem to be close in firmness but a clear second place.  I think I will lean towards trying to get a decent Model M that doesn't break the bank.  I hate dealing with Ebay people though primarily because their shipping sucks and they always try to maximize their profits by skimping on shipping materials and boxes.  I've received so many things broke from Ebay sellers because stuff wasn't packed right.  I'll try to find a good used Model M for $40 or $50, and if I can't, I'll go the Unicomp Classic route. 

But there is a certain risk with vintage gear too.  The old 1960's, & 1970's, & early 80's stereo gear by Sansui, Kenwood, & Marantz was great gear, but it eventually must have components replaced whether due to failure or to just bring it up to original operating condition. 

Thanks for your input. 

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35071.0


Offline Endzone

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 07 June 2013, 15:36:17 »
Here's what I mean about Ebay sellers not packing stuff right.  I received this keyboard in a used box with a few sheets of newspaper thrown inside, and this is how I got it.  This lady had like a 100% positive rating on Ebay after like 600 transactions.  I was the first guy to give her a negative rating, and she was really pissed.  But anyway, I managed to get it back together and it worked fine.  The date on these pictures is 6-9-2006, so 7 years ago you could buy these for $15 or $20 each on Ebay.  I remember in like 2001 or 2002 they would sell a lot of 10 boards for like $100, so the price of an IBM Model M has really gone up.  Heck, this might be an F here in this picture--I'm not sure. 

I remember when I first typed on one around 1985 at Olsten Temporaries when I took a typing test.  I did a 5 minute test at 75WPM with just one error, and I loved this keyboard ever since.  I had too macho an image of myself to allow myself to work as a typist though--haha. 






Offline rootwyrm

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 07 June 2013, 16:04:51 »
Okay, so since it's been brought up I suppose I should chime in with the clarification on exactly how the Model M buckling spring breaks down.

The thing to remember with a Model M is that the spring is a wearing part. The constant action does have an effect on the metal and does fatigue it over time. This fatigue results in a significantly lighter action then original. (Which is why it still amazes me that these things are good for literally billions of keystrokes. Seriously. I have some with over 2 billion, still work fine.)
Out of the box - as in new - the Model M varies between 75cN and 80cN typical. Usually +-5cN to my recollection. For comparison, the Complicated White ALPS is stated as being 75cN +-25cN. Which is a horribly wide range. The Cherry MX Green is rated at 80cN +-10cN. So yes, the IBM Model M spring is in fact, by the numbers, the stiffest of the lot. It has a narrower range as well and much tighter tolerances.

But as I said: they wear down as a matter of course. This wear results in a lighter actuation feeling and less bounce-back. The end result is that your typical Model M with we'll say 2-3M keystrokes aggregate (all keys) is around 65-75cN on the springs. There's also the fact that the Model M has less sprung weight than a Cherry MX and a longer travel distance. In a Cherry MX switch you have multiple elements riding on top of and interacting with the spring, which is shorter and moves in a straight compression. So from that 80cN on an MX Green you need to subtract switch stem weight and keycap weight, presuming no stabilizer interaction.
The buckling spring does as the name says - it buckles sideways. It also has NO weight other than the keycap itself. There are no interfering elements and the striking element (the foot plate) is assisted by gravity in its quest to strike membrane. This means the spring interaction is much more direct, resulting in a stiffer feeling. The stabilization method also matters more than people realize - an ungreased Teflon slider (white type) versus a greased plastic slider (e.g. black and some blues) on an M feels significantly different. The post stabilization method also means that stabilized keys maintain a more direct spring interaction because the stabilizer does not interact with the spring in any fashion. If you take that post and stick it in a stabilizer slot it will just fall down. There's no upward action from the stabilizers.

So generally speaking when you're on an IBM Model M these days, you're looking at around 70cN direct interaction with no downward force and more direct interaction. On an 80cN Cherry MX you're actually probably looking at somewhere around 70cN as well after adjusting for sprung element weights. (... hm, I wonder if that's why Alps Electric rated the White as +-25cN: to derate for sprung weight. Might be.)

Boy, that turned out long. :D
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Offline wetto

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 07 June 2013, 17:01:31 »
Boy, that turned out long. :D

Well, this wouldn't be a forum for keyboards if we didn't enjoy typing a lot, eh?
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Offline Findecanor

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 07 June 2013, 19:06:51 »
The buckling spring does as the name says - it buckles sideways. It also has NO weight other than the keycap itself. There are no interfering elements and the striking element (the foot plate) is assisted by gravity in its quest to strike membrane. This means the spring interaction is much more direct, resulting in a stiffer feeling.
Gravity's role here is next to insignificant for Model M/M2 foot plates. The plate does not fall, it rolls.

I think that what counts is not just the force required to actuate.
The initial force to get the key moving has a big effect on typing feel.
Linear Cherry MY and Alps require low force starting at just  below 30cN. All Cherry MX switches and Buckling Springs start at around 40 cN. Many rubber domes have very low initial force, while others start quite high. Topre switches (high quality rubber dome) for instance start at around 30-40cN while some rubber domes that have higher peak force start at almost zero.

Then, you should count the entire energy expended (area under the force graph) until you release a key, which is somewhere below the actuation point. How much you press a key depends on when in the stroke you get -- or expect -- feedback, either tactile mid-way, bottoming out, auditory or as characters on the screen ... and your typing style. Some people prefer stiff low-profile scissor switches because the initial force is high but the expended energy is low because the short travel makes up for the high force.
Sometimes it takes you a while to adapt your typing style to a different switch. Typing style is also a factor in why there are so many different opinions about which keyboard switch is the best. :)
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Offline Moosecraft

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Offline Endzone

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 07 June 2013, 19:34:53 »
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Dark_Grey
Was going to suggest these aswell.

Thanks for all the info.  I think a keyboard that was 100% Cherry MX Dark Grey would be a great keyboard for me.  I think it would be similar to that Phillips Pact 220 Teleprinter because it had really stiff linear keys.  I wonder if anyone on the board has a keyboard like this?  I only use my computer for word processing, but I only do about 10 documents per week.  So, I don't think it would wear my hands out like some other guy said.  I'm also on the internet a lot, but there isn't much typing on the internet compared to programming or word processing. 



Offline linziyi

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 07 June 2013, 19:41:40 »
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/incoming.php
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=465

^Was going to post that

But Dark Grey seems to have a bad reputation as many people complain about how bad it actually feels

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Offline Endzone

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 07 June 2013, 19:48:37 »
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/incoming.php
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=465

^Was going to post that

But Dark Grey seems to have a bad reputation as many people complain about how bad it actually feels

I wonder how a linear key could feel bad though except that it is just too stiff?  I think I would probably like it, but I wouldn't really know until I typed on it. 

Keyboard on left in use from about 2002 to 2006 and replaced by keyboard on right purchased on Ebay in June of 2006.  The keyboard did change its feel over the years IMHO.  I gave it alot of use, and I guess some might say abuse. 



Offline PointyFox

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 07 June 2013, 19:49:49 »
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/incoming.php
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=465

^Was going to post that

But Dark Grey seems to have a bad reputation as many people complain about how bad it actually feels



People complain about how bad all key types feel. Is there something actually wrong with them, or are the complainers of the limp-wristed variety?


Offline jabar

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 07 June 2013, 20:30:20 »
Unicomp and Model M keys should be identical in theory.  Since after IBM sold it to Unicomp they just kept the same tooling.  There might be some vintage boards out there that suits your need.

Too bad I'm not an expert in vintage boards.  But out of all the commercial available boards out there right now, you can try either:

Matias Tactile Pro (Clicky ALPS)
MX Green Switches (Heavy Clicky)
MX Clear Switches (Heavy Tactile)
MX Black Switches (Heavy Linear).
MX Dark Grey (Heavier Liner)
MX Super Black (Insane)
Leopold FC660C - Max Keyboard Nighthawk X8 - Ducky DK9008 Shine II 78 Edition - Noppoo Choc Mini - Cherry G80-2100HDD - Cherry G80-8113HDPUS - Plu-M87 - Leopold FC700R Ergo Clears - Deck Legend Frost 105 - IBM F PC Keyboard - IBM M 122 (Lexmark) - Apple Extended Keyboard II

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Offline linziyi

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 07 June 2013, 20:40:58 »
Me myself is also a very heavy typer (I play piano, maybe that's why). From what I read Dark Grey and Green have the same auction force, so I asked which one is heavier http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44343.msg916990#msg916990

I guess I'll settle for green for now and see how it goes, but I fear that only super black will satisfy me :P
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Offline PointyFox

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Re: What keyboard has the firmest keys?
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 07 June 2013, 20:43:18 »
Me myself is also a very heavy typer (I play piano, maybe that's why). From what I read Dark Grey and Green have the same auction force, so I asked which one is heavier http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44343.msg916990#msg916990

I guess I'll settle for green for now and see how it goes, but I fear that only super black will satisfy me :P

You know what they say about that ;)